Opinions on 1981 172P - First Airplane

[[email protected]]

I know everyone has an opinion... and I'd like to hear some of them!

I'm a first time buyer, and I've come across a 172P for sale at a
local airport. Its a 1981, 4000TTAF, 1700SMOH. No GPS, standard
avionics (digital radios, 720CH, ADF, Audio Panel, Xpndr) No damage
history and a current annual and IFR certification.

It looks to be extremely clean inside and out. Paint seems to be a 7
or 8. It is privately owned, although I don't know about rental
history in the past.

The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
installed?

And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
priced lower due to the engine time?

Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
<Jerry Napoliano> wrote:
>The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
>Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
>300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
>be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?

Almost certainly not. And the installed price of a 430 will be closer
to $10k.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Tom Sixkiller]

" <Jerry Napoliano> wrote in message
...
>
> The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
> Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
> 300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
> be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?
>
> Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
> should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
> installed?
> And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
> priced lower due to the engine time?

(Comparison) http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftView.jsp?aircraft_id=82361
Price is "okay", but..

1) How much experience do you have? (new PPL or 2000 hours....?)

And the biggie!!!

2) What do you intend to use it for? Business, pleasure, or a combination of
the two? If business, what's your business mission profile?

With enough experience and proper justification, your first OWNED airplane
could well be more complex.

For example, our firms lawyer's first plane was a T210, used strictly for
business, but he has upwards of 1000 hours.

Our firms #1 partner's first plane was a 340, then a Conquest, then a
Citation CJ...but he spent 12 years flying KC-135s.

> Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!

What's your use profile? Or are you asking strictly for the value of the
aircraft?

[Maule Driver]

Owning is great! Welcome aboard.

The comments about use profile are critical. If you will really be
traveling or doing IFR, a little more speed and power are nice. If not, the
172 can be perfect. I'm a buy it and keep it a long time kind of guy so
getting something that will serve 5 years out has been important (I'm on
#3). Others are fly it and sell it and upgrade - but that path suggests
buying low time, ready to go a/c. Like kitchens and bathrooms, you won't
get your investments back at resale, you want to use the stuff. So with
this kind of plane, you want to think you will still be flying it in 5+
years.

The Garmin will cost you $10k minimum. Plan on $15k or more ("since we are
opening up the panel, we might as well do x and y and z, don't you think?")

If this is the first or 2nd a/c you've looked at seriously - don't buy it
(shields up). It's easy to fall for the first a/c you see. There is a
buyer's education process that will happen if you take a little time and
survey the market a bit. Yes, you may pass on a great deal but more likely,
you'll kick some tires, learn a great deal, and then hopefully trip over one
of those deals that really is good.... or at least right for you.

Good luck.


" <Jerry Napoliano> wrote in message
...
> I know everyone has an opinion... and I'd like to hear some of them!
>
> I'm a first time buyer, and I've come across a 172P for sale at a
> local airport. Its a 1981, 4000TTAF, 1700SMOH. No GPS, standard
> avionics (digital radios, 720CH, ADF, Audio Panel, Xpndr) No damage
> history and a current annual and IFR certification.
>
> It looks to be extremely clean inside and out. Paint seems to be a 7
> or 8. It is privately owned, although I don't know about rental
> history in the past.
>
> The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
> Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
> 300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
> be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?
>
> Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
> should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
> installed?
>
> And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
> priced lower due to the engine time?
>
> Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!
>

[Jerry Napoliano]

Tom -

I'm not a new PPL, but certainly not an ATP.. I'm around 400 hours.
I'm buying for personal flights, no business need at all.

I don't have an enormous budget, so I'm looking in the $50k - $60k
range, something reliable, clean and well maintained. Of course I
would prefer something faster, with 6 seats, but thats not realistic
right now.

My primary concern now is evaluating the cost of this airplane. It is
very clean, well maintained, just getting close to TBO. How that
effects its price is what I'm trying to determine.

Thanks for your help.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:00:07 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>
" <Jerry Napoliano> wrote in message
...
>>
>> The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
>> Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
>> 300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
>> be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?
>>
>> Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
>> should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
>> installed?
>> And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
>> priced lower due to the engine time?
>
>(Comparison) http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftView.jsp?aircraft_id=82361
>Price is "okay", but..
>
>1) How much experience do you have? (new PPL or 2000 hours....?)
>
>And the biggie!!!
>
>2) What do you intend to use it for? Business, pleasure, or a combination of
>the two? If business, what's your business mission profile?
>
>With enough experience and proper justification, your first OWNED airplane
>could well be more complex.
>
>For example, our firms lawyer's first plane was a T210, used strictly for
>business, but he has upwards of 1000 hours.
>
>Our firms #1 partner's first plane was a 340, then a Conquest, then a
>Citation CJ...but he spent 12 years flying KC-135s.
>
>> Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!
>
>What's your use profile? Or are you asking strictly for the value of the
>aircraft?
>
>
>

[Jerry Napoliano]

Thanks for the comments. I will be using it IFR, and for traveling.
Long trips might only be once or twice a year, no more. Speed is
nice, I agree, but comes at a price that I'm just not able to justify
at this point.

I'd like to hear more about why you think I should pass on this one.
Its not the first I've looked at, and I've been doing a lot of
research over the last 6 months. From an avionics standpoint, its
fine - I'd just like to have an on-board GPS. From an
airframe/interior/exterior perspective, its excellent. For a 172 its
very clean inside and out.

What really effects my decision is how a 1700SMOH engine impacts the
price of the aircraft?

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:33:19 GMT, "Maule Driver"
> wrote:

>If this is the first or 2nd a/c you've looked at seriously - don't buy it
>(shields up). It's easy to fall for the first a/c you see. There is a
>buyer's education process that will happen if you take a little time and
>survey the market a bit. Yes, you may pass on a great deal but more likely,
>you'll kick some tires, learn a great deal, and then hopefully trip over one
>of those deals that really is good.... or at least right for you.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jerry Napoliano" > wrote in message
...
> Tom -
>
> I'm not a new PPL, but certainly not an ATP.. I'm around 400 hours.
> I'm buying for personal flights, no business need at all.
>
> I don't have an enormous budget, so I'm looking in the $50k - $60k
> range, something reliable, clean and well maintained. Of course I
> would prefer something faster, with 6 seats, but thats not realistic
> right now.

I'm sure you've heard (and will continue to hear) that you need to do a lot
of "homework" before hand. IAC, here's the biggest butt-kick you'll ever
hear: how much reserve ($$$) do you have for maintainance? With an airplane,
Murphy's Law, pertaining to maintenance is particularly acute. Aircraft are
much more susceptible to defered maintenance than just about any other
mechanical device than can hurt you.

What is the profile of your typical pleasure trip? 100NM? 300? 500? How many
passengers and how much baggage?

> My primary concern now is evaluating the cost of this airplane. It is
> very clean, well maintained, just getting close to TBO. How that
> effects its price is what I'm trying to determine.

TBO is a funny measure. It's a recommend "life expectancy" established by
the manufacturer.

For example, if the cost of an overhaul is $20,000 and your TBO is 2000
hours, then you can deduct $10 an hour from the normal price. When I bought
mine, it was 60 hours to TBO, but could (and will) go much longer. The
inspection revealed "like new" compressions, no metal in the oil, top end in
excellent shape...

Here is a good article that explains a lot and dispells a lot of OWT's (Old
Wives Tales).
-------------------------------
April 14, 2004
The Savvy Aviator #4: Debunking TBO

Engine TBO (time between overhauls) seems to be one of the most
misunderstood concepts in aviation maintenance. There are lots of
TBO-related old wives tales that are widely believed by owners and mechanic
alike, and they can cost owners a great deal of money. Mike Busch endeavors
to clear up these misconceptions, and explain what TBO really means.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/187037-1.html
-------------------------------------

As "Maule Driver" pointed out, don't be in a rush, and I'd add, don't be
fooled by cosmetics. You pointed out "well maintained" and that's a key if
you don't want someone elses problems and are willing to pay for it. This is
even more cogent in aircraft, I think, than in other endeavors (cars, homes,
spouses).

Remember, it's still a buyers market right now, so take your time and take a
lot of time to dig through all the lists. (I took nine months and checked
out over thirty aircraft before finding what I wanted (close to TBO so I
could do an engine upgrade) and a seller who knew what his airplane was
worth and took good care of it...and I'm not know for my patience.)

>
> Thanks for your help.

Your welcome. The people in here are very knowlegeable and experienced (if
opinionated :~) )and they steered me away from a couple disasters. Don't be
afraid to ask questions, even seemingly silly ones. And remember, the final
decision is yours and you get to enjoy it on YOUR terms, or you have to bear
the burden.

Good luck!

Tom Six

>
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 05:00:07 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> " <Jerry Napoliano> wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
> >> Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
> >> 300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
> >> be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?
> >>
> >> Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
> >> should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
> >> installed?
> >> And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
> >> priced lower due to the engine time?
> >
> >(Comparison) http://www.aso.com/i.aso/AircraftView.jsp?aircraft_id=82361
> >Price is "okay", but..
> >
> >1) How much experience do you have? (new PPL or 2000 hours....?)
> >
> >And the biggie!!!
> >
> >2) What do you intend to use it for? Business, pleasure, or a combination
of
> >the two? If business, what's your business mission profile?
> >
> >With enough experience and proper justification, your first OWNED
airplane
> >could well be more complex.
> >
> >For example, our firms lawyer's first plane was a T210, used strictly for
> >business, but he has upwards of 1000 hours.
> >
> >Our firms #1 partner's first plane was a 340, then a Conquest, then a
> >Citation CJ...but he spent 12 years flying KC-135s.
> >
> >> Any help with this decision would be immensely appreciated!
> >
> >What's your use profile? Or are you asking strictly for the value of the
> >aircraft?
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jerry Napoliano" > wrote in message
...
>
> Thanks for the comments. I will be using it IFR, and for traveling.
> Long trips might only be once or twice a year, no more. Speed is
> nice, I agree, but comes at a price that I'm just not able to justify
> at this point.

What do you consider a "long" trip? Time or miles? Out west, a long trip can
easily be 500NM; back east 150nm can take hours with the holds, indirect
routing...

> I'd like to hear more about why you think I should pass on this one.
> Its not the first I've looked at, and I've been doing a lot of
> research over the last 6 months. From an avionics standpoint, its
> fine - I'd just like to have an on-board GPS. From an
> airframe/interior/exterior perspective, its excellent. For a 172 its
> very clean inside and out.

Why on-board? Just my own addled opinion, but a yoke mounted, handheld GPS
in a 172 should be adequate.

(See? Lots of tough questions!! :~)

[Jerry Napoliano]

I would say a long trip would be in the 300 - 500 nm range. I'm in
the east, and your point about 150nm is well taken.

With regard to exact configurations, that's really tough to say at
this point. Baggage, passengers, and other specifics haven't garnered
a lot of consideration. I may have a passenger or 2 on some of the
long trips, but I'm not banking on it. I'm not buying to use the
plane as a weekend hauler, just something that I can use for pleasure
or to take a family member or friend with me for company. I vacation
in VT a couple times a year, so I would be taking some baggage with
me, and perhaps one or two passengers, but thats about it.

I hope that helps with configuration!

As for on-board, I suppose I could get over that. I agree that
yoke-mount would be OK. There's an avionics shop nearby and I've seen
Garmin 430's for $3750 there, which didn't seem like a bank-breaker
for a panel mounted GPS/COM upgrade. Installation, I understand, is
not included... what that would cost has yet to be determined.
Anyone?

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 07:42:32 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>
>"Jerry Napoliano" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Thanks for the comments. I will be using it IFR, and for traveling.
>> Long trips might only be once or twice a year, no more. Speed is
>> nice, I agree, but comes at a price that I'm just not able to justify
>> at this point.
>
>What do you consider a "long" trip? Time or miles? Out west, a long trip can
>easily be 500NM; back east 150nm can take hours with the holds, indirect
>routing...
>
>> I'd like to hear more about why you think I should pass on this one.
>> Its not the first I've looked at, and I've been doing a lot of
>> research over the last 6 months. From an avionics standpoint, its
>> fine - I'd just like to have an on-board GPS. From an
>> airframe/interior/exterior perspective, its excellent. For a 172 its
>> very clean inside and out.
>
>Why on-board? Just my own addled opinion, but a yoke mounted, handheld GPS
>in a 172 should be adequate.
>
>(See? Lots of tough questions!! :~)
>

[Maule Driver]

"Jerry Napoliano" > wrote in message
...
>
> Thanks for the comments. I will be using it IFR, and for traveling.
> Long trips might only be once or twice a year, no more. Speed is
> nice, I agree, but comes at a price that I'm just not able to justify
> at this point.
C172 sounds nice.
>
> I'd like to hear more about why you think I should pass on this one.
> Its not the first I've looked at, and I've been doing a lot of
> research over the last 6 months. From an avionics standpoint, its
> fine - I'd just like to have an on-board GPS. From an
> airframe/interior/exterior perspective, its excellent. For a 172 its
> very clean inside and out.
My assumption was that this was one of the first or 2nd you've looked at.
There is a learning curve involved in buying and it's just nice to spend
some time learning on the cheap side of the curve.

Avionics. If it all works and you'd keep it, fine. If you are IFR cert'd
and will really use it, I'm a new school guy who would bite the bullet and
get a panel mount cert'd unit too. If you are going to use it to get IFR
cert'd, I would definitely want to get the panel mount. Why pass up all
that training in a setup you are not going to fly.

Double the purchase price for installation. Need a new head? Is there
room? If not, what goes or gets replaced? Have a backup vac? There's $10k
in there some where with that Garmin - anyone want to correct me?
>
> What really effects my decision is how a 1700SMOH engine impacts the
> price of the aircraft?
I don't know. It could easily mean 2 - 5 years of flying is left. Could
mean it's done already. But it does mean you need a reserve and need to be
ready to do it when needed. If you've been researching 172s, the effect on
the price should be evident. The thing I would want to know is that the
plane has been flown regularly and recently. If it's been sitting for a
year or 2....

>

> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:33:19 GMT, "Maule Driver"
> > wrote:
>
> >If this is the first or 2nd a/c you've looked at seriously - don't buy it
> >(shields up). It's easy to fall for the first a/c you see. There is a
> >buyer's education process that will happen if you take a little time and
> >survey the market a bit. Yes, you may pass on a great deal but more
likely,
> >you'll kick some tires, learn a great deal, and then hopefully trip over
one
> >of those deals that really is good.... or at least right for you.
>
>

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, "
<Jerry Napoliano> writes:

>I'm a first time buyer, and I've come across a 172P for sale at a
>local airport. Its a 1981, 4000TTAF, 1700SMOH. No GPS, standard
>avionics (digital radios, 720CH, ADF, Audio Panel, Xpndr) No damage
>history and a current annual and IFR certification.
>
>It looks to be extremely clean inside and out. Paint seems to be a 7
>or 8. It is privately owned, although I don't know about rental
>history in the past.
>
>The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
>Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
>300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
>be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?
>
>Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
>should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
>installed?
>
>And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
>priced lower due to the engine time?
>

Price seems reasonable which is a SWAG at this distance.

First, don't spend more that about 80% of your budget on a plane. The first
couple of years will eat up the rest as you get it to your liking.

Second, an IFR (Garmin 430) GPS will cost about $10k installed(and it is well
worth it). Expect to get 50% of cost back on instrumentation (maybe a little
more on the 430). A hand held will get you GPS for $1k (but not IFR).

The engine life at 1700 hrs is very dependent on such things as oil
consumption, metal in the filter, oil analysis over the last few oil
changes(you want to see trends), time since overhaul, compression readings,
general smoothness etc.. It may last another 50 or 500, who knows?

An engine overhaul will take the plane out of service for some time. You will
be paying for a plane you don't have. A friend had his plane down for 7 months
(but that long is unusual). You'll get most of you cost back on an overhaul.

Finally, a airplane for most of us is a love afare so after all is said and
done, if the plane says "Hi Jerry, I love YOU" GO FOR IT! I did when I bought
my Archer 7 years ago and we are still in love. :-)

Chuck

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jerry Napoliano" > wrote in message
...
> As for on-board, I suppose I could get over that. I agree that
> yoke-mount would be OK. There's an avionics shop nearby and I've seen
> Garmin 430's for $3750 there, which didn't seem like a bank-breaker
> for a panel mounted GPS/COM upgrade. Installation, I understand, is
> not included... what that would cost has yet to be determined.
> Anyone?

That depends (IIUC) on if you want it IFR certified or not.

Just basic VFR installation will probably run you another $4K, but IFR will
run you about another, maybe, $2K-4K.

[Dave Butler]

Jerry Napoliano wrote:

>
> What really effects my decision is how a 1700SMOH engine impacts the
> price of the aircraft?
>

Spend $20 (or so) and run it through http://www.aeroprice.com

Dave

[Dave Butler]

Jerry Napoliano wrote:
> There's an avionics shop nearby and I've seen
> Garmin 430's for $3750 there, which didn't seem like a bank-breaker
> for a panel mounted GPS/COM upgrade. Installation, I understand, is
> not included... what that would cost has yet to be determined.
> Anyone?

You don't say you're looking for IFR certification, so that reduces your
installation cost. $8-10K is not unusual, I think, for a certified 430. IFR
certification lets you do approaches. In the enroute environment, there's not
benefit to the IFR cert.

Dave

[PaulaJay1]

Jerry,
I forgot to mention that buying in state in a private sale(not a broker)
sometimes does NOT have sales tax added. My purchase in Ohio had no sales tax.
This can be a big advantage. If a broker is involved, they may be able to
"step back" and charge the seller a fee and let the sale be person to person.

Chuck

[Dude]

I have to agree that the price is high given the engine hours on the plane.

If the plane were cherry, with a low time engine, autopilot, and a Garmin
430, it might bring about 70k. That would mean new or close to new paint
and interior, clean logs, a well known and reputable rebuilt engine and 100
to 250 hours on the engine and prop. Adding an AP and 430 costs much more
than you get back.

You can work backwards from there to get a lowball price, and then start
haggling.

At 1700 hours the engine is close to worthless, and there are lots of planes
like that around to choose from. The only hope for someone in your seller's
position to get a price like he is asking is that he and his plane are known
by the buyers. Otherwise, everything is assumed to be as bad as it can be
by any potential buyers.

If you really like the skyhawk, then it likely is not a bad plane for you
( the thing about buying an old skyhawk is that its like buying vanilla at
31 flavors ). Given your hours, you may want to look at other choices.
Tigers are more fun IMO, and a 182 is much more versatile (though more
expensive in everyway).




"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
"
> <Jerry Napoliano> writes:
>
> >I'm a first time buyer, and I've come across a 172P for sale at a
> >local airport. Its a 1981, 4000TTAF, 1700SMOH. No GPS, standard
> >avionics (digital radios, 720CH, ADF, Audio Panel, Xpndr) No damage
> >history and a current annual and IFR certification.
> >
> >It looks to be extremely clean inside and out. Paint seems to be a 7
> >or 8. It is privately owned, although I don't know about rental
> >history in the past.
> >
> >The owner is asking $57,000. My thoughts are that I could but a
> >Garmin 430 for around $4k, (how much would installation be??) and in
> >300 hours I'll need a new engine. After a $20k engine swap, will it
> >be worth $77k or more with 4300TTAF and 0SMOH?
> >
> >Does this make sense as a first airplane, with times like these, or
> >should I look for something with lower times and a GPS already
> >installed?
> >
> >And finally... does the price seem reasonable as is, or should it be
> >priced lower due to the engine time?
> >
>
> Price seems reasonable which is a SWAG at this distance.
>
> First, don't spend more that about 80% of your budget on a plane. The
first
> couple of years will eat up the rest as you get it to your liking.
>
> Second, an IFR (Garmin 430) GPS will cost about $10k installed(and it is
well
> worth it). Expect to get 50% of cost back on instrumentation (maybe a
little
> more on the 430). A hand held will get you GPS for $1k (but not IFR).
>
> The engine life at 1700 hrs is very dependent on such things as oil
> consumption, metal in the filter, oil analysis over the last few oil
> changes(you want to see trends), time since overhaul, compression
readings,
> general smoothness etc.. It may last another 50 or 500, who knows?
>
> An engine overhaul will take the plane out of service for some time. You
will
> be paying for a plane you don't have. A friend had his plane down for 7
months
> (but that long is unusual). You'll get most of you cost back on an
overhaul.
>
> Finally, a airplane for most of us is a love afare so after all is said
and
> done, if the plane says "Hi Jerry, I love YOU" GO FOR IT! I did when I
bought
> my Archer 7 years ago and we are still in love. :-)
>
> Chuck
>

[Dude]

I forget which year is which, but I would bet that $10 per hour is not far
off the mark. The thing is that the first 100 hours cost nothing (they
provide evidence the engine is good, which is worth $1000) and the last
couple hundred are worth nothing (given the chances of it breaking down, and
not really knowing the way its been treated).

Your rebuild/replacement options run from 15k on the low end, to 28k on the
high end, with most folks getting it done for about 18 to 20k after they put
in some other "while your at its".

Also, you might want more wing loading if IFR in your area means turbulence
and not just obscuration.


"Jerry Napoliano" > wrote in message
...
>
> Thanks for the comments. I will be using it IFR, and for traveling.
> Long trips might only be once or twice a year, no more. Speed is
> nice, I agree, but comes at a price that I'm just not able to justify
> at this point.
>
> I'd like to hear more about why you think I should pass on this one.
> Its not the first I've looked at, and I've been doing a lot of
> research over the last 6 months. From an avionics standpoint, its
> fine - I'd just like to have an on-board GPS. From an
> airframe/interior/exterior perspective, its excellent. For a 172 its
> very clean inside and out.
>
> What really effects my decision is how a 1700SMOH engine impacts the
> price of the aircraft?
>
> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:33:19 GMT, "Maule Driver"
> > wrote:
>
> >If this is the first or 2nd a/c you've looked at seriously - don't buy it
> >(shields up). It's easy to fall for the first a/c you see. There is a
> >buyer's education process that will happen if you take a little time and
> >survey the market a bit. Yes, you may pass on a great deal but more
likely,
> >you'll kick some tires, learn a great deal, and then hopefully trip over
one
> >of those deals that really is good.... or at least right for you.
>
>