Reading R.A.O. pays off

[The Weiss Family]

All the snooping in the newsgroup just paid off...I think!
I just closed the deal on my first airplane.
Based on my mission profile and the things I learned from the newsgroup, I
had the following objectives:

1. Must be able to *legally* fit my wife and three (small) kids.
2. 180 HP or greater (high density altitude)
3. Mid-time engine
4. Decent P&I
5. Decent radios (I'm VFR, so not too fancy)
6. Work an annual into the deal

Well, I found a 1966 A23-24 Super Musketeer.
Goal 1 was met, since this has the third row bench seat.
Goal 2 was met: IO-360-A2B, 200HP
Goal 3 was met: 1050 SMOH, 2000 TBO
Goal 4 was met: 2003 paint (absolutely beautiful), Interior is clean
Goal 5 --- couple of KX-170B's, one with G/S, not exactly what I had in mind
Goal 6 --- not met....at first....

The owner was reluctant to budge from his asking price.
So, I stuck to his asking price, and had him throw in a GPS (Airmap 1000,
avionics just got better).
I also negotiated that he annual the plane (it was due in Nov).
There was a small oil leak that was not initally disclosed (or known about,
I think). Now he's taking care of it.
He also threw in a bunch of miscellaneous stuff, like headsets, an
additional intercom, manuals, etc.

All in all, I'm happy with the deal. I'm glad I gleaned some info from this
group.
I CAN'T WAIT TO GO PICK IT UP!!
It'll be about three weeks when the annual is done and my finances are in
order.
I'm also looking forward to flying it back from TX to NV.

I'll pre-empt Jay Honeck, and say that I'm happy to be offically in debt as
much as the rest of you!
But at least I have a full 12 months until I get raked over the coals at my
first annual.

Adam Weiss
PP-ASEL
soon to be N7966L -- Super Musketeer!

[john smith]

Good airplane, Beech-built, solid!
Handles well, roomy interior, good visibility.
Trailing link landing gear gives smooth landings.
Not a speedster, though.

The Weiss Family wrote:
> All the snooping in the newsgroup just paid off...I think!
> I just closed the deal on my first airplane.
> Based on my mission profile and the things I learned from the newsgroup, I
> had the following objectives:
>
> 1. Must be able to *legally* fit my wife and three (small) kids.
> 2. 180 HP or greater (high density altitude)
> 3. Mid-time engine
> 4. Decent P&I
> 5. Decent radios (I'm VFR, so not too fancy)
> 6. Work an annual into the deal
>
> Well, I found a 1966 A23-24 Super Musketeer.
> Goal 1 was met, since this has the third row bench seat.
> Goal 2 was met: IO-360-A2B, 200HP
> Goal 3 was met: 1050 SMOH, 2000 TBO
> Goal 4 was met: 2003 paint (absolutely beautiful), Interior is clean
> Goal 5 --- couple of KX-170B's, one with G/S, not exactly what I had in mind
> Goal 6 --- not met....at first....
>
> The owner was reluctant to budge from his asking price.
> So, I stuck to his asking price, and had him throw in a GPS (Airmap 1000,
> avionics just got better).
> I also negotiated that he annual the plane (it was due in Nov).
> There was a small oil leak that was not initally disclosed (or known about,
> I think). Now he's taking care of it.
> He also threw in a bunch of miscellaneous stuff, like headsets, an
> additional intercom, manuals, etc.
>
> All in all, I'm happy with the deal. I'm glad I gleaned some info from this
> group.
> I CAN'T WAIT TO GO PICK IT UP!!
> It'll be about three weeks when the annual is done and my finances are in
> order.
> I'm also looking forward to flying it back from TX to NV.
>
> I'll pre-empt Jay Honeck, and say that I'm happy to be offically in debt as
> much as the rest of you!
> But at least I have a full 12 months until I get raked over the coals at my
> first annual.
>
> Adam Weiss
> PP-ASEL
> soon to be N7966L -- Super Musketeer!
>
>

[Howard Nelson]

> > 5. Decent radios (I'm VFR, so not too fancy)

> > Goal 5 --- couple of KX-170B's, one with G/S, not exactly what I had in
mind

Actually they might turn out to very decent radios esp. if you are only vfr
and multiple backup freqs. are not that important. They perform well, are
built like tanks, legal and parts are still available.

Howard
..



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[tony roberts]

Congratulations - I fly in my friends plane - same model.
Great all round aircraft - big useful load, decent cruise speed & range.
Downside - parts cost a fortune - try C$1600.00 for a mixture cable -
ouch! My friend bought a non Beech cable instead (I believe it was
actually a Cessna one) for less that C$100.00.
Fuel selector valve C$2500.00
But I still love it - I'm looking for one for myself at the moment -
with the 200hp. I was told that the 200 hp models were all originally
sold as military trainers - don't know how true that is.

I'm sure you will enjoy it.

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Jay Honeck]

> I CAN'T WAIT TO GO PICK IT UP!!

Heh. I remember THAT feeling well...

;-)

Enjoy it, man -- you've earned it.

> I'll pre-empt Jay Honeck, and say that I'm happy to be offically in debt
as
> much as the rest of you!

You will love every minute of your plane -- even as it sucks you
relentlessly toward that black hole of aviation oblivion known
as...ownership.

Still, NOTHING is better than owning your own plane. Have fun!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[The Weiss Family]

> Downside - parts cost a fortune - try C$1600.00 for a mixture cable -
> ouch! My friend bought a non Beech cable instead (I believe it was
> actually a Cessna one) for less that C$100.00.

Can you do that? If so, I'm definitely going to go that route!

> But I still love it - I'm looking for one for myself at the moment -
> with the 200hp. I was told that the 200 hp models were all originally
> sold as military trainers - don't know how true that is.

There is one (actually two, mine's one of them) on Trade-A-Plane.
There is another A23 with a 200HP conversion on www.controller.com
It actually looks like a sweet deal, but I needed the third row seat.

Adam

[The Weiss Family]

> Actually they might turn out to very decent radios esp. if you are only
vfr
> and multiple backup freqs. are not that important. They perform well, are
> built like tanks, legal and parts are still available.

You know, you're probably right. For my needs they'll work great.
They're just not as glamorous as a digital flip-flop type.

Adam

[The Weiss Family]

> Good airplane, Beech-built, solid!
> Handles well, roomy interior, good visibility.
> Trailing link landing gear gives smooth landings.
> Not a speedster, though.

All reasons why I like it so much (except the last one), but I'm in no hurry
;-)

[The Weiss Family]

Jay,

Are you still planning on flying out for the air races next week?
Let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

Adam

[Javier Henderson]

"The Weiss Family" > writes:

> > Actually they might turn out to very decent radios esp. if you are only
> vfr
> > and multiple backup freqs. are not that important. They perform well, are
> > built like tanks, legal and parts are still available.
>
> You know, you're probably right. For my needs they'll work great.
> They're just not as glamorous as a digital flip-flop type.

I hereby wager $1.00 that the KX170's will outlast everything else
in the airplane.

-jav

[Javier Henderson]

"The Weiss Family" > writes:

> > Downside - parts cost a fortune - try C$1600.00 for a mixture cable -
> > ouch! My friend bought a non Beech cable instead (I believe it was
> > actually a Cessna one) for less that C$100.00.
>
> Can you do that? If so, I'm definitely going to go that route!

Get McFarlane's catalog, they have the best cables. I replaced
the push-pull mixture in my Skylane with a vernier control. Very
smooth action. As a bonus, that is one company that is really
into keeping customers happy.

-jav

[[email protected]]

On 11-Sep-2004, "The Weiss Family" > wrote:

> I also negotiated that he annual the plane (it was due in Nov).


Do I understand correctly that the seller is going to perform an annual as a
condition of sale? Is he an A&P, or do you mean he is going to PAY for it?
If the latter, who chose the shop? What incentive does he (the seller) have
to do anything beyond the absolute minimum to get the annual signed off? In
this airplane, the cost difference between a "barely legal" annual and a
"responsible" one could be thousands of dollars, depending upon how
diligently the plane has been maintained in the past.

That said, for all I know everything is ship-shape with the plane and you
will be very happy with it. Congratulations!

--
-Elliott Drucker

[Elwood Dowd]

Yes, you can get field approval for a standard cable from Aircraft Spruce.

Come join us at musketeermail
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/musketeermail> as well as the Beech Aero
Club <http://www.beechaeroclub.org>

Many congratulations on the plane!

[The Weiss Family]

> Do I understand correctly that the seller is going to perform an annual as
a
> condition of sale? Is he an A&P, or do you mean he is going to PAY for
it?

He is going to pay for it.

> If the latter, who chose the shop? What incentive does he (the seller)
have
> to do anything beyond the absolute minimum to get the annual signed off?
In
> this airplane, the cost difference between a "barely legal" annual and a
> "responsible" one could be thousands of dollars, depending upon how
> diligently the plane has been maintained in the past.

Judging by the current condition of the plane, I think it has been well
maintained.
Also, the owner doesn't expect any high-cost items in the annual (aside from
fixing the small oil leak).
We did agree that if something else comes up that costs more than $500, he
may refuse to pay for it (basically I will have to, if I want to, or we can
can the whole deal). My feeling is that he will probably fix it. Since he
will either have to disclose any airworthiness issues to another potential
buyer, and adjust his asking price, or he will have to fix it. My guess is
that he will not want to find another buyer, and he'll just go ahead and fix
it...

> That said, for all I know everything is ship-shape with the plane and you
> will be very happy with it. Congratulations!

Thanks, and I'm hoping it all works out, too...

Adam

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Javier Henderson > wrote:
>I hereby wager $1.00 that the KX170's will outlast everything else
>in the airplane.

....because they will be sitting, yellow-tagged, on some tech's shelf
after he replaces them with something else. ;-)

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Jay Honeck]

> Are you still planning on flying out for the air races next week?
> Let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

Thanks, Adam. Yep, after at least 10 revisions in our arrangements, we're
still planning on departing Wednesday for Reno.

In the unlikely event that we actually make it all the way to Grass Valley
in one day, we will be camping in Jim Weir and Gail Allinson's back yard on
Wednesday night.

Then it's off to the races for a few days (although I quite frankly have
forgotten how we're getting to the race itself. Was that your car we're
borrowing, or Jim's? :-), spending a couple of nights in a hotel (where the
folks who were supposed to accompany us have made reservations. They have
had to cancel their trip...), and then spending Sunday night back at Jim's
again before departing for home on Monday morning.

Whew! I'll bet everyone here a nickel that this trip doesn't go off as
planned, for two simple reasons:

1) We're traveling across the continent VFR
2) We've just experienced 8 perfect, cloudless days in a row here in the
Midwest.

That can't continue, can it?

We'll see!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

The Weiss Family wrote:
>
> I just closed the deal on my first airplane.

Congrats! Sounds like you did very well.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[Newps]

The Weiss Family wrote:

>
> Judging by the current condition of the plane, I think it has been well
> maintained.

That may be and hopefully it has been. However this guy is now your
enemy, sort of.


> Also, the owner doesn't expect any high-cost items in the annual (aside from
> fixing the small oil leak).
> We did agree that if something else comes up that costs more than $500, he
> may refuse to pay for it (basically I will have to, if I want to, or we can
> can the whole deal).

Wrong way to go about it. He should be responsible for any item
affecting airworthiness, regardless of the cost.

[tony roberts]

> There is one (actually two, mine's one of them) on Trade-A-Plane.
> There is another A23 with a 200HP conversion on www.controller.com
> It actually looks like a sweet deal, but I needed the third row seat.

Hi Adam
I couldn't find the ones on Trade-A-Plane (I'm not a member - strange
that non members can't search, being that their reason for existing is
to sell planes) but I did look at the www.controller.com one and I am
interested - I emailed it to some friends who own that model and I'll
let you know if I pursue it. Thanks for the heads up

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Martin Kosina]

> Do I understand correctly that the seller is going to perform an annual as a
> condition of sale? Is he an A&P, or do you mean he is going to PAY for it?
> If the latter, who chose the shop? What incentive does he (the seller) have
> to do anything beyond the absolute minimum to get the annual signed off?

Yeah, I hope the written agreement is the airplane will be annualed
*and* returned to service (two completely separate steps that can be
performed by different people, the latter of which does not need to be
an IA). A mere "annual inspection" is just that, an inspection and
associated writeup of discrepanies. It has no other meaning.

> The cost difference between a "barely legal" annual and a
> "responsible" one could be thousands of dollars, depending upon how
> diligently the plane has been maintained in the past.

Right, or again, that's the difference between an annual *inspection*
(even a really good one), and subsequent return to service. The
inspection part should be a fairly predictable fixed-cost deal, if I
were the seller that's how I would interpret my end of the bargain (+
the $500 allowance mentioned).

> That said, for all I know everything is ship-shape with the plane and you
> will be very happy with it. Congratulations!

Yes, seems like a good situation overall, I wouldn't be too worried.
Sounds like you guys have the "surprise" scenario worked out in form
of an escape clause of some sort. As someone else pointed out, not the
best way to approach it (you really wanted to stipulate airworthiness,
not completion of an inspection), but you'll be most likely OK.

Good luck !

[Jim Weir]

(Martin Kosina)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:


A mere "annual inspection" is just that, an inspection and
->associated writeup of discrepanies. It has no other meaning.

That is not quite true. The annual inspection is the certification that the
aircraft meets minimum airworthiness requirements. Writeup of discrepancies has
absolutely nothing to do with it. The aircraft is either airworthy or it is
not; there is no "almost" category going either way.


->Right, or again, that's the difference between an annual *inspection*
->(even a really good one), and subsequent return to service.

There is no such thing as a "really good...annual inspection" with the possible
exception of the IA missing an item that has gone out of limits. That is a BAD
inspection. If you mean a nitpicky inspection (NOT an annual inspection) that
will pick up such things as tires worn to NEAR limits or brakes worn to NEAR
limits or cylinders NEAR limits or bearings NEAR limits, that is a totally
different kettle of bratwurst.

Jim
Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Adam Aulick]

"The Weiss Family" > wrote in message >...
> All the snooping in the newsgroup just paid off...I think!
> I just closed the deal on my first airplane.
> Based on my mission profile and the things I learned from the newsgroup, I
> had the following objectives:
>
> 1. Must be able to *legally* fit my wife and three (small) kids.
[snip]

Excellent! When you get your hands on the plane, will you give
us all a report on how well it holds your family?
(How hard is it to get everybody in, how much luggage space is
left with the third seat, any W&B issues, how accessible is
the kid stowed in baggage during the flight, does putting one
kid in front and wife in the middle work, how is your climb
fully loaded, etc. etc. as long as you have patience.)

I'm looking at doing exactly the same thing.

~Adam Aulick
(any email replies to a u l i c k at s o l t e c . n e t)

[The Weiss Family]

"Adam Aulick" > wrote in message
om...

> Excellent! When you get your hands on the plane, will you give
> us all a report on how well it holds your family?
> (How hard is it to get everybody in, how much luggage space is
> left with the third seat, any W&B issues, how accessible is
> the kid stowed in baggage during the flight, does putting one
> kid in front and wife in the middle work, how is your climb
> fully loaded, etc. etc. as long as you have patience.)
>
> I'm looking at doing exactly the same thing.
>
> ~Adam Aulick
> (any email replies to a u l i c k at s o l t e c . n e t)

You can bet there will be an endless number of reports about the new plane.
You guys will probably get sick of hearing about it ;-)

Adam Weiss
PP-ASEL
Soon to be owner of N7966L

[xyzzy]

>
> There is no such thing as a "really good...annual inspection" with the possible
> exception of the IA missing an item that has gone out of limits. That is a BAD
> inspection. If you mean a nitpicky inspection (NOT an annual inspection) that
> will pick up such things as tires worn to NEAR limits or brakes worn to NEAR
> limits or cylinders NEAR limits or bearings NEAR limits, that is a totally
> different kettle of bratwurst.

Hopefully they will also verify that the "substantial" damage from the
1975 crash was properly fixed (though it was long enough ago that it may
not matter, but still, something to look for ...)

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=50128&key=0