Re: Do you log airborne time, or aircraft moving time?

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 22:15:53 +0100, Peter > wrote:

>I am referring to airframe/engine/propeller logs, not pilot's logbook.

In the US, those times are tach times (times when the engine is running).
It is generally NOT logged at all by pilots (nor is there any requirement
for the pilot to log those times).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Fly]

U.S. FAR's cite that pilot can log all time in operation of airplane.
Time for maintenance purposes is for purposes of flight and means that time
the wheels are not on the ground.

Some operators have a hobbs meter activated by sqwat switch.

Kent Felkins
Tulsa Oklahoma



"Peter" > wrote in message
...
> I am referring to airframe/engine/propeller logs, not pilot's logbook.
>
> FAR says one should log the time the aircraft is in motion. However I
> understand some people log airborne time only.
>
> Any views?
>
> Here in the UK, under G-reg, we can log airborne time for all
> maintenance purposes, and brakes-off to brakes-on in the pilot's
> logbook.
>
>
> Peter.
> --
> Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
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[David Megginson]

Peter wrote:

> FAR says one should log the time the aircraft is in motion. However I
> understand some people log airborne time only.
>
> Any views?
>
> Here in the UK, under G-reg, we can log airborne time for all
> maintenance purposes, and brakes-off to brakes-on in the pilot's
> logbook.

That's the same as Canada. Our aircraft journey log has columns for both
flight time (from when the plane starts moving to when it stops) and air
time (wheels up to wheels down). Flight time goes into the pilot's logbook,
and air time goes into the maintenance log.


All the best,


David

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Peter
> wrote:

> I am referring to airframe/engine/propeller logs, not pilot's logbook.

I use tach time.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Peter
> wrote:

> >> I am referring to airframe/engine/propeller logs, not pilot's logbook.

[snip]
> The FAR book suggests
>
> >Flight time means:
> >(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under
> >its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the
> >aircraft comes to rest after landing
>
> that maintenance should be based on total time in motion, and I
> wondered how many people do that. It would increase hours-based
> maintenance costs (e.g. the engine fund) by 15-25% depending on how
> much time one typically spends on the ground.

I'm confused. Are you talking about time for maintenance purposes
or pilot time? Your original statement made me think you were asking
about maintenance logs. If so, then FAA suggestions regarding
"pilot time" are not relavant.

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

[Bushy]

As you are asking in rec.aviation.OWNING, how do you log the hours in your
pilots log book?

Do you expect this to correlate with your aircraft log book?

Will the inspector when he compares the two?

And if your are in the "Land of the Free?", how do you expect the jury to
see it?

Hope this helps,
Peter

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 08:11:18 +0100, Peter > wrote:

>The FAR book suggests
>
>>Flight time means:
>>(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under
>>its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the
>>aircraft comes to rest after landing
>
>that maintenance should be based on total time in motion, and I
>wondered how many people do that. It would increase hours-based
>maintenance costs (e.g. the engine fund) by 15-25% depending on how
>much time one typically spends on the ground.

The FAR's do NOT define maintenance time that way. The FAR's rather use
the phrase "time in service" and FAR 1.1 defines TIS as

"Time in service", with respect to maintenance time records, means the time
from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface of the earth until it
touches it at the next point of landing.

That would be less than flight time, which is defined (also in FAR 1.1) as:

Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own
power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest
after landing.

------------------------------

Tach time in most a/c is probably close enough to TIS to be useable as
such, and has been how the records are kept at every maintenance shop I've
been at (in the US) over the past 30 or so years of a/c ownership.

Now with GPS becoming more prevalent, and with GPS having the ability to
start/stop a timer based on a/c speed; or by using a timer tied to a squat
switch or similar; I suppose one could keep times based on actual TIS as it
is defined in the FAR's.

--------------------------

However, I believe Part 91 only mentions maintenance time with regard to
determining when a 100 hr inspection is due. Part 43 does indicate that
"time in service" is what is supposed to be recorded when maintenance is
performed.



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Newps]

Bushy wrote:
> As you are asking in rec.aviation.OWNING, how do you log the hours in your
> pilots log book?

Irrelavant to a maintenence question.

>
> Do you expect this to correlate with your aircraft log book?

It's not designed to. You don't even have to keep a pilots log, other
than for currency and new ratings.


>
> Will the inspector when he compares the two?

No inspector would ever have a reason to compare them.


>
> And if your are in the "Land of the Free?", how do you expect the jury to
> see it?

There's no reason to compare the two because they don't show anything.

[Newps]

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:


>
> However, I believe Part 91 only mentions maintenance time with regard to
> determining when a 100 hr inspection is due. Part 43 does indicate that
> "time in service" is what is supposed to be recorded when maintenance is
> performed.

And since you don't do 100 hours unless the plane is for hire the whole
conversation is moot.

[Don Hammer]

Been involved with large aircraft my whole career. They don't have
tach or hobbs meters - well maybe a hobbs on the APU

Pilot logs block time - brake release to brake set
Maintenance logs reflect flight time and cycles - wheels off to on.

I've done maintenance ground runs several hours in length and those
don't get logged. You may taxi out on one engine. Doesn't matter -
only flight time and cycles are logged in the engine and airframe
books. APU hobbs goes in the APU book.

I think the FAR's in the US will reflect that method is legal no
matter the aircraft size and I think most countrie's regs are the
same. Want to log that way in your Cessna. It's OK with the FAA.



On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:34:00 -0600, Newps > wrote:

>
>
>Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
>
>
>>
>> However, I believe Part 91 only mentions maintenance time with regard to
>> determining when a 100 hr inspection is due. Part 43 does indicate that
>> "time in service" is what is supposed to be recorded when maintenance is
>> performed.
>
>And since you don't do 100 hours unless the plane is for hire the whole
>conversation is moot.


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[Don Hammer]

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 19:28:26 +0100, Peter >
wrote:

>How does one know which of the two should be used for the airframe,
>engine and prop time?
>
>
>Peter.

Airframe, engine and prop can be logged wheels off to wheels on like
they do in large aircraft. For convienience, I think most operators
of light aircraft use what large aircraft don't have - a hobbs or tach
meter. FAA doesn't care. Pilots can log time in motion e.g. block
time.

[OSKI 3]

Subject: Re: Do you log airborne time, or aircraft moving time?
From: Don Hammer

My instructor gave me this information:
Log time at engine start. After all YOU
are Pilot in Command of an Aircraft not
a static display!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Engine time is logged by Tach.


Bill OParowski
N10SX
N101SX

[Ron Natalie]

OSKI 3 wrote:

> My instructor gave me this information:
> Log time at engine start. After all YOU
> are Pilot in Command of an Aircraft not
> a static display!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The rules say from the time an aircraft first moves under
power for the purposes of flight. My argument is that as
soon as the engine start it moves under it's own power (if
only to strain against the brakes).

>
> Engine time is logged by Tach.
>
If you have a recording tach. My aircraft (as well as
late model Bonanzas) doesn't have a recording tach. It has
an elapsed time meter. Mine is connected to the nose gear.
My time in service doesn't include ground time.

[George Hamilton]

When the aircraft is in motion and under control of the pilot in command.

N7409J
PA28-140

[Ron Natalie]

George Hamilton wrote:
> When the aircraft is in motion and under control of the pilot in command.
>
That's not what the rules say.