Cost of annual?

[Hankal]

What does it cost for your annual?
Some shops around here now give an estimate then add for parts and extra labor.
I think some shops like to make a killing. I want all the airworthy item taken
care of and AD's complied with, but would pay by the hour.
I have a Cessna 172 in good shape.

[Javier Henderson]

(Hankal) writes:

> What does it cost for your annual?

Two hundred bucks and a six pack of diet coke.

See http://www.rstengineering.com/annual for more details. I just
completed my second annual on my Skylane, with Jim Weir inspecting and
me trading sweat equity for dollars in my wallet. Worked out great.

-jav

[G. Burkhart]

"Hankal" > wrote in message
...
> What does it cost for your annual?
> Some shops around here now give an estimate then add for parts and extra
labor.
> I think some shops like to make a killing. I want all the airworthy item
taken
> care of and AD's complied with, but would pay by the hour.
> I have a Cessna 172 in good shape.

My 'normal' annual costs $450 plus parts (10 hours at $45/hr). My first one
was right around $450, the next one was almost $1,800 with tires, window
replacement and some other squawks, my last one was again around $450. This
is on a 58 year old plane. I drop the plane off and come back a few days
later, pay the bill and leave. If you assist, you can save more money.

Where are you located? It might make a difference if you are in the
boondocks compared to the metro areas as to availability of inspectors and
costs. Check around and find one that works well for you.

[Matt Whiting]

Javier Henderson wrote:

> (Hankal) writes:
>
>
>>What does it cost for your annual?
>
>
> Two hundred bucks and a six pack of diet coke.
>
> See http://www.rstengineering.com/annual for more details. I just
> completed my second annual on my Skylane, with Jim Weir inspecting and
> me trading sweat equity for dollars in my wallet. Worked out great.
>
> -jav

Yes, but Jim is a cheap date! :-)

Seriously, my lowest cost Skylane annual was $600 and my highest was
nearly $3,000 which included replacing a cylinder and cracked piston
and some other significant items. Whether you technically consider that
cost part of the annual depends on your persepctive I guess. I never
assisted in any of the annuals.


Matt

[Rich]

Hank (or Al, or whatever)
I would guess you are about to be "informed" by Jim of a very common
indistinction made by many owners. There should be a CLEAR distinction
between the required ANNUAL INSPECTION, the repairs necessary to allow
the aircraft to pass that inspection, and the routine maintenance (such
as greasing wheel bearings) often performed at this inspection.

The annual inspection cost should be determined by your inspector's rate
times the standard hours to inspect your aircraft. My aircraft calls
for 22 hours to perform the inspection... Others less than ten. In the
present legal enviornment, many IA's need additional time the first time
they inspect an aircraft to assure themselves that the paperwork is in
order and that mandatory work previously signed off was, in fact,
correctly done.

The cost of regular maintenance is also easy to figure.

The cost of repairs to make YOUR aircraft airworthy is anybody's guess!

Rich

Hankal wrote:
> What does it cost for your annual?
> Some shops around here now give an estimate then add for parts and extra labor.
> I think some shops like to make a killing. I want all the airworthy item taken
> care of and AD's complied with, but would pay by the hour.
> I have a Cessna 172 in good shape.

[Jim Weir]

Rich >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Hank (or Al, or whatever)
->I would guess you are about to be "informed" by Jim of a very common
->indistinction made by many owners.

Moi? MOI???!!!


There should be a CLEAR distinction
->between the required ANNUAL INSPECTION, the repairs necessary to allow
->the aircraft to pass that inspection, and the routine maintenance (such
->as greasing wheel bearings) often performed at this inspection.

That is about the best truth that you are going to find on the newsgroups today.


->
->The annual inspection cost should be determined by your inspector's rate
->times the standard hours to inspect your aircraft. My aircraft calls
->for 22 hours to perform the inspection... Others less than ten.

And of those hours, somewhere between 80 and 90% are the labor to pull off the
inspection plates, pull the cowl, pull the spark plugs, tear the seats out to
pull the interior inspection plates off, open up the headliner, take the rear
bulkhead cover off, pull the wheel pants, (get the jacks onto the hardpoints for
retractible), fire up the compressor and pull the air hose over for the
compression check, and all the rest of the busywork required to get the airplane
into condition for inspection.

Let's take a middle ground...15 hours to do the inspection "by the book". Even
this is high for an airplane that you've been looking at for two or three years,
but let's go with it. Let's also go on the low side of my "grunt labor"
estimate. This means 3 hours actually "inspecting" and 12 hours grunting. I
think "owner assisted" folks here will tell you that these numbers are
real...and of those three hours "inspecting", two will be actually looking and
measuring and one will be paperwork -- AD research and the like.

So I get $200 for 3 hours work. That's $66 an hour. And you call me a cheap
date?



In the
->present legal enviornment, many IA's need additional time the first time
->they inspect an aircraft to assure themselves that the paperwork is in
->order and that mandatory work previously signed off was, in fact,
->correctly done.

That's why I get $200 on the first annual, $175 on the second, and $150 for
every CONSECUTIVE annual thereafter. The first annual is a bitch, as the
research on the ADs goes back to the day that sucker rolled out of the factory.
We also do a full back-to-the-factory weight and balance spreadsheet and the
lookin' don't get done until the writin' all is in order. Now you are right, I
**am** a cheap date, because by the time this first one gets done, I've got at
least 5 or 6 hours in the can with first-time paperwork. After the first one,
though, it is about fifteen minutes to see if there were any new ADs or
recurrent ones whose time is up, and an update of the weight/balance with "owner
installed" goodies, and other minor stuff. So I really start making my money
with the second and third annuals, which is why I do what I do.


That, and I'm very upfront with the owner that (a) they are going to get their
hands greasy; (b) I'm not going to sign off an unairworthy aircraft for ANY
reason; and (c) they are going to get a list of stuff that I'd like to see some
preventive maintenance done on in the coming year. The list is a checklist and
I want to see that checklist punched BEFORE I start the following year.

I ain't as cheap as you might think... {;-)


Jim

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Blanche]

whoa!!!! please remember that "annual" refers to the inspection only.
Any repairs, new gadgets, etc, are not officially part of
the annual.

Unfortunately all of us refer to "the annual" as the number at the
bottom of the bill that includes everything, not just the inspection.

[zatatime]

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:14:06 -0400, Rich > wrote:

>There should be a CLEAR distinction
>between the required ANNUAL INSPECTION, the repairs necessary to allow
>the aircraft to pass that inspection, and the routine maintenance (such
>as greasing wheel bearings) often performed at this inspection.


Oh so true. The problem I've found is very few people will do an
Inspection. I've talked to a bunch of shops / people, and they either
want to do the whole thing, or nothing at all. I even tell them an
A&P will sign the 100 hour before I bring them the plane!

It's very frustrating.

z

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
wrote:

> So I get $200 for 3 hours work. That's $66 an hour. And you call me a
> cheap
> date?

The local motorcycle dealer charges $72/hours for service, so, yeah,
the $66/hour for an IA is a bargain. (you have a heck of a lot
more training than the guys at the dealer).

--
Bob Noel

[Hankal]

>Seriously, my lowest cost Skylane annual was $600 and my highest was
>nearly $3,000 which included replacing a cylinder and cracked piston
>and some other significant items. Whether you technically consider that

My first annual was $14850.00 by a shop that did the prebuy. The price went
from 10K at 5 pm to 14850.00 by 7 PM. When I ask "why" they said we found some
things. They did not even work after 5.
Most of the $$$ was for labor. Like 55 hours of inspection, after the prebuy.
So now I am real cautious and no one will get my logs until I get the bill.
Hank

[Hankal]

>Where are you located? It might make a difference if you are in the
>boondocks compared to the metro

At a small airport in SE Florida. KLNA

[Hankal]

>whoa!!!! please remember that "annual" refers to the inspection only.
>Any repairs, new gadgets, etc, are not officially part of
>the annual.

So how many hours does it take to inspect a Cessna 172. I do not rent the
plane, but have a 100 hour inspection done every 100 hours. Change the oil and
filter every 50 hours or less, Send oil to lab every 100 hours.
I do not think 55 hours at $70.00 is resonable for an inspection

[Hankal]

>IA's need additional time the first time
>they inspect an aircraft to assure themselves that the paperwork is in
>order and that mandatory work previously signed off was, in fact,
>correctly done.

If the last 5 annuals were done and the logs state that all AD's were coplied
with,
why would the next IA have to spent more time. Just make sure that new AD's are
complied with.
Again why do shops give an estimate to do the annual, then add for additional
parts and labor. One shop will say $700.00 for the anual another $1000.00 and
the third at 1400.00. I am sure that inspection tome should be the same. Shop
rates can vary, but how much??

[Hankal]

>hat, and I'm very upfront with the owner that (a) they are going to get their
>hands greasy; (b) I'm not going to sign off an unairworthy aircraft for ANY
>reason; and (c) they are going to get a list of stuff that I'd like to see
>some
>preventive maintenance done on in the coming year. The list is a checklist
>and
>I want to see that checklist punched BEFORE I start the following year.
>
>I ain't as cheap as you might think... {;-)
>
>
>Jim
>
>Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
>VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor

Jim you are so correct. You are doing it the correct way and I would never have
a problem if shops in my area would have this approach. I do not want to fly
any aircraft that is not safe. I also pay for any work that is required. I have
a problem with shops that state x amount for the annual then parts and labor.
BTW I do remove all the plates, the seats. Give them a clean engine with the
cowling removed.

[JDupre5762]

>If the last 5 annuals were done and the logs state that all AD's were coplied
>with,
>why would the next IA have to spent more time. Just make sure that new AD's
>are
>complied with.

The first annual I ever did to a Commanche is a good example of what can happen
from trusting the previous IA too much. Since I had never done a Commanche I
wanted to get as familiar as I could by reading every AD against the aircraft
and then inspecting them on the aircraft to see what had been involved. I
found no less than three ADs that had been completely pencil whipped years
before. At least one of them was a recurring AD illegally signed off as not
needing future compliance.

Personally I never trust an "All ADs complied with" entry. To be precise you
are legally signing that you complied with every AD regardless of previous
compliance. The local FSDO's really hate to see that type of sign off. Better
to write "All ADs checked for compliance" through the particular bi weekly
issue current at the time of sign off. I also write up each individual AD
compliance that I do in the logbook as well as keep a listing of AD compliance.
That way I am covered. Because ADs are published in the Federal Register they
have the legal strength of Federal law, I want to be sure I have done it right.

John Dupre'

[JDupre5762]

>One shop will say $700.00 for the anual another $1000.00 and
>the third at 1400.00. I am sure that inspection tome should be the same. Shop
>rates can vary, but how much??

In the New England area shop rates vary from $50 an hour to $80 an hour on
averag. My shop is $67 an hour. Lots of shops give away annual labor in order
to gain money on parts sales and follow on business. Other shops have decided
to bill accurately and completely for every job from the start. I always
stress that the fixed price is for the inspection and the labor to gain access
but does not include service items and repairs. We record time in tenths of an
hour increments.

>Again why do shops give an estimate to do the annual, then add for additional
>parts and labor.

Because I generally know how long the actual inspection will take. That is one
fixed cost in the entire annual process that I can guarrantee. Our shop
decided some time ago that the fixed rates established by the manufacturers
seem to low and addded 5 to 10 hours to most of them based on our own time
reports provided by our mechanics.

The cost of parts and additional labor to correct discrepancies cannot really
be known unless you see the aircraft regularly between annuals and sometimes
not even then.

John Dupre'

[JDupre5762]

>My first annual was $14850.00 by a shop that did the prebuy. The price went
>from 10K at 5 pm to 14850.00 by 7 PM. When I ask "why" they said we found
>some
>things. They did not even work after 5.
>Most of the $$$ was for labor. Like 55 hours of inspection, after the prebuy.

Sounds like you bought a neglected twin or a really neglected complex single.
There are pre buys and there are pre buys. My company is owned by a large
corporation and they don't even want us to call it a pre buy or pre purchase
inspection. If the customer wants to call it that then I have to do a complete
annual inspection. I can do an aircraft evaluation but I can't call it a pre
buy inspection. Seems they got sued for just the sort of situation you are
describing.

As for the price jumping nearly $5,000 it is not unheard of but it is
inexcusable that they could not tell you sooner or explain it more fully.

John Dupre'

[JDupre5762]

>So how many hours does it take to inspect a Cessna 172. I do not rent the
>plane, but have a 100 hour inspection done every 100 hours. Change the oil
>and
>filter every 50 hours or less, Send oil to lab every 100 hours.
>I do not think 55 hours at $70.00 is resonable for an inspection

Inspection of a 172 is about 10 or 12 hours including decowling and pulling
panels and interior. That time could go up if there are lots of STCs that
require separate inspections but not to 55 hours. If they put 55 hours on the
inspection entry that was wrong.

Depending on how time is recorded it is possible that mechanics were
incorrectly recording time against the inspection squawk that should have gone
elsewhere but that should have been resolved before you saw a bill.

John Dupre'

[G.R. Patterson III]

Hankal wrote:
>
> I do not think 55 hours at $70.00 is resonable for an inspection

55 hours is absolute piracy for an inspection. If you do none of the grunt work at
all, a 172 should take about 15 hours. Check Jim Weir's post in this thread.

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Hankal wrote:
>
> If the last 5 annuals were done and the logs state that all AD's were coplied
> with,
> why would the next IA have to spent more time.

Because the new IA is guaranteeing that all the ADs have been taken care of. The new
IA is going to have to verify this or risk losing his or her license.

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Hankal" > wrote in message
...
> What does it cost for your annual?

Just under £2000.

Haven't had to have any work done at either of the two annuals
I've had so far (apart from the initial "civilianising" star annual).

Paul

[Dave Butler]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article >,
> wrote:
>
>
>>So I get $200 for 3 hours work. That's $66 an hour. And you call me a
>>cheap
>>date?
>
>
> The local motorcycle dealer charges $72/hours for service, so, yeah,
> the $66/hour for an IA is a bargain. (you have a heck of a lot
> more training than the guys at the dealer).
>

.... and more liability, by a long shot.

[Kyler Laird]

This is not particularly relevant to the situation described but I'm
happy to report that my recently-completed "annual" was only about
$5500 this year (not including replacing my leaky airspeed indicator).
There were no significant fixes needed for once. I even dodged an
expensive AD of replacing flap torque tubes because I had it done
years ago when it was just a service bulletin.

I usually spend two to five times this much during an annual so I'm
thrilled that I'm making some progress. Then again, I hardly flew
this past year (after frequently flying cross-country the years
before).

--kyler

[OtisWinslow]

"Hankal" > wrote in message
...
> I do not think 55 hours at $70.00 is resonable for an inspection

WHAT? For just the inspection? Maybe 15-17 hrs. What would take 55
hours to inspect on a 172?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Hankal wrote:
>
> What does it cost for your annual?

Just got the bill for mine. The basic inspection was $480. This was owner-assisted,
so nothing was charged for things like pulling panels. Miscellaneous supplies brought
the cost up to nearly $500. Sales tax of 6% applies.

In addition to the annual, the Lycoming crankshaft bore inspection was nearly due,
cables were found to require adjustment, one of the exhaust studs needed replacement,
some fabric work was required, and I bought into the ADLog system, so the total bill
was $896.55 plus tax. The cost of items which I purchased elsewhere (oil, dope, etc.)
kicked it up to around $1,100.

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

[Newps]

>
> Hankal wrote:
>
>>What does it cost for your annual?

Here in Montana the flat rate for my annual is $475 at 6S3. I do none
of that owner assisted crap. Did it once, never again on this plane.
Maybe when I get my 206. With the other maintenence I usually spend
between 1 and 2 grand.