Flying Club Costs

[The Weiss Family]

All,

We had an open house at our local airport here in Minden, NV (MEV) today.
It turns out there is a flying club based here that I didn't even know
about!

They have a late 60's 182 with a Pertesen conversion (260 HP, I think) and a
70's Grumman Tiger.
I think those are two great planes, but I was wondering a bit about the
costs.

They cost is $4000 to join (returned when you leave).
Then $179 monthly dues.
And then $80/hr wet rate for either plane.

At first I thought, well I pay $89/hr for a 172 rental right now.
$80/hr is a deal.
Then I added on the $179/mo.
If I only fly 50 hrs per year, my effective hourly rate is about $122.
If I fly 100 hrs per year my effective hourly rate is about $101.
That's not bad because I'd be able to take the plane on trips, etc.

What really got me thinking is, "Where does all the money go?"

There are 15 members of this club.
If each is paying $179/mo and flying 50 hrs/yr, then the club is bringing in
about $92K/yr.
So just for round numbers, let's assume each plane brings in about $50K/yr.

I then tried to estimate annual costs.
I tried to figure accurately or high on costs to give them the benefit of
the doubt.

Anually:
Insurance: $10K per plane
Maintenance: $10K per plane
Fuel/Oil: $13K per plane (400hrs x 2.75/gal x 12gal/hr)
Hangar: $3K per plane
Loan?: $10K per plane (not sure if there is a loan)
TOTAL: $46K

So, I guess I need more information, but it looks like I'm answering my own
question.
However, if there is $$$ left over, where does it usually go?
Is a flying club a "for profit" business?

Thanks,

Adam

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "The Weiss Family" > said:
>They cost is $4000 to join (returned when you leave).
>Then $179 monthly dues.
>And then $80/hr wet rate for either plane.

That seems pretty high to me. Our club
(http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/) costs $795 to join (not returned
when you leave), $80 monthly dues (plus $24 a year for "self insurance",
so call it $82 a month), and aircraft cost between $60/hr wet for the
Warrior to $116/hr wet for the Lance (assuming we figure out how to insure
it next year).

>There are 15 members of this club.

Well, ok we've got 50 members for five aircraft, so you've got a slightly
better plane/person ratio.

>However, if there is $$$ left over, where does it usually go?

Engine reserves, prop reserves, upgrade fund. Have to budget for those
Garmin 530s somehow, right?

>Is a flying club a "for profit" business?

Not usually.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
If Alan Turing was alive today, the homosexuality
would be OK but he'd be in trouble for codebreaking.
-- Martin Bacon

[Matt Whiting]

The Weiss Family wrote:
> All,
>
> We had an open house at our local airport here in Minden, NV (MEV) today.
> It turns out there is a flying club based here that I didn't even know
> about!
>
> They have a late 60's 182 with a Pertesen conversion (260 HP, I think) and a
> 70's Grumman Tiger.
> I think those are two great planes, but I was wondering a bit about the
> costs.
>
> They cost is $4000 to join (returned when you leave).
> Then $179 monthly dues.
> And then $80/hr wet rate for either plane.

That sounds pretty expensive on the surface, but then I'm not familiar
with prices in your part of the country. I belong to a flying club in
Elmira, NY and our costs for a 1967 PA-28R (Arrow) are:

$200 to join (I don't think this is refundable.
$100 deposit (I think this is refundable)
$1 share of ownership (This is refundable also)

$90/month dues

$56/hour wet rate (based on engine tach time, not Hobbs meter)

Matt

[Vaughn]

"The Weiss Family" > wrote in message
...
>
> At first I thought, well I pay $89/hr for a 172 rental right now.
> $80/hr is a deal.

If you are buying renter's insurance (and you probably should be) your
effective hourly rate is considerably higher than $80/hr. I assume (perhaps
wrongly) that you are covered for hull damage in the flying club.

> However, if there is $$$ left over, where does it usually go?
> Is a flying club a "for profit" business?

That depends, I have seen "flying clubs" that were, in fact, actually
businesses. If it is a true flying club, the handling of excess revenues would
be addressed in the club documents. They could be retained as a reserve for
unexpected expenses and/or they could somehow be returned to the members.

Vaughn

[Newps]

There is an airport near here with a 182 club. It costs about $5K to join,
$40 per month and $70 per hour wet. There are 12 members.


"The Weiss Family" > wrote in message
...
> All,
>
> We had an open house at our local airport here in Minden, NV (MEV) today.
> It turns out there is a flying club based here that I didn't even know
> about!
>
> They have a late 60's 182 with a Pertesen conversion (260 HP, I think) and
a
> 70's Grumman Tiger.
> I think those are two great planes, but I was wondering a bit about the
> costs.
>
> They cost is $4000 to join (returned when you leave).
> Then $179 monthly dues.
> And then $80/hr wet rate for either plane.
>
> At first I thought, well I pay $89/hr for a 172 rental right now.
> $80/hr is a deal.
> Then I added on the $179/mo.
> If I only fly 50 hrs per year, my effective hourly rate is about $122.
> If I fly 100 hrs per year my effective hourly rate is about $101.
> That's not bad because I'd be able to take the plane on trips, etc.
>
> What really got me thinking is, "Where does all the money go?"
>
> There are 15 members of this club.
> If each is paying $179/mo and flying 50 hrs/yr, then the club is bringing
in
> about $92K/yr.
> So just for round numbers, let's assume each plane brings in about
$50K/yr.
>
> I then tried to estimate annual costs.
> I tried to figure accurately or high on costs to give them the benefit of
> the doubt.
>
> Anually:
> Insurance: $10K per plane
> Maintenance: $10K per plane
> Fuel/Oil: $13K per plane (400hrs x 2.75/gal x 12gal/hr)
> Hangar: $3K per plane
> Loan?: $10K per plane (not sure if there is a loan)
> TOTAL: $46K
>
> So, I guess I need more information, but it looks like I'm answering my
own
> question.
> However, if there is $$$ left over, where does it usually go?
> Is a flying club a "for profit" business?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
>
>

[Elwood Dowd]

Jeez, that sounds more like a partnership than a club!


> There is an airport near here with a 182 club. It costs about $5K to join,
> $40 per month and $70 per hour wet. There are 12 members.

[PInc972390]

>> It turns out there is a flying club based here that I didn't even know
>> about!

My experience is

Best
$ 12000.00 182 in 1985, whole owner, sold in 1987 for $ 12000.00 flew 800 hours
with no major repairs.

Close Second

$ 20000.00 Aero Commander 100. 1999 till present. Have flown about 1000 hours
with radio up grades mostly.

Medium

$ 15000.00 Mooney in 1982, one other partner. Worked OK but partners Wife kept
chaos going on with Bank and CPA. Sold in 1983 for same money. 100 hrs annual
only.

Worst

$5000.00 in a flying club in 1987 for a 3 year old 172. Beautiful airplane.

Flew about 100 hours at prices just below rental rates.

Two Doctors, Hospital Administrator, Head Nurse ran it out of gas stalled and
flipped it on it's back killing all four. TERRIBLE, especially when finished
with the lawsuits, just because you knew them.

Glad to forfeit my $ 5000.00 Initial, The maintence retainer and the Lawyer
fees.

If you get into a club be sure it is chartered and has the language to protect
you.

[The Weiss Family]

Thanks for the info.
If anyone else has any more numbers, that would be interesting as well.

My next move is to ask the club for their financials and charter (if they
have one).

Thanks again,

Adam

[Andrew Gideon]

Elwood Dowd wrote:

> Jeez, that sounds more like a partnership than a club!

In fact, the club to which I belong - http://flyingclub.org/ - does seem to
be very much like a highly organized partnership. This appears to me to be
a Good Thing.

One of the side benefits is that one has an opportunity to learn about
owning, for example. One also has a say in club operations. It's added an
entirely new dimension to aviation, which is all on top of low rates for
good aircraft and no daily minimum nonsense.

There's also the social aspect to consider.

With respect to the OP's question about financials: the club can probably
provide a spreadsheet with all the details. Be sure that all the fixed
costs are covered by the dues, and variable costs are covered by the hourly
rates. Also, confirm that there's a reserve growing for the large ticket
maintenance items. Finally, look at the insurance policy.

These reduce the chance of surprises.

- Andrew

[G.R. Patterson III]

The Weiss Family wrote:
>
> I then tried to estimate annual costs.

You've left out the "banks" for replacement or repair of avionics and overhaul of
engines and props. The overhaul bank on an O-320 will be about $9/flight hour. It'll
be more for that 182.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[The Weiss Family]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> The Weiss Family wrote:
> >
> > I then tried to estimate annual costs.
>
> You've left out the "banks" for replacement or repair of avionics and
overhaul of
> engines and props. The overhaul bank on an O-320 will be about $9/flight
hour. It'll
> be more for that 182.
>
> George Patterson
> None of us is as dumb as all of us.

I was assuming engine reserve, etc would be part of the $10K/yr maintenance.
Although possible, I don't think the annual would be $10K year after year.
Does that seem reasonable? I've never owned, so it was just a guess on my
part.

Adam

[Matt Whiting]

PInc972390 wrote:

>>>It turns out there is a flying club based here that I didn't even know
>>>about!
>
>
> My experience is
>
> Best
> $ 12000.00 182 in 1985, whole owner, sold in 1987 for $ 12000.00 flew 800 hours
> with no major repairs.
>
> Close Second
>
> $ 20000.00 Aero Commander 100. 1999 till present. Have flown about 1000 hours
> with radio up grades mostly.
>
> Medium
>
> $ 15000.00 Mooney in 1982, one other partner. Worked OK but partners Wife kept
> chaos going on with Bank and CPA. Sold in 1983 for same money. 100 hrs annual
> only.
>
> Worst
>
> $5000.00 in a flying club in 1987 for a 3 year old 172. Beautiful airplane.
>
> Flew about 100 hours at prices just below rental rates.
>
> Two Doctors, Hospital Administrator, Head Nurse ran it out of gas stalled and
> flipped it on it's back killing all four. TERRIBLE, especially when finished
> with the lawsuits, just because you knew them.
>
> Glad to forfeit my $ 5000.00 Initial, The maintence retainer and the Lawyer
> fees.
>
> If you get into a club be sure it is chartered and has the language to protect
> you.

Our club is incorporated. Is that what you mean by "chartered?"

Matt

[PInc972390]

>Our club is incorporated. Is that what you mean by "chartered?"
>

Same thing, old timer slang language.

[Richard Hertz]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> The Weiss Family wrote:
> >
> > I then tried to estimate annual costs.
>
> You've left out the "banks" for replacement or repair of avionics and
overhaul of
> engines and props. The overhaul bank on an O-320 will be about $9/flight
hour. It'll
> be more for that 182.
>

At $80 per hour that should be taken care of - those planes don't burn that
much fuel.

I agree - this club seems to be rolling in cash or there are early members
who have not contributed at this level.

Just for grins I ran a 50k loan at 15 years for 9% - you can do better with
an equity loan, but the payments are roughly 500 per month. Add $200 for
tie down and insurance (fixed gear single) and that is about $700 per month.
Seems to me the original poster might want to consider an alternative. I
would start my own "flying club" or partnership in his/her position.

With 3-4 people in the partnership you might have more access to the plane
than the 15 person club with 2 planes and have lower insurance as well. I
round up the monthly costs to $900 to be conservative and drop the hourly
charge a bit too. With 3-4 people that means about 200 to 300 per month fee
with lower hourly charge, equity in the plane and probably more access to
the plane.

just my opinion.

(own a grumman cheetah)




> George Patterson
> None of us is as dumb as all of us.

[TTA Cherokee Driver]

The Weiss Family wrote:

> Thanks for the info.
> If anyone else has any more numbers, that would be interesting as well.
>
> My next move is to ask the club for their financials and charter (if they
> have one).
>
> Thanks again,
>

I belong to a club that has just over 200 members and 9 airplanes (10
currently but we're selling one that we just bought a replacement for).

Initation fee depends on the type of aircraft you want to fly and is
refundable when you leave: $300 for the 152s, $600 for the Warriors,
$1200 for the Mooneys. There's another $100 or so of nonrefundable fees
when you join, we do a driver license check and some other checks that
this pays for.

Monthly dues are $45. Hourly cost is $72 for the Warriors, $53 for the
152s, and $109 for the Mooneys. All wet. All club members are named
insureds on the club's policy. We have our own hangar/clubhouse that we
built on the ramp.

Compared to this your proposed club looks very expensive, but they do
have a better member to airplane ratio. On beautiful weekends it can
get tough to schedule a plane in my club. Here's our website:
http://www.wingsofcarolina.org

[Dude]

With this high an entry fee, it sounds like you are getting partial
ownership.

This is good and bad so you really need to read the charter, but if some
other entity is making a profit on this deal, then you need to see what
happens to your 4k if they disappear. You also want to know what your
liability is should another member run into the proverbial school bus full
of kids. Get a lawyer.

That is a great deal on the 182 ( I have heard good reviews of that
conversion), but the Tiger rate seems high unless it is really nice.

PS Do you live in Minden or Tahoe? I an jealous either way.








"The Weiss Family" > wrote in message
...
> All,
>
> We had an open house at our local airport here in Minden, NV (MEV) today.
> It turns out there is a flying club based here that I didn't even know
> about!
>
> They have a late 60's 182 with a Pertesen conversion (260 HP, I think) and
a
> 70's Grumman Tiger.
> I think those are two great planes, but I was wondering a bit about the
> costs.
>
> They cost is $4000 to join (returned when you leave).
> Then $179 monthly dues.
> And then $80/hr wet rate for either plane.
>
> At first I thought, well I pay $89/hr for a 172 rental right now.
> $80/hr is a deal.
> Then I added on the $179/mo.
> If I only fly 50 hrs per year, my effective hourly rate is about $122.
> If I fly 100 hrs per year my effective hourly rate is about $101.
> That's not bad because I'd be able to take the plane on trips, etc.
>
> What really got me thinking is, "Where does all the money go?"
>
> There are 15 members of this club.
> If each is paying $179/mo and flying 50 hrs/yr, then the club is bringing
in
> about $92K/yr.
> So just for round numbers, let's assume each plane brings in about
$50K/yr.
>
> I then tried to estimate annual costs.
> I tried to figure accurately or high on costs to give them the benefit of
> the doubt.
>
> Anually:
> Insurance: $10K per plane
> Maintenance: $10K per plane
> Fuel/Oil: $13K per plane (400hrs x 2.75/gal x 12gal/hr)
> Hangar: $3K per plane
> Loan?: $10K per plane (not sure if there is a loan)
> TOTAL: $46K
>
> So, I guess I need more information, but it looks like I'm answering my
own
> question.
> However, if there is $$$ left over, where does it usually go?
> Is a flying club a "for profit" business?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
>
>

[The Weiss Family]

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> With this high an entry fee, it sounds like you are getting partial
> ownership.
>
> This is good and bad so you really need to read the charter, but if some
> other entity is making a profit on this deal, then you need to see what
> happens to your 4k if they disappear. You also want to know what your
> liability is should another member run into the proverbial school bus full
> of kids. Get a lawyer.
>
> That is a great deal on the 182 ( I have heard good reviews of that
> conversion), but the Tiger rate seems high unless it is really nice.
>
> PS Do you live in Minden or Tahoe? I an jealous either way.
>
>


I'm in Minden.

[Mike Rapoport]

If you play around with the hours, add maitenance reserves (perhaps
including paint/interior) you can probably get to the number. $101-122/hr
sounds about right if you include reserves. $250/month sounds low for a
hanger an MEV.

Mike
MU-2

"The Weiss Family" > wrote in message
...
> All,
>
> We had an open house at our local airport here in Minden, NV (MEV) today.
> It turns out there is a flying club based here that I didn't even know
> about!
>
> They have a late 60's 182 with a Pertesen conversion (260 HP, I think) and
a
> 70's Grumman Tiger.
> I think those are two great planes, but I was wondering a bit about the
> costs.
>
> They cost is $4000 to join (returned when you leave).
> Then $179 monthly dues.
> And then $80/hr wet rate for either plane.
>
> At first I thought, well I pay $89/hr for a 172 rental right now.
> $80/hr is a deal.
> Then I added on the $179/mo.
> If I only fly 50 hrs per year, my effective hourly rate is about $122.
> If I fly 100 hrs per year my effective hourly rate is about $101.
> That's not bad because I'd be able to take the plane on trips, etc.
>
> What really got me thinking is, "Where does all the money go?"
>
> There are 15 members of this club.
> If each is paying $179/mo and flying 50 hrs/yr, then the club is bringing
in
> about $92K/yr.
> So just for round numbers, let's assume each plane brings in about
$50K/yr.
>
> I then tried to estimate annual costs.
> I tried to figure accurately or high on costs to give them the benefit of
> the doubt.
>
> Anually:
> Insurance: $10K per plane
> Maintenance: $10K per plane
> Fuel/Oil: $13K per plane (400hrs x 2.75/gal x 12gal/hr)
> Hangar: $3K per plane
> Loan?: $10K per plane (not sure if there is a loan)
> TOTAL: $46K
>
> So, I guess I need more information, but it looks like I'm answering my
own
> question.
> However, if there is $$$ left over, where does it usually go?
> Is a flying club a "for profit" business?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
>
>

[Mike Rapoport]

It could be $10,000 if you have 15 different pilots who are flying 400hrs/yr
total.

Mike
MU-2


"The Weiss Family" > wrote in message
...
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > The Weiss Family wrote:
> > >
> > > I then tried to estimate annual costs.
> >
> > You've left out the "banks" for replacement or repair of avionics and
> overhaul of
> > engines and props. The overhaul bank on an O-320 will be about $9/flight
> hour. It'll
> > be more for that 182.
> >
> > George Patterson
> > None of us is as dumb as all of us.
>
> I was assuming engine reserve, etc would be part of the $10K/yr
maintenance.
> Although possible, I don't think the annual would be $10K year after year.
> Does that seem reasonable? I've never owned, so it was just a guess on my
> part.
>
> Adam
>
>