Ceconite Wings Question

[Captain Wubba]

Hello. I'm considering purchasing a plane that has Ceconite wings.
They were recovered last year professionally, and according to an A&P
I asked to have a quick look, were done well and correctly, and have a
UV protectant. My question is the following: I don't have access to a
hanger. This plane would be exposed to the elements in the Midwest.
How long could I expect to fly this plane before the Ceconite would
need replacement? Is there an average 'lifespan' for this type of wing
covering if exposed to the elements?

Thanks,

Cap

[zatatime]

On 13 Oct 2004 06:45:58 -0700, (Captain
Wubba) wrote:

>Hello. I'm considering purchasing a plane that has Ceconite wings.
>They were recovered last year professionally, and according to an A&P
>I asked to have a quick look, were done well and correctly, and have a
>UV protectant. My question is the following: I don't have access to a
>hanger. This plane would be exposed to the elements in the Midwest.
>How long could I expect to fly this plane before the Ceconite would
>need replacement? Is there an average 'lifespan' for this type of wing
>covering if exposed to the elements?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Cap

The fabric that is used to cover airplanes is all the same. What is
different is how it is "painted." If this was done with Nitrate and
Butyrate dopes with an aluminum coat as the UV protection you should
expect to get about 7 years out of it. If it was completed with the
Stits process, I've seen airplanes outside for 15+ years and they
still are in very good shape.

You may get more than 7 out of the dope as well, but it depends on
alot like how much shade, temps, etc...I'd like to say 10+, but I'm
staying conservative.

HTH.
z

[dave]

My citabria was covered ten years ago with ceconite. The fabric is
perfect. The white paint is okay, the red has faded. It's now
hangered so I expect to get a lot more life out of it. Most people
I've spoke to prior to buying my plane said twenty years for a well done
fabric job that's taken care of. I've seen nearly new american
champion citabrias with cracked paint. A friend has a piper colt that
was covered with ceconite 25 years ago but always hangered. It's like
new.

You really have to get it checked by an A&P that works on fabric airplanes.

Dave
68 7ECA

Captain Wubba wrote:
> Hello. I'm considering purchasing a plane that has Ceconite wings.
> They were recovered last year professionally, and according to an A&P
> I asked to have a quick look, were done well and correctly, and have a
> UV protectant. My question is the following: I don't have access to a
> hanger. This plane would be exposed to the elements in the Midwest.
> How long could I expect to fly this plane before the Ceconite would
> need replacement? Is there an average 'lifespan' for this type of wing
> covering if exposed to the elements?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Cap

[john smith]

One theory is to not go more than ten years without recovering.
The theory being that after that much time exposed to the elements, you
would want to strip everything off to thoroughly inspect the airframe
for corrosion.

dave wrote:
> My citabria was covered ten years ago with ceconite. The fabric is
> perfect. The white paint is okay, the red has faded. It's now
> hangered so I expect to get a lot more life out of it. Most people
> I've spoke to prior to buying my plane said twenty years for a well done
> fabric job that's taken care of. I've seen nearly new american
> champion citabrias with cracked paint. A friend has a piper colt that
> was covered with ceconite 25 years ago but always hangered. It's like new.
>
> You really have to get it checked by an A&P that works on fabric airplanes.
>
> Dave
> 68 7ECA
>
> Captain Wubba wrote:
>
>> Hello. I'm considering purchasing a plane that has Ceconite wings.
>> They were recovered last year professionally, and according to an A&P
>> I asked to have a quick look, were done well and correctly, and have a
>> UV protectant. My question is the following: I don't have access to a
>> hanger. This plane would be exposed to the elements in the Midwest.
>> How long could I expect to fly this plane before the Ceconite would
>> need replacement? Is there an average 'lifespan' for this type of wing
>> covering if exposed to the elements?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Cap

[Kyle Boatright]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> One theory is to not go more than ten years without recovering.
> The theory being that after that much time exposed to the elements, you
> would want to strip everything off to thoroughly inspect the airframe for
> corrosion.
>

The 10 year replacement theory is a great "perfect world" idea, but most
folks who are not named Buffet, Gates, Kennedy, etc. simply can't afford the
cost. Cover jobs are expensive. Real expensive. As in 4 years of college
tuition expensive, or downpayment on a small house expensive. Since the
sky isn't raining old rag wings, the 15-20 year re-cover cycle appears to be
adequate...

KB

[dave]

I've heard that too but more like twenty years. If I needed to inspect
every little nook and crany of a fabric covered airplane every ten years
then why not a metal covered one?

john smith wrote:

> One theory is to not go more than ten years without recovering.
> The theory being that after that much time exposed to the elements, you
> would want to strip everything off to thoroughly inspect the airframe
> for corrosion.
>
> dave wrote:
>
>> My citabria was covered ten years ago with ceconite. The fabric is
>> perfect. The white paint is okay, the red has faded. It's now
>> hangered so I expect to get a lot more life out of it. Most people
>> I've spoke to prior to buying my plane said twenty years for a well
>> done fabric job that's taken care of. I've seen nearly new american
>> champion citabrias with cracked paint. A friend has a piper colt
>> that was covered with ceconite 25 years ago but always hangered. It's
>> like new.
>>
>> You really have to get it checked by an A&P that works on fabric
>> airplanes.
>>
>> Dave
>> 68 7ECA
>>
>> Captain Wubba wrote:
>>
>>> Hello. I'm considering purchasing a plane that has Ceconite wings.
>>> They were recovered last year professionally, and according to an A&P
>>> I asked to have a quick look, were done well and correctly, and have a
>>> UV protectant. My question is the following: I don't have access to a
>>> hanger. This plane would be exposed to the elements in the Midwest.
>>> How long could I expect to fly this plane before the Ceconite would
>>> need replacement? Is there an average 'lifespan' for this type of wing
>>> covering if exposed to the elements?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Cap
>
>

[Michael]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote
> The 10 year replacement theory is a great "perfect world" idea, but most
> folks who are not named Buffet, Gates, Kennedy, etc. simply can't afford the
> cost. Cover jobs are expensive. Real expensive. As in 4 years of college
> tuition expensive, or downpayment on a small house expensive. Since the
> sky isn't raining old rag wings, the 15-20 year re-cover cycle appears to be
> adequate.

Well, yes - but most old rag wings are hangared. I would have no
problem with a 20 year cycle for a hangared bird, but if it sits
outside for 10 years it probably needs recover.

Michael

[dave]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message >...
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > One theory is to not go more than ten years without recovering.
> > The theory being that after that much time exposed to the elements, you
> > would want to strip everything off to thoroughly inspect the airframe for
> > corrosion.
> >
>
> The 10 year replacement theory is a great "perfect world" idea, but most
> folks who are not named Buffet, Gates, Kennedy, etc. simply can't afford the
> cost. Cover jobs are expensive. Real expensive. As in 4 years of college
> tuition expensive, or downpayment on a small house expensive. Since the
> sky isn't raining old rag wings, the 15-20 year re-cover cycle appears to be
> adequate...
>
> KB

There is no life limit on the new fabric material. UV is its only
weakness.
If the dope or paint has been put on properly, it will last as long as
the coatings last.
The coatings can get re-vitalized from time to time to keep them
plyable.
There is no reason why fabric can't last 20,30-40+ years if you don't
let the sun get to the fabric.

Like any airplane, the structure needs to be inspected whether it has
fabric or aluminum for covering.

Dave

[Montblack]

("dave" wrote)
> I've heard that too but more like twenty years. If I needed to inspect
> every little nook and crany of a fabric covered airplane every ten years
> then why not a metal covered one?


I was thinking that too - I'm whimsically looking at a 1946 Ercoupe, which is
going up
for auction this Saturday (16th). There's a beaten up Cessna 140 there also.
Pole barn projects that are soon to be someone else's problem ... I mean
project. Both are planes that will need much time and much money thrown their
way before they get in the air again.

What Kyle was saying about costs - What's a guess on the material cost (only)
for redoing a fabric covered airplane? How much of that college tuition level
price tag is material vs. labor?


Montblack

[Rick Macklem]

john smith > wrote in message >...
> One theory is to not go more than ten years without recovering.
> The theory being that after that much time exposed to the elements, you
> would want to strip everything off to thoroughly inspect the airframe
> for corrosion.
>
> dave wrote:
> > My citabria was covered ten years ago with ceconite. The fabric is
> > perfect. The white paint is okay, the red has faded. It's now
> > hangered so I expect to get a lot more life out of it. Most people
> > I've spoke to prior to buying my plane said twenty years for a well done
> > fabric job that's taken care of. I've seen nearly new american
> > champion citabrias with cracked paint. A friend has a piper colt that
> > was covered with ceconite 25 years ago but always hangered. It's like new.
> >
> > You really have to get it checked by an A&P that works on fabric airplanes.
> >
> > Dave
> > 68 7ECA
> >
I'm far from an expert on this, but I'll add a couple of things I've
heard, plus second what Dave said w.r.t. checking with an A&P that
does fabric work.

Ceconite uses non-tautening Butrate dope (not quite the same stuff
that is
used with cotton). Over time the plasticizer will leach out, resulting
in the
dope getting brittle and starting to crack. This can be remedied by
using a
"dope rejuvenator", if done soon enough. The only thing that damages
the fabric,
(short of hail or fire) is UV light. The silver dope protects it, but
cracks in
the dope can let the UV through.

Most fabric covered aircraft were designed when Cotton was the best
covering
available, and it lasted 10 years, at most. As such, the engineers
assumed the
underlying structure would be examined/repaired at least every 10
years. Some
aircraft now have a lot more inspection holes in the wing fabric than
they
would have had when they left the factory, to try and inspect the
internal
structure. Whether the internal structure is wood or metal is also a
consideration. (Inspecting wood with a flashlight and mirror on a
stick is
a specialized skill that not all A&Ps will have.)

Just what I've been told, rick

[G.R. Patterson III]

Montblack wrote:
>
> What Kyle was saying about costs - What's a guess on the material cost (only)
> for redoing a fabric covered airplane? How much of that college tuition level
> price tag is material vs. labor?

A pre-sewn Ceconite envelope for a Citrabia will set you back $487 at Aircraft
Spruce. You will also need tools, cement, and a silver coat dope sold by Randolph for
the Ceconite system. The dope and cement will set you back about $150. The final
finish can be either Butyrate dope or Polyurethane. Costs vary on that. The full
cost, not counting tools, will come in around $800 for that plane.

To give you an idea of the labor costs, Maule Flight quoted me a price of $12,000 to
recover and paint my aircraft. Only the fuselage and rudder are fabric-covered on
that. Aircraft Spruce does not sell an envelope for my plane (the fabric is glued on
in sections on the MX-7), but the envelope for an earlier model Maule is less than
$230.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[dave]

I found some fabric planes when I was shopping that needed to be
recovered. I was told by two different shops to figure 20-25k. It's
not the material, it the labor. One other thing to consider - try to
use a shop that does not use presewn envelopes. The seams stand proud.
A good shop simply stocks fabric on the roll and doesn't need or
benefit from using envelopes.

Ever see old furniture that sat near a window? The fabric gets dry and
tears easily. Furniture stored away from sunlight isn't faded and
remains pliable. Similar problem with fabric. UV is the killer.

As far as planes being designed with the intention of ripping it apart
every ten years for inspection, I've heard that too but I think that's
nonsense. Does anyone believe that somebody would design a part to last
ten years? The structure of the airplane is designed for the stress
the airframe will be subjected too.

One advantage of fabric - it doesn't dent.

Montblack wrote:
> ("dave" wrote)
>
>>I've heard that too but more like twenty years. If I needed to inspect
>>every little nook and crany of a fabric covered airplane every ten years
>>then why not a metal covered one?
>
>
>
> I was thinking that too - I'm whimsically looking at a 1946 Ercoupe, which is
> going up
> for auction this Saturday (16th). There's a beaten up Cessna 140 there also.
> Pole barn projects that are soon to be someone else's problem ... I mean
> project. Both are planes that will need much time and much money thrown their
> way before they get in the air again.
>
> What Kyle was saying about costs - What's a guess on the material cost (only)
> for redoing a fabric covered airplane? How much of that college tuition level
> price tag is material vs. labor?
>
>
> Montblack
>
>

[Dave Stadt]

"dave" > wrote in message
...
> I found some fabric planes when I was shopping that needed to be
> recovered. I was told by two different shops to figure 20-25k. It's
> not the material, it the labor. One other thing to consider - try to
> use a shop that does not use presewn envelopes. The seams stand proud.
> A good shop simply stocks fabric on the roll and doesn't need or
> benefit from using envelopes.
>
> Ever see old furniture that sat near a window? The fabric gets dry and
> tears easily. Furniture stored away from sunlight isn't faded and
> remains pliable. Similar problem with fabric. UV is the killer.

If the fabric is properly finished UV is not a problem. Part of the
covering process STC requires UV protection be applied as one of the
finishing steps.

[Doug]

The bottom line, is you don't know.
If it is a modern job with quality paint that will hold up to the UV,
20 years. More if you hangar it. But after 20 years, there may be
enough dings to consider recover. It varies a LOT. Outside, if in the
shade or a climate that is cloudy, I have seen 20 years. But in
Arizona sun, you'd be lucky to get 10.

Conventional wisdom gives a TBO of 20 years, on fabric.
If you hangar it, indefinitely. But again, you might ding it and patch
it.

I have the newer polyurethane on my hangared Husky, it is a 1996 and
NO sign of ANY degradation. I have three signifigant dings (all
repaired to airworthy). Should make 20 years. But who knows for sure.
I guess we should make an fabric reserve of $1000 a year for a 20k
refinish. But it costs nearly that to paint aluminum, so there is not
much difference.

(Captain Wubba) wrote in message >...
> Hello. I'm considering purchasing a plane that has Ceconite wings.
> They were recovered last year professionally, and according to an A&P
> I asked to have a quick look, were done well and correctly, and have a
> UV protectant. My question is the following: I don't have access to a
> hanger. This plane would be exposed to the elements in the Midwest.
> How long could I expect to fly this plane before the Ceconite would
> need replacement? Is there an average 'lifespan' for this type of wing
> covering if exposed to the elements?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Cap

[Paul Anton]

>
> I was thinking that too - I'm whimsically looking at a 1946 Ercoupe, which
> is
> going up
> for auction this Saturday (16th).

I recovered a set of Ercoupe wings a couple of years back. Total cost for
materials using the Poly-Fiber system was a little over $1000, including
everything spent for metal work and finish coats.

Cheers:
Paul