What to look for - bringing an aircraft back to life

[Louis L. Perley III]

I seek the collective wisdom of the group. As I have mentioned previously, I
was the co-owner of a 1965 Piper Aztec, due to various conflicts in the
partnership, the plane has not flown in two and a half years (approx.) most
of this time it has been in a heated hangar, but has been out in the weather
since April. I have just this past week convinced my partners that it was
doing no one any good to have it just sit there, and they finally let me buy
them out. It's a pretty decent airframe overall, it's just been sitting idle
with disuse. I know there are many things to get it airworthy again, and
have started the process. I have scheduled a pitot-static-transponder check
this coming week, and an annual will shortly follow. I intend to replace the
tires (figure they're probably rotted due to not being moved much, and it's
a easy thing to correct right at the start), install a new battery (and if
memory serves I'll need to check/replace the one in the ELT as well). My
question is, what else should I be checking extra carefully? I know the
annual should catch most things, but that's just an inspection by
definition, and I expect not everything will show up until I get it flying
again. The engines have been run occasionally, but nothing that I'd call
consistent. The engines do have chrome cylinders, so I'm hoping that I won't
be facing a horrendous corrosion problem in that area. I'm wondering what
things I should be extra careful/mindful of once the airplane is airworthy
and flying again. Where would I expect to see problems the first few hours
aloft? Should I keep it close to home for the first bit and then do some
longer cross countries to give it a proper shakeout? If so, what would be a
reasonable amount of time to shake things out? The aircraft and I are based
at Jeffco (KBJC) in Broomfield, CO. I am really looking forward to taking a
flight in this aircraft, as I've owned half of it for 2.5 years and have
never flown it. I've seen those in the group who have been, or are in
partnerships, however the whole mess surrounding this one has made such an
idea in the future somewhat unpalatable.

--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000 - C152
N370 - PA-23-250

[zatatime]

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 20:56:53 -0600, "Louis L. Perley III"
> wrote:

>Should I keep it close to home for the first bit and then do some
>longer cross countries to give it a proper shakeout?

I'm kind of conservative. What I'd say is to fly it around the local
area for about 45 minutes at a low cruise power setting, always having
somewhere to land just to be extra safe. The next flight I'd shoot a
few (4 or 5) landings. Then for a couple hours go airport hoping.
After that a cross country or two would be in order that are around 2
hours each. This should get you used to the plane, and shake out any
issues that may not have been found. Of course, I'd do all of this to
the East. ;) After you put around 10 hours on it, fly it as if it
never sat.

While I've given absolutes in flight time they aren't meant to be
strict guidelines, just an outline for the progression I'd use. There
are mechanics in the forum who may have other ideas too.

Hope you enjoy your bird.
z

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Louis L. Perley III > wrote:
>I seek the collective wisdom of the group. As I have mentioned previously, I
>was the co-owner of a 1965 Piper Aztec, due to various conflicts in the
>partnership, the plane has not flown in two and a half years (approx.)

Personally I wouldn't do any major maintenance to that plane until you're
either 1) sure the engines have not had their lives significantly shortened
by corrosion or 2) prepared to have to overhaul them both. In fact, I
think you've gone out on a limb by buying out your partners without
knowing the condition of $50-60,000 worth of the plane's value.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Blanche]

I'd wait on the pitot-static check until after the annual. You may
find lots of hoses and tubing that needs to be repaired/replaced which
requires another pitot-static check, wasting $200-300.

In fact, I'd wait until after the annual to do anything. The
annual should provide the "shopping list" what needs to be
replaced/repaired.

As for what should be done...do you have the checklist from
Piper (in the maintenance manual, table III-I, Inspection Report).
That will be the starting point. You may want to have each item
on the seven pages evaluated.

Who's doing it? Someone at BJC?

[Dave Stadt]

"Louis L. Perley III" > wrote in message
...
> I seek the collective wisdom of the group. As I have mentioned previously,
I
> was the co-owner of a 1965 Piper Aztec, due to various conflicts in the
> partnership, the plane has not flown in two and a half years (approx.)
most
> of this time it has been in a heated hangar, but has been out in the
weather
> since April. I have just this past week convinced my partners that it was
> doing no one any good to have it just sit there, and they finally let me
buy
> them out. It's a pretty decent airframe overall, it's just been sitting
idle
> with disuse. I know there are many things to get it airworthy again, and
> have started the process. I have scheduled a pitot-static-transponder
check
> this coming week, and an annual will shortly follow. I intend to replace
the
> tires (figure they're probably rotted due to not being moved much, and
it's
> a easy thing to correct right at the start), install a new battery (and if
> memory serves I'll need to check/replace the one in the ELT as well). My
> question is, what else should I be checking extra carefully? I know the
> annual should catch most things, but that's just an inspection by
> definition, and I expect not everything will show up until I get it flying
> again. The engines have been run occasionally, but nothing that I'd call
> consistent. The engines do have chrome cylinders, so I'm hoping that I
won't
> be facing a horrendous corrosion problem in that area. I'm wondering what
> things I should be extra careful/mindful of once the airplane is airworthy
> and flying again. Where would I expect to see problems the first few hours
> aloft? Should I keep it close to home for the first bit and then do some
> longer cross countries to give it a proper shakeout? If so, what would be
a
> reasonable amount of time to shake things out? The aircraft and I are
based
> at Jeffco (KBJC) in Broomfield, CO. I am really looking forward to taking
a
> flight in this aircraft, as I've owned half of it for 2.5 years and have
> never flown it. I've seen those in the group who have been, or are in
> partnerships, however the whole mess surrounding this one has made such an
> idea in the future somewhat unpalatable.
>
> --
> Louis L. Perley III
> N46000 - C152
> N370 - PA-23-250


If the engines are Lycomings first thing I would do is have them checked.
Lycomings don't take well to sitting. If the engines have been ground run
for short periods of time that's about the worst thing that could have been
done. Second would be to have a look see at your checkbook. It is probably
going to be under attack for quite some time. .

[Rutger]

2.5 years is not too terribly long for the engines to have sit. I've
known of several aircraft in my area that have sat unflown / unrun for
much longer than that, without having the engines prepped for long
storage beforehand, whose engines were still in remarkable condition
after the usual basic maintenance tasks were done to revive them
(hoses, batteries, filters, AD's complied, etc.)

I'd be more concerned with looking for nests and other damage by
rodents, insects, birds, etc., since I once saw a plane that sat in a
hangar unflown for a couple years whose ailerons' movement were
severely restricted due to mud dauber (mud wasps) nests build inside
the wings on the control bellcranks. There were also rodent nests and
chewed wires in the aircraft.

Being a retract twin, I'd also have it put up on jackstands and make
sure all the landing gear mechanicals and electricals are in perfect
condition. I'd want to see the gear flawlessly perform a couple dozen
cycles while the aircraft sits on the jacks just to make my wallet
feel better before flying the plane.

[Doug]

Compression tests on both engines and swing the gear before I'd fly
it.
Both of these are higher priority than a pitot static test.
Also, before the compression test, several long runups, with extensive
magneto and carb heat and everything else checks (temperatures etc).

"Louis L. Perley III" > wrote in message >...
> I seek the collective wisdom of the group. As I have mentioned previously, I
> was the co-owner of a 1965 Piper Aztec, due to various conflicts in the
> partnership, the plane has not flown in two and a half years (approx.) most
> of this time it has been in a heated hangar, but has been out in the weather
> since April. I have just this past week convinced my partners that it was
> doing no one any good to have it just sit there, and they finally let me buy
> them out. It's a pretty decent airframe overall, it's just been sitting idle
> with disuse. I know there are many things to get it airworthy again, and
> have started the process. I have scheduled a pitot-static-transponder check
> this coming week, and an annual will shortly follow. I intend to replace the
> tires (figure they're probably rotted due to not being moved much, and it's
> a easy thing to correct right at the start), install a new battery (and if
> memory serves I'll need to check/replace the one in the ELT as well). My
> question is, what else should I be checking extra carefully? I know the
> annual should catch most things, but that's just an inspection by
> definition, and I expect not everything will show up until I get it flying
> again. The engines have been run occasionally, but nothing that I'd call
> consistent. The engines do have chrome cylinders, so I'm hoping that I won't
> be facing a horrendous corrosion problem in that area. I'm wondering what
> things I should be extra careful/mindful of once the airplane is airworthy
> and flying again. Where would I expect to see problems the first few hours
> aloft? Should I keep it close to home for the first bit and then do some
> longer cross countries to give it a proper shakeout? If so, what would be a
> reasonable amount of time to shake things out? The aircraft and I are based
> at Jeffco (KBJC) in Broomfield, CO. I am really looking forward to taking a
> flight in this aircraft, as I've owned half of it for 2.5 years and have
> never flown it. I've seen those in the group who have been, or are in
> partnerships, however the whole mess surrounding this one has made such an
> idea in the future somewhat unpalatable.

[Craig]

"Louis L. Perley III" > wrote in message >...
> I seek the collective wisdom of the group. As I have mentioned previously, I
> was the co-owner of a 1965 Piper Aztec, due to various conflicts in the
> partnership, the plane has not flown in two and a half years (approx.) most
> of this time it has been in a heated hangar, but has been out in the weather
> since April. I have just this past week convinced my partners that it was
> doing no one any good to have it just sit there, and they finally let me buy
> them out. It's a pretty decent airframe overall, it's just been sitting idle
> with disuse.

Couple of things that need to be done prior to the annual and most
importantly prior to even starting the engines......

1. Fresh oil change and at least 20 minuets on an external oil pump
for pre-oiling or if using a pressure type pre-oiler, then 10 fill
and drain cycles.

2. Battery replacement or charge check. If it won't hold a charge then
replace it.

3. Gear swing and rig check and lube. Do it by the book and no
shortcuts....

4.Power up the aircraft with external power and do a good sniff check.

Once you've done this then fire up the engines and do some taxi
testing and get ready for the annual.

Craig C.

[Montblack]

("Louis L. Perley III" wrote)
<snips>
> I seek the collective wisdom of the group. As I have mentioned previously,
I
> was the co-owner of a 1965 Piper Aztec, due to various conflicts in the
> partnership, the plane has not flown in two and a half years (approx.)
most
> of this time it has been in a heated hangar, but has been out in the
weather
> since April. I have just this past week convinced my partners that it was
> doing no one any good to have it just sit there, and they finally let me
buy
> them out.

>The aircraft and I are based
> at Jeffco (KBJC) in Broomfield, CO. I am really looking forward to taking
a
> flight in this aircraft, as I've owned half of it for 2.5 years and have
> never flown it. I've seen those in the group who have been, or are in
> partnerships, however the whole mess surrounding this one has made such an
> idea in the future somewhat unpalatable.


I missed the messy partnership story. Could you provide a brief recap -
hitting the high ...or low points? Thanks.

Also, you convinced your (plural) partner(s) to sell. And (they) agreed. -
yet you owned half of the plane? How many partners were there? Did you end
up getting stuck for half of the fixed costs?

Hope *your* (singular) plane gets flying again - soon!


Montblack

[Louis L. Perley III]

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:Iomcd.142069$He1.20085@attbi_s01...
> In article >,
> Louis L. Perley III > wrote:
> >I seek the collective wisdom of the group. As I have mentioned
previously, I
> >was the co-owner of a 1965 Piper Aztec, due to various conflicts in the
> >partnership, the plane has not flown in two and a half years (approx.)
>
> Personally I wouldn't do any major maintenance to that plane until you're
> either 1) sure the engines have not had their lives significantly
shortened
> by corrosion or 2) prepared to have to overhaul them both. In fact, I
> think you've gone out on a limb by buying out your partners without
> knowing the condition of $50-60,000 worth of the plane's value.
>

I've always been able to swallow the cost of an overhaul (I don't
believe anyone has any business owning an airplane unless they can,
otherwise the plane ends up sitting and rotting when something unexpected
happens), I think that ended up being part of the problem with the
partnership. I had such flexibility, they did not, so when it came to doing
maintenance, it was however they could get the best deal (i.e.. having one
of the owners who had his A&P do the annual, well, that annual has now ended
up taking 2+ years and is still incomplete. I became tired of waiting, so I
bought them out so I could get someone who had the time to get it done.
Actually, I'm having the whole thing redone, just as a cross-check. Plus,
I'll be able to assist in the annual, so I'll hopefully learn a lot more. I
did this when I did the annual on my 152 and learned a lot.

[Louis L. Perley III]

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> I'd wait on the pitot-static check until after the annual. You may
> find lots of hoses and tubing that needs to be repaired/replaced which
> requires another pitot-static check, wasting $200-300.
>
> In fact, I'd wait until after the annual to do anything. The
> annual should provide the "shopping list" what needs to be
> replaced/repaired.
>

I'm having them look do the pitot-static check done because they have a
slot, and most if not all the hoses in that system are new. I dropped by the
log books to have them make the entries for the audio panel (replaced a
KMA-12 that had seen better days) and asked about the pitot static since I
knew it would have expired. I don't expect any problems in that department,
and if any are found, I'll have something to squawk when doing the annual.

> As for what should be done...do you have the checklist from
> Piper (in the maintenance manual, table III-I, Inspection Report).
> That will be the starting point. You may want to have each item
> on the seven pages evaluated.
>

That's one thing I do have. When we bought the plane two years ago, it came
with the maintanance manuals and the parts-list binder, which are handy to
have. I will look this bit of information up and make sure we follow it.
Thanks for pointing this out!

> Who's doing it? Someone at BJC?
>

I was thinking of Mountain Air or possibly Legacy. My C152 is maintained at
Mountain Air and they seem to do a decent job. If it was flyable, I'd also
think about taking it up to Akron, as the guys at Hayes Aviation have always
treated me quite fair. The main thing is who has an opening in their
schedule, as I'd like to get things done within the next couple of weeks or
so. I'll then take it up to Greeley and put it in a hangar up there (we're
in the process of buying a home a bit south of RWY 34 at GXY) with the 152.

[Louis L. Perley III]

> I'd be more concerned with looking for nests and other damage by
> rodents, insects, birds, etc., since I once saw a plane that sat in a
> hangar unflown for a couple years whose ailerons' movement were
> severely restricted due to mud dauber (mud wasps) nests build inside
> the wings on the control bellcranks. There were also rodent nests and
> chewed wires in the aircraft.
>

It was in a hangar most of those two years, and I have gone out an checked
the plane during the time it's been on the ramp. I was mindful of this
because my C152 was nested by some wasps over a weeks time last summer.

> Being a retract twin, I'd also have it put up on jackstands and make
> sure all the landing gear mechanicals and electricals are in perfect
> condition. I'd want to see the gear flawlessly perform a couple dozen
> cycles while the aircraft sits on the jacks just to make my wallet
> feel better before flying the plane.

When I get it annualed, the mechanics will hook it up to an external
hydraulic pump and we'll cycle them a number of times for both gear and
flaps. I was actually wondering how this was done without running the
engines, as you can do it with the hand pump, but figured it wouldn't be the
same. Mechanics called the external pump a mule? or some such animal, cannot
remember now. I guess it's a pretty standard thing to do when the gear is
hydraulic. The other thing I need to do some research on is the STC for dual
hydraulic pumps, as the Aztec only has one on one engine by default truly
giving it a critical engine.

--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000 - C152
N370 - PA-23-250

[Louis L. Perley III]

> Couple of things that need to be done prior to the annual and most
> importantly prior to even starting the engines......
>
> 1. Fresh oil change and at least 20 minuets on an external oil pump
> for pre-oiling or if using a pressure type pre-oiler, then 10 fill
> and drain cycles.
>

Will be doing this with the mechanic.

> 2. Battery replacement or charge check. If it won't hold a charge then
> replace it.
>

Already ordered replacement batteries, I'll throw the old ones away. I
figure this is cheap insurance/preventative maintanance.

> 3. Gear swing and rig check and lube. Do it by the book and no
> shortcuts....
>

I'll do this with the mechanic hooking up the aircraft to an external pump.
I've also planned on replacing the tires for the same reasons as the battery
above.

> 4.Power up the aircraft with external power and do a good sniff check.
>

I need to find someone who sells the plug for a Piper. I have one for the
Cessna, but it's a three prong, flat plug and the Piper one is round. One
nice thing about the Piper is that it's only 14 volts, so powering it via
the external plug is easier.

> Once you've done this then fire up the engines and do some taxi
> testing and get ready for the annual.
>

Will do.

--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000 - C152
N370 - PA-23-250

[zatatime]

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:39:10 -0600, "Louis L. Perley III"
> wrote:

> I'll then take it up to Greeley and put it in a hangar up there (we're
>in the process of buying a home a bit south of RWY 34


Hope its up wind from the farms.

P U. ;)

z

[Louis L. Perley III]

> >The aircraft and I are based
> > at Jeffco (KBJC) in Broomfield, CO. I am really looking forward to
taking
> a
> > flight in this aircraft, as I've owned half of it for 2.5 years and have
> > never flown it. I've seen those in the group who have been, or are in
> > partnerships, however the whole mess surrounding this one has made such
an
> > idea in the future somewhat unpalatable.
>
>
> I missed the messy partnership story. Could you provide a brief recap -
> hitting the high ...or low points? Thanks.
>
> Also, you convinced your (plural) partner(s) to sell. And (they) agreed. -
> yet you owned half of the plane? How many partners were there? Did you end
> up getting stuck for half of the fixed costs?
>

Well, the story, even in short form is pretty long because of the time
and people involved, but the short version that explains one of the main
reasons is as follows. I setup a company for the sole purpose of owning the
aircraft. I was a 50% shareholder, with the remaining 50% divided up equally
among three other parties. One party worked for a Part 135 operation, the
other was a multi-engine-Instructor rated pilot and A&P, with the third
being my former instructor for my PP-ASEL. From a corporation standpoint, I
was the president and secretary (since I knew what to do with the paperwork,
etc.) with the other three being the VP of operations, VP of maintenance,
and VP of instruction respectively. Overall I thought that together we put
together a pretty good mix and had all our bases covered. The problem came
when the VP of maintenance started the annual. It took forever, with many
promises as to when it would get done and it never getting finished. My
problem was that since the company was more or less 50/50 (did I mention the
fact that the VP of maintenance is married to the VP of instruction, who is
the daughter of the VP of operations?). Anytime I'd try and get something
done, it was countered by the other three (usually with promises of "You
don't need to do that, we'll get the annual done"). After trying this for
two years, I finally got fed up and had a maintenance shop on the field
begin an annual. In my mind, it was coming out of my pocket, so it shouldn't
have been an issue, and all would benefit. It was not viewed this way by the
other three who called the mechanic and ordered him to stop immediately. The
shop didn't want to get involved and so stopped working on the airplane. I
called a meeting to discuss and was again promised two weeks to complete the
aircraft by the VP of maintenance. Well, two weeks passed and while there
was more work done on the airplane, it wasn't completed (and to this day
hasn't been), and it took the rest of the summer to work on getting
everyone's agreement to buy them out. There is alot of detail missing from
this brief explanation, but if anything is to be learned by others from my
experience, is to never leave a partnership/corporation in a state where
there could be a deadlock. I always figured that to get something done, I'd
only need to have one other person agree with me and we'd have the vote to
do so. Or conversely I figured if the other three were in agreement, that I
should concede based on their additional experience compared to my own in
such things. Well, such is life and now I know better.

--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000 - C152
N370 - PA-23-250

[Louis L. Perley III]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 21:39:10 -0600, "Louis L. Perley III"
> > wrote:
>
> > I'll then take it up to Greeley and put it in a hangar up there (we're
> >in the process of buying a home a bit south of RWY 34
>
>
> Hope its up wind from the farms.
>
> P U. ;)
>
> z

Spoken like someone who knows the area :) I've been out there a number of
times and haven't noticed any latent odor from the feedlots in the area.
It's only 5 minutes outside of town, but it feels a lot more remote than
that. I live closer to Jeffco now, but it actually takes more time to get
from my home to Jeffco than it will from our new home to Greeley Weld. It's
also amazing the cost differential from a storage perspective. I'll have my
aircraft in a heated hangar up there for what it costs me to tie-down at
Jeffco.

--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000 - C152
N370 - PA-23-250

[Blanche]

Louis L. Perley III > wrote:
>"zatatime" > wrote in message
>> > wrote:

>> > I'll then take it up to Greeley and put it in a hangar up there (we're
>> >in the process of buying a home a bit south of RWY 34

>> Hope its up wind from the farms.
>> P U. ;)

>Spoken like someone who knows the area :) I've been out there a number of
>times and haven't noticed any latent odor from the feedlots in the area.

My problem is I always "detect" them before I see them!

[Dan Thomas]

(Craig) wrote in message news:
>
> Couple of things that need to be done prior to the annual and most
> importantly prior to even starting the engines......
>
> 1. Fresh oil change and at least 20 minuets on an external oil pump
> for pre-oiling or if using a pressure type pre-oiler, then 10 fill
> and drain cycles.
>
> 2. Battery replacement or charge check. If it won't hold a charge then
> replace it.
>
> 3. Gear swing and rig check and lube. Do it by the book and no
> shortcuts....
>
> 4.Power up the aircraft with external power and do a good sniff check.
>
> Once you've done this then fire up the engines and do some taxi
> testing and get ready for the annual.
>
> Craig C.
>

And see how old those fuel and oil hoses are. Ten years is the
outside limit, and five is more reasonable. They get brittle and crack
with age and can cause some serious second thought.
The oil filters should be checked after a couple of hours
running. Running the engines on the ground a few times puts a whole
lot of moisture into the case and causes acid formation and corrosion.
If the bearings/journals and pistons/rings have been roughed up by
corrosion there might be metal in the filters.

Dan

[Louis L. Perley III]

> And see how old those fuel and oil hoses are. Ten years is the
> outside limit, and five is more reasonable. They get brittle and crack
> with age and can cause some serious second thought.
> The oil filters should be checked after a couple of hours
> running. Running the engines on the ground a few times puts a whole
> lot of moisture into the case and causes acid formation and corrosion.
> If the bearings/journals and pistons/rings have been roughed up by
> corrosion there might be metal in the filters.
>
> Dan

I plan on replacing all the hoses and such, again, as a preventative
maintanance type thing, it's a bit more cost for quite a bit of insurance in
my line of thinking, plus if I get it done now, it shouldn't be an issue for
the next few years.

On ground running the engines. I thought that as long as you ran them on the
ground long enough to get them up to operating temperature then it wasn't a
problem? Something about getting the oil hot enough to evaporate the water
or something. Is this just simply incorrect information?


--
Louis L. Perley III
N46000 - C152
N370 - PA-23-250

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Louis L. Perley III" wrote:
>
> On ground running the engines. I thought that as long as you ran them on the
> ground long enough to get them up to operating temperature then it wasn't a
> problem? Something about getting the oil hot enough to evaporate the water
> or something. Is this just simply incorrect information?

Fifteen years ago, that was conventional wisdom. Now, you'll get lots of argument
about it.

As for getting the oil hot enough to evaporate water, on my Lycoming O-320, getting
into the green arc won't do the trick. You need to get the temp at least half way up
the scale and keep it there for 15 minutes or more. I can tape over my oil cooler and
manage to get it there on the ground in July or August, but the rest of the year,
ground operation won't get the engine hot enough.

Further, running the engine at all puts acids into the oil from a combination of
blowby and condensation. Unless you immediately change the oil, that acid is going to
sit in your engine. Of course, if you don't run it much (as you didn't), you won't
get much acid buildup, but it's still a problem. It's really best to just pickle the
engine if it's going to sit.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.