Survey: which business

[Scott Benger]

What kind of business are you in and how do you use your owned
airplane for business as a productivity tool (not just a tax
write-off)? There have been plenty of discussions on this group about
tax issues, but few on the use of an airplane to make a business more
successful.

Me? Unfortuanately my accounting work has no business need for an
airplane (yet?).

[Jay Honeck]

> What kind of business are you in and how do you use your owned
> airplane for business as a productivity tool (not just a tax
> write-off)? There have been plenty of discussions on this group about
> tax issues, but few on the use of an airplane to make a business more
> successful.

Biz: An aviation-theme, luxury suites, fly-in hotel!

How used: Everywhere we fly we carry promotional materials, signs, flyers,
brochures, discount coupons -- you name it. Every airport and FBO manager
gets hit with "the Message" everywhere we go!

The airplane is just about the only tool I can think of that allows us to
personally contact our target market.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Elwood Dowd]

Do you have any clients in areas not serviced by the airlines? Could
you go out and get some?


> Me? Unfortuanately my accounting work has no business need for an
> airplane (yet?).

[Dude]

I had no business use for my plane, so I went with a leaseback to make it a
business in itself.

You could use it to go to seminars, and you could use it to meet with
distant clients. You may have to go out of your way to have out of city
clients, but it is worth it.

If still in doubt, get a hold of advocate tax or a similar expert for more
advice.





"Scott Benger" > wrote in message
...
> What kind of business are you in and how do you use your owned
> airplane for business as a productivity tool (not just a tax
> write-off)? There have been plenty of discussions on this group about
> tax issues, but few on the use of an airplane to make a business more
> successful.
>
> Me? Unfortuanately my accounting work has no business need for an
> airplane (yet?).
>

[Jeff]

I have no business use for my airplane, its a personal expense :(


Scott Benger wrote:

> What kind of business are you in and how do you use your owned
> airplane for business as a productivity tool (not just a tax
> write-off)? There have been plenty of discussions on this group about
> tax issues, but few on the use of an airplane to make a business more
> successful.
>
> Me? Unfortuanately my accounting work has no business need for an
> airplane (yet?).

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Scott Benger" > wrote in message
...
> What kind of business are you in and how do you use your owned
> airplane for business as a productivity tool (not just a tax
> write-off)?

Multi-faceted. Commercial real estate development, custom home builders,
equipment refubishers/exporters, commercial property managers.

We fly engineers and project managers to site and workups with
sub-contractors, site surveys. We also fly a sles team out to do
"dog-and-pony" shows.

We stick to places off the beaten track as our competition is MUCH less and
even the national companies still stick primarily to the airlines.

> There have been plenty of discussions on this group about
> tax issues, but few on the use of an airplane to make a business more
> successful.

Our five partners (three full and two limited) were able to expand outside
our two offices (Phoenix and Denver/Colorado Springs) and now we do business
all over the west except California.

Several years ago when I first worked for them in the late 70's and 80's, (I
just went back to work for them after a 13 year hiatus) they were in the
cattle export business and buying herds all over the place but actually
going out and inspecting the herds rather than just handling the paperwork.

> Me? Unfortuanately my accounting work has no business need for an
> airplane (yet?).

Is your work specialized such that you would not have a lot of local
competition if you could get to remote customers?

[Smutny]

My current business has no need for travel other than annual
conventions. However, I'm looking at puchasing a company that writes
software for municipalities, so I see a definate possibility of using
a plane to visit cities around the state.

One question I have that I don't recall ever seeing discussed here...

When you purchase a plane for business use, can it be a homebuilt?
For instance, a RV-6/7 would be an ideal platform for buzzing around
the state visiting customers. To get similar performance out of a
production airplane I'd be looking at well over twice the cost.

-j-

On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:58:33 GMT, Scott Benger
> wrote:

>What kind of business are you in and how do you use your owned
>airplane for business as a productivity tool (not just a tax
>write-off)? There have been plenty of discussions on this group about
>tax issues, but few on the use of an airplane to make a business more
>successful.
>
>Me? Unfortuanately my accounting work has no business need for an
>airplane (yet?).

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Smutny" > wrote in message
...
>
> My current business has no need for travel other than annual
> conventions. However, I'm looking at puchasing a company that writes
> software for municipalities, so I see a definate possibility of using
> a plane to visit cities around the state.

How about around the region?

>
> One question I have that I don't recall ever seeing discussed here...
>
> When you purchase a plane for business use, can it be a homebuilt?

It can be whatever you want, though the IRS might look askew at you when you
put stuff on your tax return.

> For instance, a RV-6/7 would be an ideal platform for buzzing around
> the state visiting customers.

And limiting your business too much.

> To get similar performance out of a
> production airplane I'd be looking at well over twice the cost.

How's it's reliability? Are you willing to cancel appointments? Critical
ones, such as closure meetings?

Sounds like (I maybe wrong) you're fitting your business to match your
aircraft whims, rather than your aircraft SPECS to match your business
needs.

[Smutny]

On Tue, 25 May 2004 06:14:55 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>
>"Smutny" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> My current business has no need for travel other than annual
>> conventions. However, I'm looking at puchasing a company that writes
>> software for municipalities, so I see a definate possibility of using
>> a plane to visit cities around the state.
>
>How about around the region?
>

Yes, there are some neighboring states that have a right structure
that make them possible customers. But I'd be speaking out of turn to
say that they're a definate market without more research.

>>
>> One question I have that I don't recall ever seeing discussed here...
>>
>> When you purchase a plane for business use, can it be a homebuilt?
>
>It can be whatever you want, though the IRS might look askew at you when you
>put stuff on your tax return.

I suppose the IRS has some documentation one what they want. Anyone
know the document numbers?

>
>> For instance, a RV-6/7 would be an ideal platform for buzzing around
>> the state visiting customers.
>
>And limiting your business too much.

An RV has the performace to easily reach out to the region.

>
>> To get similar performance out of a
>> production airplane I'd be looking at well over twice the cost.
>
>How's it's reliability? Are you willing to cancel appointments? Critical
>ones, such as closure meetings?
>
>Sounds like (I maybe wrong) you're fitting your business to match your
>aircraft whims, rather than your aircraft SPECS to match your business
>needs.
>

Not really. The business is established and ripe for expansion. Yes
I do have a real soft spot for the RV series. However; to get the
same speed and range, one would have to look at a SR20 or retract
single. Even an older 182RG costs (initial and maintenance) are well
above a RV.

As far as reliablity, spending the time to find a well built example,
and utilizing the expertise of a trusted builder to help with the
purchase, I have no doubt that reliability will meet or exceed a
production single.

I own a homebuilt now, and it is has be the most reliable airplane
I've ever flown.

-j-

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Smutny" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> >> My current business has no need for travel other than annual
> >> conventions. However, I'm looking at puchasing a company that writes
> >> software for municipalities, so I see a definate possibility of using
> >> a plane to visit cities around the state.
> >
> >How about around the region?
> >
>
> Yes, there are some neighboring states that have a right structure
> that make them possible customers. But I'd be speaking out of turn to
> say that they're a definate market without more research.
>
> >>
> >> One question I have that I don't recall ever seeing discussed here...
> >>
> >> When you purchase a plane for business use, can it be a homebuilt?
> >
> >It can be whatever you want, though the IRS might look askew at you when
you
> >put stuff on your tax return.
>
> I suppose the IRS has some documentation one what they want. Anyone
> know the document numbers?
>
> >
> >> For instance, a RV-6/7 would be an ideal platform for buzzing around
> >> the state visiting customers.
> >
> >And limiting your business too much.
>
> An RV has the performace to easily reach out to the region.
>
> >
> >> To get similar performance out of a
> >> production airplane I'd be looking at well over twice the cost.
> >
> >How's it's reliability? Are you willing to cancel appointments? Critical
> >ones, such as closure meetings?
> >
> >Sounds like (I maybe wrong) you're fitting your business to match your
> >aircraft whims, rather than your aircraft SPECS to match your business
> >needs.
> >
>
> Not really. The business is established and ripe for expansion. Yes
> I do have a real soft spot for the RV series. However; to get the
> same speed and range, one would have to look at a SR20 or retract
> single. Even an older 182RG costs (initial and maintenance) are well
> above a RV.
>
> As far as reliablity, spending the time to find a well built example,
> and utilizing the expertise of a trusted builder to help with the
> purchase, I have no doubt that reliability will meet or exceed a
> production single.
>
> I own a homebuilt now, and it is has be the most reliable airplane
> I've ever flown.

Well, I guess there's a first time for everything. :~)

Sounds, though, like you're trying to justify a decision you've already
made.

[Smutny]

On Tue, 25 May 2004 19:48:08 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

<snip>
>
>Well, I guess there's a first time for everything. :~)
>
>Sounds, though, like you're trying to justify a decision you've already
>made.
>

Dude, I haven't made any decision, I'm just keeping an open mind.
The RV series offers an incredible 'bang for the buck'.

If the IRS frowns on homebuilts, or if there is a production a/c with
similar performance at a similar value, I'd definately consider it for
this role. For both business and personal travel.

But I don't see a 200kt, IFR capable, 600# useful load, 800 mile range
a/c being produced for around $100,000. The Cirrus SR20 comes closest
at $200,000+.

-j-

[Nathan Young]

On Tue, 25 May 2004 13:38:50 GMT, Smutny >
wrote:

>On Tue, 25 May 2004 06:14:55 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
>wrote:
>
>>
>>"Smutny" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> My current business has no need for travel other than annual
>>> conventions. However, I'm looking at puchasing a company that writes
>>> software for municipalities, so I see a definate possibility of using
>>> a plane to visit cities around the state.
>>
>>How about around the region?
>>
>
>Yes, there are some neighboring states that have a right structure
>that make them possible customers. But I'd be speaking out of turn to
>say that they're a definate market without more research.
>
>>>
>>> One question I have that I don't recall ever seeing discussed here...
>>>
>>> When you purchase a plane for business use, can it be a homebuilt?
>>
>>It can be whatever you want, though the IRS might look askew at you when you
>>put stuff on your tax return.
>
>I suppose the IRS has some documentation one what they want. Anyone
>know the document numbers?
>
>>
>>> For instance, a RV-6/7 would be an ideal platform for buzzing around
>>> the state visiting customers.
>>
>>And limiting your business too much.
>
>An RV has the performace to easily reach out to the region.
>
>>
>>> To get similar performance out of a
>>> production airplane I'd be looking at well over twice the cost.
>>
>>How's it's reliability? Are you willing to cancel appointments? Critical
>>ones, such as closure meetings?
>>
>>Sounds like (I maybe wrong) you're fitting your business to match your
>>aircraft whims, rather than your aircraft SPECS to match your business
>>needs.
>>
>
>Not really. The business is established and ripe for expansion. Yes
>I do have a real soft spot for the RV series. However; to get the
>same speed and range, one would have to look at a SR20 or retract
>single. Even an older 182RG costs (initial and maintenance) are well
>above a RV.
>
>As far as reliablity, spending the time to find a well built example,
>and utilizing the expertise of a trusted builder to help with the
>purchase, I have no doubt that reliability will meet or exceed a
>production single.
>
>I own a homebuilt now, and it is has be the most reliable airplane
>I've ever flown.

I've never flown in an RV, so I have to ask this question: Do they
have sufficient baggage area to use effectively for business? Sure
most of us only require a suitcase, laptop, and projector these
days... I just imagine stuffing more than that in an RV would be
difficult.

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 01:54:13 GMT, Smutny >
wrote:

>On Tue, 25 May 2004 19:48:08 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
>wrote:
>
><snip>
>>
>>Well, I guess there's a first time for everything. :~)
>>
>>Sounds, though, like you're trying to justify a decision you've already
>>made.
>>
>
>Dude, I haven't made any decision, I'm just keeping an open mind.
>The RV series offers an incredible 'bang for the buck'.
>
>If the IRS frowns on homebuilts, or if there is a production a/c with
>similar performance at a similar value, I'd definately consider it for
>this role. For both business and personal travel.
>
>But I don't see a 200kt, IFR capable, 600# useful load, 800 mile range
>a/c being produced for around $100,000. The Cirrus SR20 comes closest
>at $200,000+.

If the homebuilt path doesn't pan out, or if you would rather buy than
build, an older Mooney 201 will meet your price target, but fall a
small amount short on speed (the 201 is 201mph). A Mooney 231 meets
all of your requirements, but average cost is more like $125k...
There are 231s with runout engines for sale for $100k however.

-Nathan

[Bob Martin]

> I've never flown in an RV, so I have to ask this question: Do they
> have sufficient baggage area to use effectively for business? Sure
> most of us only require a suitcase, laptop, and projector these
> days... I just imagine stuffing more than that in an RV would be
> difficult.


The baggage area is a pretty good size; you could get more than that
inside it. Maybe two suitcases if they aren't too big, or definately
2-3 duffel bags, a tent, and your laptop. And if you don't have to
take a passenger along, you can remove the seat back and lay things
down in there too. Some guys have even made modifications to the aft
bulkhead (extending the baggage compartment some more) so they can
carry their golf clubs with them. But yes, the things you mentioned
above would fit comfortably, at least in a 6/7/9. The 10 has even
more room, being a 4-seater and all.

I know a guy that used to use his -6A for business; he was a state
representative and used it to fly from his home district to our
airport near the state capitol.

As far as costs, an RV-6/7 would run about 45-50k to build yourself.
Not sure what they go for completed. If you build it yourself, you
can do your own annuals, and I'm not sure how much of the maintenance
you can do if you aren't the "primary builder."

[Smutny]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 13:37:46 GMT, Nathan Young
> wrote:

>On Thu, 27 May 2004 01:54:13 GMT, Smutny >
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 25 May 2004 19:48:08 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
>>wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>>
>>>Well, I guess there's a first time for everything. :~)
>>>
>>>Sounds, though, like you're trying to justify a decision you've already
>>>made.
>>>
>>
>>Dude, I haven't made any decision, I'm just keeping an open mind.
>>The RV series offers an incredible 'bang for the buck'.
>>
>>If the IRS frowns on homebuilts, or if there is a production a/c with
>>similar performance at a similar value, I'd definately consider it for
>>this role. For both business and personal travel.
>>
>>But I don't see a 200kt, IFR capable, 600# useful load, 800 mile range
>>a/c being produced for around $100,000. The Cirrus SR20 comes closest
>>at $200,000+.
>
>If the homebuilt path doesn't pan out, or if you would rather buy than
>build, an older Mooney 201 will meet your price target, but fall a
>small amount short on speed (the 201 is 201mph). A Mooney 231 meets
>all of your requirements, but average cost is more like $125k...
>There are 231s with runout engines for sale for $100k however.
>
>-Nathan

I've thought of Mooney's and flown a friend's M20E. There are a
couple things about the Mooney that keeps it from the top of my list.

Too cramped for me and only one door top the list. At this stage I
also would like to stay away from retracts from the simple point of
more systems = more possible points of failure.

-j-

[Smutny]

On Thu, 27 May 2004 13:32:46 GMT, Nathan Young
> wrote:

>On Tue, 25 May 2004 13:38:50 GMT, Smutny >
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 25 May 2004 06:14:55 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Smutny" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>> My current business has no need for travel other than annual
>>>> conventions. However, I'm looking at puchasing a company that writes
>>>> software for municipalities, so I see a definate possibility of using
>>>> a plane to visit cities around the state.
>>>
>>>How about around the region?
>>>
>>
>>Yes, there are some neighboring states that have a right structure
>>that make them possible customers. But I'd be speaking out of turn to
>>say that they're a definate market without more research.
>>
>>>>
>>>> One question I have that I don't recall ever seeing discussed here...
>>>>
>>>> When you purchase a plane for business use, can it be a homebuilt?
>>>
>>>It can be whatever you want, though the IRS might look askew at you when you
>>>put stuff on your tax return.
>>
>>I suppose the IRS has some documentation one what they want. Anyone
>>know the document numbers?
>>
>>>
>>>> For instance, a RV-6/7 would be an ideal platform for buzzing around
>>>> the state visiting customers.
>>>
>>>And limiting your business too much.
>>
>>An RV has the performace to easily reach out to the region.
>>
>>>
>>>> To get similar performance out of a
>>>> production airplane I'd be looking at well over twice the cost.
>>>
>>>How's it's reliability? Are you willing to cancel appointments? Critical
>>>ones, such as closure meetings?
>>>
>>>Sounds like (I maybe wrong) you're fitting your business to match your
>>>aircraft whims, rather than your aircraft SPECS to match your business
>>>needs.
>>>
>>
>>Not really. The business is established and ripe for expansion. Yes
>>I do have a real soft spot for the RV series. However; to get the
>>same speed and range, one would have to look at a SR20 or retract
>>single. Even an older 182RG costs (initial and maintenance) are well
>>above a RV.
>>
>>As far as reliablity, spending the time to find a well built example,
>>and utilizing the expertise of a trusted builder to help with the
>>purchase, I have no doubt that reliability will meet or exceed a
>>production single.
>>
>>I own a homebuilt now, and it is has be the most reliable airplane
>>I've ever flown.
>
>I've never flown in an RV, so I have to ask this question: Do they
>have sufficient baggage area to use effectively for business? Sure
>most of us only require a suitcase, laptop, and projector these
>days... I just imagine stuffing more than that in an RV would be
>difficult.

That's one of the points that makes the RV-7 so attractive to me. The
RV-3 & -4 don't have much space, but those are older models. Even the
tandem -8 has two storage areas.

-j-

[Smutny]

On 27 May 2004 14:34:34 -0700, (Bob Martin)
wrote:

>> I've never flown in an RV, so I have to ask this question: Do they
>> have sufficient baggage area to use effectively for business? Sure
>> most of us only require a suitcase, laptop, and projector these
>> days... I just imagine stuffing more than that in an RV would be
>> difficult.
>
>
>The baggage area is a pretty good size; you could get more than that
>inside it. Maybe two suitcases if they aren't too big, or definately
>2-3 duffel bags, a tent, and your laptop. And if you don't have to
>take a passenger along, you can remove the seat back and lay things
>down in there too. Some guys have even made modifications to the aft
>bulkhead (extending the baggage compartment some more) so they can
>carry their golf clubs with them. But yes, the things you mentioned
>above would fit comfortably, at least in a 6/7/9. The 10 has even
>more room, being a 4-seater and all.
>
>I know a guy that used to use his -6A for business; he was a state
>representative and used it to fly from his home district to our
>airport near the state capitol.
>
>As far as costs, an RV-6/7 would run about 45-50k to build yourself.
>Not sure what they go for completed. If you build it yourself, you
>can do your own annuals, and I'm not sure how much of the maintenance
>you can do if you aren't the "primary builder."

Yeah, I've seen some RV-6's in the $50K-$60K neighborhood, but they
usually have O-320's and are VFR only. To get a well built RV with an
O-360 and IFR capability, you're looking at $100,000+.

As far as building vs. buying... It's 6 of one, half dozen of the
other. Either you spend more money with annuals or you spend more
time up front building. I'm more of a pilot than a builder, I'll buy
my time with paying more for a nice, ready to fly, airplane.

-j-

[Gene Seibel]

Scott Benger > wrote in message >...
> What kind of business are you in and how do you use your owned
> airplane for business as a productivity tool (not just a tax
> write-off)? There have been plenty of discussions on this group about
> tax issues, but few on the use of an airplane to make a business more
> successful.
>
> Me? Unfortuanately my accounting work has no business need for an
> airplane (yet?).

I work as a broadcast engineer. I often use my airplane for
transportation to sites around the country where I go to work on
transmitters. It's more convenient and often faster than commercial
flights with all their security, waiting and conncetions. There are no
hassles with tools, test equipment and parts that I may need to take
along. Makes me love my job. ;)
--
Gene Seibel
http://pad39a.com/gene/broadcast.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.