Cost to install IFR GPS in a basic IFR 172?

[C Kingsbury]

Googling the group yielded little so here goes...

1979 172, overall average condition with mostly original radios and
wiring (one RT-385 recently replaced by a TKM radio, M1 Loran from a
few centuries ago)

The Cessna 300 ADF has gone flaky. The box tests fine on the bench
which suggests a wild goose chase may be in store to find the
gremlins. One of the two ILS approaches at my home field require ADF,
and a few fields I go to are ADF/GPS-only so I need one of the two.

My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup. I'll get
legal ADF and DME capability not to mention a moving map. Trying to
convince 4 other partners this is a good idea b/c it will make it
easier to sell shares in the future and even if they are VFR-only the
moving map is a big plus.

The local flight school says they've been spending an average of $6000
to do this with their birds at the local shop. Those of you who've
done this recently, any thoughts?

Bet,
-cwk.

[Roy Smith]

(C Kingsbury) wrote:
> The Cessna 300 ADF has gone flaky. The box tests fine on the bench
> which suggests a wild goose chase may be in store to find the
> gremlins. One of the two ILS approaches at my home field require ADF,
> and a few fields I go to are ADF/GPS-only so I need one of the two.

I wouldn't waste any time or money trying to fix an ADF today.

> My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
> ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup. I'll get
> legal ADF and DME capability not to mention a moving map. Trying to
> convince 4 other partners this is a good idea b/c it will make it
> easier to sell shares in the future and even if they are VFR-only the
> moving map is a big plus.

The GX-50/60 series are perfectly reasonable units, but don't forget to
factor in the cost of maintaining the IFR database. Also, to be IFR
legal, they need to have this funky external annunciator box mounted
somewhere within the pilot's normal scan, which means you need to find a
place in the panel to mount it.

I don't know how much a GX-60 will add to the value of the plane. True,
it is an IFR approach certified GPS, but it's also a generation out of
date and doesn't have much sex appeal anymore.

> The local flight school says they've been spending an average of $6000
> to do this with their birds at the local shop. Those of you who've
> done this recently, any thoughts?

My club has put in a mix of CNX-80's and GX-50/60's. The CNX is a much
more expensive unit, but it's also a much better box. I guess it all
depends on how deep your wallet is.

[Steve Robertson]

Gee whiz, Roy. Can't you tell the guy how much the installs cost your club?

Steve Robertson
N4732J

Roy Smith wrote:

> <snip>
>
> The GX-50/60 series are perfectly reasonable units, but don't forget to
> factor in the cost of maintaining the IFR database. Also, to be IFR
> legal, they need to have this funky external annunciator box mounted
> somewhere within the pilot's normal scan, which means you need to find a
> place in the panel to mount it.
>
> I don't know how much a GX-60 will add to the value of the plane. True,
> it is an IFR approach certified GPS, but it's also a generation out of
> date and doesn't have much sex appeal anymore.
>
> > The local flight school says they've been spending an average of $6000
> > to do this with their birds at the local shop. Those of you who've
> > done this recently, any thoughts?
>
> My club has put in a mix of CNX-80's and GX-50/60's. The CNX is a much
> more expensive unit, but it's also a much better box. I guess it all
> depends on how deep your wallet is.

[Steven Barnes]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
om...
> Googling the group yielded little so here goes...
>
> 1979 172, overall average condition with mostly original radios and
> wiring (one RT-385 recently replaced by a TKM radio, M1 Loran from a
> few centuries ago)
>
> The Cessna 300 ADF has gone flaky. The box tests fine on the bench
> which suggests a wild goose chase may be in store to find the
> gremlins. One of the two ILS approaches at my home field require ADF,
> and a few fields I go to are ADF/GPS-only so I need one of the two.
>
> My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
> ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup. I'll get
> legal ADF and DME capability not to mention a moving map. Trying to
> convince 4 other partners this is a good idea b/c it will make it
> easier to sell shares in the future and even if they are VFR-only the
> moving map is a big plus.
[snip]

If I remember correctly, you can use a GPS as a substitute for ADF for darn
near everything except an actual ADF approach. You can navigate to/from the
"ADF", hold at it, use it to define a marker/compass locator. Many NDB
approaches have some sort of GPS overlay, but I've seen a few around here
that didn't.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (i was wrong last year, i guess i'm due
again...)

[Dude]

If you are budget conscious, it may make more sense to find the best deal
you can on an acceptable IFR GPS.

King, Garmin, Apollo whatever works. Just make sure that its worth the
price of installing the thing. No point installing something worthless.

Talk to the different avionics shops until someone with a lot more money
trades in a reasonably new unit on the latest thing. Then grab it.





"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
om...
> Googling the group yielded little so here goes...
>
> 1979 172, overall average condition with mostly original radios and
> wiring (one RT-385 recently replaced by a TKM radio, M1 Loran from a
> few centuries ago)
>
> The Cessna 300 ADF has gone flaky. The box tests fine on the bench
> which suggests a wild goose chase may be in store to find the
> gremlins. One of the two ILS approaches at my home field require ADF,
> and a few fields I go to are ADF/GPS-only so I need one of the two.
>
> My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
> ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup. I'll get
> legal ADF and DME capability not to mention a moving map. Trying to
> convince 4 other partners this is a good idea b/c it will make it
> easier to sell shares in the future and even if they are VFR-only the
> moving map is a big plus.
>
> The local flight school says they've been spending an average of $6000
> to do this with their birds at the local shop. Those of you who've
> done this recently, any thoughts?
>
> Bet,
> -cwk.

[Elwood Dowd]

Also recall that $6000 is about 15% of the value of a basic IFR 172. If
you are going to even bother, try finding a used Garmin 430.
Installation and database update cost is going to be the same in either
case, but the Garmin software can be updated ad nauseum... not so with
the GX series.

[[email protected]]

I don't fly IFR but I think I'd consider getting the plane instrument
certified with the least expensive older unit I could find and then
actually fly with one of the new portables such as Garmin GPS296.

[PInc972390]

>> My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
>> ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup.

I have a GX 60 NO 1, Gx65 NO 2, Radar Altimeter, Annunciator, Glideslope, but
the main and most used GPS was and is a 195, 295, 196, 296 in that order of
purchace. Outside of the comm the portables have a lot more features. Look at
these closely before you buy a GX 60 or 430.

[Hankal]

>I don't fly IFR but I think I'd consider getting the plane instrument
>certified with the least expensive older unit I could find and then
>actually fly with one of the new portables such as Garmin GPS296.
>

If you are going to spend $$ to have an IFR plane the I would spend the other
10K to get a 430 Garmin GPS

[C Kingsbury]

Roy Smith > wrote in message >...

> I wouldn't waste any time or money trying to fix an ADF today.

My point exactly. Good money after bad IMHO.

> > My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the

> I don't know how much a GX-60 will add to the value of the plane. True,
> it is an IFR approach certified GPS, but it's also a generation out of
> date and doesn't have much sex appeal anymore.

A basic 1979 C-172 is not a vehicle for sex appeal. I want no-frills
utility. A 172 with an IFR GPS is a much more marketable beast than
one without, regardless of the GPS in question.

> My club has put in a mix of CNX-80's and GX-50/60's. The CNX is a much
> more expensive unit, but it's also a much better box.

Would you put a 12k GPS install into a plane with a 172 with a 40k-ish
hull value? By the time you're done we're talking about nearly the
cost of an engine overhaul, which at 1800 tach hours may not be far
off. That will add a lot more back to the value, too. You can buy an
engine for the next guy but the avionics are for the current owner.

> I guess it all
> depends on how deep your wallet is.

Figure somewhere between mud-puddle and pothole. Quite frankly I might
just end up repairing that damn fool ADF for just that reason.

-cwk.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 24 Aug 2004 12:15:08 -0700, (C Kingsbury) wrote:

>Googling the group yielded little so here goes...
>
>1979 172, overall average condition with mostly original radios and
>wiring (one RT-385 recently replaced by a TKM radio, M1 Loran from a
>few centuries ago)
>
>The Cessna 300 ADF has gone flaky. The box tests fine on the bench
>which suggests a wild goose chase may be in store to find the
>gremlins. One of the two ILS approaches at my home field require ADF,
>and a few fields I go to are ADF/GPS-only so I need one of the two.
>
>My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
>ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup. I'll get
>legal ADF and DME capability not to mention a moving map. Trying to
>convince 4 other partners this is a good idea b/c it will make it
>easier to sell shares in the future and even if they are VFR-only the
>moving map is a big plus.
>
>The local flight school says they've been spending an average of $6000
>to do this with their birds at the local shop. Those of you who've
>done this recently, any thoughts?
>
>Bet,
>-cwk.

Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something I
will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
equipment on board.

However, a recent install of my CNX80 was priced at 45 man-hours for the
installation (@ $60/hr = $2700). In addition to that labor cost, there was
also about $1,000 in extra equipment required not included in the price of
the CNX80.

I believe the unit you are considering will also require remote
annunciators of some sort, which would cost in addition to the labor and
cost of the unit itself.

$6,000 sounds about right. (My CNX80, installed, was about double that).


--ron

[Dave Butler]

wrote:
> I don't fly IFR but I think I'd consider getting the plane instrument
> certified with the least expensive older unit I could find and then
> actually fly with one of the new portables such as Garmin GPS296.

I do fly IFR and would like an approach-cert GPS, but I can't convince my
partners. I make do with a Garmin 196, and I have to admit, the difference in
capability of the airplane vs. having an approach-cert unit is very slight.
Having something mounted in the panel vs. yoke mount would be nice.

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:18:37 -0400, Dave Butler
> wrote:

wrote:
>> I don't fly IFR but I think I'd consider getting the plane instrument
>> certified with the least expensive older unit I could find and then
>> actually fly with one of the new portables such as Garmin GPS296.
>
>I do fly IFR and would like an approach-cert GPS, but I can't convince my
>partners. I make do with a Garmin 196, and I have to admit, the difference in
>capability of the airplane vs. having an approach-cert unit is very slight.
>Having something mounted in the panel vs. yoke mount would be nice.

I think the 296 has approaches. At least they're long runway extension
lines that could be used for a straight-in approach. But not
certified, I'm sure.

[Dude]

> Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something I
> will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
> Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
> equipment on board.
>

I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????

[JJS]

I had my Cherokee in for it's vfr transponder check the other day and
asked about radio upgrades. I have an Apollo/UPS/Garmin GX 65 so I
asked about support for it in case something goes wrong. The avionics
guy looked it up on a sheet of paper and said that Garmin is still
repairing them but there was a $400 blanket charge no matter how
trivial the problem. You sure want to make sure it's broke before you
send it in, he said.

He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
rating. Give me some guidance here group. Do I dump this kind of
money in a 1966 Cherokee 140 in slightly better than average condition
or do I invest in just a comm only to replace my fried navcom and call
it good? I've read a hundred threads in the past about this subject
and am still torn what to do. I'm reading in another thread about bad
support on the King KX-155's, too.

Joe Schneider
8437R


"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On 24 Aug 2004 12:15:08 -0700, (C Kingsbury)
wrote:
>
> >Googling the group yielded little so here goes...
> >
> >1979 172, overall average condition with mostly original radios and
> >wiring (one RT-385 recently replaced by a TKM radio, M1 Loran from
a
> >few centuries ago)
> >
> >The Cessna 300 ADF has gone flaky. The box tests fine on the bench
> >which suggests a wild goose chase may be in store to find the
> >gremlins. One of the two ILS approaches at my home field require
ADF,
> >and a few fields I go to are ADF/GPS-only so I need one of the two.
> >
> >My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace
the
> >ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup. I'll get
> >legal ADF and DME capability not to mention a moving map. Trying to
> >convince 4 other partners this is a good idea b/c it will make it
> >easier to sell shares in the future and even if they are VFR-only
the
> >moving map is a big plus.
> >
> >The local flight school says they've been spending an average of
$6000
> >to do this with their birds at the local shop. Those of you who've
> >done this recently, any thoughts?
> >
> >Bet,
> >-cwk.
>
> Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not
something I
> will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned"
units.
> Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the
ADF
> equipment on board.
>
> However, a recent install of my CNX80 was priced at 45 man-hours for
the
> installation (@ $60/hr = $2700). In addition to that labor cost,
there was
> also about $1,000 in extra equipment required not included in the
price of
> the CNX80.
>
> I believe the unit you are considering will also require remote
> annunciators of some sort, which would cost in addition to the labor
and
> cost of the unit itself.
>
> $6,000 sounds about right. (My CNX80, installed, was about double
that).
>
>
> --ron

[Roy Smith]

"JJS" <jschneider@REMOVE SOCKSpldi.net> wrote:
> He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
> KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
> IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
> rating.

If you don't plan on getting an instrument rating, why spend the money
to bring the plane up to legal IFR specs? The GX-60 gives you VFR GPS,
with moving map, and a COM radio. What more do you need for VFR
operation?

[Mike H]

No, no, no.... You DON'T want to try to repair that ADF.
We went that route for close to two years in our Archer, trying to
repair the Narco ADF and Navs/Coms. We just threw good money after bad.
We probably ended up sinking $2000 over a 2 year period before finally giving
in and going for a Garmin 430 and new King Nav/Com. It cost a pretty
penny (about $12000) but sure is nice now!

Mike

C Kingsbury wrote:
> Roy Smith > wrote in message >...
>
>
>>I wouldn't waste any time or money trying to fix an ADF today.
>
>
> My point exactly. Good money after bad IMHO.
>
>
>>>My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
>
>
>>I don't know how much a GX-60 will add to the value of the plane. True,
>>it is an IFR approach certified GPS, but it's also a generation out of
>>date and doesn't have much sex appeal anymore.
>
>
> A basic 1979 C-172 is not a vehicle for sex appeal. I want no-frills
> utility. A 172 with an IFR GPS is a much more marketable beast than
> one without, regardless of the GPS in question.
>
>
>>My club has put in a mix of CNX-80's and GX-50/60's. The CNX is a much
>>more expensive unit, but it's also a much better box.
>
>
> Would you put a 12k GPS install into a plane with a 172 with a 40k-ish
> hull value? By the time you're done we're talking about nearly the
> cost of an engine overhaul, which at 1800 tach hours may not be far
> off. That will add a lot more back to the value, too. You can buy an
> engine for the next guy but the avionics are for the current owner.
>
>
>>I guess it all
>>depends on how deep your wallet is.
>
>
> Figure somewhere between mud-puddle and pothole. Quite frankly I might
> just end up repairing that damn fool ADF for just that reason.
>
> -cwk.

[Frank Stutzman]

Dude > wrote:
> > Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something I
> > will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
> > Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
> > equipment on board.
> >

> I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????

An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

(Currently in MI with a current Garmin West/Central DB. Guess where the
West/Central DB ends. )

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[Dave Butler]

> An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

The requirement for a current database, if any, comes from the Approved Flight
Manual Supplement. Not all AFMSs have this requirement, but most do. You have to
read the AFMS for -that- airplane. Many UPS GX50/60 installs used boiler-plate
AFMS verbage that does not include the requirement for a current database.
Instead it requires only that the PIC determines that the procedure in the
database matches the procedure as currently published, or something like that.

Furthermore, an IFR GPS can be a legal substitute for an ADF for many
operations, but not all. AIM 1-1-19:

"The GPS Approach Overlay Program is an authorization for pilots to use GPS
avionics under IFR for flying designated nonprecision instrument approach
procedures, except LOC, LDA, and simplified directional facility (SDF)
procedures. These procedures are now identified by the name of the procedure and
"or GPS" (e.g., VOR/DME or GPS RWY 15). Other previous types of overlays have
either been converted to this format or replaced with stand-alone procedures.
Only approaches contained in the current onboard navigation database are
authorized. The navigation database may contain information about nonoverlay
approach procedures that is intended to be used to enhance position orientation,
generally by providing a map, while flying these approaches using conventional
NAVAIDs. This approach information should not be confused with a GPS overlay
approach (see the receiver operating manual, AFM, or AFM Supplement for details
on how to identify these approaches in the navigation database)."

[[email protected]]

JJS <jschneider@remove sockspldi.net> wrote:
: He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
: KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
: IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
: rating. Give me some guidance here group. Do I dump this kind of
: money in a 1966 Cherokee 140 in slightly better than average condition
: or do I invest in just a comm only to replace my fried navcom and call
: it good? I've read a hundred threads in the past about this subject
: and am still torn what to do. I'm reading in another thread about bad
: support on the King KX-155's, too.

: Joe Schneider
: 8437R

You are asking if you should install a KX-155 instead of what? Is the Garmin
GPS/COM kaput, or do you have another nav/com that died? In general, I agree with the
concensus that you don't want to upgrade avionics that you don't need or intend to
use. You can go cheaper routes than a KX-155 w/ GS if you never plan on using the
GS. The extra cost of that will most likely not be made up in resale. If you have an
inkling to get your rating, it tips the scales more. Need more information for real
advice.

-Cory

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering Ph.D. Graduate Student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Elwood Dowd]

> rating. Give me some guidance here group. Do I dump this kind of
> money in a 1966 Cherokee 140 in slightly better than average condition
> or do I invest in just a comm only to replace my fried navcom and call
> it good? I've read a hundred threads in the past about this subject

Your reading of the threads has probably told you NOT to invest in IFR
avionics you aren't going to use. Someone said it recently here---you
might buy an engine for the next guy, but any avionics you buy are for
yourself. You won't recover anything near the cost of them if you sell
the plane.

If you are not going to get the rating, leave it to the next owner to
certify the plane.

[Frank Stutzman]

Dave Butler > wrote:
> > An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

> The requirement for a current database, if any, comes from the Approved Flight
> Manual Supplement. Not all AFMSs have this requirement, but most do. You have to
> read the AFMS for -that- airplane. Many UPS GX50/60 installs used boiler-plate
> AFMS verbage that does not include the requirement for a current database.
> Instead it requires only that the PIC determines that the procedure in the
> database matches the procedure as currently published, or something like that.

True. The AFMS for my 430 installation does require a current DB and I
had forgotten that not all were that way.

My comment was more to the fact that the database has to be current for
the approach (i.e. the approach or waypoint must be in the database). As
I mentioned earlier, I'm currently visting outside of my normal database
coverage area. As I don't have the northern Michigan approaches in the
database, I can't do a GPS approach. Nor can I do any approach that
utilizes a NDB. Kinda limits my options.

Its the first time in the two years of flying behind the 430 that wish I
had kept my working ADF.





--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[Jay Masino]

Roy Smith > wrote:
> If you don't plan on getting an instrument rating, why spend the money
> to bring the plane up to legal IFR specs? The GX-60 gives you VFR GPS,
> with moving map, and a COM radio. What more do you need for VFR
> operation?

The GX-60 is an IFR GPS. Also, for me, even though I don't keep myself
IFR current anymore, it's nice to know the equipment is there "just in
case". Of course, in that scenario, the most important thing is probably
my wing leveler.

--- Jay



--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Dave Butler]

Frank Stutzman wrote:
> As I don't have the northern Michigan approaches in the
> database, I can't do a GPS approach. Nor can I do any approach that
> utilizes a NDB. Kinda limits my options.
>

I wouldn't mind being in N Mich right now, with or without database :-)

Dave

[C Kingsbury]

(PInc972390) wrote in message >...

> >> My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
> >> ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup.

> I have a GX 60 NO 1, Gx65 NO 2, Radar Altimeter, Annunciator, Glideslope, but
> the main and most used GPS was and is a 195, 295, 196, 296 in that order of
> purchace. Outside of the comm the portables have a lot more features. Look at
> these closely before you buy a GX 60 or 430.

Yes, I know I could buy a 296 and a 196 for backup for what it would
cost merely to install an IFR panel GPS, let alone buy the box. But
it's not a legal replacement for ADF and DME. Neither is my M1 Loran
but it's more accurate and useful than either most of the time. FYI,
all the places I care about going have GPS Overlays of their ADF
approaches so I don't need the actual ADF.

-cwk.

[Dave Butler]

C Kingsbury wrote:
> (PInc972390) wrote in message >...
>
>
>>>>My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace the
>>>>ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup.
>>>
>
>
>>I have a GX 60 NO 1, Gx65 NO 2, Radar Altimeter, Annunciator, Glideslope, but
>>the main and most used GPS was and is a 195, 295, 196, 296 in that order of
>>purchace. Outside of the comm the portables have a lot more features. Look at
>>these closely before you buy a GX 60 or 430.
>
>
> Yes, I know I could buy a 296 and a 196 for backup for what it would
> cost merely to install an IFR panel GPS, let alone buy the box. But
> it's not a legal replacement for ADF and DME. Neither is my M1 Loran
> but it's more accurate and useful than either most of the time. FYI,
> all the places I care about going have GPS Overlays of their ADF
> approaches so I don't need the actual ADF.

I musta missed something. I thought you were VFR only and not planning to get an
instrument rating. If that's the case, why do you care about legal replacement
for ADF and DME. VFR, everything's legal (well, almost). Ditto the GPS overlays.

Are you trying to make the plane IFR-capable even though you will never use the
capability, just to improve resale value?

(1) rethink whether you want an instrument rating. It's a good investment.
(2) if you still say you don't want the rating, get a panel-mount GPS so you
don't have wires strung all over and stuff clamped to the yoke.
(3) get the GPS IFR certified only if it's a really, really small cost
increment. You won't get your money back at resale.

Dave

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, Frank Stutzman
> writes:

>Its the first time in the two years of flying behind the 430 that wish I
>had kept my working ADF.
>
>

I think that Canada still has NDB approaches that do not have a GPS overlay and
need am ADF to legally do them.

Chuck

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, Mike H
> writes:

>No, no, no.... You DON'T want to try to repair that ADF.
>We went that route for close to two years in our Archer, trying to
>repair the Narco ADF and Navs/Coms. We just threw good money after bad.
>We probably ended up sinking $2000 over a 2 year period before finally giving
>in and going for a Garmin 430 and new King Nav/Com. It cost a pretty
>penny (about $12000) but sure is nice now!
>

I agree that you don't repair the ADF. I have the 430 installed (with a 330
transponder for TIS) in my 79Archer but a used Garmin 195 is a pretty good
inexpensive solution for VFR.

Chuck

[C Kingsbury]

"JJS" <jschneider@REMOVE SOCKSpldi.net> wrote in message >...

> guy looked it up on a sheet of paper and said that Garmin is still
> repairing them but there was a $400 blanket charge no matter how
> trivial the problem. You sure want to make sure it's broke before you
> send it in, he said.

Wonder what the charge is for a newer (out of warranty) 430? Probably
similar.

> He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
> KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
> IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
> rating. Give me some guidance here group.

When my #1 Cessna RT-385 started heading South we replaced it with a
TKM radio- designed as a slide-in replacement. I wouldn't consider
buying used when there's an option to buy a good new unit at a
reasonable price. In our case the lack of install cost made a new
slide-in a cheaper fix than a used rewiring job. I feel differently
about the GPS because the new/used price delta is far larger.

IMHO you're best off with a simple replacement rather than upgrade. If
you;re not going to use it, then don't buy it. It might be one thing
if it was a Mooney or Bonanza where you'd be looking to sell it to
mostly IFR pilots somewhere down the road, but a VFR-only 140 ought to
be plenty popular.

Best,
-cwk.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:49:11 GMT, "Dude" > wrote:

>I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????

I don't know all of the in's and out's that apply to TSO129 certified
equipment, so my conclusions may be incorrect.

My understanding is that if you are flying IFR, and have a TSO129 box, and
require an alternate, the AIM says that:

"Any required alternate airport must have an approved instrument approach
procedure other than GPS that is anticipated to be operational and
available at the estimated time of arrival, and which the aircraft is
equipped to fly."

So if you are choosing an NDB approach at your alternate airport, you would
need to have a functioning ADF receiver on board.


--ron

[JJS]

I wasn't clear at all, sorry. I've kinda unintentionally hijacked
this thread. My first comments were directed to the support for
Garmin / UPS / Apollo gps / coms, and they were on topic. Then I
mentioned possibly replacing a fried radio with a used audio panel and
King KX-155 and asked for guidance. My Apollo / Garmin is a GX65
which is the vfr version of the GX60. I like it and it works fine and
there is still support available to the tune of sending it in for a
blanket charge of $400. (Sounds like Garmin is pulling a Narco trick,
too).
The radio that fried is an old Genave 200 nav/com that was illegal to
transmit on but I kept it as a second radio because it all worked and
the nav portion was usable and the com portion might have helped out
in an emergency. It finally gave up the ghost and in the interest of
keeping the airplane in decent shape and upgrading a little at a time
I thought now might be the time to invest in either just a com radio
such as an ICOM IC-A200 or in some used equipment like a KX155. So,
what say yee wise ones? I doubt there is a slide in replacement for
the Genave.
>
> You are asking if you should install a KX-155 instead of what? Is
the Garmin
> GPS/COM kaput, or do you have another nav/com that died? In
general, I agree with the
> concensus that you don't want to upgrade avionics that you don't
need or intend to
> use. You can go cheaper routes than a KX-155 w/ GS if you never
plan on using the
> GS. The extra cost of that will most likely not be made up in
resale. If you have an
> inkling to get your rating, it tips the scales more. Need more
information for real
> advice.
>
> -Cory
>
>
************************************************** ********************
***
> * Cory Papenfuss *
> * Electrical Engineering Ph.D. Graduate Student
*
> * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
>
************************************************** ********************
***
>

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

Or $12k for the 530. The 480 may be the way to go if you think WAAS &
terrain are important. But these options sound like budget busters.

Thx, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.

[Tom Cummings]

I don't know of a slide in replacement for a Genave.
I do believe in having a backup COMM for sure. The ICOM IC-A200
would work fine for that.
For VFR also, it would be nice to have some kind of backup NAV. The
Michels, KX-155, and SL-30 are good choices and this would take care of the
extra COMM needed. Everybody doesn't have problems with KX-155s.
Get a comm with 760 channels. Also, a King KX 125 is available. Cost less
and has an internal cdi.
If you use the ICOM, a single VOR-NAV could be installed to provide some
VOR course guidance such as a King KN-53 with remote head.(kinda expensive
though)
Or, use the ICOM with a VFR Loran. It would give more features than a VOR.
And they are not expensive. I remember reading about a COMM/LORAN
once. Some Lorans don't have recent card update services available anymore.
One would have to inquire.
I "was" going to try to upgrade my Cessna each year by adding some new
equipment in a piece-meal fashion to spread the costs out over a longer
period
of time.The radio shop said don't bring them one radio at a time for them to
install.
It would cost me a lot more than getting everything at once because they
wouldn't
have to take everything out of the panel each time to connect all the
features
and components for each radio added later. Sounded like good advice.
The GX-65, by the way, is not merely a VFR version of the GX-60. It is an
IFR
approved unit, too, but for enroute and terminal operations only. It's just
can't be
approved for IFR approaches.
Visit Eastern Avionics site at http://www.avionix.com/aindex.html and view
the
Upgrades and Value Stacks pages for some ideas about panel upgrades and
radios to use.
Tom

"JJS" <jschneider@REMOVE SOCKSpldi.net> wrote in message
...
> I wasn't clear at all, sorry. I've kinda unintentionally hijacked
> this thread. My first comments were directed to the support for
> Garmin / UPS / Apollo gps / coms, and they were on topic. Then I
> mentioned possibly replacing a fried radio with a used audio panel and
> King KX-155 and asked for guidance. My Apollo / Garmin is a GX65
> which is the vfr version of the GX60. I like it and it works fine and
> there is still support available to the tune of sending it in for a
> blanket charge of $400. (Sounds like Garmin is pulling a Narco trick,
> too).
> The radio that fried is an old Genave 200 nav/com that was illegal to
> transmit on but I kept it as a second radio because it all worked and
> the nav portion was usable and the com portion might have helped out
> in an emergency. It finally gave up the ghost and in the interest of
> keeping the airplane in decent shape and upgrading a little at a time
> I thought now might be the time to invest in either just a com radio
> such as an ICOM IC-A200 or in some used equipment like a KX155. So,
> what say yee wise ones? I doubt there is a slide in replacement for
> the Genave.
> >
> > You are asking if you should install a KX-155 instead of what? Is
> the Garmin
> > GPS/COM kaput, or do you have another nav/com that died? In
> general, I agree with the
> > concensus that you don't want to upgrade avionics that you don't
> need or intend to
> > use. You can go cheaper routes than a KX-155 w/ GS if you never
> plan on using the
> > GS. The extra cost of that will most likely not be made up in
> resale. If you have an
> > inkling to get your rating, it tips the scales more. Need more
> information for real
> > advice.
> >
> > -Cory
> >
> >
> ************************************************** ********************
> ***
> > * Cory Papenfuss *
> > * Electrical Engineering Ph.D. Graduate Student
> *
> > * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
> >
> ************************************************** ********************
> ***
> >
>
>

[Newps]

Frank Stutzman wrote:

> Dude > wrote:
>
>>>Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something I
>>>will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
>>>Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
>>>equipment on board.
>>>
>
>
>>I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL cases????
>
>
> An IFR GPS *with a current database* is a leagal substitue for an ADF.

Not necessary for the GX units.

[Newps]

Jay Masino wrote:

> Roy Smith > wrote:
>
>>If you don't plan on getting an instrument rating, why spend the money
>>to bring the plane up to legal IFR specs? The GX-60 gives you VFR GPS,
>>with moving map, and a COM radio. What more do you need for VFR
>>operation?
>
>
> The GX-60 is an IFR GPS.

If you have it installed that way. If you don't want to have it
certified at the time of install it is just a VFR GPS. You could then
have it cetified at a later date.

[Tom S.]

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> > Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not something
I
> > will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned" units.
> > Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the ADF
> > equipment on board.
> >
>
> I thought that an IFR GPS was a legal substitute for an ADF in ALL
cases????
>
What do you mean by "ALL"? Some ILS approaches still require an ADF (i.e.,
BHB ILS 22).

[Dude]

Given the age of your aircraft, I think you are best to put your money into
portables unless you need IFR. The percentage of value of even the install
can get ugly.

If you need more avionics, you might as well move up in plane while you are
at it.



"JJS" <jschneider@REMOVE SOCKSpldi.net> wrote in message
...
> I had my Cherokee in for it's vfr transponder check the other day and
> asked about radio upgrades. I have an Apollo/UPS/Garmin GX 65 so I
> asked about support for it in case something goes wrong. The avionics
> guy looked it up on a sheet of paper and said that Garmin is still
> repairing them but there was a $400 blanket charge no matter how
> trivial the problem. You sure want to make sure it's broke before you
> send it in, he said.
>
> He had a used King audio panel and was going to check into a used
> KX155 and glideslope for me. We're talking 4500 to $5000 to get to
> IFR equipped here. I'm a vfr pilot and probably won't get my IFR
> rating. Give me some guidance here group. Do I dump this kind of
> money in a 1966 Cherokee 140 in slightly better than average condition
> or do I invest in just a comm only to replace my fried navcom and call
> it good? I've read a hundred threads in the past about this subject
> and am still torn what to do. I'm reading in another thread about bad
> support on the King KX-155's, too.
>
> Joe Schneider
> 8437R
>
>
> "Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 24 Aug 2004 12:15:08 -0700, (C Kingsbury)
> wrote:
> >
> > >Googling the group yielded little so here goes...
> > >
> > >1979 172, overall average condition with mostly original radios and
> > >wiring (one RT-385 recently replaced by a TKM radio, M1 Loran from
> a
> > >few centuries ago)
> > >
> > >The Cessna 300 ADF has gone flaky. The box tests fine on the bench
> > >which suggests a wild goose chase may be in store to find the
> > >gremlins. One of the two ILS approaches at my home field require
> ADF,
> > >and a few fields I go to are ADF/GPS-only so I need one of the two.
> > >
> > >My idea is to find a good used Apollo GX-50/GX-60 unit and replace
> the
> > >ADF. No need to touch the Loran, it makes a good backup. I'll get
> > >legal ADF and DME capability not to mention a moving map. Trying to
> > >convince 4 other partners this is a good idea b/c it will make it
> > >easier to sell shares in the future and even if they are VFR-only
> the
> > >moving map is a big plus.
> > >
> > >The local flight school says they've been spending an average of
> $6000
> > >to do this with their birds at the local shop. Those of you who've
> > >done this recently, any thoughts?
> > >
> > >Bet,
> > >-cwk.
> >
> > Whether or not the Apollo units are a good idea or not is not
> something I
> > will address. Don't forget that they are essentially "orphaned"
> units.
> > Also, to be legal, there may be instances where you need to have the
> ADF
> > equipment on board.
> >
> > However, a recent install of my CNX80 was priced at 45 man-hours for
> the
> > installation (@ $60/hr = $2700). In addition to that labor cost,
> there was
> > also about $1,000 in extra equipment required not included in the
> price of
> > the CNX80.
> >
> > I believe the unit you are considering will also require remote
> > annunciators of some sort, which would cost in addition to the labor
> and
> > cost of the unit itself.
> >
> > $6,000 sounds about right. (My CNX80, installed, was about double
> that).
> >
> >
> > --ron
>
>

[PInc972390]

>> The GX-60 is an IFR GPS.
>
>If you have it installed that way. If you don't want to have it
>certified at the time of install it is just a VFR GPS. You could then
>have it cetified at a later date.
>

Any panel is VFR unless certified IFR.