Best Club class glider

[Paul T[_4_]]

Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford a
JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
would be of the following:-

Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?

ASW19/19B

ASW15B

LSIF

DG100/101

Std Jantar 2/3

Glasflugel Std Libelle

Glasflugel Hornet

Pegase

I'll have about £15k max to spend.

[JS]

From my little experience at club class competitions, the pilot seems
to have a lot to do with it...
Most on your list have done well.
Coincidentally, there's an SZD55 for sale in the previous RAS post to
yours, close enough to drive home. They're a very good club class
ship.
Jim

[kirk.stant]

On Dec 12, 10:40*am, Paul T > wrote:
> Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford a
> JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
> bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
> would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
> would be of the following:-
>
> Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?
>
> ASW19/19B
>
> ASW15B
>
> LSIF
>
> DG100/101
>
> Std Jantar 2/3
>
> Glasflugel Std Libelle
>
> Glasflugel Hornet
>
> Pegase
>
> I'll have about £15k max to spend.

It's the one with the nicest trailer and best finish, in that order.

Seriously.

The whole point of handicapped racing is to equalize the gliders. Any
glider that suddenly starts winning every race is going to get a new
handicap - and will probably end up at the bottom of the list for a
while.

More important to get a nice glider that you will enjoy flying, IMHO.

Then race the bejeezus out of it!!!

Cheers,

Kirk
66
(grumpily getting beaten by LS1s in his LS6 in the US Club Class)

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

Keep in mind what Kirk said about what you want. It has to be in a
good trailer, and a ship you enjoy flying. That is by far teh most
important thing, as most of your flying will not likely be done in
competition. Now, for the competing part. I would not recommend
getting the highest performing ship allowed. Why? A slightly lesser
performing ship can follow you and you will lose on handicap. Don't
get the bottom end and try to win based on handicap. There will be
days when you can't get home and the others do. Your handicap will
never make up that loss.

Find a ship you like in the 70-80% up through the allowed performance
range. Seal it, put in good instruments, and fly. Not just weekend
fun flying, flag pole sitting stuff. If you are serious on competing,
fly like you are competing. Every day. Has been taking me half a
bloody contest to get out of "relaxed" flying mode and get into more
serious racing mode. I am still relaxed and having fun, but being a
bit more selective. My daily scores tend to show this.

Steve Leonard

[David Reitter]

On Dec 12, 11:40*am, Paul T > wrote:
> Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford a
> JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular,

I was in the same place about a year ago, and considered, in addition
to some of the gliders you mention, a Mini Nimbus and a Mosquito.
They'll give you both fantastic value if you can find one that is in
shape, in your price range. (I also considered the ASW20, but you're
likely to spend a little more on.)

I second what was said about trailers; I may add that your choices may
be limited by what will be available within your driving range.

Be aware of the lifetime limits on the Pegase. You don't list it, but
if you're considering an Astir, there's an expensive AD out on it.

As for Std Cirrus - the newer ones (75) have a slightly different
washout, improving its stall characteristics. The original one has an
all-moving tailplane. CG hook only - issue on aerotows - turned out
OK for me, but less than ideal for some. I would be more concerned
with its finish, the panel that comes with it (new instruments are
valuable, but some may be expensive and of little use to you). I
ended up buying a Std Cirrus locally, and fixing up the trailer, panel
and the cockpit during the spring.

[C2]

I would get the Standard Cirrus.

[Tony[_5_]]

> *Don't
> get the bottom end and try to win based on handicap. *There will be
> days when you can't get home and the others do. *Your handicap will
> never make up that loss.

Oh damn there goes my plan to take the 2-22 racing next year :)

If I had a club class glider of any type listed it would probably take
a long time to wipe the grin off my face.

[Tim Mara]

if you could buy a good one in your budget I'd go for the Hornet above all
the rest!
I've owned a mess of gliders......lost count, and have flown everything on
your list in one form or another and none on the list come close to the
Hornet in pure joy to fly "and own"......I've in fact owned every Hornet "C"
in the USA (there were unfortunately one 2 of these ever in the US) :o) and
have one to this day!.....It may not have the blazing performance of later
gliders but with the light wings, super powerful and easy to use dive
brakes, large roomy and fully adjustable cockpit, automatic hook-ups of
everything, forward hinged canopy and yes.Glasflugel innovation and handling
it's just hands down the best ship to own and more than just competitive
with everything on your list plus you just don't have to think about flying
the glider.it's simply automatic and fly's like you think.....just point and
shoot!
good luck
Tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Paul T" > wrote in message
.com...
> Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford
> a
> JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
> bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
> would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
> would be of the following:-
>
> Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?
>
> ASW19/19B
>
> ASW15B
>
> LSIF
>
> DG100/101
>
> Std Jantar 2/3
>
> Glasflugel Std Libelle
>
> Glasflugel Hornet
>
> Pegase
>
> I'll have about £15k max to spend.
>
>
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[[email protected]]

On Dec 12, 5:34*pm, "Tim Mara" > wrote:
> if you could buy a good one in your budget I'd go for the Hornet above all
> the rest!
> I've owned a mess of gliders......lost count, and have flown everything on
> your list in one form or another and none on the list come close to the
> Hornet in pure joy to fly "and own"......I've in fact owned every Hornet "C"
> in the USA (there were unfortunately one 2 of these ever in the US) :o) and
> have one to this day!.....It may not have the blazing performance of later
> gliders but with the light wings, super powerful and easy to use dive
> brakes, large roomy and fully adjustable cockpit, automatic hook-ups of
> everything, forward hinged canopy and yes.Glasflugel innovation and handling
> it's just hands down the best ship to own and more than just competitive
> with everything on your list plus you just don't have to think about flying
> the glider.it's simply automatic and fly's like you think.....just point and
> shoot!
> good luck
> Tim
> Please visit the Wings & Wheels website atwww.wingsandwheels.com
>
> "Paul T" > wrote in message
>
> .com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford
> > a
> > JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
> > bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
> > would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
> > would be of the following:-
>
> > Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?
>
> > ASW19/19B
>
> > ASW15B
>
> > LSIF
>
> > DG100/101
>
> > Std Jantar 2/3
>
> > Glasflugel Std Libelle
>
> > Glasflugel Hornet
>
> > Pegase
>
> > I'll have about £15k max to spend.
>
> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> > signature database 6705 (20111212) __________
>
> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> >http://www.eset.com
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 6705 (20111212) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I would go with a glider that is easy to rig. Auto control hook ups
are a real plus. The early model Std Circus is IMHO pretty complex to
rig. I enjoyed my Standard Libelle. Do not forget about
ventilation. Most gliders do not have enough ventilation.


Bill Snead
6W

Bill Snead

[jim wynhoff]

On Dec 12, 8:40*am, Paul T > wrote:
> Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford a
> JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
> bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
> would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
> would be of the following:-
>
> Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?
>
> ASW19/19B
>
> ASW15B
>
> LSIF
>
> DG100/101
>
> Std Jantar 2/3
>
> Glasflugel Std Libelle
>
> Glasflugel Hornet
>
> Pegase
>
> I'll have about £15k max to spend.

Re-lighting a fire.... I would avoid an LS anything, or a DG anything.
Both for the same reason, though the airframes are fine. Like many, I
recommend a good trailer, good finish, and ease of assembly.
Ruggedness is also a plus.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 18:22 12 December 2011, JS wrote:
>From my little experience at club class competitions, the pilot seems
>to have a lot to do with it...
>Most on your list have done well.
>Coincidentally, there's an SZD55 for sale in the previous RAS post to
>yours, close enough to drive home. They're a very good club class
>ship.
>Jim
>

If I could get an SZD55 for £15k I would be very tempted! (and no don't
want a syndicate partner.)

[Paul T[_4_]]

Thanks for the opinions so far - just to clarify I would like to get an
idea of the pro's and con's of each ship (let's discount things like state
of trailer instruments ect.)
It's interesting to note that Gee Dale recently sold his ASW24 to purchase
a DG100/1 because he felt he could not win the World Club Class with a 24,
as he had to fly too 'high risk' to beat the larger pack of lower
performing club class gliders ove rthe length of a contest.

[Cats]

On Dec 12, 8:13*pm, David Reitter > wrote:
<snip>
>
> Be aware of the lifetime limits on the Pegase. *You don't list it, but
> if you're considering an Astir, there's an expensive AD out on it.
<snip>

I suspect the OP is in the UK since he put price in pounds not
dollars. AFAIK the lifetime limits in the UK don't exist on the
Pegase, and 10 hours on the road is enough or more than enough to get
to most clubs unless he lives right on the south coast or near
Inverness.

Agree you want a sound trailer, then a good finish, and believe us
mere mortals are best of finding a glider with those two things that
we are comfortable in and enjoy flying rather than worrying about what
Gee is flying.

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

On Dec 12, 8:40*am, Paul T > wrote:
> Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford a
> JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
> bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
> would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
> would be of the following:-
>
> Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?
>
> ASW19/19B
>
> ASW15B
>
> LSIF
>
> DG100/101
>
> Std Jantar 2/3
>
> Glasflugel Std Libelle
>
> Glasflugel Hornet
>
> Pegase
>
> I'll have about £15k max to spend.

Paul,
The best advice would be to buy a ship to match the soaring conditions
you expect to compete in. The DG-100 climbs like stink, but doesn't
run all that well.....................probably a good selection for
weak conditions, but a looser in strong conditions. Same could be said
for the Libelle and G-102. A Pegasus, Hornet or Jantar would be my
choice for strong western conditions here in the US. Don't discount a
good trailer, remember you will live with a crappy trailer every time
you assemble and disassemble whatever you buy.
Cheers,
JJ

[David Reitter]

On Dec 12, 8:16*pm, " > wrote:

> I would go with a glider that is easy to rig. *Auto control hook ups
> are a real plus. *The early model Std Circus is IMHO pretty complex to
> rig.

That's correct.

The all-moving tailplane is a bitch to mount, though after maybe 10
times, I think I stopped having issues. The control hook-ups will be
a problem for pilots who can't get their head and upper body into the
fuselage (that's how I do it and it's no big deal for me). There's a
modification that fits an access hatch which makes life much easier -
I have it, though I don't use it as I'm too lazy to replace the tape
around it all the time. Wedekind sleeves may be fit to the control
connections, though that modification is expensive. I've had
occasional issues putting the wings on. All in all, automatic control-
hookups and a better/quicker wing attachment mechanism would be much
preferable. A mod I would insist on is the one for the spoilers.
The original Std Cirrus has poor airbrakes; with this mod, which fits
some extra aluminum sheets, the brakes are fine. Finally, it's a joy
to fly.

http://www.standardcirrus.org/

But what others said initially still holds: get a glider/trailer
combination within the performance/price constraints that makes life
easy when rigging and de-rigging, and look for a decent finish.

[Dan Marotta]

In a word: Mosquito.


"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
On Dec 12, 8:40 am, Paul T > wrote:
> Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford
> a
> JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
> bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
> would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
> would be of the following:-
>
> Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?
>
> ASW19/19B
>
> ASW15B
>
> LSIF
>
> DG100/101
>
> Std Jantar 2/3
>
> Glasflugel Std Libelle
>
> Glasflugel Hornet
>
> Pegase
>
> I'll have about £15k max to spend.

Paul,
The best advice would be to buy a ship to match the soaring conditions
you expect to compete in. The DG-100 climbs like stink, but doesn't
run all that well.....................probably a good selection for
weak conditions, but a looser in strong conditions. Same could be said
for the Libelle and G-102. A Pegasus, Hornet or Jantar would be my
choice for strong western conditions here in the US. Don't discount a
good trailer, remember you will live with a crappy trailer every time
you assemble and disassemble whatever you buy.
Cheers,
JJ

[Dan Marotta]

....or is that not a "Club Class" glider?


"Dan Marotta" > wrote in message
...
> In a word: Mosquito.
>
>
> "JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Dec 12, 8:40 am, Paul T > wrote:
>> Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford
>> a
>> JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
>> bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
>> would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
>> would be of the following:-
>>
>> Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?
>>
>> ASW19/19B
>>
>> ASW15B
>>
>> LSIF
>>
>> DG100/101
>>
>> Std Jantar 2/3
>>
>> Glasflugel Std Libelle
>>
>> Glasflugel Hornet
>>
>> Pegase
>>
>> I'll have about £15k max to spend.
>
> Paul,
> The best advice would be to buy a ship to match the soaring conditions
> you expect to compete in. The DG-100 climbs like stink, but doesn't
> run all that well.....................probably a good selection for
> weak conditions, but a looser in strong conditions. Same could be said
> for the Libelle and G-102. A Pegasus, Hornet or Jantar would be my
> choice for strong western conditions here in the US. Don't discount a
> good trailer, remember you will live with a crappy trailer every time
> you assemble and disassemble whatever you buy.
> Cheers,
> JJ

[Mike[_37_]]

It is.

Although the Mini Nimbus is not on the approved IGC list.

Go figure.

Mike

On Dec 13, 10:36*am, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> ...or is that not a "Club Class" glider?
>
> "Dan Marotta" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In a word: *Mosquito.
>
> > "JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
> ....
> > On Dec 12, 8:40 am, Paul T > wrote:
> >> Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford
> >> a
> >> JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
> >> bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
> >> would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
> >> would be of the following:-
>
> >> Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?
>
> >> ASW19/19B
>
> >> ASW15B
>
> >> LSIF
>
> >> DG100/101
>
> >> Std Jantar 2/3
>
> >> Glasflugel Std Libelle
>
> >> Glasflugel Hornet
>
> >> Pegase
>
> >> I'll have about £15k max to spend.
>
> > Paul,
> > The best advice would be to buy a ship to match the soaring conditions
> > you expect to compete in. The DG-100 climbs like stink, but doesn't
> > run all that well.....................probably a good selection for
> > weak conditions, but a looser in strong conditions. Same could be said
> > for the Libelle and G-102. A Pegasus, Hornet or Jantar would be my
> > choice for strong western conditions here in the US. Don't discount a
> > good trailer, remember you will live with a crappy trailer every time
> > you assemble and disassemble whatever you buy.
> > Cheers,
> > JJ

[JS]

Sorry, forgot the L/E ratio is only ~1.2:1
Last I paid for Euros was 1.6 US Pesos.
....Hope you have a vintage Desmoquattro to finance this with.
Jim

On Dec 13, 1:18*am, Paul T > wrote:

> If I could get an SZD55 for £15k I would be very tempted! (and no don't
> want a syndicate partner.)

[Tim Mara]

Mosquito is a great ship but it's not in the club class (it's flapped) and
would however fit into the European "Racing class" where they do allow
flapped gliders.....( also mentioned was the .Mini-Nimbus but it's a poor
comparison and lacks many good features of the Mosquito!)
Hence, the Hornet is the real 1st choice for "club" class being similar to
the Mosquito but without flaps and has a different airfoil as well......
I've owned and flown both the Hornet and Mosquito and neither has the
"exceptions" of the rest like manual hook-up's, small ineffective dive
brakes, all flying tails, lift off canopies, small uncomfortable cockpits or
infamous DG/LS support (lack of) issues .it's just really hard to pick on
these terrific Glasflugel ships.......
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com


"Mike" > wrote in message
...
It is.

Although the Mini Nimbus is not on the approved IGC list.

Go figure.

Mike

On Dec 13, 10:36 am, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> ...or is that not a "Club Class" glider?
>
> "Dan Marotta" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In a word: Mosquito.
>
> > "JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Dec 12, 8:40 am, Paul T > wrote:
> >> Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't
> >> afford
> >> a
> >> JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale
> >> has
> >> bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered
> >> which
> >> would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and
> >> con's
> >> would be of the following:-
>
> >> Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?
>
> >> ASW19/19B
>
> >> ASW15B
>
> >> LSIF
>
> >> DG100/101
>
> >> Std Jantar 2/3
>
> >> Glasflugel Std Libelle
>
> >> Glasflugel Hornet
>
> >> Pegase
>
> >> I'll have about £15k max to spend.
>
> > Paul,
> > The best advice would be to buy a ship to match the soaring conditions
> > you expect to compete in. The DG-100 climbs like stink, but doesn't
> > run all that well.....................probably a good selection for
> > weak conditions, but a looser in strong conditions. Same could be said
> > for the Libelle and G-102. A Pegasus, Hornet or Jantar would be my
> > choice for strong western conditions here in the US. Don't discount a
> > good trailer, remember you will live with a crappy trailer every time
> > you assemble and disassemble whatever you buy.
> > Cheers,
> > JJ


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database 6708 (20111213) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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[S. Murry]

Tim,

I think you meant to say "standard class", right? Club Class (as in the
FAI Club Class) does allow flaps, and many gliders with flaps are on the
list (e.g. DG-200, ASW-20...). And the Mosquito is on the list:

http://www.fai.org/component/phocadownload/category/861-handicaps?download=3198:handicaps

It has a handicap of 1.07, like the DG-200, LS-3, etc. Not advocating
DG/LS equipment, just pointing out the handicap...

--Stefan

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:50:39 -0600, Tim Mara >
wrote:

> Mosquito is a great ship but it's not in the club class (it's flapped)
> and
> would however fit into the European "Racing class" where they do allow
> flapped gliders.....( also mentioned was the .Mini-Nimbus but it's a poor
> comparison and lacks many good features of the Mosquito!)
> Hence, the Hornet is the real 1st choice for "club" class being similar
> to
> the Mosquito but without flaps and has a different airfoil as well......
> I've owned and flown both the Hornet and Mosquito and neither has the
> "exceptions" of the rest like manual hook-up's, small ineffective dive
> brakes, all flying tails, lift off canopies, small uncomfortable
> cockpits or
> infamous DG/LS support (lack of) issues .it's just really hard to pick
> on
> these terrific Glasflugel ships.......
> tim
> Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com
>
>
>
>


--
Stefan Murry

[James Thomson[_2_]]

At 20:13 12 December 2011, David Reitter wrote:
>if you're considering an Astir, there's an expensive AD out on it.
>

The Astir AD is only an issue if you are under FAA rules. In Europe the
AD was mandatory in 1991 (!) and so is ancient history.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:31:12 +0000, Paul T wrote:

> Thanks for the opinions so far - just to clarify I would like to get an
> idea of the pro's and con's of each ship (let's discount things like
> state of trailer instruments ect.)
>
Two comments: the first may save you some searching. The second is pure
opinion.

- ASW-19, ASW-20, Pegase 101 and 90
It is worth remembering that all these have essentially the same cockpit,
so if you're comfortable in one, you'll be comfortable in the others.
Differences:
- the 19, 20 and Pegase 101 all have Hoteliers. The Pegase 90
is later than the more common 101 and has automatic connecting
controls.

- The 20C and Peg 90 have lifting panels as standard. I'm not sure
about the 20F and Peg 101. The others didn't but quite a lot of
them have had a lifting panel fitted.

- Std Libelle
I fly one and love it, but if you have wide shoulders you may not fit: it
has a rather narrow cockpit though length generally isn't an issue. All
controls are self-connecting except the ailerons, and they are easy to
connect. The glider is light and easy to rig. All-round vis is about the
best there is. I can see my rudder waggling even when strapped in. Its
easy to fly, thermals very well and is fairly spin resistant but you must
fly it accurately: the teardrop fuselage x-section generates a lot of
drag when yawed, but OTOH it comes down like a sack of anvils when
slipped. Two caveats: the brakes are weak, which makes it a little harder
to land tidily since it does float on, and it is *ESSENTIAL* to get a
good briefing from an experienced Libelle driver before you winch it for
the first time. Glasfaser, who took over type support when Glasflugel
folded, are friendly, helpful, and a pleasure to do business with.

HTH


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Hagbard Celine]

You're fortunate that you live in the U.K.; a tiny country with a lot
of gliders. This means you have a lot more choice and it'll be pretty
easy to go look at quite a few gliders.

If you're primary interest is winning club class competitions then you
should look at what glider most commonly wins and buy one of those
(yes, I know that handicapping theoretically means every glider should
be equal but..)

After that you can read Derek Piggott's recommendations and Dick
Johnson's Flight Test Evaluations for some guidance ( they're all on
the SSA website but you need a membership to access them, the Standard
Cirrus B test is available at standardcirrus.org)

Find out which ships you fit in comfortably. As I said above this
should be easy for you as examples of every type you listed will
likely be present at a club not too far away from you. One of the
reasons I didn't buy a Libelle was that I found it too cramped across
the shoulders. A lot of people in my club wouldn't fly the Standard
Jantar we had because they found it too uncomfortable. You never
really know until you try one on for size.

The condition of the glider, particularly the finish is really
important. This applies both to the actual performance (as opposed to
the performance measured when new) and to future maintenance and
resale costs.

As to specific gliders I can speak about the Standard Jantar, ASW-15B
and ASW19/19B from personal experience.

Standard Jantar: The cockpit is long but not too wide (having long
arms is a plus for Jantar pilots). It has a fairly high wing loading
even without water ballast. The landing gear handle can be awkward to
operate as it has to be moved quite far back and you're elbow may have
trouble fitting between you're ribcage and the cockpit side if you're
average height. It stalls and spins quite sharply but recovers quickly
(at least our Standard 1 did and it's the only one I've flown).
Visibility is alright but not great. The large panel and forward
canopy frame restrict things a bit (doesn't apply to the 3 of course).
Airbrakes are more than adequate. Rigging is not too bad. They were
smart enough to provide pins on top of the spars and a lever to fit on
them and pull the wings together just like a Libelle. As far as I'm
concerned EVERY glider that uses a single main pin and cantilevered
pins on the spar ends which fit into bearings in the opposing wing
roots should have this. I curse Grob's engineers every time I have to
deal with one of the club Astir's because they didn't do this and it
makes thing much much harder than they should be.

ASW-15B: (what I currently own and fly) Adequately roomy cockpit for
me (5 ft. 10 and 170lbs.) but not as roomy as the ASW-19 or Cirrus.
Very docile stall spin characteristics, extremely strong airbrakes
(flying at a gross weight of 730 lbs. full airbrakes and a 50 degree
dive doesn't even get me to maneuvering speed) and it can come down
fast using a forward slip. Climbs really well but won't penetrate like
a 19 or Jantar unless it's loaded with water. With the forward hook
and large rudder aerotow is easy. I've never tried the offset C of G
hook. Rigging is easy. The aileron and airbrake connections are easily
accessed and SEEN through the top hatch and the elevator is automatic.
The all flying tail is well designed and doesn't make the glider
twitchy at all. Nice light and responsive ailerons with little
friction. Technical and parts support has been good too. The large
single piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain though.

I live in Canada so a huge factor in my deciding what to buy was the
location of the glider. The fact that the 15 I bought wasn't 3000
miles away or in another country was a major point in it's favor.
There's only about 600 gliders in the whole country and the majority
of them are on the other side of the continent from me. That's not a
problem you're going to have though.

If I were in your place I'd probably go for an ASW-19 or 19B. Most of
the good points of the 15 plus a bigger cockpit, better penetration
and more convenient canopy opening mechanism. The airbrakes aren't as
strong (even with the double blades), the control access hatch is a
bit smaller and the elevator isn't automatic but that's about it for
downsides. It looks beautiful and flies beautiful.

[Hagbard Celine]

You're fortunate that you live in the U.K.; a tiny country with a lot
of gliders. This means you have a lot more choice and it'll be pretty
easy to go look at quite a few gliders.

If you're primary interest is winning club class competitions then you
should look at what glider most commonly wins and buy one of those
(yes, I know that handicapping theoretically means every glider should
be equal but..)

After that you can read Derek Piggott's recommendations and Dick
Johnson's Flight Test Evaluations for some guidance ( they're all on
the SSA website but you need a membership to access them, the Standard
Cirrus B test is available at standardcirrus.org)

Find out which ships you fit in comfortably. As I said above this
should be easy for you as examples of every type you listed will
likely be present at a club not too far away from you. One of the
reasons I didn't buy a Libelle was that I found it too cramped across
the shoulders. A lot of people in my club wouldn't fly the Standard
Jantar we had because they found it too uncomfortable. You never
really know until you try one on for size.

The condition of the glider, particularly the finish is really
important. This applies both to the actual performance (as opposed to
the performance measured when new) and to future maintenance and
resale costs.

As to specific gliders I can speak about the Standard Jantar, ASW-15B
and ASW19/19B from personal experience.

Standard Jantar: The cockpit is long but not too wide (having long
arms is a plus for Jantar pilots). It has a fairly high wing loading
even without water ballast. The landing gear handle can be awkward to
operate as it has to be moved quite far back and your elbow may have
trouble fitting between your ribcage and the cockpit side if you're
average height. It stalls and spins quite sharply but recovers quickly
(at least our Standard 1 did and it's the only one I've flown).
Visibility is alright but not great. The large panel and forward
canopy frame restrict things a bit (doesn't apply to the 3 of course).
Airbrakes are more than adequate. Rigging is not too bad. They were
smart enough to provide pins on top of the spars and a lever to fit on
them and pull the wings together just like a Libelle. As far as I'm
concerned EVERY glider that uses a single main pin and cantilevered
pins on the spar ends which fit into bearings in the opposing wing
roots should have this. I curse Grob's engineers every time I have to
deal with one of the club Astirs because they didn't do this and it
makes things much much harder than they should be.

ASW-15B: (what I currently own and fly) Adequately roomy cockpit for
me (5 ft. 10 and 170lbs.) but not as roomy as the ASW-19 or Cirrus.
Very docile stall spin characteristics, extremely strong airbrakes
(flying at a gross weight of 730 lbs., full airbrakes and a 50 degree
dive doesn't even get me to maneuvering speed) and it can come down
fast using a forward slip (I routinely do spot landings without using
the airbrakes at all). Climbs really well but won't penetrate like
a 19 or Jantar unless it's loaded with water. With the forward hook
and large rudder aerotow is easy. I've never used the offset C of G
hook. Rigging is easy. The aileron and airbrake connections are easily
accessed and SEEN through the top hatch and the elevator is automatic.
The all flying tail is well designed and doesn't make the glider
twitchy at all. Nice, light and responsive ailerons with little
friction. Technical and parts support has been good too. The large
single piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain though.

I live in Canada so a huge factor in my deciding what to buy was the
location of the glider. The fact that the 15 I bought wasn't 3000
miles away or in another country was a major point in it's favor.
There's only about 600 gliders in the whole country and the majority
of them are on the other side of the continent from me. That's not a
problem you're going to have though.

If I were in your place I'd probably go for an ASW-19 or 19B. Most of
the good points of the 15 plus a bigger cockpit, better penetration
and more convenient canopy opening mechanism. The airbrakes aren't as
strong (even with the double blades), the control access hatch is a
bit smaller and the elevator isn't automatic but that's about it for
downsides. It looks beautiful and flies beautiful.

[Cats]

Some of the older (101) Pegs have a self-connecting elevator, which is
a feature that's well worth having. AFAIK it was a feature added
towards the date when they switching to the 90.

It also never surprises me that I fit them (5'3") as does a friend who
is 12" taller. I don't have the seat back right forward, he takes it
out and wears light-weight shoes.

At my height with slightly short legs poportionately, I get a great
view - the back of the canopy is after of my head, and I can just
about make out the tailplane of the glider.

However I've helped enough people with dodgy trailers and rigging aids
to agree that the condition of the trailer comes first. You can make
rigging aids if necessary - for example the chap with an Asir and no
wing root dolly made one as soon as we had used mine to help rig his
glider. He was a very tall guy so without one was having to stoop to
avoid banging the trailing edge on the top of the trailer door frame,
and yes - I think he had a bad back!

[Cats]

On Dec 14, 6:08*am, Hagbard Celine > wrote:
> You're fortunate that you live in the U.K.; a tiny country with a lot
> of gliders. This means you have a lot more choice and it'll be pretty
> easy to go look at quite a few gliders.
>
> If you're primary interest is winning club class competitions then you
> should look at what glider most commonly wins and buy one of those
> (yes, I know that handicapping theoretically means every glider should
> be equal but..)
<snip>

In the UK that would probably mean flying whatever G Dale flies!

You might find some of Derek Pigott's reports online:
http://www.lakesgc.co.uk/mainwebpages/oldsandgmagazines.htm

However I don't think the archive is indexed, so it might take a lot
of time and dedication to find them.

[Sean Fidler]

Get a Lak17a. 1/3 the price and 99% the performance on paper. Love mine...

Sean (F2)

[Tony[_5_]]

On Dec 14, 3:27*pm, Sean Fidler > wrote:
> Get a Lak17a. *1/3 the price and 99% the performance on paper. *Love mine...
>
> Sean (F2)

Lak17a is certainly a nice glider but it does not fit in the club
class handicap range.

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 21:46 14 December 2011, Tony wrote:
>On Dec 14, 3:27=A0pm, Sean Fidler wrote:
>> Get a Lak17a. =A01/3 the price and 99% the performance on paper.
=A0Love
>=
>mine...
>>
>> Sean (F2)
>
>Lak17a is certainly a nice glider but it does not fit in the club
>class handicap range.
>

Can I really get a LAK17a for £15K - where? where?
Then all I'd have is an uncompetitive ship for the 15 and 18m nationals!!

[Paul T[_4_]]

At 18:15 14 December 2011, Cats wrote:
>On Dec 14, 6:08=A0am, Hagbard Celine wrote:
>> You're fortunate that you live in the U.K.; a tiny country with a lot
>> of gliders. This means you have a lot more choice and it'll be pretty
>> easy to go look at quite a few gliders.
>>
>> If you're primary interest is winning club class competitions then you
>> should look at what glider most commonly wins and buy one of those
>> (yes, I know that handicapping theoretically means every glider should
>> be equal but..)
>
>
>In the UK that would probably mean flying whatever G Dale flies!
>
>You might find some of Derek Pigott's reports online:
>http://www.lakesgc.co.uk/mainwebpages/oldsandgmagazines.htm
>
>However I don't think the archive is indexed, so it might take a lot
>of time and dedication to find them.
>

Gee Dale flies a DG100/101? -sold his ASW24 for it has stated at the start
of this thread!
Wish we could leave all this advice re: trailers ect and focus on the
strength and weaknesses of the individual ships mentioned for CLUB CLASS
competition! Thanks for those that have done so.

[Dan Marotta]

Trailer? 20-30 minutes to rig and 5-6 hours to fly. I'd rather have a
comfortable glider!

(Fortunately, I have both... LAK-17a and LAK T5 trailer) ;-)


"Cats" > wrote in message
...
> Some of the older (101) Pegs have a self-connecting elevator, which is
> a feature that's well worth having. AFAIK it was a feature added
> towards the date when they switching to the 90.
>
> It also never surprises me that I fit them (5'3") as does a friend who
> is 12" taller. I don't have the seat back right forward, he takes it
> out and wears light-weight shoes.
>
> At my height with slightly short legs poportionately, I get a great
> view - the back of the canopy is after of my head, and I can just
> about make out the tailplane of the glider.
>
> However I've helped enough people with dodgy trailers and rigging aids
> to agree that the condition of the trailer comes first. You can make
> rigging aids if necessary - for example the chap with an Asir and no
> wing root dolly made one as soon as we had used mine to help rig his
> glider. He was a very tall guy so without one was having to stoop to
> avoid banging the trailing edge on the top of the trailer door frame,
> and yes - I think he had a bad back!

[[email protected]]

Dan, do you own a Mosquito?

On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:35:17 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> In a word: Mosquito.
>
>
>
>
>
> "JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> On Dec 12, 8:40 am, Paul T > wrote:
>
> > Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford
>
> > a
>
> > JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
>
> > bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
>
> > would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
>
> > would be of the following:-
>
> >
>
> > Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?
>
> >
>
> > ASW19/19B
>
> >
>
> > ASW15B
>
> >
>
> > LSIF
>
> >
>
> > DG100/101
>
> >
>
> > Std Jantar 2/3
>
> >
>
> > Glasflugel Std Libelle
>
> >
>
> > Glasflugel Hornet
>
> >
>
> > Pegase
>
> >
>
> > I'll have about £15k max to spend.
>
>
>
> Paul,
>
> The best advice would be to buy a ship to match the soaring conditions
>
> you expect to compete in. The DG-100 climbs like stink, but doesn't
>
> run all that well.....................probably a good selection for
>
> weak conditions, but a looser in strong conditions. Same could be said
>
> for the Libelle and G-102. A Pegasus, Hornet or Jantar would be my
>
> choice for strong western conditions here in the US. Don't discount a
>
> good trailer, remember you will live with a crappy trailer every time
>
> you assemble and disassemble whatever you buy.
>
> Cheers,
>
> JJ

[[email protected]]

In all this strategizing remember that what works for g dale might not work for everyone. G can use lower handicap and catch/ stay with the gaggle. A less stellar pilot will lose the gaggle. A better strategy for a new pilot: get a bit better handicap than the rest and make sure they don't leave you.. Alone. Low. In the blue.

Same goes for starts. A newer pilot should
Start early. Let the big guns run over you and try to stick with them.

Club gliders from the 70s and 80s benefit a lot from clean up and good instruments

John cichrame

[SoaringXCellence]

John Who? "John cichrame"

[[email protected]]

On Monday, December 12, 2011 8:36:09 PM UTC-8, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
> On Dec 12, 8:40*am, Paul T > wrote:
>
> > Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford a
>
> > JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
>
> > bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
>
> > would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
>
> > would be of the following:-
>
> >
>
> > Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?
>
> >
>
> > ASW19/19B
>
> >
>
> > ASW15B
>
> >
>
> > LSIF
>
> >
>
> > DG100/101
>
> >
>
> > Std Jantar 2/3
>
> >
>
> > Glasflugel Std Libelle
>
> >
>
> > Glasflugel Hornet
>
> >
>
> > Pegase
>
> >
>
> > I'll have about £15k max to spend.
>
>
>
> Re-lighting a fire.... I would avoid an LS anything, or a DG anything.
>
> Both for the same reason, though the airframes are fine. Like many, I
>
> recommend a good trailer, good finish, and ease of assembly.
>
> Ruggedness is also a pl

I am an old Ka6 Pilot (ca 500 hours) looking to get back into soaring after nearly 2 decades out Am looking for a good, moderate cost ship with the docility of the Ka6 but enough performance to finish up my badges.
Found this thread.
Curious why you don't recommend 'an LS anything'. I was considering an LS3A..
Also considering an ASW19, H201B. All comments appreciated.
John Murphy

[Van Henson]

A partner and I recently bought a Mini Nimbus, although not for competitions (I don't think, anyway, I'm pretty much a newbie and it's a first glider for me).

But I can echo what others say about thr trailer and ease of assembly. We got a decent Cobra trailer, which does need some work but not much, and every time I fly it I am grateful for the trailer.

When we first tried to assemble it we gave up after about three hours, deciding we'd made a big mistake. But a bit of persistence, very examination of the nevessary alignment, and careful development of a good checklist has me routinely assembling and disassembling it singlehandedly. Worth platinum, that.

And I'm growing to love the way it flies. Great climb (+8 flaps), decent legs, roomy cockpit, comfortable flying at higher speeds (-4 and -7 flaps, I just love them), and an awesome trailing-edge spoiler linked to flaps that drop into speed brake position that allow for very steep descents.

The only thing I don't like (read: hate) is the CG hook. I'm learning to deal with it (negative flaps on starting the TO roll, switching to 0 or +8 before lift off, quite necessary as my ho.e airport features most takeoffs with a quartering tailwind). It's already produced a ground loop on one TO and a PT3 when I yawed right to take out a slack line just as the tow plane turned left, causing the CG hook to back-release.

Now if I could only fly it half as well as it can be flown I would be in permanent heaven.

Van

[Sarah[_2_]]

On Saturday, July 26, 2014 4:23:27 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Monday, December 12, 2011 8:36:09 PM UTC-8, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
>
> > On Dec 12, 8:40*am, Paul T > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford a
>
> > ...
>
>
> I am an old Ka6 Pilot (ca 500 hours) looking to get back into soaring after nearly 2 decades out Am looking for a good, moderate cost ship with the docility of the Ka6 but enough performance to finish up my badges.
>
> Found this thread.
>
> Curious why you don't recommend 'an LS anything'. I was considering an LS3A.
>
> Also considering an ASW19, H201B. All comments appreciated.
>
> John Murphy
>
>

Because of DG's annual service contract subscription requirement for most LS prior to the later LS-8/10, and quite a few older DG sailplanes.

Without this, DG will not sell you parts.

http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/index.php?id=betreuung-e