Pre-buy Inspection

[Jon Kraus]

My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

[Jon Kraus]

Thanks Kyle. It would be a haggling point though. JK

Kyle Boatright wrote:

> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
>>upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
>>time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
>>sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
>>just finished up an annual inspection on it.
>>
>>My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
>>for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
>>Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
>>do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
>>partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
>>plane and think the money would be well spent.
>>
>>One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
>>70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
>>would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
>>plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
>>flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
>>(probably wishful thinking I know).
>>
>>I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
>>Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
>>described. Thanks!!
>>
>>Jon Kraus
>>PP-ASEL-IA
>>Student aircraft purchaser
>
>
> John,
>
> A low compression cylinder isn't a big deal, assuming everything else checks
> out. Maybe the compression will come back up with use, maybe you'll need to
> pull the jug and have something fixed. The pre-buy might give you the
> answer to that question. In any case, pulling and repairing a cylinder
> isn't *that* big of a deal.
>
> KB
>
>
>
>

[Kyle Boatright]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
> upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
> time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
> sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
> just finished up an annual inspection on it.
>
> My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
> for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
> Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
> do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
> partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
> plane and think the money would be well spent.
>
> One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
> 70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
> would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
> plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
> flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
> (probably wishful thinking I know).
>
> I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
> Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
> described. Thanks!!
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student aircraft purchaser

John,

A low compression cylinder isn't a big deal, assuming everything else checks
out. Maybe the compression will come back up with use, maybe you'll need to
pull the jug and have something fixed. The pre-buy might give you the
answer to that question. In any case, pulling and repairing a cylinder
isn't *that* big of a deal.

KB

[Steve Foley]

It should not be a haggling point if you were already told about it.
Negotiations come into play when you find something that you didn't know
about.

I'd be pretty annoyed if someone flew my plane 100 miles away for a pre-buy,
and came back only to dicker about something I already disclosed.


"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks Kyle. It would be a haggling point though. JK
>
> Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
> > "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
> >>upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
> >>time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
> >>sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
> >>just finished up an annual inspection on it.
> >>
> >>My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
> >>for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
> >>Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
> >>do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
> >>partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
> >>plane and think the money would be well spent.
> >>
> >>One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
> >>70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
> >>would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
> >>plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
> >>flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
> >>(probably wishful thinking I know).
> >>
> >>I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
> >>Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
> >>described. Thanks!!
> >>
> >>Jon Kraus
> >>PP-ASEL-IA
> >>Student aircraft purchaser
> >
> >
> > John,
> >
> > A low compression cylinder isn't a big deal, assuming everything else
checks
> > out. Maybe the compression will come back up with use, maybe you'll
need to
> > pull the jug and have something fixed. The pre-buy might give you the
> > answer to that question. In any case, pulling and repairing a cylinder
> > isn't *that* big of a deal.
> >
> > KB
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[Jon Kraus]

So as a seller you would lower the price immediately even though you
didn't know why the low reading? Example: Say as the seller you wanted
$50,000 for the aircraft before you knew of a possible engine issue.
When you found out about the low compression but didn't know why you
would lower the price? Just trying to understand why you would be
annoyed. I'm not in this to **** off the seller but I don't want to pay
for something that is already existing either. Thanks !! JK

Steve Foley wrote:

> It should not be a haggling point if you were already told about it.
> Negotiations come into play when you find something that you didn't know
> about.
>
> I'd be pretty annoyed if someone flew my plane 100 miles away for a pre-buy,
> and came back only to dicker about something I already disclosed.
>
>
> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Thanks Kyle. It would be a haggling point though. JK
>>
>>Kyle Boatright wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
>>>>upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
>>>>time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
>>>>sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
>>>>just finished up an annual inspection on it.
>>>>
>>>>My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
>>>>for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
>>>>Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
>>>>do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
>>>>partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
>>>>plane and think the money would be well spent.
>>>>
>>>>One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
>>>>70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
>>>>would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
>>>>plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
>>>>flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
>>>>(probably wishful thinking I know).
>>>>
>>>>I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
>>>>Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
>>>>described. Thanks!!
>>>>
>>>>Jon Kraus
>>>>PP-ASEL-IA
>>>>Student aircraft purchaser
>>>
>>>
>>>John,
>>>
>>>A low compression cylinder isn't a big deal, assuming everything else
>
> checks
>
>>>out. Maybe the compression will come back up with use, maybe you'll
>
> need to
>
>>>pull the jug and have something fixed. The pre-buy might give you the
>>>answer to that question. In any case, pulling and repairing a cylinder
>>>isn't *that* big of a deal.
>>>
>>>KB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

[Jon Kraus]

So as a seller you would lower the price immediately even though you
didn't know why the low reading? Example: Say as the seller you wanted
$50,000 for the aircraft before you knew of a possible engine issue.
When you found out about the low compression, but didn't know why it was
low, you would lower the asking price say to $48,000? Just trying to
understand why you would be annoyed. I'm not in this to **** off the
seller but I don't want to pay for something that is already existing
either. Thanks !! JK

Steve Foley wrote:

> It should not be a haggling point if you were already told about it.
> Negotiations come into play when you find something that you didn't know
> about.
>
> I'd be pretty annoyed if someone flew my plane 100 miles away for a pre-buy,
> and came back only to dicker about something I already disclosed.
>
>
> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Thanks Kyle. It would be a haggling point though. JK
>>
>>Kyle Boatright wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
>>>>upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
>>>>time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
>>>>sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
>>>>just finished up an annual inspection on it.
>>>>
>>>>My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
>>>>for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
>>>>Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
>>>>do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
>>>>partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
>>>>plane and think the money would be well spent.
>>>>
>>>>One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
>>>>70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
>>>>would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
>>>>plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
>>>>flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
>>>>(probably wishful thinking I know).
>>>>
>>>>I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
>>>>Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
>>>>described. Thanks!!
>>>>
>>>>Jon Kraus
>>>>PP-ASEL-IA
>>>>Student aircraft purchaser
>>>
>>>
>>>John,
>>>
>>>A low compression cylinder isn't a big deal, assuming everything else
>
> checks
>
>>>out. Maybe the compression will come back up with use, maybe you'll
>
> need to
>
>>>pull the jug and have something fixed. The pre-buy might give you the
>>>answer to that question. In any case, pulling and repairing a cylinder
>>>isn't *that* big of a deal.
>>>
>>>KB
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

[Michael Horowitz]

Jon Kraus > wrote:


>Jon Kraus
>PP-ASEL-IA
>Student aircraft purchaser


Although apparently not usually part of a pre-buy, may I suggest you
ask the inspector the check the run-out of each engine?

I had an 'incident' with my BC-12D which caused the A&P to check the
engine run-out and it was out of limits, which required that we open
the engine and look around. Turned out the flange/hub was not exactly
perpendicular to the shaft, and since I'm running a wooden prop and it
was in fine shape, the thought was something happened long ago and
went unnoticed until now. - Mike

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Jon Kraus > wrote:
>One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
>70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances.

What should concern you is if the leak is past the valves rather than by
the rings.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Mike Rapoport]

The seller is generally considered liable for correcting airworthiness
issues. Lower compression in one cylinder is not an airworthiness item.

Mike
MU-2


"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> So as a seller you would lower the price immediately even though you
> didn't know why the low reading? Example: Say as the seller you wanted
> $50,000 for the aircraft before you knew of a possible engine issue.
> When you found out about the low compression but didn't know why you
> would lower the price? Just trying to understand why you would be
> annoyed. I'm not in this to **** off the seller but I don't want to pay
> for something that is already existing either. Thanks !! JK
>
> Steve Foley wrote:
>
> > It should not be a haggling point if you were already told about it.
> > Negotiations come into play when you find something that you didn't know
> > about.
> >
> > I'd be pretty annoyed if someone flew my plane 100 miles away for a
pre-buy,
> > and came back only to dicker about something I already disclosed.
> >
> >
> > "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Thanks Kyle. It would be a haggling point though. JK
> >>
> >>Kyle Boatright wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
> >>>>upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
> >>>>time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is
being
> >>>>sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends.
They
> >>>>just finished up an annual inspection on it.
> >>>>
> >>>>My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
> >>>>for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
> >>>>Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have
them
> >>>>do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range.
My
> >>>>partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our
first
> >>>>plane and think the money would be well spent.
> >>>>
> >>>>One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in
the
> >>>>70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course
we
> >>>>would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work.
The
> >>>>plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if
after
> >>>>flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
> >>>>(probably wishful thinking I know).
> >>>>
> >>>>I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
> >>>>Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
> >>>>described. Thanks!!
> >>>>
> >>>>Jon Kraus
> >>>>PP-ASEL-IA
> >>>>Student aircraft purchaser
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>John,
> >>>
> >>>A low compression cylinder isn't a big deal, assuming everything else
> >
> > checks
> >
> >>>out. Maybe the compression will come back up with use, maybe you'll
> >
> > need to
> >
> >>>pull the jug and have something fixed. The pre-buy might give you the
> >>>answer to that question. In any case, pulling and repairing a cylinder
> >>>isn't *that* big of a deal.
> >>>
> >>>KB
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>

[Robert M. Gary]

Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
> upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
> time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
> sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
> just finished up an annual inspection on it.

A Mooney is a pretty hard plane to get a good pre-buy on. You really
need to go to a Mooney specialty place. There are great hidden places
underneath where fatal rust can hide from all but the good specialist.
You also need the tank sealant inspected. Some leaking is normal but
you are concerned with the condition of the sealant. A reseal will
cost around $9000. You are looking for pealing and flaking of the
sealant. Pin holes are normal. A good AD search should be done on the
gear actuator. The AD is VERY complicated in that some actuators are
covered and others not. Sometimes the inside is the same. You at least
want to be sure the actuators are lubed really good. Very few A&Ps
know how to do that. You need to "exercise" the gear in a special way
to allow the grease to work in. The donuts should also be checked.
They are your only suspension. When they wear out you will start
leaking fuel from the tanks pretty quick because it causes the tank to
flex on landing when they are worn out. You also need to have the
preload checked on all the gear. There is a special tool to do that. 1
in 2 A&Ps don't know how to use it (I went to a Mooney maintenance
semenar where several A&Ps who had been working on Mooneys had to be
shown how to use it).

Don't let this run you off. There really aren't many planes out there
as great as a Mooney. I should know, I have one myself.
-Robert

[Hankal]

> In any case, pulling and repairing a cylinder
>isn't *that* big of a deal.

Not a big deal, but needs to reflect in the purchase price.

[Steve Foley]

Maybe I'm relating it too much to real estate.

Make an offer.
Arrange an inspection
negotiate anything revealed during the inspection
close.

If you tell me you want to do a pre-buy on my airplane, we will already have
a price negotiated. If, after the pre-buy, you want to lower your offer
based on something you already knew before the pre-buy (when we negotiated
the price) I'm telling you to take a hike.


"Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: "Steve Foley" >
>
> >It should not be a haggling point if you were already told about it.
> >Negotiations come into play when you find something that you didn't know
> >about.
> >
> >I'd be pretty annoyed if someone flew my plane 100 miles away for a
pre-buy,
> >and came back only to dicker about something I already disclosed.
>
> Damn, some people got a lot to learn about negotiations. The seller is not
> your best friend. Who cares if he is annoyed? Just as long as he is not
annoyed
> enough to tell you to take a hike. If you don't make an effort to get the
best price
> possible then you're just plain stupid. If 15 minutes of "back and forth"
gets
> you a grand or two off the price, go for it. How often do you make $8k an
hour.
> And if the guy waves goodbye with his middle finger as you fly off in your
new
> plane, congratulate yourself on a deal well done.
>
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>

[Eclipsme]

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:B6rYc.336985$%_6.247476@attbi_s01...
> In article >,
> Jon Kraus > wrote:
> >One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
> >70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances.
>
> What should concern you is if the leak is past the valves rather than by
> the rings.

As well as the trend over the last few inspections, I would think...

[Jim Carter]

Sounds very reasonable and the honorable way to do business.

I can't understand why some people think the object is to get the lowest
price when the object should be to make an honest deal. Deal with your
trading partner honorably, you'll meet them again sooner or later somehow --
wouldn't it be nice to do so with a clear conscience?

--
Jim Carter
"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
...
> Maybe I'm relating it too much to real estate.
>
> Make an offer.
> Arrange an inspection
> negotiate anything revealed during the inspection
> close.
>
> If you tell me you want to do a pre-buy on my airplane, we will already
have
> a price negotiated. If, after the pre-buy, you want to lower your offer
> based on something you already knew before the pre-buy (when we negotiated
> the price) I'm telling you to take a hike.
>
>

[Jon Kraus]

So what I hear you saying is that you won't have a clear conscience if
you haggle for the best price? I'm not out to hurt anyones feelings I
guess I am just treating it like a business deal. What is the deal here,
is the seller expecting full price even though there are issues that
were not revealed. My FBO did the annual on this plane and missed the
front fork being bent ( a known issue when people use tugs to move the
airplane and turn too sharp) it was clearly out of spec but I wasn't
told anything about it. I think it is a $700.00 or so repair. I also
found fuel seepage on the left wing that I was not told about. Now I
don't know **** about these planes except what I learned on the Internet
and I I wnet right to the troubled items and sure enough there were some
defects. I am not saying that my FBO delibertly tried to mislead me.
What I am saying is that a shop that deals with Mooney's every day would
have caught these issues in 5 minutes. This is why I am confuesed by
some of the posts almost condeming me for wanting a through inspection
that is going to cost me 5 or 6 hundred bucks. And your damn straight I
am going to use whatever the shop finds as a negotiating point. If the
seller balks then so be it. Let him rip someone else off. Make sense?
Thanks!!

Jon Kraus

Jim Carter wrote:
> Sounds very reasonable and the honorable way to do business.
>
> I can't understand why some people think the object is to get the lowest
> price when the object should be to make an honest deal. Deal with your
> trading partner honorably, you'll meet them again sooner or later somehow --
> wouldn't it be nice to do so with a clear conscience?
>

[Jon Kraus]

I whole totally agree. Thanks... JK

Hankal wrote:

>>In any case, pulling and repairing a cylinder
>>isn't *that* big of a deal.
>
>
> Not a big deal, but needs to reflect in the purchase price.

[Jim Carter]

Jon,
I'm not disagreeing with anything you wrote. My point was that I also
agree that if I already know the cylinder is low on compression, then I
would consider that before coming to a tentative price. The low compression
is a known issue before the pre-buy. Then if during the pre-buy I discovered
other things that I didn't know, I'd feel entitled to re-negotiate the
tentative price.

I don't think it would be proper to negotiate a tentative price, conduct
a pre-buy, and then come back and try to re-negotiate the price based on
things NOT found during the pre-buy. That would seem to me like I wasn't
negotiating in good faith before the pre-buy.

It's kind of like being given a timed test back when you were in school,
where once the time has run out for part one and you start the time for part
two, you aren't allowed to go back and change answers in part one.

--
Jim Carter
"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> So what I hear you saying is that you won't have a clear conscience if
> you haggle for the best price? I'm not out to hurt anyones feelings I
> guess I am just treating it like a business deal. What is the deal here,
> is the seller expecting full price even though there are issues that
> were not revealed. My FBO did the annual on this plane and missed the
> front fork being bent ( a known issue when people use tugs to move the
> airplane and turn too sharp) it was clearly out of spec but I wasn't
> told anything about it. I think it is a $700.00 or so repair. I also
> found fuel seepage on the left wing that I was not told about. Now I
> don't know **** about these planes except what I learned on the Internet
> and I I wnet right to the troubled items and sure enough there were some
> defects. I am not saying that my FBO delibertly tried to mislead me.
> What I am saying is that a shop that deals with Mooney's every day would
> have caught these issues in 5 minutes. This is why I am confuesed by
> some of the posts almost condeming me for wanting a through inspection
> that is going to cost me 5 or 6 hundred bucks. And your damn straight I
> am going to use whatever the shop finds as a negotiating point. If the
> seller balks then so be it. Let him rip someone else off. Make sense?
> Thanks!!
>
> Jon Kraus
>
>

[Lynne Miller]

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy. Unless you truly tear into the aircraft,
you don't know what you're getting into. If it's at all close by,
perhaps you could work out a deal to somehow pro-rate the annual
inspection, and just get it done. That way, you will at least have the
peace of mind to know exactly the shape the aircraft is in.

As an aside, I am quite drunk right now. :-) It's fun to hang out at
home, drink beers, and just relax.

Lynne

Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
> upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
> time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
> sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
> just finished up an annual inspection on it.
>
> My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
> for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
> Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
> do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
> partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
> plane and think the money would be well spent.
>
> One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
> 70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
> would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
> plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
> flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
> (probably wishful thinking I know).
>
> I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
> Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
> described. Thanks!!
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student aircraft purchaser

[Doug]

What is the TT on the engine, and what is the SMOH on the engine? If
either are high, you may be in for a total rebuild. ONE cylinder with
62 would concern me. If it's near TBO, you're probably in for a
rebuild. Typically as an engine ages, compression goes down and oil
usage goes up. Also check to see if the last rebuild included
crankshaft bearings, was it a total rebuild or just a top? Look for
oil in the front of the engine, this is evidence of main bearings
going out. A recently rebuilt engine can have cylinder replacements be
successful, but a good engine shouldn't need them. Like I said, if
it's near TBO, you're probably in for a rebuild, and if the last
rebuild wasn't a major, your probably going to have to major it. Its
not worth it to top a high time engine, IMO.

You haven't made a deal yet, so you can do whatever you want at this
point. Nothing wrong with buying knowing it will need a rebuild so
long as the buy price reflects this. You might get lucky and get 500
more hours, doing nothing.

If the compressions were all good, and no oil usage, you usually can
count on 500 more hours, REGARDLESS of the time on the engine.
Usually, not always. And nothing unusual about running it past TBO.
These Lycomings typically will run well past TBO.

Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
> upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
> time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
> sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
> just finished up an annual inspection on it.
>
> My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
> for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
> Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
> do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
> partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
> plane and think the money would be well spent.
>
> One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
> 70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
> would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
> plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
> flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
> (probably wishful thinking I know).
>
> I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
> Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
> described. Thanks!!
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student aircraft purchaser

[tony roberts]

Hi Jon

Here is my take.

I would offer my plane as is where is - faults disclosed for xxx dollars.
If you now make me an offer which I accept, based on the foregoing, I
would not look too kindly on a reduced offer because of a previously
disclosed fault.
However, if you discover a fault that I had not disclosed, then that
would merit discussion. It would not merit that I pick up the tab -
bacause we are talking about an old plane - you cannot expect new
replacements. If for example an instrument was in need of replacement I
may agree to pay up to 50%, but you are not about to get me to pay for a
new instrument.

HTH

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Steve Foley]

Haggle all you want, but stop after you've agreed on a price.

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> So what I hear you saying is that you won't have a clear conscience if
> you haggle for the best price?

[Jon Kraus]

When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
has just come out of an annual. JK

Lynne Miller wrote:

> Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
> worry about a $500 pre-buy. Unless you truly tear into the aircraft,
> you don't know what you're getting into. If it's at all close by,
> perhaps you could work out a deal to somehow pro-rate the annual
> inspection, and just get it done. That way, you will at least have the
> peace of mind to know exactly the shape the aircraft is in.
>
> As an aside, I am quite drunk right now. :-) It's fun to hang out at
> home, drink beers, and just relax.
>
> Lynne
>
> Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
>
>>My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
>>upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
>>time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
>>sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
>>just finished up an annual inspection on it.
>>
>>My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
>>for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
>>Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
>>do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
>>partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
>>plane and think the money would be well spent.
>>
>>One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
>>70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
>>would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
>>plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
>>flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
>>(probably wishful thinking I know).
>>
>>I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
>>Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
>>described. Thanks!!
>>
>>Jon Kraus
>>PP-ASEL-IA
>>Student aircraft purchaser

[Jon Kraus]

Doug - Thanks for your remarks. The engine has 420 hours SMOH which
included a new camshaft, new bearings ect. I'm wondering if the main
issue (with the low compression) is that the 420 hours has been over 6
years (and the last year it hardly flew at all). IMHO the plane has not
been flown enough. Like I said I'm an no expert but wouldn't you think
that 70 hours a year is a little light on usage? Could this be the
cause of the low compression on the cylinder? Maybe and mabe not. I have
a mechanical background but it has been years since I turned a wrench
but if I remember about compression checks the procedure was to take a
reading and if it was low then you squirt oil into the low cylinder (wet
compression check)and if the reading came up then the rings were either
worn or sticking. This is because the oil would temporarily seal the
rings but do nothing to seal up the valves. If the reading stayed the
same then you would suspect a valve problem. Please don't flame me too
bad on this because it has ben a while since I've done any engine work.
Although I suspect I'll be doing some owner assisted things with
whatever plane I end up. :-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser


Doug wrote:

> What is the TT on the engine, and what is the SMOH on the engine? If
> either are high, you may be in for a total rebuild. ONE cylinder with
> 62 would concern me. If it's near TBO, you're probably in for a
> rebuild. Typically as an engine ages, compression goes down and oil
> usage goes up. Also check to see if the last rebuild included
> crankshaft bearings, was it a total rebuild or just a top? Look for
> oil in the front of the engine, this is evidence of main bearings
> going out. A recently rebuilt engine can have cylinder replacements be
> successful, but a good engine shouldn't need them. Like I said, if
> it's near TBO, you're probably in for a rebuild, and if the last
> rebuild wasn't a major, your probably going to have to major it. Its
> not worth it to top a high time engine, IMO.
>
> You haven't made a deal yet, so you can do whatever you want at this
> point. Nothing wrong with buying knowing it will need a rebuild so
> long as the buy price reflects this. You might get lucky and get 500
> more hours, doing nothing.
>
> If the compressions were all good, and no oil usage, you usually can
> count on 500 more hours, REGARDLESS of the time on the engine.
> Usually, not always. And nothing unusual about running it past TBO.
> These Lycomings typically will run well past TBO.
>
> Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
>
>>My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
>>upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
>>time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
>>sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
>>just finished up an annual inspection on it.
>>
>>My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
>>for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
>>Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
>>do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
>>partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
>>plane and think the money would be well spent.
>>
>>One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
>>70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
>>would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
>>plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
>>flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
>>(probably wishful thinking I know).
>>
>>I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
>>Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
>>described. Thanks!!
>>
>>Jon Kraus
>>PP-ASEL-IA
>>Student aircraft purchaser

[Jon Kraus]

Maybe you should only post when sober then... The original post states
"They just finished up an annual inspection on it." :-)


Lynne Miller wrote:

> Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
> worry about a $500 pre-buy. Unless you truly tear into the aircraft,
> you don't know what you're getting into. If it's at all close by,
> perhaps you could work out a deal to somehow pro-rate the annual
> inspection, and just get it done. That way, you will at least have the
> peace of mind to know exactly the shape the aircraft is in.
>
> As an aside, I am quite drunk right now. :-) It's fun to hang out at
> home, drink beers, and just relax.
>
> Lynne
>
> Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
>
>>My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
>>upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
>>time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
>>sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
>>just finished up an annual inspection on it.
>>
>>My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
>>for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
>>Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
>>do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
>>partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
>>plane and think the money would be well spent.
>>
>>One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
>>70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
>>would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
>>plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
>>flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
>>(probably wishful thinking I know).
>>
>>I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
>>Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
>>described. Thanks!!
>>
>>Jon Kraus
>>PP-ASEL-IA
>>Student aircraft purchaser

[Peter Duniho]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
> has just come out of an annual. JK

IMHO, an annual inspection done (paid for) by the seller is worthless with
respect to pre-buy inspection.

I base this on personal experience, having bought a plane that had just had
an annual inspection done, and yet which still had significant problems,
including safety issues.

When buying an airplane, you *cannot* delegate ANY inspection of the
aircraft to the seller or anyone hired by the seller. The only way to know
for sure the condition of the airplane is to inspect it yourself or have
someone working for you inspect it. If you decide that an inspection the
depth of an annual inspection is warranted, then so be it...even if the
airplane has just had an annual inspection by someone else, you'll have to
pay someone to do it all over again.

The fact that the plane in question here has just come out of its annual
inspection is meaningless to the buyer.

Pete

[Jon Kraus]

I agree with you 100%. Matter of fact the seller just informed my FBO
that he will not allow the plane to inspected by Byerly Aviation who is
a well respected Mooney shop. I think we are going to pass on this one.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser

Peter Duniho wrote:
> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
>>has just come out of an annual. JK
>
>
> IMHO, an annual inspection done (paid for) by the seller is worthless with
> respect to pre-buy inspection.
>
> I base this on personal experience, having bought a plane that had just had
> an annual inspection done, and yet which still had significant problems,
> including safety issues.
>
> When buying an airplane, you *cannot* delegate ANY inspection of the
> aircraft to the seller or anyone hired by the seller. The only way to know
> for sure the condition of the airplane is to inspect it yourself or have
> someone working for you inspect it. If you decide that an inspection the
> depth of an annual inspection is warranted, then so be it...even if the
> airplane has just had an annual inspection by someone else, you'll have to
> pay someone to do it all over again.
>
> The fact that the plane in question here has just come out of its annual
> inspection is meaningless to the buyer.
>
> Pete
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Lynne Miller wrote:
>
> Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
> worry about a $500 pre-buy.

I wouldn't. My last annual inspection cost less than $500.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jon Kraus wrote:
>
> When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
> has just come out of an annual.

You still want to have an inspection performed to the standards of an annual
inspection by a mechanic you trust. Sellers have been known to obtain a
"pencil-whipped" annual when they know they intend to sell the plane in the near
future.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[Jim Weir]

That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
limits at the time of the inspection.

An annual doesn't tell you that the oil hasn't been changed for two hundred
hours. It doesn't tell you that the tires are down to within a hundredth of an
inch of wear limits. It doesn't tell you that the brakes have less than 10%
service life. It doesn't tell you that the battery has about two tugs left in
it before pooping out completely. Shall I go on?

I don't do prebuys for two reasons. One is that a good prebuy takes me the
better part of 25 hours to do, and I can't charge that kind of money to somebody
who may or may not be the owner of that airplane someday. Two is that I can
actually miss something, by simple oversight or by opinion, that the new owner
will rip me a new one when they have to have that item repaired or replaced.

It just ain't worth it. And I sure as HELL wouldn't consider doing one for
somebody with Kraus' attitude.

Jim



(Lynne Miller)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jon Kraus]

Jim,
ROFLMFAO.. You don't even know me so your comment about my attitude is
laughable. As far as the pre-buy inspection goes the folks that do them
tell me that they take not anywhere near 25 hours to do. Maybe you are
ripping people off (25 + hours is ridiculous) and that is why you aren't
getting any pre-buy business. But then again I don't know you either so
who's to say right? :-)

I would think that a shop that deals with a specific aircraft day in and
day out would be able to point to the "problem" (expensive) areas of the
aircraft in a reasonable amount of time. At least that is what they tell
me. I think Byerly is a reputable firm and if they told me they can do
it in 8 hours I believe them. It is of course your prerogative to
disagree. Huggs and Kisses

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser

Jim Weir wrote:
> That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
> newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
> annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
> limits at the time of the inspection.
>
> An annual doesn't tell you that the oil hasn't been changed for two hundred
> hours. It doesn't tell you that the tires are down to within a hundredth of an
> inch of wear limits. It doesn't tell you that the brakes have less than 10%
> service life. It doesn't tell you that the battery has about two tugs left in
> it before pooping out completely. Shall I go on?
>
> I don't do prebuys for two reasons. One is that a good prebuy takes me the
> better part of 25 hours to do, and I can't charge that kind of money to somebody
> who may or may not be the owner of that airplane someday. Two is that I can
> actually miss something, by simple oversight or by opinion, that the new owner
> will rip me a new one when they have to have that item repaired or replaced.
>
> It just ain't worth it. And I sure as HELL wouldn't consider doing one for
> somebody with Kraus' attitude.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> (Lynne Miller)
> shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
> ->Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection.
>
>
> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> http://www.rst-engr.com

[Dave Butler]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C.

Hi John,

Sorry, I'm a little late to this party, and this is not in direct answer to your
specific question, but be sure you have looked at the Mooney prepurchase
inspection article in the MAPA Log. Surf over to http://www.mooneypilots.com and
click on the link "prepurchase inspections" under "MAPA Log Sample Articles".
Dave

[Jon Kraus]

Thanks Dave. They have some good stuff there !! JK

Dave Butler wrote:

> Jon Kraus wrote:
>
>> My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C.
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> Sorry, I'm a little late to this party, and this is not in direct answer
> to your specific question, but be sure you have looked at the Mooney
> prepurchase inspection article in the MAPA Log. Surf over to
> http://www.mooneypilots.com and click on the link "prepurchase
> inspections" under "MAPA Log Sample Articles".
> Dave
>

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Jon Kraus
> wrote:

> I agree with you 100%. Matter of fact the seller just informed my FBO
> that he will not allow the plane to inspected by Byerly Aviation who is
> a well respected Mooney shop. I think we are going to pass on this one.

something to consider: The seller might not like the shop because
of a bad experience. I know one A&P that I won't let touch my
airplane ever again (but he's not in the IL area).

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

[Morgans]

"if they told me they can do
> it in 8 hours I believe them.

> Jon Kraus

Dream on. You are not very mechanically inclined, are you?
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Carter]

Nope. Don't take my comment out of context, read the whole passage.

--
Jim Carter
"Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: "Jim Carter" >
>
> >I can't understand why some people think the object is to get the lowest
> >price
>
> You're joking, right?
>
>
>
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> Version: 2.6.2
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>
>
>

[Jon Kraus]

Probably more then you are ... you dream on Douggy.... :-)

Morgans wrote:
> "if they told me they can do
>
>>it in 8 hours I believe them.
>
>
>>Jon Kraus
>
>
> Dream on. You are not very mechanically inclined, are you?

[Morgans]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Probably more then you are ... you dream on Douggy.... :-)

Hmm, a bit too sensitive?

Plonk
--
Jim in NC

[Doug]

The oil-in-the-cylinder thing is for the "automotive" type compression
test. There is another way to tell with the "leak down" type test
given to aircraft. A mechanic should be able to tell you if its
valves or rings. They can "hear" it leak with the leakdown test. What
frequently goes on these Lycomings is the camshaft, which will be
valve related on the compression, and that is a major overhaul (tear
the engine apart). If you pull a cylinder, have the mic the cam.

Engine life is always a bit of a gamble. Does it do book speeds and
climb at book rates? Performance is also a good measure, but HARD to
measure accurately.
Is fuel consumption normal for the speeds being flown? That is
probably the easiest way to tell. Use a GPS for you speeds and
compensate for the wind and altitude to get IAS, as that is most
accurate. Airspeed indicators are not always accurate.

If you buy an Mooney, or any airplane like it, you need to be able to
spring for an engine rebuild at any random moment in time. But these
engines can run a long time without needing a rebuild. It partly
depends on you, and how safe you feel with a questionable situation.

I have a similar Lycoming 0360 in my Aviat Husky, and its 2200 on the
tach. Still going strong. No compression problems or oil usage. But it
is 2200 SNEW and has immaculate care.

Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> Doug - Thanks for your remarks. The engine has 420 hours SMOH which
> included a new camshaft, new bearings ect. I'm wondering if the main
> issue (with the low compression) is that the 420 hours has been over 6
> years (and the last year it hardly flew at all). IMHO the plane has not
> been flown enough. Like I said I'm an no expert but wouldn't you think
> that 70 hours a year is a little light on usage? Could this be the
> cause of the low compression on the cylinder? Maybe and mabe not. I have
> a mechanical background but it has been years since I turned a wrench
> but if I remember about compression checks the procedure was to take a
> reading and if it was low then you squirt oil into the low cylinder (wet
> compression check)and if the reading came up then the rings were either
> worn or sticking. This is because the oil would temporarily seal the
> rings but do nothing to seal up the valves. If the reading stayed the
> same then you would suspect a valve problem. Please don't flame me too
> bad on this because it has ben a while since I've done any engine work.
> Although I suspect I'll be doing some owner assisted things with
> whatever plane I end up. :-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student airplane purchaser
>
>
> Doug wrote:
>
> > What is the TT on the engine, and what is the SMOH on the engine? If
> > either are high, you may be in for a total rebuild. ONE cylinder with
> > 62 would concern me. If it's near TBO, you're probably in for a
> > rebuild. Typically as an engine ages, compression goes down and oil
> > usage goes up. Also check to see if the last rebuild included
> > crankshaft bearings, was it a total rebuild or just a top? Look for
> > oil in the front of the engine, this is evidence of main bearings
> > going out. A recently rebuilt engine can have cylinder replacements be
> > successful, but a good engine shouldn't need them. Like I said, if
> > it's near TBO, you're probably in for a rebuild, and if the last
> > rebuild wasn't a major, your probably going to have to major it. Its
> > not worth it to top a high time engine, IMO.
> >
> > You haven't made a deal yet, so you can do whatever you want at this
> > point. Nothing wrong with buying knowing it will need a rebuild so
> > long as the buy price reflects this. You might get lucky and get 500
> > more hours, doing nothing.
> >
> > If the compressions were all good, and no oil usage, you usually can
> > count on 500 more hours, REGARDLESS of the time on the engine.
> > Usually, not always. And nothing unusual about running it past TBO.
> > These Lycomings typically will run well past TBO.
> >
> > Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> >
> >>My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
> >>upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
> >>time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
> >>sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
> >>just finished up an annual inspection on it.
> >>
> >>My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
> >>for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
> >>Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
> >>do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
> >>partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
> >>plane and think the money would be well spent.
> >>
> >>One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
> >>70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
> >>would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
> >>plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
> >>flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
> >>(probably wishful thinking I know).
> >>
> >>I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
> >>Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
> >>described. Thanks!!
> >>
> >>Jon Kraus
> >>PP-ASEL-IA
> >>Student aircraft purchaser

[C Kingsbury]

Bob Noel > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Jon Kraus
> > wrote:
>
> > I agree with you 100%. Matter of fact the seller just informed my FBO
> > that he will not allow the plane to inspected by Byerly Aviation who is
> > a well respected Mooney shop. I think we are going to pass on this one.
>
> something to consider: The seller might not like the shop because
> of a bad experience. I know one A&P that I won't let touch my
> airplane ever again (but he's not in the IL area).

Friend of mine just sold his 172. Before the buyer took it to pre-buy,
he (my friend) had his preferred mechanic do a compression check. One
cylinder was OK (mid 60s) rest in the low 70s. The prospective buyer
takes it to his guy, report comes back, one cylinder shot (58), two
questionable (61-63) and one in the high 60s. None of the results
matched up with the previous comp check. Buyer sez, "I want $2500 off
because I'm going to have to replace three jugs instead of one like
you said." My friend says, OK, how's about we take the plane together,
tomorrow, to a third shop on the same field as your guy and get it
checked there. Buyer says OK, they fly over there, and mechanic #3
does the check with the buyer over his shoulder. Everything within
1psi of the check my friend's mechanic did. Buyer got half his money
back from his (former) mechanic and bought the plane.

If it's a reputable, well-known place, I'd ask the guy for an
explanation of why he won't let you take it there. If the deal looks
good otherwise it might be worth trying to salvage.

-cwk.

[Doug]

There really is no such thing as "a standard pre-buy". A pre buy can
consist of anything you authorize the mechanic to do. First do a
lookup on who that N number is registered to. Are you really dealing
with the owner? What I would then suggest is you check the plane out
as completely as YOU can. Upholstry, paint, hail damage, how if flies,
do the radios, lights, gyros etc work. Make a written list. Get the
logs. See if they have all the annauls (did they skip any).
Transponder, pitot check. Take the logs to a mechanic. Have him check
the gear and the engine and have HIM look at the logs and AD's. Is
there any damage history? How is the repair?

An O360 Mooney is going to run dollarwise:
FIXED COSTS
$?? Hangar or tie down ($500 to $3000)
$1000-2000 insurance depending on pilot, Call Avemco and get a quote
$1500 annual (just the annual part, not the repairs)

HOURLY COSTS
$25 fuel and oil
$10 maintenance (this one is the bigest unknown)
$10 engine reserve


Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> Jim,
> ROFLMFAO.. You don't even know me so your comment about my attitude is
> laughable. As far as the pre-buy inspection goes the folks that do them
> tell me that they take not anywhere near 25 hours to do. Maybe you are
> ripping people off (25 + hours is ridiculous) and that is why you aren't
> getting any pre-buy business. But then again I don't know you either so
> who's to say right? :-)
>
> I would think that a shop that deals with a specific aircraft day in and
> day out would be able to point to the "problem" (expensive) areas of the
> aircraft in a reasonable amount of time. At least that is what they tell
> me. I think Byerly is a reputable firm and if they told me they can do
> it in 8 hours I believe them. It is of course your prerogative to
> disagree. Huggs and Kisses
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> Student airplane purchaser
>
> Jim Weir wrote:
> > That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
> > newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
> > annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
> > limits at the time of the inspection.
> >
> > An annual doesn't tell you that the oil hasn't been changed for two hundred
> > hours. It doesn't tell you that the tires are down to within a hundredth of an
> > inch of wear limits. It doesn't tell you that the brakes have less than 10%
> > service life. It doesn't tell you that the battery has about two tugs left in
> > it before pooping out completely. Shall I go on?
> >
> > I don't do prebuys for two reasons. One is that a good prebuy takes me the
> > better part of 25 hours to do, and I can't charge that kind of money to somebody
> > who may or may not be the owner of that airplane someday. Two is that I can
> > actually miss something, by simple oversight or by opinion, that the new owner
> > will rip me a new one when they have to have that item repaired or replaced.
> >
> > It just ain't worth it. And I sure as HELL wouldn't consider doing one for
> > somebody with Kraus' attitude.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> > (Lynne Miller)
> > shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
> >
> > ->Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection.
> >
> >
> > Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> > VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> > http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jim Weir]

I respectfully disagree. A prebuy inspection is what **I** am comfortable with.
And, as I said, I don't do them, because my comfort level is way to hell and
gone off the top end. I want that person buying that airplane to know every
little wear pattern on the airplane, in stark contrast to my annuals which
certify that no part is beyond wear or airworthiness limits.

I stick to my guns. An annual is 2 hours (more or less) of pure inspection. A
prebuy to my standards is 25 hours or so; that's my 12:1 ratio I talked about.
That's why I don't do them for anybody but myself.

Jim


(Doug)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->There really is no such thing as "a standard pre-buy". A pre buy can
->consist of anything you authorize the mechanic to do.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jon Kraus]

Great advise... As in any business there are those that would take
advantage of others. That is not how I live my life but hey I'm the one
that has to live with "the guy in the mirror". The way that this
situation went down was that the seller didn't give an explaination as
to why he didn't want the pre-buy done at Byerly. As a side note the
sellers good friend was going to go with us to the pre-buy to overse
things.

To my partner and I it just is not worth the hassle of trying to figure
out the reason(s) for the sellers decision. I accept that. We have
decided to get our deposit back and keep on looking. There are many
planes out there and frankly it would have been an odd situation to buy
the first on we looked at. I apprecate everyones posts. Thanks !!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser

C Kingsbury wrote:
> Bob Noel > wrote in message >...
>
>>In article >, Jon Kraus
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I agree with you 100%. Matter of fact the seller just informed my FBO
>>>that he will not allow the plane to inspected by Byerly Aviation who is
>>>a well respected Mooney shop. I think we are going to pass on this one.
>>
>>something to consider: The seller might not like the shop because
>>of a bad experience. I know one A&P that I won't let touch my
>>airplane ever again (but he's not in the IL area).
>
>
> Friend of mine just sold his 172. Before the buyer took it to pre-buy,
> he (my friend) had his preferred mechanic do a compression check. One
> cylinder was OK (mid 60s) rest in the low 70s. The prospective buyer
> takes it to his guy, report comes back, one cylinder shot (58), two
> questionable (61-63) and one in the high 60s. None of the results
> matched up with the previous comp check. Buyer sez, "I want $2500 off
> because I'm going to have to replace three jugs instead of one like
> you said." My friend says, OK, how's about we take the plane together,
> tomorrow, to a third shop on the same field as your guy and get it
> checked there. Buyer says OK, they fly over there, and mechanic #3
> does the check with the buyer over his shoulder. Everything within
> 1psi of the check my friend's mechanic did. Buyer got half his money
> back from his (former) mechanic and bought the plane.
>
> If it's a reputable, well-known place, I'd ask the guy for an
> explanation of why he won't let you take it there. If the deal looks
> good otherwise it might be worth trying to salvage.
>
> -cwk.

[Jon Kraus]

Sensitive enough to stick up for myself yes...

Morgans wrote:

> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Probably more then you are ... you dream on Douggy.... :-)
>
>
> Hmm, a bit too sensitive?
>
> Plonk

[Jon Kraus]

Ummm... wouldn't that be you Libs not me.... ;-)

PLONK, SLAM, DUNK !!!!

Morgans wrote:
> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Probably more then you are ... you dream on Douggy.... :-)
>
>
> Hmm, a bit too sensitive?
>
> Plonk

[[email protected]]

Jim Weir > wrote in message >...
> That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
> newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
> annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
> limits at the time of the inspection.

snipped for length, not content

Heh. Having done waaay mor than fair share of pre-buy's, the best
definition of a pre-buy was the one my old boss (FBO owner, ATP-rated,
designated flight examiner, line pilot, AP/IA, new/used broker) gave
to my wife.

I was in the next hangar "inspecting" with the seller, the seller's
broker, the prospective buyer, and the prospective buyer's broker.

"Where's my husband?"

"He's next door taking it in the ass."

Pre-buy's suck, there is no formal definition under the FAR, and to do
a proper one (as you indicate) takes an incredible amount of time,
depending on the age/condition of the plane & maintenance records
being inspected.

Another "selling" broker's comment-

"I've never had anyone take two days to do a pre-buy on a single"

My response-

"Don't come back"

Have had quite a few where the aircraft, by definition, was
unairworthy (9 times out of 10 due to paperwork issues). As a
technician/inspector, my only "legal" recourse is of course to inform
the pilot/operator, and walk away.

My all-time favorites are ships recently brought back into the States.
Plus the ones that have had recent blank-check periodic inspections
from so-called "premier" make/model specific maintenance facilities
and are absolute pieces of (insert excrement of choice). Bonanza's and
Mooney's tend to fall into that category, sorry to say.

Regards;

TC

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jon Kraus wrote:
>
> As far as the pre-buy inspection goes the folks that do them
> tell me that they take not anywhere near 25 hours to do.

An A&P with experience with Maules can do an annual inspection of my aircraft in
something like 18 hours. That includes all the "grunt work" that I normally do
myself. I don't find it hard to believe that someone who's really trying to do a good
job of finding every problem they reasonably can would take a few hours longer.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[Morgans]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Great advise... As in any business there are those that would take
> advantage of others.
>
> To my partner and I it just is not worth the hassle of trying to figure
> out the reason(s) for the sellers decision. I accept that. We have
> decided to get our deposit back and keep on looking. There are many
> planes out there and frankly it would have been an odd situation to buy
> the first on we looked at. I apprecate everyones posts. Thanks !!
>
> Jon Kraus

Good choice. When something does not feel right, it isn't.

I do agree with Jim W's opinion about a pre buy inspection. It should be
much more in depth than an annual. Find out what "might" have to be
replaced in the next couple/few years, vs. an annual telling you what "has"
to be replaced, right now. Also, take the time to get AD compliance well
researched, and title checked.

But you knew that, already, right? <G>
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Sensitive enough to stick up for myself yes...

I was a bit harsh. What I meant to say, was it is better off, from a
mechanic's viewpoint, to really take the time to tear into things, (not just
look on the surface) to find all the things that will cost you money down
the road, with an airplane you do not own yet.

With an airplane you already own, you will have to suck it up and keep
fixing things as they come up. It will take less time inspecting it, to do
that. IMHO
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Carter]

Did you miss the phrase "...when the object should be to make an honest
deal"? Coins in the pocket is more important than honor to a lot of people
today, but that doesn't justify changing an agreed upon price
INDISCRIMINATELY.

I believe if you read my posts, you will see that I agreed that the
tentative, fair price should be negotiated before the pre-buy. If something
else turns up in the pre-buy that I wasn't aware of during the previous
negotiations, then I'd absolutely renegotiate based on new information. On
the other hand, if nothing turned up that I wasn't already aware of, the
honorable thing to do would be to conclude the deal based on the previously
determined fair price.

How can you disagree with this approach?

--
Jim Carter

[Jon Kraus]

I agree that you should take the time to look into things throughly too.
I suppose that you can take this to extremes too (either way, too little
time or too much time). I certainly want to have an "expert" check out
the aircraft and associated logs carefully. My thought was that this
particular shop (Byerly) would be well prepared to do this. As far at
the time goes for how long the pre-buy would take I was just going by
what the shop said. Anyway no harm no foul. The search continues. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser

Morgans wrote:
> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Sensitive enough to stick up for myself yes...
>
>
> I was a bit harsh. What I meant to say, was it is better off, from a
> mechanic's viewpoint, to really take the time to tear into things, (not just
> look on the surface) to find all the things that will cost you money down
> the road, with an airplane you do not own yet.
>
> With an airplane you already own, you will have to suck it up and keep
> fixing things as they come up. It will take less time inspecting it, to do
> that. IMHO