Mooney M20 K on Grass ?

[vfr2003]

Hi,

I'm interested to buy a Mooney M20K. But the airfield I use is grass airfield.

Do you think that Grass is ok with a M20K or it's dangerous ?

Thanks a lot.
(I must take a decision in few days ... )

Mike.

[Al Marzo]

A friend has an "E" and he doesn't want it on grass. Last year at OSH
we walked through the Mooney camp and he pointed out how low the gear
doors were to the ground. Any little hole hit would obviously cause
damage. From what I've read on a recent thread, Mooney did raise it,
but you'll need to find out which model.

On 13 Aug 2004 02:02:19 -0700, (vfr2003) wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I'm interested to buy a Mooney M20K. But the airfield I use is grass airfield.
>
>Do you think that Grass is ok with a M20K or it's dangerous ?
>
>Thanks a lot.
>(I must take a decision in few days ... )
>
>Mike.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
(vfr2003) wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm interested to buy a Mooney M20K. But the airfield I use is grass airfield.
>
> Do you think that Grass is ok with a M20K or it's dangerous ?
>
> Thanks a lot.
> (I must take a decision in few days ... )
>
> Mike.


If the field is well-maintained (fre of potholes, etc.) there should be
no problem. Good grass fields are a pleasure to fly from.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 13 Aug 2004 02:02:19 -0700, (vfr2003) wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I'm interested to buy a Mooney M20K. But the airfield I use is grass airfield.
>
>Do you think that Grass is ok with a M20K or it's dangerous ?
>
>Thanks a lot.
>(I must take a decision in few days ... )
>
>Mike.

A well maintained grass strip should not be a problem. I have flown my
M20E (less clearance than an M20K) into a variety of grass strips in the
NE.

I would not hesitate to land at a grass strip provided I had spoken with
someone beforehand about the condition (and he sounded like he knew what he
was talking about).

You need to have good technique -- but that's probably true for any high
performance aircraft.

Also, you need to make sure of runway length and obstacles -- these are
frequently more of a problem at a grass strip than a paved runway.

Good luck!!


--ron

[Robert M. Gary]

Ron Rosenfeld > wrote in message >...
> On 13 Aug 2004 02:02:19 -0700, (vfr2003) wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >I'm interested to buy a Mooney M20K. But the airfield I use is grass airfield.
> >
> >Do you think that Grass is ok with a M20K or it's dangerous ?
> >
> >Thanks a lot.
> >(I must take a decision in few days ... )
> >
> >Mike.
>
> A well maintained grass strip should not be a problem. I have flown my
> M20E (less clearance than an M20K) into a variety of grass strips in the
> NE.

I don't think that is true. On the M20E you simply have the single
plate gear door attached to the gear itself. On the J-K's you have
another gear door extension that further reduces the distance from
bottom of tire to gear door. I would say any grass longer than 1"
would tear up the gear door. I have seen J model owners remove that
extra door and achieve the clearance of an E model Mooney.
I've landed my Moony on the beach in Mexico and gravel in Canada but
would never consider landing it on grass. I have hundreds of grass
landings in other planes, but wouldn't consider doing it in my Mooney.

-Robert

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 15 Aug 2004 11:08:58 -0700, (Robert M. Gary) wrote:

>I don't think that is true. On the M20E you simply have the single
>plate gear door attached to the gear itself. On the J-K's you have
>another gear door extension that further reduces the distance from
>bottom of tire to gear door. I would say any grass longer than 1"
>would tear up the gear door. I have seen J model owners remove that
>extra door and achieve the clearance of an E model Mooney.
>I've landed my Moony on the beach in Mexico and gravel in Canada but
>would never consider landing it on grass. I have hundreds of grass
>landings in other planes, but wouldn't consider doing it in my Mooney.

You may be correct about the gear doors, although there are speed mods that
put the extra door on the earlier models. I have the older donuts (still)
so thought my prop clearance (9") was a bit less than the K's.

In any event, I,too, would not land the Mooney on long grass, but I've been
into Katama, Gaddabout Gaddis, Lubec and Basin Harbor a number of times as
well as other fields. But as I said, I do call before hand to ensure the
field is in good shape.

I'm interested in your landing on gravel and beach experiences. We've got
a temporary gravel taxiway in place here in EPM (while the main taxiway is
being reconstructed), and I've been unwilling to even taxi on it for fear
of picking up the stones with the prop. Could you tell me more about those
surfaces you've been on?


--ron

[Maule Driver]

Just to add another thought.... (I have limited Mooney experience/knowledge)
operating occasionally on grass may be different than basing on grass. You
will always have 'bad' grass days on occassion if you base on it. Given the
need to go or get home, you will be sorely tempted to operate on such days
(i.e. mud, soft, or uncut).

Another issue may be insurance if you are basing on grass.

I live on 3400' of grass with trees on both ends and would never consider
owning a Mooney for that reason, even though that would otherwise be my
first choice for a retractable.

[Dave Butler]

Maule Driver wrote:
> Just to add another thought.... (I have limited Mooney experience/knowledge)
> operating occasionally on grass may be different than basing on grass. You
> will always have 'bad' grass days on occassion if you base on it. Given the
> need to go or get home, you will be sorely tempted to operate on such days
> (i.e. mud, soft, or uncut).
>
> Another issue may be insurance if you are basing on grass.
>
> I live on 3400' of grass with trees on both ends and would never consider
> owning a Mooney for that reason, even though that would otherwise be my
> first choice for a retractable.
>
Another data point, FWIW. I've never landed my J model on grass, but have
taxied on some pretty rough grass on a couple of occasions, like getting from
the runway to my camp site at OSH. I'm always nervous about it, but have yet to
see any damage. Limited data, 'cause it's not something I do very often. I may
just have been lucky. I'm still going to be nervous when I do that.

Dave

[Robert M. Gary]

Ron Rosenfeld > wrote in message >...
> On 15 Aug 2004 11:08:58 -0700, (Robert M. Gary) wrote:
> I'm interested in your landing on gravel and beach experiences. We've got
> a temporary gravel taxiway in place here in EPM (while the main taxiway is
> being reconstructed), and I've been unwilling to even taxi on it for fear
> of picking up the stones with the prop. Could you tell me more about those
> surfaces you've been on?

The beach was Alphonsinas in Baja. The beach is actually quite hard
and as long as you avoid the pot holes left by the trucks driving on
it, its almost like landing on a hard surface. I use a technique for
softfield in the case of the beach or gravel. I choose the best spot
for the mains when I do my low pass. On short final I trim the trim
all the way back and push forward on the yoke to hold attitude (the
Mooney is unusual in that back trim actually increases the available
back elevator authority). Once the mains hit (with the nose very high)
I add in some power and can hold the plane on the mains with the nose
very high. Once I find where I want the nose to be, I chop the power.

For takeoff, I do similar. I run the trim all the way back (or 3/4 if
back pax). Hold full back elevator. The nose will pop up pretty quick
on the take off roll (most people have never seen a Mooney's nose pop
up before:) ). You must be comfortable driving around on only the
mains because the plane isn't anywhere near flying speed. The goal is
to keep the prop as high as possible. I always practice soft field
techniques before going down to Mexico. Most Mooney pilots just land
normal so I'm not sure the condition of their props and gear in
Mexico.

-Robert

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 17 Aug 2004 11:18:17 -0700, (Robert M. Gary) wrote:

>Ron Rosenfeld > wrote in message >...
>> On 15 Aug 2004 11:08:58 -0700, (Robert M. Gary) wrote:
>> I'm interested in your landing on gravel and beach experiences. We've got
>> a temporary gravel taxiway in place here in EPM (while the main taxiway is
>> being reconstructed), and I've been unwilling to even taxi on it for fear
>> of picking up the stones with the prop. Could you tell me more about those
>> surfaces you've been on?
>
>The beach was Alphonsinas in Baja. The beach is actually quite hard
>and as long as you avoid the pot holes left by the trucks driving on
>it, its almost like landing on a hard surface. I use a technique for
>softfield in the case of the beach or gravel. I choose the best spot
>for the mains when I do my low pass. On short final I trim the trim
>all the way back and push forward on the yoke to hold attitude (the
>Mooney is unusual in that back trim actually increases the available
>back elevator authority). Once the mains hit (with the nose very high)
>I add in some power and can hold the plane on the mains with the nose
>very high. Once I find where I want the nose to be, I chop the power.
>
>For takeoff, I do similar. I run the trim all the way back (or 3/4 if
>back pax). Hold full back elevator. The nose will pop up pretty quick
>on the take off roll (most people have never seen a Mooney's nose pop
>up before:) ). You must be comfortable driving around on only the
>mains because the plane isn't anywhere near flying speed. The goal is
>to keep the prop as high as possible. I always practice soft field
>techniques before going down to Mexico. Most Mooney pilots just land
>normal so I'm not sure the condition of their props and gear in
>Mexico.
>
>-Robert

Well, that's pretty much what I do going into soft fields -- but they've
all been grass.

On a related note, my IA flew me back to EPM after I dropped my Mooney off
for it's annual. We were in a C172. He took one look at our temporary
gravel taxiway and said no way was he going to taxi on it.

I guess there's gravel and then there's gravel. (Just like there's grass
and then there's grass).


--ron

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 17 Aug 2004 11:18:17 -0700, (Robert M. Gary) wrote:

>Ron Rosenfeld > wrote in message >...
>> On 15 Aug 2004 11:08:58 -0700, (Robert M. Gary) wrote:
>> I'm interested in your landing on gravel and beach experiences. We've got
>> a temporary gravel taxiway in place here in EPM (while the main taxiway is
>> being reconstructed), and I've been unwilling to even taxi on it for fear
>> of picking up the stones with the prop. Could you tell me more about those
>> surfaces you've been on?
>
>The beach was Alphonsinas in Baja. The beach is actually quite hard
>and as long as you avoid the pot holes left by the trucks driving on
>it, its almost like landing on a hard surface. I use a technique for
>softfield in the case of the beach or gravel. I choose the best spot
>for the mains when I do my low pass. On short final I trim the trim
>all the way back and push forward on the yoke to hold attitude (the
>Mooney is unusual in that back trim actually increases the available
>back elevator authority). Once the mains hit (with the nose very high)
>I add in some power and can hold the plane on the mains with the nose
>very high. Once I find where I want the nose to be, I chop the power.
>
>For takeoff, I do similar. I run the trim all the way back (or 3/4 if
>back pax). Hold full back elevator. The nose will pop up pretty quick
>on the take off roll (most people have never seen a Mooney's nose pop
>up before:) ). You must be comfortable driving around on only the
>mains because the plane isn't anywhere near flying speed. The goal is
>to keep the prop as high as possible. I always practice soft field
>techniques before going down to Mexico. Most Mooney pilots just land
>normal so I'm not sure the condition of their props and gear in
>Mexico.
>
>-Robert

Oops. Forgot to thank you for posting that.


--ron