small partnership questions

[TTA Cherokee Driver]

As part of due dilligence in deciding whether or not to buy a plane and
if so how, I would like some feedback from people in small partnerships
(2-3 partners).

How do you usually handle scheduling? Do you divide up the calendar
("every other week is mine") and if so how flexible is it? Or do you
just do it ad hoc? How do you resolve conflicts, like you both want to
take a trip on July 4th?

How do you finance and own it? Do you form a corporation, or just get a
joint loan with joint ownership?

How important are compatible flying times? I.e., if one partner flies
2-3 times the hours of the other, does that cause problems, particularly
for scheduling and availability for the partners?

any feedback or info on this topic would be appreciated.

[Kyle Boatright]

"TTA Cherokee Driver" > wrote in message
...
> As part of due dilligence in deciding whether or not to buy a plane and
> if so how, I would like some feedback from people in small partnerships
> (2-3 partners).
>
> How do you usually handle scheduling? Do you divide up the calendar
> ("every other week is mine") and if so how flexible is it? Or do you
> just do it ad hoc? How do you resolve conflicts, like you both want to
> take a trip on July 4th?
>
> How do you finance and own it? Do you form a corporation, or just get a
> joint loan with joint ownership?
>
> How important are compatible flying times? I.e., if one partner flies
> 2-3 times the hours of the other, does that cause problems, particularly
> for scheduling and availability for the partners?
>
> any feedback or info on this topic would be appreciated.

I owned my first airplane with a partner. We had relatively few schedule
conflicts, and simply tried to communicate with each other when we'd like to
use the airplane. We were flexible when there were conflicts, and whoever
needed the airplane most got to use it. Also, if one of us hadn't been
flying much, the other partner would usually defer use of the airplane. One
thing we established up front was that if something just broke or wore out,
we both paid to fix it. If one of us broke something, whoever broke it fixed
it. We split fixed costs right down the middle, regardless of who was
flying the airplane.

My opinion is that you can't write a specific enough agreement to cover all
situations, so you'd better look for a reasonable partner and go in with a
basic agreement on the handful of important things.

KB

[Robert M. Gary]

We use a corp but it does cause more paperwork. We had to apply for an
exemption from the state's minimum corp tax of $800/yr. We also can no
longer write off aircraft property taxes. We also need to do the
accounting to reimberse all expenses through the corp. If you guys
write personal checks for things and don't run it back through the
corp a judge will quickly throw out any corp protection you may have.


TTA Cherokee Driver > wrote in message >...
> As part of due dilligence in deciding whether or not to buy a plane and
> if so how, I would like some feedback from people in small partnerships
> (2-3 partners).
>
> How do you usually handle scheduling? Do you divide up the calendar
> ("every other week is mine") and if so how flexible is it? Or do you
> just do it ad hoc? How do you resolve conflicts, like you both want to
> take a trip on July 4th?
>
> How do you finance and own it? Do you form a corporation, or just get a
> joint loan with joint ownership?
>
> How important are compatible flying times? I.e., if one partner flies
> 2-3 times the hours of the other, does that cause problems, particularly
> for scheduling and availability for the partners?
>
> any feedback or info on this topic would be appreciated.

[Robert M. Gary]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message >...
> "TTA Cherokee Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
>> My opinion is that you can't write a specific enough agreement to
cover all
> situations, so you'd better look for a reasonable partner and go in with a
> basic agreement on the handful of important things.

Its not your partner you need to worry about, its the guy he sells his
share to in the future. I had a guy try to buy a partners share that
wanted to build retract time for the airlines (not sure who told him
that). He was going to borrow money from his father to buy it, try to
get 500 hours in 2 years and then sell it. Luckily, I talked my
partner out of selling to him ( I was also willing to buy it at his
price).

-Robert

[Kyle Boatright]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
>...
> > "TTA Cherokee Driver" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> My opinion is that you can't write a specific enough agreement to
> cover all
> > situations, so you'd better look for a reasonable partner and go in with
a
> > basic agreement on the handful of important things.
>
> Its not your partner you need to worry about, its the guy he sells his
> share to in the future. I had a guy try to buy a partners share that
> wanted to build retract time for the airlines (not sure who told him
> that). He was going to borrow money from his father to buy it, try to
> get 500 hours in 2 years and then sell it. Luckily, I talked my
> partner out of selling to him ( I was also willing to buy it at his
> price).
>
> -Robert

I forgot to mention that we had a right of first refusal to buy the other's
half when someone decided to sell. If you've got that right, and it is
within your means (even for the short term) always exercise it so you can
control who becomes your next partner.

KB

[Dan Truesdell]

We have 5 partners in a 172. Fortunately our flying habits don't cause
too many disruptions. We schedule online with AircraftClubs.com. Great
tool. (I have no connection to this organization.) IIRC, we allow two
weekends and the week between for each owner once every 6 months, and
one weekend every month. Other than that, it's first come, first serve.
(Which is great for the two of us who live in town.) We do have this
written in writing, but generally it's not an issue. (I scheduled a
flight last week 30 seconds before one of the other owners tried to. He
called to complain jokingly, and, since both of us were just scheduling
it for a short ride in the evening, we just cut our planned trips a bit
short to accommodate each other. Unless you have an owner that's a
jerk, this is SOP. However, having everything in writing is a good backup.)

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> "TTA Cherokee Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>As part of due dilligence in deciding whether or not to buy a plane and
>>if so how, I would like some feedback from people in small partnerships
>>(2-3 partners).
>>
>>How do you usually handle scheduling? Do you divide up the calendar
>>("every other week is mine") and if so how flexible is it? Or do you
>>just do it ad hoc? How do you resolve conflicts, like you both want to
>>take a trip on July 4th?
>>
>>How do you finance and own it? Do you form a corporation, or just get a
>>joint loan with joint ownership?
>>
>>How important are compatible flying times? I.e., if one partner flies
>>2-3 times the hours of the other, does that cause problems, particularly
>>for scheduling and availability for the partners?
>>
>>any feedback or info on this topic would be appreciated.
>
>
> I owned my first airplane with a partner. We had relatively few schedule
> conflicts, and simply tried to communicate with each other when we'd like to
> use the airplane. We were flexible when there were conflicts, and whoever
> needed the airplane most got to use it. Also, if one of us hadn't been
> flying much, the other partner would usually defer use of the airplane. One
> thing we established up front was that if something just broke or wore out,
> we both paid to fix it. If one of us broke something, whoever broke it fixed
> it. We split fixed costs right down the middle, regardless of who was
> flying the airplane.
>
> My opinion is that you can't write a specific enough agreement to cover all
> situations, so you'd better look for a reasonable partner and go in with a
> basic agreement on the handful of important things.
>
> KB
>
>


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

[Matt Whiting]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message >...
>
>>"TTA Cherokee Driver" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>My opinion is that you can't write a specific enough agreement to
>
> cover all
>
>>situations, so you'd better look for a reasonable partner and go in with a
>>basic agreement on the handful of important things.
>
>
> Its not your partner you need to worry about, its the guy he sells his
> share to in the future. I had a guy try to buy a partners share that
> wanted to build retract time for the airlines (not sure who told him
> that). He was going to borrow money from his father to buy it, try to
> get 500 hours in 2 years and then sell it. Luckily, I talked my
> partner out of selling to him ( I was also willing to buy it at his
> price).
>
> -Robert

Very true. The partnership agreement should discuss terms of sale by a
partner, and some restrictions are typically in order.


Matt

[Steven Barnes]

"TTA Cherokee Driver" > wrote in message
...
> As part of due dilligence in deciding whether or not to buy a plane and
> if so how, I would like some feedback from people in small partnerships
> (2-3 partners).
>
> How do you usually handle scheduling? Do you divide up the calendar
> ("every other week is mine") and if so how flexible is it? Or do you
> just do it ad hoc? How do you resolve conflicts, like you both want to
> take a trip on July 4th?
>
> How do you finance and own it? Do you form a corporation, or just get a
> joint loan with joint ownership?
>
> How important are compatible flying times? I.e., if one partner flies
> 2-3 times the hours of the other, does that cause problems, particularly
> for scheduling and availability for the partners?
>
> any feedback or info on this topic would be appreciated.
>

We've got 3 people in our Cherokee 180 for almost a year. We use the week
rotating schedule. If it's my week, I don't have to call anyone to fly. If
partner 2 wants to fly during my week, he calls me. If I have no plans I
give him that time. If partner 3 wants it, he calls me & I tell him partner
2 has it. Too bad. Next week, it rotates. So far, very few scheduling
conflicts, and most of those we were able to work around so the involved
parties still got to fly.

2 of us are in a local flying club, so we have some alternatives if the
Cherokee is tied up. It's a nice cheap backup.

[Prime]

TTA Cherokee Driver > posted the exciting
message :

> As part of due dilligence in deciding whether or not to buy a plane and
> if so how, I would like some feedback from people in small partnerships
> (2-3 partners).
>
> How do you usually handle scheduling? Do you divide up the calendar
> ("every other week is mine") and if so how flexible is it? Or do you
> just do it ad hoc? How do you resolve conflicts, like you both want to
> take a trip on July 4th?
>
> How do you finance and own it? Do you form a corporation, or just get a
> joint loan with joint ownership?
>
> How important are compatible flying times? I.e., if one partner flies
> 2-3 times the hours of the other, does that cause problems,
particularly
> for scheduling and availability for the partners?
>
> any feedback or info on this topic would be appreciated.
>
>

1 - We have priority months (3 of us). If you want to fly in a different
month you just call the priority pilot to reserve. Conflicts have been
extremely rare.
2 - We own it outright, partnership agreement. No loan.
3 - Haven't had big scheduling problems. At one time one partner was
averaging >200hr/year, the other two 50 hrs/year.

Prime Factor

[Dave Butler]

>
> We've got 3 people in our Cherokee 180 for almost a year. We use the week
> rotating schedule. If it's my week, I don't have to call anyone to fly. If
> partner 2 wants to fly during my week, he calls me. If I have no plans I
> give him that time. If partner 3 wants it, he calls me & I tell him partner
> 2 has it. Too bad. Next week, it rotates. So far, very few scheduling
> conflicts, and most of those we were able to work around so the involved
> parties still got to fly.
>
> 2 of us are in a local flying club, so we have some alternatives if the
> Cherokee is tied up. It's a nice cheap backup.

We use the weekly rotating schedule for the 4 partners in the Mooney. My only
complaint with that system is that sometimes I want to go flying on short notice
but I can't contact the partner who 'owns' the schedule at that moment. I've
heard about arrangements like: "if you can't contact the schedule owner, you are
allowed to commandeer the aircraft for a period not to exceed x hours", but I
have no experience with such an arrangement.

I also have a flying club membership and agree that makes a good backup.

The OP asked about the importance of dissimilar use of the aircraft. IME this is
a problem if you have dissimilar views on how the aircraft should be maintained.
For example, partner A flies twice a week and wants any squawks fixed pronto to
maintain the availability of the airplane. Partner B flies only occasionally and
wants to defer maintenance until the plane can be ferried to a mechanic who has
a lower hourly labor rate.

[Doug]

A partnership is as good as the partners. Keep an engine reserve. Keep
a seperate aircraft checkbook and credit card. Make sure your partners
have more money than you do :-).

TTA Cherokee Driver > wrote in message >...
> As part of due dilligence in deciding whether or not to buy a plane and
> if so how, I would like some feedback from people in small partnerships
> (2-3 partners).
>
> How do you usually handle scheduling? Do you divide up the calendar
> ("every other week is mine") and if so how flexible is it? Or do you
> just do it ad hoc? How do you resolve conflicts, like you both want to
> take a trip on July 4th?
>
> How do you finance and own it? Do you form a corporation, or just get a
> joint loan with joint ownership?
>
> How important are compatible flying times? I.e., if one partner flies
> 2-3 times the hours of the other, does that cause problems, particularly
> for scheduling and availability for the partners?
>
> any feedback or info on this topic would be appreciated.

[TripFarmer]

We have a 3-way partnership and each person is the "Primary" pilot from 6pm on
Wednesday to the next Wed. at 6pm. Every 3rd week you are the primary. When
you aren't the primary and want to fly you are to contact the primary and get
their approval. Each person is responsible for topping the tanks after flying
and for their own oil. Other than that all costs are divided 1/3, not by
the number of hours flown. That gives someone the incentive to fly if they
are going to pay 1/3 anyway.

We haven't had too many disagreements and the ones we have had work themselves
out. We each pay $120/month for fixed costs (hanger rent, Insurance,
and taxes). If anything is left when these are paid we apply towards the
annual. If any expenses come up and there aren't suffucient funds, we
just all put in our 1/3 of what is needed.

It does seem as the new partner I've done all the washing/waxing/tire
inflating, etc. the past 1 1/2 years but then I flew her 86 hours last year to
their combined less than 10. :o)



Trip Farmer
PA28 235
N8501N


In article >, says...
>
>>
>> We've got 3 people in our Cherokee 180 for almost a year. We use the week
>> rotating schedule. If it's my week, I don't have to call anyone to fly. If
>> partner 2 wants to fly during my week, he calls me. If I have no plans I
>> give him that time. If partner 3 wants it, he calls me & I tell him partner
>> 2 has it. Too bad. Next week, it rotates. So far, very few scheduling
>> conflicts, and most of those we were able to work around so the involved
>> parties still got to fly.
>>
>> 2 of us are in a local flying club, so we have some alternatives if the
>> Cherokee is tied up. It's a nice cheap backup.
>
>We use the weekly rotating schedule for the 4 partners in the Mooney. My only
>complaint with that system is that sometimes I want to go flying on short notice
>
>but I can't contact the partner who 'owns' the schedule at that moment. I've
>heard about arrangements like: "if you can't contact the schedule owner, you are
>
>allowed to commandeer the aircraft for a period not to exceed x hours", but I
>have no experience with such an arrangement.
>
>I also have a flying club membership and agree that makes a good backup.
>
>The OP asked about the importance of dissimilar use of the aircraft. IME this is
>
>a problem if you have dissimilar views on how the aircraft should be maintained.
>
>For example, partner A flies twice a week and wants any squawks fixed pronto to
>maintain the availability of the airplane. Partner B flies only occasionally and
>
>wants to defer maintenance until the plane can be ferried to a mechanic who has
>a lower hourly labor rate.
>
>
>
>

[PaulH]

We had 2 partners for a while in our Arrow. We drew up a partnership
agreement that was pretty detailed and included a first right of
refusal, together with how the airplane would be priced at buyout. I
had first rights for Saturdays, he had Sundays, but either could have
as long as needed with prior notice - seldom had a conflict. Damage
from carelessness to be paid by the responsible party.

We both kicked in the same amount every month to a partnership
checking account and paid all bills out of that.

The ideal partner is a guy with a lot of money and no time to fly.

[CriticalMass]

Dave Butler wrote:

> The OP asked about the importance of dissimilar use of the aircraft. IME
> this is a problem if you have dissimilar views on how the aircraft
> should be maintained.

I bought a PA-28 years ago from a partnership that couldn't agree on
avionics upgrades, so sold the plane.