How common are multiple point failures?

[Michael]

My friend just bought an airplane. He did the prepurchase inspection
himself. That's not as bad as it sounds - he is an A&P/IA and has
owned and restored many airplanes. The plane was an older model light
twin and he got a great deal on it.

On the flight home one of the nav's (the only one with GS), one of the
comm's, the DME, one of the EGT's, and the Mode C all failed. This
was after he completed the inspection and wrote the check. Everything
worked when he started the flight home.

When he bought his last light twin several years ago, he had a similar
streak of failures bringing the plane to his home base for an
inspection. However, that time the owner was with him, and they had
not yet negotiated a price. Once again, everything worked when they
started the trip.

A different friend of mine ferried a light complex single from Texas
to the East Coast. They started the trip with a full IFR panel (dual
nav-coms, DME, ADF, etc) and finished with a single radio and
transponder - everything else had failed enroute.

Do I simply know the wrong people, or have others had the same
experiences?

Michael

[Dude]

You definitely hang with the wrong crowd, and I am happy I have never met
you ;p

But seriously, it would be interesting to know if it was a single electrical
problem behind all or many of these failures. Another possibility would be
one item malfunctioning and cooking the rest in the stack. Did you ever get
more feedback on the diagnosis after the fact, or did they never really know
what happened (sometimes there is no easy way to figure it out).

Lastly, did any of these folks get crosswise with a gypsy, voodoo priest, or
witch?





"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> My friend just bought an airplane. He did the prepurchase inspection
> himself. That's not as bad as it sounds - he is an A&P/IA and has
> owned and restored many airplanes. The plane was an older model light
> twin and he got a great deal on it.
>
> On the flight home one of the nav's (the only one with GS), one of the
> comm's, the DME, one of the EGT's, and the Mode C all failed. This
> was after he completed the inspection and wrote the check. Everything
> worked when he started the flight home.
>
> When he bought his last light twin several years ago, he had a similar
> streak of failures bringing the plane to his home base for an
> inspection. However, that time the owner was with him, and they had
> not yet negotiated a price. Once again, everything worked when they
> started the trip.
>
> A different friend of mine ferried a light complex single from Texas
> to the East Coast. They started the trip with a full IFR panel (dual
> nav-coms, DME, ADF, etc) and finished with a single radio and
> transponder - everything else had failed enroute.
>
> Do I simply know the wrong people, or have others had the same
> experiences?
>
> Michael

[Richard Kaplan]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...

> Do I simply know the wrong people, or have others had the same
> experiences?


I have heard of other stories like this and they have always been in
reference to planes which just changed hands or planes which were known to
have deferred maintenance.

My guess would be that the plane had prior deferred maintenance due to
intermittent electrical/avionics problems.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[Richard Kaplan]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...

> Do I simply know the wrong people, or have others had the same
> experiences?

I would add to this that I have heard enough stories similar to this such
that I am often asked to help a new Cessna 210/T210/P210 owner pick up an
airplane to start a checkout, but I always instead ask that the airplane be
delivered by the former owner. I would not ferry an airplane which has
newly changed hands unless I were in a scheduling position to have enough
time to do so waiting for VFR weather and anticipating potential additional
delays due to enroute repairs.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[Michael]

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote
> I have heard of other stories like this and they have always been in
> reference to planes which just changed hands or planes which were known to
> have deferred maintenance.

I think you've nailed it. In fact, the three cases I know of all
involved the delivery flight after purchse on a 'great deal.' Perhaps
there are no 'great deals' in the used airplane market?

Michael

[Elwood Dowd]

I agree with this completely. Our plane had a multiple-point landing
gear failure a few days after we bought it, and the single factor in all
of it was improper maintenance.

Richard Kaplan wrote:
> I have heard of other stories like this and they have always been in
> reference to planes which just changed hands or planes which were known to
> have deferred maintenance.
>
> My guess would be that the plane had prior deferred maintenance due to
> intermittent electrical/avionics problems.

[H. Adam Stevens]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> My friend just bought an airplane. He did the prepurchase inspection
> himself. That's not as bad as it sounds - he is an A&P/IA and has
> owned and restored many airplanes. The plane was an older model light
> twin and he got a great deal on it.
>
> On the flight home one of the nav's (the only one with GS), one of the
> comm's, the DME, one of the EGT's, and the Mode C all failed. This
> was after he completed the inspection and wrote the check. Everything
> worked when he started the flight home.
>
> When he bought his last light twin several years ago, he had a similar
> streak of failures bringing the plane to his home base for an
> inspection. However, that time the owner was with him, and they had
> not yet negotiated a price. Once again, everything worked when they
> started the trip.
>
> A different friend of mine ferried a light complex single from Texas
> to the East Coast. They started the trip with a full IFR panel (dual
> nav-coms, DME, ADF, etc) and finished with a single radio and
> transponder - everything else had failed enroute.
>
> Do I simply know the wrong people, or have others had the same
> experiences?
>
> Michael

A few years back I was going from Wichita to Richmond in my P Baron.
Motoring along at FL 230 I was picking up intermittent ice at night.
Simultaneously, the stall horn went off and the autopilot quit.
The stall switch failed and a circuit breaker wire came loose.
Two uncorrelated, simultaneous failures.
It does happen.
H.

[Richard Kaplan]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...

> I think you've nailed it. In fact, the three cases I know of all
> involved the delivery flight after purchse on a 'great deal.' Perhaps
> there are no 'great deals' in the used airplane market?

Correct... Rationally thinking there never should be a "great deal" in a
used airplane market -- at least for an airworthy airplane. Great deals in
other markets (i.e. real estate) generally occur due to local abberations in
supply and demand. An airworthy airplane is the ULTIMATE mobile asset and
thus its price should be determined on a much more broad geographic market.

The only reason I can consider for an airplane to sell below its market
value would be if the seller needs to sell it quickly. With interest rates
as low as they are, it clearly makes sense to hold an airplane for 3-6
months if necessary to get its market value. The only real reason to sell
below market value would be if the owner is so leveraged that he can no
longer hold that loan on the airplane --> if that is the case, then the odds
are extremely high that he also has not been in an economic position to
properly maintain the airplane.

So as I see it, there is no reason to get a "good deal" on an airworthy
airplane sold in an arms-length transaction. The only "good deal" would be
for an unairworthy/project airplane or a transaction among friends rather
than on the open market.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[Richard Kaplan]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...

> involved the delivery flight after purchse on a 'great deal.' Perhaps
> there are no 'great deals' in the used airplane market?


Correct... Rationally thinking there never should be a "great deal" in a
used airplane market -- at least for an airworthy airplane. Great deals in
other markets (i.e. real estate) generally occur due to local abberations in
supply and demand. An airworthy airplane is the ULTIMATE mobile asset and
thus its price should be determined on a much more broad geographic market.

The only reason I can consider for an airplane to sell below its market
value would be if the seller needs to sell it quickly. With interest rates
as low as they are, it clearly makes sense to hold an airplane for 3-6
months if necessary to get its market value. The only real reason to sell
below market value would be if the owner is so leveraged that he can no
longer hold that loan on the airplane --> if that is the case, then the odds
are extremely high that he also has not been in an economic position to
properly maintain the airplane.

So as I see it, there is no reason to get a "good deal" on an airworthy
airplane sold in an arms-length transaction. The only "good deal" would be
for an unairworthy/project airplane or a transaction among friends rather
than on the open market.


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[Michael]

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote
> The only reason I can consider for an airplane to sell below its market
> value would be if the seller needs to sell it quickly.

Bingo. That's the case with the last such incident I had in mind.

> The only real reason to sell
> below market value would be if the owner is so leveraged that he can no
> longer hold that loan on the airplane

Right again.

> if that is the case, then the odds
> are extremely high that he also has not been in an economic position to
> properly maintain the airplane.

Which is what I told the buyer. He inspected the airplane (half a day
for a twin of make and model he has never owned or maintained) and
pronounced it to be in good shape. The failures occurred as he flew
it home.

Michael