Anyone keeping a fabric plane in the open?

[Malcolm Teas]

Ok, I know the received wisdom that a fabric plane shouldn't be kept
in the open and should always be hangared.

But, I started to question this after noticing several fabric planes
in the open at my home airport. They look in better shape than the
metal winged planes sometimes. I also know that the newer fabrics
(Ceconite and others) last much longer than the old cotton. And that
UV resistants in paint help more.

Anyone really doing this? What are the results on your plane? Any
A&Ps seen results from outside fabric?

Thanks,
-Malcolm Teas

[Dale]

In article >,
(Malcolm Teas) wrote:

> Ok, I know the received wisdom that a fabric plane shouldn't be kept
> in the open and should always be hangared.
>
> But, I started to question this after noticing several fabric planes
> in the open at my home airport. They look in better shape than the
> metal winged planes sometimes. I also know that the newer fabrics
> (Ceconite and others) last much longer than the old cotton. And that
> UV resistants in paint help more.
>
> Anyone really doing this? What are the results on your plane? Any
> A&Ps seen results from outside fabric?

There are very few hangars available here in Anchorage....however there
are scores of fabric airplanes sitting out in the weather all year long.
Doesn't seem to be a big problem.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[zatatime]

On 21 May 2004 07:42:56 -0700, (Malcolm Teas)
wrote:

>Ok, I know the received wisdom that a fabric plane shouldn't be kept
>in the open and should always be hangared.
>
>But, I started to question this after noticing several fabric planes
>in the open at my home airport. They look in better shape than the
>metal winged planes sometimes. I also know that the newer fabrics
>(Ceconite and others) last much longer than the old cotton. And that
>UV resistants in paint help more.
>
>Anyone really doing this? What are the results on your plane? Any
>A&Ps seen results from outside fabric?
>
>Thanks,
>-Malcolm Teas


The new processes definately work better than when cotton was used.
From experience I can say that the "Ceconite" process (using nitrate
and buterate) does not last as long as the "Stits" process. I'd
estimate that with Ceconite you'd get about 10-12 years out of a
fabric job if its kept outside 24/7/365. I've seen airplanes done
with Stits that are 10 years old and look brand new.

The amount of life you get will also depend on how sunny your climate
is, etc...

Just to be clear the actual fabric used is the same for each process.
How the fabric is treated is where the differences come into play.

HTH.
z

[Gene Seibel]

(Malcolm Teas) wrote in message >...
> Ok, I know the received wisdom that a fabric plane shouldn't be kept
> in the open and should always be hangared.
>
> But, I started to question this after noticing several fabric planes
> in the open at my home airport. They look in better shape than the
> metal winged planes sometimes. I also know that the newer fabrics
> (Ceconite and others) last much longer than the old cotton. And that
> UV resistants in paint help more.
>
> Anyone really doing this? What are the results on your plane? Any
> A&Ps seen results from outside fabric?
>
> Thanks,
> -Malcolm Teas

My Tri-Pacer sat outside for the first 16 years I owned it as well as
6 years before that. Fabric was replaced at 22 or 23 years. Most of
that time it was in New Mexico where moisture was low and sunlight was
intense.

--
Gene Seibel
Tri-Pacer - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane2.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[Rob McDonald]

Modern fabrics are very durable, althought the finishes vary. Depending
upon your climate, I would be more concerned about the potential for
rusting of structural tubing if water gets in. Also sunlight can really do
a lot of damage to the interior. A good set of covers might be a good
investment if you are going to store outside.

The final condition of my Champ purchase a few years back was that I had to
be able to locate hangar space. I wouldn't keep any plane outside, but
hangar rental here is reasonable (in airplane dollars :-) ... however, I
have seen hangar rental rates quoted for some markets (usually near large
US cities) that must exceed the increased depreciation resulting from
outdoor storage.

Rob

(Malcolm Teas) wrote in
om:

> Ok, I know the received wisdom that a fabric plane shouldn't be kept
> in the open and should always be hangared.
>
> But, I started to question this after noticing several fabric planes
> in the open at my home airport. They look in better shape than the
> metal winged planes sometimes. I also know that the newer fabrics
> (Ceconite and others) last much longer than the old cotton. And that
> UV resistants in paint help more.
>
> Anyone really doing this? What are the results on your plane? Any
> A&Ps seen results from outside fabric?
>
> Thanks,
> -Malcolm Teas



--

[G.R. Patterson III]

Malcolm Teas wrote:
>
> Anyone really doing this? What are the results on your plane? Any
> A&Ps seen results from outside fabric?

I've had my Maule outside since I bought it in 1995. Since Maule did not paint
aircraft properly back then, it really isn't a fair test case. I've had to repair one
crack in the fabric caused by a run in the paint and repair a popped tape in the
fabric caused by the fact that Maule used enamel for the finish coats on top of the
silver layer.

Ceconite and Polyfiber (which are the same fabric but different application methods)
both last pretty much forever outside.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Malcolm Teas]

(Malcolm Teas) wrote in message >...
>...But, I started to question this after noticing several fabric
planes
> in the open at my home airport. ...

Ok, so outside in Alaska, a Maule outside since 1995, a Pacer outside
for 16 years. Sounds good!

But the finishes vary. How do they vary: Stits is better than
Ceconite, but why? Better UV protection or just better resistance to
the weather in general?

Also, any good recomendations for covers? I'd like to cover my whole
prospective plane when I find it.

Thanks,
-Malcolm Teas

[dave]

I bought my citabria last september. It was recovered, ceconite, 11
years ago. It has been outside, Philadelphia area, since then. The red
paint has faded from the sun. The underside of things hasn't faded at
all. I tried a fairly mild polishing compound on it but for the most
part that wasn't very helpful. I guess the polish really can't dig in
because the fabric flexes too much. On the leading edges, which are
rigid, however it worked well. I was going to try 1000 grit paper but a
fabric guy told me that they could try a rejuvinator on it. I don't
know what that is exactly but I understand it's a type of paint thinner
or dope. I'm taking it in for a small patch over a rivet next month so
I'll learn more then.

No question that a good hanger will help. I've heard that a damp hanger
can be worse than outdoor tiedowns.

Dave
68 7ECA

Malcolm Teas wrote:
> Ok, I know the received wisdom that a fabric plane shouldn't be kept
> in the open and should always be hangared.
>
> But, I started to question this after noticing several fabric planes
> in the open at my home airport. They look in better shape than the
> metal winged planes sometimes. I also know that the newer fabrics
> (Ceconite and others) last much longer than the old cotton. And that
> UV resistants in paint help more.
>
> Anyone really doing this? What are the results on your plane? Any
> A&Ps seen results from outside fabric?
>
> Thanks,
> -Malcolm Teas

[G.R. Patterson III]

Malcolm Teas wrote:
>
> But the finishes vary. How do they vary: Stits is better than
> Ceconite, but why?

Stits is also called Polyfiber. Ceconite and Polyfiber are the same fabric, made in
the same plant, on the same looms, by the same manufacturer. There is absolutely no
difference. The methods of application and the finishes used differ, however. The
Ceconite method is to glue the fabric on with a Randolph product, then shrink it with
heat, and then use other Randolph products to finish it through the silver coat. The
Stits method does not specify the brand of the finish. I'm not sure if it uses heat
to shrink the fabric either.

The Randolph company was just purchased by the company that makes Ceconite and
Polyfiber. It will be interesting to see what effect this has on the published
covering methods.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[G.R. Patterson III]

dave wrote:
>
> I was going to try 1000 grit paper but a
> fabric guy told me that they could try a rejuvinator on it.

Rejuvenator is a solvent that softens butyrate dope.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Dan Thomas]

Fabric suffers from UV more than anything. I've seen some
factory-covered airplanes that have almost no UV blocker, and you can
see daylight through the fabric while crawling around in the fuselage
or snooping through acces holes in the wings. It shoud be completely
dark in there; no UV or visible light.
Stits finishes are PVC (polyvinyl chloride), except for their
urethane finishes which are tough and shiny and a whole lot harder to
repair. Both weather well. Other urethane finishes are available but
many don't have the flexibility for fabric; they're intended for solid
surfaces and will eventually start cracking as the fabric flexes.
BTDT. Tires suffer from UV and ozone in the air.
Dark finishes result in more solar heating of the fabric, which
embrittles and weakens it over time. It can, in extreme cases, cause
further shrinkage of the fabric and crushing of airframe structure.
Water from rain, snow or condensation can get into the structure
and cause corrosion. In our climate, the winter snow can be very fine
and dry like dust, and gets into everything during a blizzard. Of
course, such fine stuff has little moisture in it and it can evaporate
(sublimate) when the sun comes out again. And then there's hail and
wind. I've seen some perfectly good airplanes damaged by wind, even
though they're still tied down. Control surfaces and stops beat up,
cables stretched, paint and plexiglass eroded by flying sand. Covers
are great but if the dust gets under them, you now have sandpaper
working on it. Dust gets inside the airplane, too. Adds weight and
clogs things up.
Dogs pee on props left poistioned vertically; saw one that had
holes eaten through it while it had sat through generations of canine
visitors. (Another reason to fly taildraggers!)
Biggest hassle with outdoor storage is probably the birds and
mice and their nests and poop and the resulting corrosion. They can
find ways into almost any airplane. Mothballs keep them out. Might
keep some of your passengers out, too. Everything's a tradeoff.

Dan

[bubba]

The fabric will last forever if the sun doesn't get to it!
If the topcoat doesn't comprimized there should be no problems.
After time the dope looses its flexability and cracks, which lets the
light get to the fabric.
If the dope is rejuvenated, it puts the flexability back into the dope
and your good to go. It's like putting a new coat of dope on the airplane.
It's all a game on keeping the UV away from the fabric which means that
the topcoat needs to be attended to to keep that from happening.
Fabric aircraft are absolutly great, they just have different care
instructions than spam can aircraft.

Cheers
Dave


Dan Thomas wrote:
> Fabric suffers from UV more than anything. I've seen some
> factory-covered airplanes that have almost no UV blocker, and you can
> see daylight through the fabric while crawling around in the fuselage
> or snooping through acces holes in the wings. It shoud be completely
> dark in there; no UV or visible light.
> Stits finishes are PVC (polyvinyl chloride), except for their
> urethane finishes which are tough and shiny and a whole lot harder to
> repair. Both weather well. Other urethane finishes are available but
> many don't have the flexibility for fabric; they're intended for solid
> surfaces and will eventually start cracking as the fabric flexes.
> BTDT. Tires suffer from UV and ozone in the air.
> Dark finishes result in more solar heating of the fabric, which
> embrittles and weakens it over time. It can, in extreme cases, cause
> further shrinkage of the fabric and crushing of airframe structure.
> Water from rain, snow or condensation can get into the structure
> and cause corrosion. In our climate, the winter snow can be very fine
> and dry like dust, and gets into everything during a blizzard. Of
> course, such fine stuff has little moisture in it and it can evaporate
> (sublimate) when the sun comes out again. And then there's hail and
> wind. I've seen some perfectly good airplanes damaged by wind, even
> though they're still tied down. Control surfaces and stops beat up,
> cables stretched, paint and plexiglass eroded by flying sand. Covers
> are great but if the dust gets under them, you now have sandpaper
> working on it. Dust gets inside the airplane, too. Adds weight and
> clogs things up.
> Dogs pee on props left poistioned vertically; saw one that had
> holes eaten through it while it had sat through generations of canine
> visitors. (Another reason to fly taildraggers!)
> Biggest hassle with outdoor storage is probably the birds and
> mice and their nests and poop and the resulting corrosion. They can
> find ways into almost any airplane. Mothballs keep them out. Might
> keep some of your passengers out, too. Everything's a tradeoff.
>
> Dan

[Malcolm Teas]

(Dan Thomas) wrote in message >...
> Fabric suffers from UV more than anything. I've seen some
> factory-covered airplanes that have almost no UV blocker, and you can
> see daylight through the fabric while crawling around in the fuselage
> or snooping through acces holes in the wings. It shoud be completely
> dark in there; no UV or visible light....

Sounds like a cover for the whole plane would be a good thing. Let
the cheaper cover take the UV and protect the wings & fuselage.

And thanks for givine me something else to check on used planes too...

-Malcolm Teas

[jls]

"Dan Thomas" > wrote in message
om...
> Fabric suffers from UV more than anything. I've seen some
> factory-covered airplanes that have almost no UV blocker, and you can
> see daylight through the fabric while crawling around in the fuselage
> or snooping through acces holes in the wings. It shoud be completely
> dark in there; no UV or visible light.

Well, I think you're correct with regard to Stits or Polyfiber. But
doesn't one or two of the polyester aircraft covering systems claim to
filter out UV rays, allowing the visible infrared rays to go on through?

> Stits finishes are PVC (polyvinyl chloride), except for their
> urethane finishes which are tough and shiny and a whole lot harder to
> repair. Both weather well. Other urethane finishes are available but
> many don't have the flexibility for fabric; they're intended for solid
> surfaces and will eventually start cracking as the fabric flexes.
> BTDT. Tires suffer from UV and ozone in the air.
> Dark finishes result in more solar heating of the fabric, which
> embrittles and weakens it over time. It can, in extreme cases, cause
> further shrinkage of the fabric and crushing of airframe structure.
> Water from rain, snow or condensation can get into the structure
> and cause corrosion. In our climate, the winter snow can be very fine
> and dry like dust, and gets into everything during a blizzard. Of
> course, such fine stuff has little moisture in it and it can evaporate
> (sublimate) when the sun comes out again. And then there's hail and
> wind. I've seen some perfectly good airplanes damaged by wind, even
> though they're still tied down. Control surfaces and stops beat up,
> cables stretched, paint and plexiglass eroded by flying sand. Covers
> are great but if the dust gets under them, you now have sandpaper
> working on it. Dust gets inside the airplane, too. Adds weight and
> clogs things up.
> Dogs pee on props left poistioned vertically; saw one that had
> holes eaten through it while it had sat through generations of canine
> visitors. (Another reason to fly taildraggers!)
> Biggest hassle with outdoor storage is probably the birds and
> mice and their nests and poop and the resulting corrosion. They can
> find ways into almost any airplane. Mothballs keep them out. Might
> keep some of your passengers out, too. Everything's a tradeoff.
>
> Dan

Excellent information. Thanks.

[dave]

Thanks George. I don't think I'll have that done when a get that little
patch next month but the annual is just around the corner. We'll see.
Dave
68 7ECA

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>
> dave wrote:
>
>>I was going to try 1000 grit paper but a
>>fabric guy told me that they could try a rejuvinator on it.
>
>
> Rejuvenator is a solvent that softens butyrate dope.
>
> George Patterson
> I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.