Things I Have Learned As First Time Buyer/Owner (long)

[MRQB]

Well I learned when doing a pre buy be sure you take it to the avionics shop
and have all the avionics and instruments checked out before you buy my
mistake only thing that was not checked at the pre buy waqs the avionics. I
was more concerned about the engine and airframe. I had the transponder
checked about 3 weeks ago all tested ok Well today while flying in class C
airspace (KPDX) the transponder went out the tower did not like that very
much and was told to depart their airspace ASAP. I landed at the nearest
airport and went to an avionics shop what do you know the transponder
stopped receiving and transmitting at it happens things fail.

The next airplane I buy ill have the avionics checked out in the pre buy
defiantly. Now all my avionics and instruments are now new and or checked
out and working 100% correctly. I have been told that I should contact my
local FSDO about the A&P-IA that signed things off as things were not done
correctly and could have caused major problems. Not sure I want to do that
and not sure what I should do.

The last avionics shop told me my ADF was bad I sent it out to a shop of my
choice it checked out ok no repairs needed. It was my ADF antenna that was
the problem a little scotch bright took care of that. Just a little
corrosion on the wire antenna connection. They also told me my Glide Slope
Was Not fully deflecting and my VOR was off 8 degrees and needed to be
replaced. Retested by another shop and well it is well within factory limits
humm. They set my altimeter settings wrong + 110' on the ground yeiks. Said
my marker beacon receiver was bad and entire audio panel needed replaced
with a new one. Nope it was a $3.00 diode. Now I am wondering if they over
pressurized my pito system and blew my airspeed indicator diaphragm to try
and sell me a new one of them also who knows.

Well 5 hours at the avionics shop today and a rebuilt Transponder, Repaired
3LMB and a new sticker in the log book showing how the problems that the
last shop goofed up on. Now all is fixed and what a joy to fly every things
works very very very well.

I am glad that my transponder went out on me today and forced me to land at
a larger airport to get it fixed. I was kinda questioning in the back of my
mind the business ethics of the last avionics shop, after the ADF came back
from the repair house ok with no problems. I think I will let it go as a
$600.00 lesson learned and steer business away from that avionics shop that
goofed things up and refer to the shop I went to today at leased they have
proper equipment to do it right. They had equipment that looked like it
needed a manual larger than a Linux manual to operate.

I will not mention names until I confront the last avionics shop with my
paperwork showing them that items that they said were defective were not ill
see what they will do about the diagnostic time they charged me.

Lessons learned:

Don't ignore the avionics on a pre buy even if there is not an avionics shop
at the airport you buy it at take it to one get it checked worth the $300.00
in labor you may save you a few thousand.

Don't trust shops that tell you it cannot be fixed and you must replace it
and try and sell you a entire new panel for $10,000 get a second opinion it
may save you a headache and a bunch of money.

Only go to shops that have modern equipment to do the job right ask to see
their equipment and library you may see binders of schematics that's a good
if they will show you bad if they don't have it, You may see a few newer
turbine aircraft in their hanger and higher rates (+$20.00 an hour more than
others but modern $30,000+ test equipment has to be paid for some how) You
may want to pay now or you will be paying pay later. I am an electronics
engineer by trade I am not comfortable paying $80.00 to have a $3.00 part
replaced but way better than paying $1,800 for a new audio panel.

Biggest lesson learned is who not to deal with well worth the $600 I had to
spent today to learn that.

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
MRQB > wrote:
>I think I will let it go as a $600.00 lesson learned

The thing I have learned as a first time buyer/owner: The headaches
associated with owning a plane can easily suck all the joy out of
ownership. Though it goes strongly against my nature I'm slowly learning
to let the little irritations go so that they don't sour my outlook on
flying.

I could list a half dozen little irritations as examples, but that would
set me back on my 12 step "let it go" program. :-)

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Tony Cox]

"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
> Well I learned when doing a pre buy be sure you take it to the avionics
shop
> and have all the avionics and instruments checked out before you buy my
> mistake only thing that was not checked at the pre buy waqs the avionics.
I
> was more concerned about the engine and airframe. I had the transponder
> checked about 3 weeks ago all tested ok Well today while flying in class C
> airspace (KPDX) the transponder went out the tower did not like that very
> much and was told to depart their airspace ASAP. I landed at the nearest
> airport and went to an avionics shop what do you know the transponder
> stopped receiving and transmitting at it happens things fail.
>
> The next airplane I buy ill have the avionics checked out in the pre buy
> defiantly. Now all my avionics and instruments are now new and or checked
> out and working 100% correctly. I have been told that I should contact my
> local FSDO about the A&P-IA that signed things off as things were not done
> correctly and could have caused major problems. Not sure I want to do that
> and not sure what I should do.

Why do you think things were not done correctly? Things do break you
know. Unless you have specific reason to believe the electronics shop
screwed up, I'd leave it.

>
> The last avionics shop told me my ADF was bad I sent it out to a shop of
my
> choice it checked out ok no repairs needed. It was my ADF antenna that was
> the problem a little scotch bright took care of that. Just a little
> corrosion on the wire antenna connection. They also told me my Glide Slope
> Was Not fully deflecting and my VOR was off 8 degrees and needed to be
> replaced. Retested by another shop and well it is well within factory
limits
> humm. They set my altimeter settings wrong + 110' on the ground yeiks.
Said
> my marker beacon receiver was bad and entire audio panel needed replaced
> with a new one. Nope it was a $3.00 diode. Now I am wondering if they over
> pressurized my pito system and blew my airspeed indicator diaphragm to try
> and sell me a new one of them also who knows.

You do seem to have far more problems than most people I know. How
did you pick the shop? Who did other pilots at the airport recommend?

You can test your own VOR you know. It's easy. I check mine every month.

>
> Well 5 hours at the avionics shop today and a rebuilt Transponder,
Repaired
> 3LMB and a new sticker in the log book showing how the problems that the
> last shop goofed up on. Now all is fixed and what a joy to fly every
things
> works very very very well.

Your log book is filling up with gripes about previous shops?

>
> I am glad that my transponder went out on me today and forced me to land
at
> a larger airport to get it fixed. I was kinda questioning in the back of
my
> mind the business ethics of the last avionics shop, after the ADF came
back
> from the repair house ok with no problems. I think I will let it go as a
> $600.00 lesson learned and steer business away from that avionics shop
that
> goofed things up and refer to the shop I went to today at leased they have
> proper equipment to do it right. They had equipment that looked like it
> needed a manual larger than a Linux manual to operate.
>
> I will not mention names until I confront the last avionics shop with my
> paperwork showing them that items that they said were defective were not
ill
> see what they will do about the diagnostic time they charged me.

Aren't you the guy who was threatening to sue an FBO for not
having a specific plane available for you when you wanted it?

Flying is about fun, not confrontation. I suspect you'll end up being
blacklisted yourself if you're not careful. Then what would you do?

>
> Lessons learned:
>
> Don't ignore the avionics on a pre buy even if there is not an avionics
shop
> at the airport you buy it at take it to one get it checked worth the
$300.00
> in labor you may save you a few thousand.
>
> Don't trust shops that tell you it cannot be fixed and you must replace it
> and try and sell you a entire new panel for $10,000 get a second opinion
it
> may save you a headache and a bunch of money.
>
> Only go to shops that have modern equipment to do the job right ask to see
> their equipment and library you may see binders of schematics that's a
good
> if they will show you bad if they don't have it, You may see a few newer
> turbine aircraft in their hanger and higher rates (+$20.00 an hour more
than
> others but modern $30,000+ test equipment has to be paid for some how)
You
> may want to pay now or you will be paying pay later. I am an electronics
> engineer by trade I am not comfortable paying $80.00 to have a $3.00 part
> replaced but way better than paying $1,800 for a new audio panel.
>
> Biggest lesson learned is who not to deal with well worth the $600 I had
to
> spent today to learn that.

It's cheaper to learn who you *should* be dealing with. My mechanic
has guided me to excellent electronics shops and engine repairers. Ask
around & you'll find who to deal with and who to avoid.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Tony Cox wrote:
>
> Why do you think things were not done correctly? Things do break you
> know. Unless you have specific reason to believe the electronics shop
> screwed up, I'd leave it.

Right on. When I picked up my 150, everything was working correctly. Before I got 30
miles away on the trip homw, the NAV radio had gone TU. The COM side died a few
months later.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[Otis Winslow]

Avionics doesn't last forever. It can be working fine one day and go
south the next day. It's not anyone's fault. When an A&P/IA signs
something off it just means it was functioning within specs at the
time they checked it. It's not a guarrantee.



"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
> Well I learned when doing a pre buy be sure you take it to the avionics
shop
> and have all the avionics and instruments checked out before you buy my
> mistake only thing that was not checked at the pre buy waqs the avionics.
I
> was more concerned about the engine and airframe. I had the transponder
> checked about 3 weeks ago all tested ok Well today while flying in class C
> airspace (KPDX) the transponder went out the tower did not like that very
> much and was told to depart their airspace ASAP. I landed at the nearest
> airport and went to an avionics shop what do you know the transponder
> stopped receiving and transmitting at it happens things fail.
>
> The next airplane I buy ill have the avionics checked out in the pre buy
> defiantly. Now all my avionics and instruments are now new and or checked
> out and working 100% correctly. I have been told that I should contact my
> local FSDO about the A&P-IA that signed things off as things were not done
> correctly and could have caused major problems. Not sure I want to do that
> and not sure what I should do.
>
> The last avionics shop told me my ADF was bad I sent it out to a shop of
my
> choice it checked out ok no repairs needed. It was my ADF antenna that was
> the problem a little scotch bright took care of that. Just a little
> corrosion on the wire antenna connection. They also told me my Glide Slope
> Was Not fully deflecting and my VOR was off 8 degrees and needed to be
> replaced. Retested by another shop and well it is well within factory
limits
> humm. They set my altimeter settings wrong + 110' on the ground yeiks.
Said
> my marker beacon receiver was bad and entire audio panel needed replaced
> with a new one. Nope it was a $3.00 diode. Now I am wondering if they over
> pressurized my pito system and blew my airspeed indicator diaphragm to try
> and sell me a new one of them also who knows.
>
> Well 5 hours at the avionics shop today and a rebuilt Transponder,
Repaired
> 3LMB and a new sticker in the log book showing how the problems that the
> last shop goofed up on. Now all is fixed and what a joy to fly every
things
> works very very very well.
>
> I am glad that my transponder went out on me today and forced me to land
at
> a larger airport to get it fixed. I was kinda questioning in the back of
my
> mind the business ethics of the last avionics shop, after the ADF came
back
> from the repair house ok with no problems. I think I will let it go as a
> $600.00 lesson learned and steer business away from that avionics shop
that
> goofed things up and refer to the shop I went to today at leased they have
> proper equipment to do it right. They had equipment that looked like it
> needed a manual larger than a Linux manual to operate.
>
> I will not mention names until I confront the last avionics shop with my
> paperwork showing them that items that they said were defective were not
ill
> see what they will do about the diagnostic time they charged me.
>
> Lessons learned:
>
> Don't ignore the avionics on a pre buy even if there is not an avionics
shop
> at the airport you buy it at take it to one get it checked worth the
$300.00
> in labor you may save you a few thousand.
>
> Don't trust shops that tell you it cannot be fixed and you must replace it
> and try and sell you a entire new panel for $10,000 get a second opinion
it
> may save you a headache and a bunch of money.
>
> Only go to shops that have modern equipment to do the job right ask to see
> their equipment and library you may see binders of schematics that's a
good
> if they will show you bad if they don't have it, You may see a few newer
> turbine aircraft in their hanger and higher rates (+$20.00 an hour more
than
> others but modern $30,000+ test equipment has to be paid for some how)
You
> may want to pay now or you will be paying pay later. I am an electronics
> engineer by trade I am not comfortable paying $80.00 to have a $3.00 part
> replaced but way better than paying $1,800 for a new audio panel.
>
> Biggest lesson learned is who not to deal with well worth the $600 I had
to
> spent today to learn that.
>
>
>
>
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Otis Winslow wrote:
>
> When an A&P/IA signs something off it just means it was functioning within
> specs at the time they checked it.

For that matter, I can't recall any time that an A&P or IA signed off on my avionics.
It's not part of what they check for an annual inspection. The only time anyone has
signed off one of my units was when I took it to an avionics shop for repair or for
some required tests, and that person is not an A&P.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[MRQB]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> "MRQB" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Well I learned when doing a pre buy be sure you take it to the avionics
> shop
> > and have all the avionics and instruments checked out before you buy my
> > mistake only thing that was not checked at the pre buy waqs the
avionics.
> I
> > was more concerned about the engine and airframe. I had the transponder
> > checked about 3 weeks ago all tested ok Well today while flying in class
C
> > airspace (KPDX) the transponder went out the tower did not like that
very
> > much and was told to depart their airspace ASAP. I landed at the nearest
> > airport and went to an avionics shop what do you know the transponder
> > stopped receiving and transmitting at it happens things fail.
> >
> > The next airplane I buy ill have the avionics checked out in the pre buy
> > defiantly. Now all my avionics and instruments are now new and or
checked
> > out and working 100% correctly. I have been told that I should contact
my
> > local FSDO about the A&P-IA that signed things off as things were not
done
> > correctly and could have caused major problems. Not sure I want to do
that
> > and not sure what I should do.
>
> Why do you think things were not done correctly? Things do break you
> know. Unless you have specific reason to believe the electronics shop
> screwed up, I'd leave it.

I am not going to do any thing except for confront the shop about their
unethical business tactics.


>
> >
> > The last avionics shop told me my ADF was bad I sent it out to a shop of
> my
> > choice it checked out ok no repairs needed. It was my ADF antenna that
was
> > the problem a little scotch bright took care of that. Just a little
> > corrosion on the wire antenna connection. They also told me my Glide
Slope
> > Was Not fully deflecting and my VOR was off 8 degrees and needed to be
> > replaced. Retested by another shop and well it is well within factory
> limits
> > humm. They set my altimeter settings wrong + 110' on the ground yeiks.
> Said
> > my marker beacon receiver was bad and entire audio panel needed replaced
> > with a new one. Nope it was a $3.00 diode. Now I am wondering if they
over
> > pressurized my pito system and blew my airspeed indicator diaphragm to
try
> > and sell me a new one of them also who knows.
>
> You do seem to have far more problems than most people I know. How
> did you pick the shop? Who did other pilots at the airport recommend?

Recomendation's from other pilots that i do not know at the local airport

>
> You can test your own VOR you know. It's easy. I check mine every month.
>

Please explain how?

> >
> > Well 5 hours at the avionics shop today and a rebuilt Transponder,
> Repaired
> > 3LMB and a new sticker in the log book showing how the problems that the
> > last shop goofed up on. Now all is fixed and what a joy to fly every
> things
> > works very very very well.
>
> Your log book is filling up with gripes about previous shops?

No gripes about the other shops in the log book just records of things being
done over again the gripes are on the A&P's diagnostic paperwork.



>
> >
> > I am glad that my transponder went out on me today and forced me to land
> at
> > a larger airport to get it fixed. I was kinda questioning in the back of
> my
> > mind the business ethics of the last avionics shop, after the ADF came
> back
> > from the repair house ok with no problems. I think I will let it go as a
> > $600.00 lesson learned and steer business away from that avionics shop
> that
> > goofed things up and refer to the shop I went to today at leased they
have
> > proper equipment to do it right. They had equipment that looked like it
> > needed a manual larger than a Linux manual to operate.
> >
> > I will not mention names until I confront the last avionics shop with my
> > paperwork showing them that items that they said were defective were not
> ill
> > see what they will do about the diagnostic time they charged me.
>
> Aren't you the guy who was threatening to sue an FBO for not
> having a specific plane available for you when you wanted it?
>
> Flying is about fun, not confrontation. I suspect you'll end up being
> blacklisted yourself if you're not careful. Then what would you do?

I am a fair person, the only thing I did was ponder the thought to get pre
paid funds back for unused block time from the FBO as a last resort, we
resolved it by other means that satisfied both of us. But you are probably
the type person that if someone ripped you off for a few hundred dollars or
even thousands you would not confront them. Well I will confront them! maybe
the last avionics shop's testing equipment is out of calibration and don't
know it, it can happen! I know on my equipment for cretin jobs I must have
calibration certificates for my testing equipment. Is it required some ware
in the FAR's for instrument and avionics testing?

>
> >
> > Lessons learned:
> >
> > Don't ignore the avionics on a pre buy even if there is not an avionics
> shop
> > at the airport you buy it at take it to one get it checked worth the
> $300.00
> > in labor you may save you a few thousand.
> >
> > Don't trust shops that tell you it cannot be fixed and you must replace
it
> > and try and sell you a entire new panel for $10,000 get a second opinion
> it
> > may save you a headache and a bunch of money.
> >
> > Only go to shops that have modern equipment to do the job right ask to
see
> > their equipment and library you may see binders of schematics that's a
> good
> > if they will show you bad if they don't have it, You may see a few newer
> > turbine aircraft in their hanger and higher rates (+$20.00 an hour more
> than
> > others but modern $30,000+ test equipment has to be paid for some how)
> You
> > may want to pay now or you will be paying pay later. I am an electronics
> > engineer by trade I am not comfortable paying $80.00 to have a $3.00
part
> > replaced but way better than paying $1,800 for a new audio panel.
> >
> > Biggest lesson learned is who not to deal with well worth the $600 I had
> to
> > spent today to learn that.
>
> It's cheaper to learn who you *should* be dealing with. My mechanic
> has guided me to excellent electronics shops and engine repairers. Ask
> around & you'll find who to deal with and who to avoid.

You live and learn right, I think I found a shop that is highly respected &
fits my service standards but most everyone says they are to expensive not
really if you think about it. "Yes you have a bad part this is the part and
this is why it went out replace part check unit to factory specs as listed
in the factory service manual not from memory problem solved" Seems like
this shop has the proper tools & knowledge to fix things properly. It is
well worth the extra expense rather than have a shop with little knowledge
spend unnecessary hours working on your equipment at lower rates will equal
the same rates or even higher rates.

>
>

[Tony Cox]

"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tony Cox" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > You can test your own VOR you know. It's easy. I check mine every month.
> >
>
> Please explain how?

The AFD has a list of VOR receiver check points which list
the direction and distance over various points on the ground, or
in some cases *on* the ground. Just go there and see what your
VOR/DME says.

There are also VOR test facilities at different airports.

You can also check one VOR against another, if you have two.

Now in my case, I just open my hangar door and there's BLD on
top of the hill just 3.1 miles away. Not everyone is so lucky.

[Tony Cox]

"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
>
> But you are probably
> the type person that if someone ripped you off for a few hundred dollars
or
> even thousands you would not confront them. Well I will confront them!

Not at all. If someone ripped me off I'd be ****ed. But I generally
give people the benefit of the doubt. I get the impression that you
are spoiling for a fight with just about everyone you deal with, so I'm
suggesting to you that you lighten up a bit before shops stop dealing
with *you*.

Most of these places have slim profit margins & word will soon get
around that you are going to be more trouble than the few dollars
they'll be making from you is worth.

> maybe
> the last avionics shop's testing equipment is out of calibration and don't
> know it, it can happen! I know on my equipment for cretin jobs I must have
> calibration certificates for my testing equipment. Is it required some
ware
> in the FAR's for instrument and avionics testing?

Of course. Certified repair shops are highly regulated.

[MRQB]

I am not spoiling for a fight!!! I just don't like being told things are bad
and need to be replaced when they are not and being charged for it if you
took something in for repair and something seemed to be working right and
they told you that is it not working and needed to be replaced and other
things are broken and could not be serviced I bet you would get a second
opinion from another shop before replacing a $1,000 piece of equipment and
that what I did. Seemed like the last shop just wanted to sell me all new
avionics being dishonest to customers is a bad thing.




"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> "MRQB" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > But you are probably
> > the type person that if someone ripped you off for a few hundred dollars
> or
> > even thousands you would not confront them. Well I will confront them!
>
> Not at all. If someone ripped me off I'd be ****ed. But I generally
> give people the benefit of the doubt. I get the impression that you
> are spoiling for a fight with just about everyone you deal with, so I'm
> suggesting to you that you lighten up a bit before shops stop dealing
> with *you*.
>
> Most of these places have slim profit margins & word will soon get
> around that you are going to be more trouble than the few dollars
> they'll be making from you is worth.
>
> > maybe
> > the last avionics shop's testing equipment is out of calibration and
don't
> > know it, it can happen! I know on my equipment for cretin jobs I must
have
> > calibration certificates for my testing equipment. Is it required some
> ware
> > in the FAR's for instrument and avionics testing?
>
> Of course. Certified repair shops are highly regulated.
>
>
>

[Gene Seibel]

(Ben Jackson) wrote in message news:<lDNec.26733$xn4.48438@attbi_s51>...
> In article >,
> MRQB > wrote:
> >I think I will let it go as a $600.00 lesson learned
>
> The thing I have learned as a first time buyer/owner: The headaches
> associated with owning a plane can easily suck all the joy out of
> ownership. Though it goes strongly against my nature I'm slowly learning
> to let the little irritations go so that they don't sour my outlook on
> flying.
>
> I could list a half dozen little irritations as examples, but that would
> set me back on my 12 step "let it go" program. :-)

All of life is that way. Any old airplane will have surprises. After a
few years you get most of them worked out and it gets better. After 24
years of airplane ownership, I wouldn't have it any other way. Maybe
it's because I don't play well with others.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Martin Kosina]

> I am an electronics
> engineer by trade I am not comfortable paying $80.00 to have a $3.00 part
> replaced but way better than paying $1,800 for a new audio panel.

You will save most in airplane ownership if you do initial
troubleshooting yourself. Avionics and A&P shops make most money by
quickly turning around customers, unfortunatelly this is best done by
shot-gun parts swapping as opposed to systematic troubleshooting. Most
people say they want the latter approach, but in the end are not
willing to pay for the time, so its easier to just order a new part,
mark it up a bit, charge for couple hours of labor and you are out the
door. I couldn't afford to own an airplane in such hands-off mode, so
I try to diagnose problems myself, then steer the shop in the general
direction. (Of course there are things I simply don't understand and
have to rely on someone else's expertise, like major engine work, for
example).
Electrical problems can be pesky and beware that most A&Ps don't have
the patience to diagnose them correctly. As an EE, you are probably
more qualified on those types of repairs. It is important to use the
correct mil-spec materials however (wire, terminals, breakers, etc),
if only for the sake of resale condition.

Finally, aviation maintenance on small GA airplanes is not rocket
science, so "Never assume nefarious intent when simple incompetence
suffices as an explanation". (saw this great sig somewhere, author
unknown). Couple bizjets parked in the hangar are not a guarantee of
perfect work either (they do however guarantee higher bill :-)

Good luck, sounds like you have the right overall attitude, you are
right its a learning process. Annuals are another topic I could say "I
learned about flying from that", but that's another discussion...

[Jay Honeck]

> You live and learn right, I think I found a shop that is highly respected
&
> fits my service standards but most everyone says they are to expensive not
> really if you think about it.

The aviation field is incredibly fluid in this regard. Worse, just because
you think you have found the "right" shop for you means nothing when they
change ownership overnight.

My plane was painted by a very reputable paint shop ten years ago -- and the
paint still looks like new. Now, that paint shop is known far and wide as a
rip off shop, because the new owners are making a habit of screwing their
customers.

Things change. Be vigilant. When it comes to spending money, trust no
one -- or be prepared to lose it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"