What to buy...what to buy?

[Carl J. Hixon]

Okay, I always love reading everyone's thoughts on these types of questions
so I'll post one for myself. Well, my wife finally gave me thumbs up to buy
a plane after taking a 6-year break from flying. [We all know the
story...two kids, wife staying home, private school...or some flavor of this
story.] Well, I'm pretty conservative and worry about losing my job, etc.
But darn it, it is about time to pull the trigger and get some wings. I'm
planning on taking my time 18 - 24 months to make a purchase. Once I narrow
down my model types I've got a lot of research and networking to do.



For my cyber friends, here are the base assumptions for your assignment:



$40,000 US cash in airplane fund.

ASEL VFR.

IFR training isn't out of the question but not a priority. I really enjoy
old school flying.



I live in SoCal. Tie-downs are minimum $100 per month but the weather is
good. I'm near the coast so I do suffer from marine layer moisture though.
Hangars, if one can be had, lucky find would be $400, many $800+ ...yeah,
that's a t-hanger. Go ahead and laugh most of you. I'm thinking that this
bird will be parked outside, covered from separate expense funds.



I want to start with $5000 - $7000 in reserve. I don't plan on putting away
a little each flight. It seems easier for me to hit problems in big chunks.
My accountant (wife) seems to hit me just as hard for $100 discretions as
she does with $2000 discretions. It's an event thing not a cash thing. Of
course I will embezzle every nickel I can to minimize the number of known
discretions. Not easy with an accountant for a wife. [I think that she
plays dumb because she must have some offshore accounts that I don't know
about.]



All of my training and most flying has been in Citabrias. I LOVE
taildraggers and I LOVE sticks. I have some time in Piper Archers. I have
some time in a PT-23 which was heaven on earth.or above it. Experimental or
Certified makes no difference to me. BUT, I want a certified engine-call me
chicken.



When I was flying, a lot of the time was spent alone but, everybody waves me
off of single seat aircraft. Having two sons, I'm thinking that two seats
minimum is required. Thoughts of getting the whole family into the plane
are unlikely.



I am 205 lbs. Most of my friends are 200+ lbs. Boy, Americans are fat.
Airplane must be comfortable for two adults.



I was enjoying aerobatic flying and beginning formation flying. Aerobatic
is optional. Typical mission will be the local lunch run and weekend trips.
I don't know of much backcountry flying in SoCal but camping under the wing
and fishing with my son would be a great way to spend time. See...Citabrias
seem to fit my mission pretty well.



I am all over the map on this and would love to hear your thoughts. Engine
needs to have reasonable time left on it...800 hrs+ TBO. I will probably
fly 300+ hours per year. God Bless Southern California.



Here is one candidate that I came up with:

Luscombe 8

+Taildragger

+Sticks

+2 or more Seats

+Inexpensive to Operate

+Should be good on dirt

-Low on power

-Low on speed

-Very light wing loading



Purchase Cost $30,000

Pre-buy $1,500

SQUAK $1000

Reserve $6,000

1st Insurance $1,000
----------------------------------
Subtotal $39,500
Flowers, Dinner, etc $500
----------------------------------
Grand Total $40,000

Feel free to deviate from some of my criteria. Other planes on my radar
include CITABRIA, SWIFT, RV, Maule, Grumman AA5, Navion, etc. but most of
these are out of my price range unless they are basket cases.

Think about it, I want some good answers.

[BTIZ]

what do you want to do with that plane..

grass fields? camping? take the family cross country?

Husky? Super Cub? Fixed Gear Piper? Bonanza? 1 seat? 2 seat? 4 seat?

need to know the "mission" to get the proper "equipment"

BT

"Carl J. Hixon" > wrote in message
news:shCid.100753$hj.51722@fed1read07...
> Okay, I always love reading everyone's thoughts on these types of
> questions
> so I'll post one for myself. Well, my wife finally gave me thumbs up to
> buy
> a plane after taking a 6-year break from flying. [We all know the
> story...two kids, wife staying home, private school...or some flavor of
> this
> story.] Well, I'm pretty conservative and worry about losing my job, etc.
> But darn it, it is about time to pull the trigger and get some wings. I'm
> planning on taking my time 18 - 24 months to make a purchase. Once I
> narrow
> down my model types I've got a lot of research and networking to do.
>
>
>
> For my cyber friends, here are the base assumptions for your assignment:
>
>
>
> $40,000 US cash in airplane fund.
>
> ASEL VFR.
>
> IFR training isn't out of the question but not a priority. I really enjoy
> old school flying.
>
>
>
> I live in SoCal. Tie-downs are minimum $100 per month but the weather is
> good. I'm near the coast so I do suffer from marine layer moisture
> though.
> Hangars, if one can be had, lucky find would be $400, many $800+ ...yeah,
> that's a t-hanger. Go ahead and laugh most of you. I'm thinking that
> this
> bird will be parked outside, covered from separate expense funds.
>
>
>
> I want to start with $5000 - $7000 in reserve. I don't plan on putting
> away
> a little each flight. It seems easier for me to hit problems in big
> chunks.
> My accountant (wife) seems to hit me just as hard for $100 discretions as
> she does with $2000 discretions. It's an event thing not a cash thing.
> Of
> course I will embezzle every nickel I can to minimize the number of known
> discretions. Not easy with an accountant for a wife. [I think that she
> plays dumb because she must have some offshore accounts that I don't know
> about.]
>
>
>
> All of my training and most flying has been in Citabrias. I LOVE
> taildraggers and I LOVE sticks. I have some time in Piper Archers. I
> have
> some time in a PT-23 which was heaven on earth.or above it. Experimental
> or
> Certified makes no difference to me. BUT, I want a certified engine-call
> me
> chicken.
>
>
>
> When I was flying, a lot of the time was spent alone but, everybody waves
> me
> off of single seat aircraft. Having two sons, I'm thinking that two seats
> minimum is required. Thoughts of getting the whole family into the plane
> are unlikely.
>
>
>
> I am 205 lbs. Most of my friends are 200+ lbs. Boy, Americans are fat.
> Airplane must be comfortable for two adults.
>
>
>
> I was enjoying aerobatic flying and beginning formation flying. Aerobatic
> is optional. Typical mission will be the local lunch run and weekend
> trips.
> I don't know of much backcountry flying in SoCal but camping under the
> wing
> and fishing with my son would be a great way to spend time.
> See...Citabrias
> seem to fit my mission pretty well.
>
>
>
> I am all over the map on this and would love to hear your thoughts.
> Engine
> needs to have reasonable time left on it...800 hrs+ TBO. I will probably
> fly 300+ hours per year. God Bless Southern California.
>
>
>
> Here is one candidate that I came up with:
>
> Luscombe 8
>
> +Taildragger
>
> +Sticks
>
> +2 or more Seats
>
> +Inexpensive to Operate
>
> +Should be good on dirt
>
> -Low on power
>
> -Low on speed
>
> -Very light wing loading
>
>
>
> Purchase Cost $30,000
>
> Pre-buy $1,500
>
> SQUAK $1000
>
> Reserve $6,000
>
> 1st Insurance $1,000
> ----------------------------------
> Subtotal $39,500
> Flowers, Dinner, etc $500
> ----------------------------------
> Grand Total $40,000
>
> Feel free to deviate from some of my criteria. Other planes on my radar
> include CITABRIA, SWIFT, RV, Maule, Grumman AA5, Navion, etc. but most of
> these are out of my price range unless they are basket cases.
>
> Think about it, I want some good answers.
>
>

[Carl J. Hixon]

BT, my post must have been boring. Most of your questions are answered in
the original post.

I guess more basically:

Must haves:
2-seats
certified engine
descent range/endurance
electric, transponder

Nice to haves:
taildragger
stick
aerobatic
grass & dirt capabilities
150 - 180 hp

Could care less:
IFR


Husky? Would love one!
Super Cub? Would love one!
Fixed Gear Piper? Warrior, not really.
Bonanza? Nah, not my style.

Did you read my post or did you get bored?

[dave]

Carl,
You've answered your own question. Get a citabria. Don't sweat not
getting the higher HP. Unless you move up to a decathalon, other than
rate of climb the 150HP models can't do anything the 115HP models can't.
The 7ECA also has a higher useful load and cruise happily on 6 GPH.
My citabria can be flown IFR if I add a VOR or ILS. Could a citabria
be used for IFR training? That's a good question. I suppose you'd need
to find the right instructor.

You can get a very nice 7ECA low time example for 30k. I did, and so
far after 13months and about 80 hours I haven't had any suprises. You
MUST use a mechanic that really knows citabria's. There is a wing spar
ad that is a bit of a joke but only experienced citabria mechanics can
do the inspection properly. The biggest problem you'll have is the
hanger. Sunshine and fabric don't get along real well. I was outside
for about 11months. My plane was recovered in 1993 and had a spotty
record as far being hangered prior to my ownership. As a result,
although the fabric is perfect, the red paint on the upper surfaces has
faded.

Check out the citabria group on yahoo.com if you need more info.
There's a great mix of folks over there. They all seem to have
substantially more time flying and maintaining citabrias than I do.

One more thing, although I didn't mind renting too much, I have flown
many more hours in my first year of ownership than I could have as a
renter. It's really been great.

Dave
68 7ECA

Carl J. Hixon wrote:
> Okay, I always love reading everyone's thoughts on these types of questions
> so I'll post one for myself. Well, my wife finally gave me thumbs up to buy
> a plane after taking a 6-year break from flying. [We all know the
> story...two kids, wife staying home, private school...or some flavor of this
> story.] Well, I'm pretty conservative and worry about losing my job, etc.
> But darn it, it is about time to pull the trigger and get some wings. I'm
> planning on taking my time 18 - 24 months to make a purchase. Once I narrow
> down my model types I've got a lot of research and networking to do.
>
>
>
> For my cyber friends, here are the base assumptions for your assignment:
>
>
>
> $40,000 US cash in airplane fund.
>
> ASEL VFR.
>
> IFR training isn't out of the question but not a priority. I really enjoy
> old school flying.
>
>
>
> I live in SoCal. Tie-downs are minimum $100 per month but the weather is
> good. I'm near the coast so I do suffer from marine layer moisture though.
> Hangars, if one can be had, lucky find would be $400, many $800+ ...yeah,
> that's a t-hanger. Go ahead and laugh most of you. I'm thinking that this
> bird will be parked outside, covered from separate expense funds.
>
>
>
> I want to start with $5000 - $7000 in reserve. I don't plan on putting away
> a little each flight. It seems easier for me to hit problems in big chunks.
> My accountant (wife) seems to hit me just as hard for $100 discretions as
> she does with $2000 discretions. It's an event thing not a cash thing. Of
> course I will embezzle every nickel I can to minimize the number of known
> discretions. Not easy with an accountant for a wife. [I think that she
> plays dumb because she must have some offshore accounts that I don't know
> about.]
>
>
>
> All of my training and most flying has been in Citabrias. I LOVE
> taildraggers and I LOVE sticks. I have some time in Piper Archers. I have
> some time in a PT-23 which was heaven on earth.or above it. Experimental or
> Certified makes no difference to me. BUT, I want a certified engine-call me
> chicken.
>
>
>
> When I was flying, a lot of the time was spent alone but, everybody waves me
> off of single seat aircraft. Having two sons, I'm thinking that two seats
> minimum is required. Thoughts of getting the whole family into the plane
> are unlikely.
>
>
>
> I am 205 lbs. Most of my friends are 200+ lbs. Boy, Americans are fat.
> Airplane must be comfortable for two adults.
>
>
>
> I was enjoying aerobatic flying and beginning formation flying. Aerobatic
> is optional. Typical mission will be the local lunch run and weekend trips.
> I don't know of much backcountry flying in SoCal but camping under the wing
> and fishing with my son would be a great way to spend time. See...Citabrias
> seem to fit my mission pretty well.
>
>
>
> I am all over the map on this and would love to hear your thoughts. Engine
> needs to have reasonable time left on it...800 hrs+ TBO. I will probably
> fly 300+ hours per year. God Bless Southern California.
>
>
>
> Here is one candidate that I came up with:
>
> Luscombe 8
>
> +Taildragger
>
> +Sticks
>
> +2 or more Seats
>
> +Inexpensive to Operate
>
> +Should be good on dirt
>
> -Low on power
>
> -Low on speed
>
> -Very light wing loading
>
>
>
> Purchase Cost $30,000
>
> Pre-buy $1,500
>
> SQUAK $1000
>
> Reserve $6,000
>
> 1st Insurance $1,000
> ----------------------------------
> Subtotal $39,500
> Flowers, Dinner, etc $500
> ----------------------------------
> Grand Total $40,000
>
> Feel free to deviate from some of my criteria. Other planes on my radar
> include CITABRIA, SWIFT, RV, Maule, Grumman AA5, Navion, etc. but most of
> these are out of my price range unless they are basket cases.
>
> Think about it, I want some good answers.
>
>

[Carl J. Hixon]

Dave,

Thanks for the reply. A citabria is definitely on my short list. I did 80%
of my training for private pilot in a 7ECA. About 15% of my training was in
a KCAB, and about 5% in a KCAB. The 7ECA had sweet controls and was super
light on the stick. The KCAB didn't feel as balanced but I loved the extra
power. The KCAB was very nice but the rudder on this plane just wasn't
right so I stopped flying it. (others complained as well)

My first flight instructor and now long time friend is a former naval
aviator. He would probably not have an issue IFR training in a Citabria.
Although, as I have gained 35lbs since my PPL training...we would definitely
be over max gross weight. IFR training isn't a real goal right now, but I
should keep it in the back of my mind.

> There is a wing spar > ad that is a bit of a joke but only experienced
citabria
> mechanics can do the inspection properly.

I am guessing that this is the one that had them put holes and inspection
covers all along the underneath of N5025D. I thought that I read somewhere
that the factory would put a metal spar on for a reasonable price. This
would get rid of the AD and add about 100lb useful load? It's been a long
time...

> Sunshine and fabric don't get along real well. I was outside
> for about 11months. My plane was recovered in 1993 and had a spotty
> record as far being hangered prior to my ownership. As a result,
> although the fabric is perfect, the red paint on the upper surfaces has
> faded.

The citabrias that I rented seemed to fair okay out in the sunshine. These
planes never got washed so I am thinking that I could do better. My real
goal would be to find a shared hangar. I've got a friend with a Long-EZ
alone in a hangar...

> Check out the citabria group on yahoo.com

WILCO.

[Henry and Debbie McFarland]

> Here is one candidate that I came up with:
"Carl J. Hixon" > wrote in message>
> Luscombe 8

Luscombes are great. We have two. My 8E has a 100 hp and cruises at 110 mph.
We make about 5 camping trips a year in them. According to the seat style,
they can haul two fat or tall boys just fine.


<CITABRIA> One of our best buddies has two Citabrias. He loves them and
camps from them, too.

Of the two, the Luscombe is more agile, but the Citabria is more roomy.

Have fun,

Deb

--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)

[Dude]

Carl,

You might want to look at a used homebuilt. You get more plane for your
money, but you do have to be extra diligent when buying.

At any rate, you are more likely to get more of your wants in a homebuilt
than certified if you want to avoid fabric (since it is going to be
outdoors).

Its an option that could be argued many ways. IMO, I would want to avoid
fabric unhangared. I am sure many others here would rather have fabric
outside than homebuilt anyway. I have zero fabric experience, so I may be
worrynig needlessly.




"Carl J. Hixon" > wrote in message
news:GHEid.100810$hj.68780@fed1read07...
> BT, my post must have been boring. Most of your questions are answered in
> the original post.
>
> I guess more basically:
>
> Must haves:
> 2-seats
> certified engine
> descent range/endurance
> electric, transponder
>
> Nice to haves:
> taildragger
> stick
> aerobatic
> grass & dirt capabilities
> 150 - 180 hp
>
> Could care less:
> IFR
>
>
> Husky? Would love one!
> Super Cub? Would love one!
> Fixed Gear Piper? Warrior, not really.
> Bonanza? Nah, not my style.
>
> Did you read my post or did you get bored?
>
>

[Doug]

Citabria

"Carl J. Hixon" > wrote in message news:<GHEid.100810$hj.68780@fed1read07>...
> BT, my post must have been boring. Most of your questions are answered in
> the original post.
>
> I guess more basically:
>
> Must haves:
> 2-seats
> certified engine
> descent range/endurance
> electric, transponder
>
> Nice to haves:
> taildragger
> stick
> aerobatic
> grass & dirt capabilities
> 150 - 180 hp
>
> Could care less:
> IFR
>
>
> Husky? Would love one!
> Super Cub? Would love one!
> Fixed Gear Piper? Warrior, not really.
> Bonanza? Nah, not my style.
>
> Did you read my post or did you get bored?

[dave]

I think the wings from ACA are around $18k. There's another company,
Millman, that makes an aluminum spar. Oddly enough, you can't get the
weight increase with their spar. Many think that the cracked spars only
occur on planes that have been damaged, ie ground loop. That's why
it's key to get a mechanic that can recognize a crack in the wood from
odd brush strokes on the varnish.

Dave
68 7ECA

Carl J. Hixon wrote:
> Dave,
>
> Thanks for the reply. A citabria is definitely on my short list. I did 80%
> of my training for private pilot in a 7ECA. About 15% of my training was in
> a KCAB, and about 5% in a KCAB. The 7ECA had sweet controls and was super
> light on the stick. The KCAB didn't feel as balanced but I loved the extra
> power. The KCAB was very nice but the rudder on this plane just wasn't
> right so I stopped flying it. (others complained as well)
>
> My first flight instructor and now long time friend is a former naval
> aviator. He would probably not have an issue IFR training in a Citabria.
> Although, as I have gained 35lbs since my PPL training...we would definitely
> be over max gross weight. IFR training isn't a real goal right now, but I
> should keep it in the back of my mind.
>
>
>>There is a wing spar > ad that is a bit of a joke but only experienced
>
> citabria
>
>>mechanics can do the inspection properly.
>
>
> I am guessing that this is the one that had them put holes and inspection
> covers all along the underneath of N5025D. I thought that I read somewhere
> that the factory would put a metal spar on for a reasonable price. This
> would get rid of the AD and add about 100lb useful load? It's been a long
> time...
>
>
>>Sunshine and fabric don't get along real well. I was outside
>>for about 11months. My plane was recovered in 1993 and had a spotty
>>record as far being hangered prior to my ownership. As a result,
>>although the fabric is perfect, the red paint on the upper surfaces has
>>faded.
>
>
> The citabrias that I rented seemed to fair okay out in the sunshine. These
> planes never got washed so I am thinking that I could do better. My real
> goal would be to find a shared hangar. I've got a friend with a Long-EZ
> alone in a hangar...
>
>
>>Check out the citabria group on yahoo.com
>
>
> WILCO.
>
>
>

[Carl J. Hixon]

"> 1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
> 1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
> 1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)

Now that is marital bliss! He is one lucky guy.

[BTIZ]

ahh.. sorry CJ... it was so long.. my reader did not show all of it.. need
to check on why that happened..

BT

"Carl J. Hixon" > wrote in message
news:GHEid.100810$hj.68780@fed1read07...
> BT, my post must have been boring. Most of your questions are answered in
> the original post.
>
> I guess more basically:
>
> Must haves:
> 2-seats
> certified engine
> descent range/endurance
> electric, transponder
>
> Nice to haves:
> taildragger
> stick
> aerobatic
> grass & dirt capabilities
> 150 - 180 hp
>
> Could care less:
> IFR
>
>
> Husky? Would love one!
> Super Cub? Would love one!
> Fixed Gear Piper? Warrior, not really.
> Bonanza? Nah, not my style.
>
> Did you read my post or did you get bored?
>
>

[Carl J. Hixon]

"BTIZ"

No problem. I cut and pasted the message from Word...since it was getting
long. Only later did I notice all of the extra page breaks that got put in
from the Cut/Paste operation.

Carl

[Henry and Debbie McFarland]

"Carl J. Hixon" > wrote in message
news:vNUid.112907$hj.50407@fed1read07...
>"> 1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
>> 1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
>> 1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
>
> Now that is marital bliss! He is one lucky guy.
>

On some days he's lucky. He seldom gets to work on the C-195 because he's
working on my bird. Plus, he has to work hard to keep me in avgas/mogas.

On the other hand, he's my A&P. I trade home cooked meals and cuddling for
maintenance services. So I guess you can say it works out pretty well! Two
years ago, we had our 20th wedding anniversary and I turned 40. Most women
would get a diamond or two. He bought me a Don's Dream Machine C-85 with the
0-200 STC. I've been speechless ever since.

Deb
--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Henry and Debbie McFarland wrote:
>
> I've been speechless ever since.

Gotta get one of those for my wife! :-)

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Carl J. Hixon]

The more that I ask around and the more that I look into this...the more I
realize that I need to negotiate rides from people at the airport. I don't
want to bother a lot of sellers by kicking tires for a ride. I need to buy
a lot of lunches. I am all over the place with the types of planes I am
considering that one would deduce that I don't know what my mission is. [It
is kind of like my motorcycle theory, you can't have just one...a dirt bike,
a sport bike, a cruiser, etc.] I am stressed about going in the wrong
direction.

Any cyber buddies feel like a free lunch and some gas? I'm looking for
rides in:

Luscombe 8
Grumman Yankee
Grumman AA5
Swift
Pacer
Champ
Navion
Long-Eze
C-170
Etc...

Thanks,
Carl

[dave]

You've got two from my short list, grumman yankee and aa5. I was very
close to getting an AA5. The seller changed his mind about selling so I
didn't even fly it. Then he called me to tell me he would sell it. I
didn't bother with it. Ultimately the realization that I will almost
never need four seats made me go back to the 7ECA. I've never actually
flown an AA5. I've got quite a few hours in tigers and yankees. The
little yankee is a nice flyer. Much more fun than a 150/152.

One other nice thing about the citabrias is the baggage area. Although
it's difficult to access, there plenty of room for soft luggage. I
haven't made any weekend trips but it can handle my golf clubs or my
folding bike with room to spare. The newer models have a baggage door
that can be added to an older model.

Dave
68 7ECA


Carl J. Hixon wrote:
> The more that I ask around and the more that I look into this...the more I
> realize that I need to negotiate rides from people at the airport. I don't
> want to bother a lot of sellers by kicking tires for a ride. I need to buy
> a lot of lunches. I am all over the place with the types of planes I am
> considering that one would deduce that I don't know what my mission is. [It
> is kind of like my motorcycle theory, you can't have just one...a dirt bike,
> a sport bike, a cruiser, etc.] I am stressed about going in the wrong
> direction.
>
> Any cyber buddies feel like a free lunch and some gas? I'm looking for
> rides in:
>
> Luscombe 8
> Grumman Yankee
> Grumman AA5
> Swift
> Pacer
> Champ
> Navion
> Long-Eze
> C-170
> Etc...
>
> Thanks,
> Carl
>
>

[Carl J. Hixon]

Dave,

The only reason that the Citabria wasn't listed on my "ride list" is that I
have plenty of time in them to know exactly how great they are. Of course,
if anybody is offering rides....I wouldn't decline.

[Dave Russell]

"Carl J. Hixon" > wrote in message news:<shCid.100753$hj.51722@fed1read07>...
> Okay, I always love reading everyone's thoughts on these types of questions
> so I'll post one for myself. Well, my wife finally gave me thumbs up to buy
> a plane after taking a 6-year break from flying.

Carl,

I'm so damn impressed that I almost can't type! Taildragger and
sticks... son, you're makin' me proud. :-)

Three points for you:

1.) I sold the 7GCAA (short wing, 160 Hp O-320, no flaps) after 250
hours. It was the right thing to do, but I *LOVED* that airplane.

2.) The Stearman doesn't fit with your mission and needs at all, and
it's the least practical thing one can imagine as airplanes go. But
what the hell... if one turns up, buy it anyway. 8->

3.) Don't wait. Money is cheap right now, and prices are low. It
sounds like you have a pretty good idea about what you want, so I vote
you jump with both feet. NOW. You might possibly find a slightly
better deal if you wait 18 months, but you will absolutely lose 18
months that you could have been flying your own airplane. (I'm
serious about this one. I've always been sorry about the time it took
me to finally put the money on the table.)

Good luck, and we expect an update!

-Dave Russell
8KCAB / N2S-3

p.s. There's a ton of stuff out there, good, bad, and ugly, about the
Citabria factory wings. I think it was worth the extra money for me,
and I much preferred the climb rate available from bigger engine.
YMMV

[Carl J. Hixon]

> 1.) I sold the 7GCAA (short wing, 160 Hp O-320, no flaps) after 250
> hours. It was the right thing to do, but I *LOVED* that airplane.

Flaps, I don't need no stinkin flaps! My flight instructor (former naval
aviator) gives all of his students call signs. My call sign is "slip'er"
for my love of slipping the plane.

> 2.) The Stearman doesn't fit with your mission and needs at all, and
> it's the least practical thing one can imagine as airplanes go. But
> what the hell... if one turns up, buy it anyway. 8->

If I had any chance of parking a plane in my hangar and a Stearman came
along...I'd buy it and change my mission!! The sadest plane that ever got
away was a PT-23. (N63818) I got to know the owner from hanging around and
we got to be friends. He eventually put the plane up for sale but said,
"Listen, if you'll promise to keep the plane in SoCal and take me flying
once in a while I'll sell it to you for $35,000. [He knew how much I loved
the plane and knew that I'd be a good parent.] Anyway, it was the wrong
time in my life, and probably still is due to the expense of proper care.
PT found a home in NC for probably more than twice that price. I sent the
owner a POH I had with a letter just to check up on the old gal. He in
formed me that he was selling her because he had bought a Texan (?). Wish I
could have bought her then. There is just something about a big radial
engine, smoke, oil, and wind in your face...

> 3.) Don't wait. Money is cheap right now, and prices are low. It
> sounds like you have a pretty good idea about what you want, so I vote
> you jump with both feet. NOW.

Money is cheap right now but, this will be strictly a cash deal. I don't
worry a lick about dieing in a motorcycle or airplane crash but, the idea of
losing my job and not being able to make ends meet so that my wife can stay
home and the kids stay out of public school kills me. I refuse to take on
debt for a hobby at least until my kids are off in college which is more
than 10 years out.

Right now I am thinking about upping my purchase limit and am leaning toward
a nice Citabria or Grumman AA1-. I know the Citabria would keep me happy
for years. Haven't flown a Grumman yet although I hear only good things
about them. The side by side seating is a bother when flying with friends
but, it will be better for spending time with my sons.

Carl.
"Slip'er"

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 12:25:30 -0800, "Carl J. Hixon" >
wrote:

Where are you at? I own a C-170B, and it's one of the best all-around
airplanes ever built (one could argue the C-172 might fit that bill,
but I have a weakness for taildraggers....). A & B model 170s are all
metal (you can tie them down outside), they're not a lot of $ to buy
(relatively speaking of course), they are dirt cheap to operate &
maintain + there are very few ADs. They have passable performance
(for a stock-engined bird), especially no problem if you're doing
pretty much flat-land flying. I like Luscombes, but the cabin is so
danged small (+ you can't see out of the thing). The Swift is really
cool as well, but won't be as cheap/easy to operate (parts
availability, plus that retractable gear will cost you). The Champ is
also a blast to own/fly as long as you're not in any great hurry to
get anywhere. Aside from the Pacer, the rest of the airplanes on
your list don't "float my boat". 8^)

Bela P. Havasreti

>The more that I ask around and the more that I look into this...the more I
>realize that I need to negotiate rides from people at the airport. I don't
>want to bother a lot of sellers by kicking tires for a ride. I need to buy
>a lot of lunches. I am all over the place with the types of planes I am
>considering that one would deduce that I don't know what my mission is. [It
>is kind of like my motorcycle theory, you can't have just one...a dirt bike,
>a sport bike, a cruiser, etc.] I am stressed about going in the wrong
>direction.
>
>Any cyber buddies feel like a free lunch and some gas? I'm looking for
>rides in:
>
>Luscombe 8
>Grumman Yankee
>Grumman AA5
>Swift
>Pacer
>Champ
>Navion
>Long-Eze
>C-170
>Etc...
>
>Thanks,
>Carl
>

[Ron Natalie]

Bela P. Havasreti wrote:
> Where are you at? I own a C-170B, and it's one of the best all-around
> airplanes ever built (one could argue the C-172 might fit that bill,
> but I have a weakness for taildraggers....).

I agree...I've got about 35 hours in a 170 (really the only taildragger
time I have since someone else groundlooped the one I was flying and I
went out and bought the Navion before the thing got back on the line).

Certainly, combines the best of the taildragger and the pseudo-four place
172. It's also old enough to get you preferred parking at flyins but not
so unusual that you'll have trouble finding maintenance.

How much are these going for these days?

As for Navions, I'm sort of partial to them, but you're going to have
a harder time finding one for $30K these days. Mine ran about $35
ten years ago (but it was a fairly nice one when I got it). The maintenance
is a bit more involved than the many of the others.

If you want all out speed, bet either the long-eze or the AA5B (again I don't
know how well you're going to do finding one of those for $30K). I'm partial
to the looks of the Swift as well, but they have problems of their own.

[Carl J. Hixon]

> Where are you at?

I am in San Diego, CA.

> A & B model 170s are all
> metal (you can tie them down outside), they're not a lot of $ to buy
> (relatively speaking of course), they are dirt cheap to operate &
> maintain + there are very few ADs.

All of this sounds very good!

> The Swift is really
> cool as well, but won't be as cheap/easy to operate (parts
> availability, plus that retractable gear will cost you).

Yeah, but the swift cool factor is pretty compelling. I need to look at the
experimentals a bit more too. Don't know much about them.

[Carl J. Hixon]

I pasted some classifieds in here to answer the following question:

> How much are these going for these days?

> As for Navions, I'm sort of partial to them, but you're going to have
> a harder time finding one for $30K these days. Mine ran about $35
> ten years ago (but it was a fairly nice one when I got it). The
maintenance
> is a bit more involved than the many of the others.

Yes and the fuel burn is a bit higher. But boy, they are built like tanks.

> If you want all out speed, bet either the long-eze or the AA5B (again I
don't
> know how well you're going to do finding one of those for $30K). I'm
partial
> to the looks of the Swift as well, but they have problems of their own.

I've ridden in a long-eze and I love the speed but I didn't find it very
comfortable. Also, I don't seem to find Long-ezes that the interior has a
nice finish. Not sure why. AA5B's are a bit of a stretc as well.

1948 CESSNA 170 - POLISHED ALUMINUM . $31,500 . OFFERED FOR SALE . A very
nice 170. Polished aluminum and paint. New interior, C-145 w/300-D case TT
3829, SMOH 1049.5, 360 SPOH All AD's and Good Paper work. Clevelands Scott
Tailwheel, Spin-on oil filter Slick Mags, McCauly Prop. 76X53 - STC MoGas
75-76-73-74-73-77 over 80, Good radios, VOR/Loran/Mode/EGT/CHT More

1955 CESSNA 170B IFR . $53,000 . FOR SALE . 4600TT, 1800 SMOH, 600 STOH with
New Cylinders, IFR Certified aircraft, C180 gear legs, Stall Fences,
Met-Co-Air Wing Tips, Gap Seals, V-Brace, KX155 with G/S, Approach Certifed
GX50 GPS, New Panel, AT155 Transponder, Annual 10/2004, EGT, Carb Temp.,
Digital Volt/Amp Meter, Stobe Lights.

CESSNA 170A, 1950 . $35,187.50 . FOR SALE BY OWNER . 1950 C-170A, 3700 TTAF,
O-300A, 1400 SMOH, 5 STOH, new pistons, rings, valves, wiring, starter, 35
amp generator, 25 amp RG battery, Collins 250/251 Nav/Com, Mode C
transponder, electric T&B, double venturii, IFR certified 6/03, Hooker
shoulder harness, interior two years old, oil filter, quick drain, external
power plug, Cleveland wheels and brakes, (wheel pants shown, not included)
auto gas STC, McCauley Prop 7653, new lower rudder skins and mainspring,
4-place Sigtronics SPA-400 intercom wired for two-place, complete original
logs and keys, all manuals and placards per TCDS, annual, engine top
overhaul and anti-corrosion completed 1/04. Interior-8, Exterior-5.

1949 CESSNA 170A . $31,900 . AVAILABLE FOR SALE . 4988TT,1320SMOH on Cont.
o300, At50 transponder W/encoder, MK12DNAV/COM, 4 place intercom, wheel
pants, one piece windsheild. Looks and flies good .

CESSNA 170B . $41,000 . ASKING PRICE SLASHED . IF you are not a tire kicker
and are truly wanting a 170 this is the Best "B" model for the money period.
See earlier ads, click on "Show all previous ads" to see pictures. If you
see it and fly it you will buy it.

1948 RYAN NAVION A . $57,500 . FOR SALE . 225 HP, 2920 TTAF, 135 TSMOH, 30hr
New Porp, n/windshield, n/panel, collins 720 w/GS, Val 760, Audio Panel,
GX55 moving map in-route IFR, DME, mod-c, 60gal fuel, Neo-Air Downdraft
cooling, Leading edge vents, PA tail, Military Paint,Hangered,NDH, Logs
s/new

1949 NAVION . $55,000 . AVAILABLE FOR IMMEDIATE SALE . recent
paint(military), E-225 engine approx 600 hrs SMOH with new recent cylinders,
new prop w/100hrs, cleveland brakes, fuel computer, engine analyzer, nice
interior,60 gals fuel,Mk 12DNav/com w/G/S, GPS Garmin Pilot III;Brittain
auto pilot..flys beautifully... a/c located in North Florida........

1948 NAVION A FOR SALE . $50,000 . MAKE OFFER . 2795 TT, 1538 SMOH, 92 on
new MV prop. Palo Alto tail, MX12 with VOA-8 CDI, SL-60 gps/com connected to
KI-202 CDI, KT-78 with AK-350 encoder, KA-134 audio pannel and AK-450 ELT.
Nice interior, good paint, no damage history, always hangered and all
records from factory test flight on


1977 AA5A CHEETAH . $47,000 . FOR SALE . 1977 AA5A Cheetah, TTAF 2950, SMOH
648, 2 MX11 coms, Narco 11 & Narco 12 w/GS slaved to AP, Narco audio panel,
Century I AP, KLN90 GPS slaved to AP, Garmin 195 GPS, digital tach, digital
OAT, quad CHT, IFR cert, new paint, auto fuel STC, wingtip strobes & more!
Always hangered.

1974 AA5 GRUMMAN TRAVELER . $38,500 . PRICED FOR FAST SALE . 160HP
conversion TTESMOH 915, TTAF 2810, TTSPOH 120, IFR equipped, fresh annual,
Narco MK12 digital nav/com w/GS, KX125, AT50A, Loran, Century 1, wingtip
strobes, canopy cover, P&I-7, cruise @129kts, useful load 905.

REFURBISHED TRAVELER . $45,000 . AVAILABLE FOR SALE . this airplane has been
completally restored and upgraded all parts such as brakes glass exhaust
ect. are new, entire airframe was flush rivited before shot with white
polyurethane and ready for your custom paint scheme, tou will not find a
sweeter traveler anywhere.

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:34:17 -0500, Ron Natalie >
wrote:

I think C-170B model prices start at around $30K-$35K for one that
starts, flies and stops up to $50K - $55K+ for show quality examples.

I always thought it would be neat to move the main gear forward of
the spar on a Navion and stick a tailwheel on the back (has anyone
done this?).

Bela P. Havasreti


>Bela P. Havasreti wrote:
>> Where are you at? I own a C-170B, and it's one of the best all-around
>> airplanes ever built (one could argue the C-172 might fit that bill,
>> but I have a weakness for taildraggers....).
>
>I agree...I've got about 35 hours in a 170 (really the only taildragger
>time I have since someone else groundlooped the one I was flying and I
>went out and bought the Navion before the thing got back on the line).
>
>Certainly, combines the best of the taildragger and the pseudo-four place
>172. It's also old enough to get you preferred parking at flyins but not
>so unusual that you'll have trouble finding maintenance.
>
>How much are these going for these days?
>
>As for Navions, I'm sort of partial to them, but you're going to have
>a harder time finding one for $30K these days. Mine ran about $35
>ten years ago (but it was a fairly nice one when I got it). The maintenance
>is a bit more involved than the many of the others.
>
>If you want all out speed, bet either the long-eze or the AA5B (again I don't
>know how well you're going to do finding one of those for $30K). I'm partial
>to the looks of the Swift as well, but they have problems of their own.

[Ron Natalie]

Bela P. Havasreti wrote:

> I always thought it would be neat to move the main gear forward of
> the spar on a Navion and stick a tailwheel on the back (has anyone
> done this?).
>
Not to my knowledge. The most radical structural changes I know of
whas turning them into twins and there was a once off built to compete
against Beech for what became the T-34 that was a two place with sticks.
I believe someone actually "recreated' one of these after Ryan scrapped
the original.

The other Navion wierdness was one done I think originally at Princeton,
last seen at Univ. of Tennessee which put a lot of extra junk in and
around a Navion to allow it to simulate other aircraft behavior.

[dave]

You said it brother. Don't finance the toys. I was in the same
situation last year and that's why I wanted to limit my purchase to
30-35k. I'd love to own a Steerman or Great Lakes, but I won't finance
any of it. Look hard for something that doesn't need any work. I've
read so many horror stories about guys buying airplanes, cars, boats,
etc. that were "good" deals but turned out to need tons of work. Both
my cars, my boat and my airplane came from caring owners. I can't
afford what I like if it's new so I take my time and find the best used
example I can find.

Good luck
Dave
68 7ECA

Carl J. Hixon wrote:
>>1.) I sold the 7GCAA (short wing, 160 Hp O-320, no flaps) after 250
>>hours. It was the right thing to do, but I *LOVED* that airplane.
>
>
> Flaps, I don't need no stinkin flaps! My flight instructor (former naval
> aviator) gives all of his students call signs. My call sign is "slip'er"
> for my love of slipping the plane.
>
>
>>2.) The Stearman doesn't fit with your mission and needs at all, and
>>it's the least practical thing one can imagine as airplanes go. But
>>what the hell... if one turns up, buy it anyway. 8->
>
>
> If I had any chance of parking a plane in my hangar and a Stearman came
> along...I'd buy it and change my mission!! The sadest plane that ever got
> away was a PT-23. (N63818) I got to know the owner from hanging around and
> we got to be friends. He eventually put the plane up for sale but said,
> "Listen, if you'll promise to keep the plane in SoCal and take me flying
> once in a while I'll sell it to you for $35,000. [He knew how much I loved
> the plane and knew that I'd be a good parent.] Anyway, it was the wrong
> time in my life, and probably still is due to the expense of proper care.
> PT found a home in NC for probably more than twice that price. I sent the
> owner a POH I had with a letter just to check up on the old gal. He in
> formed me that he was selling her because he had bought a Texan (?). Wish I
> could have bought her then. There is just something about a big radial
> engine, smoke, oil, and wind in your face...
>
>
>>3.) Don't wait. Money is cheap right now, and prices are low. It
>>sounds like you have a pretty good idea about what you want, so I vote
>>you jump with both feet. NOW.
>
>
> Money is cheap right now but, this will be strictly a cash deal. I don't
> worry a lick about dieing in a motorcycle or airplane crash but, the idea of
> losing my job and not being able to make ends meet so that my wife can stay
> home and the kids stay out of public school kills me. I refuse to take on
> debt for a hobby at least until my kids are off in college which is more
> than 10 years out.
>
> Right now I am thinking about upping my purchase limit and am leaning toward
> a nice Citabria or Grumman AA1-. I know the Citabria would keep me happy
> for years. Haven't flown a Grumman yet although I hear only good things
> about them. The side by side seating is a bother when flying with friends
> but, it will be better for spending time with my sons.
>
> Carl.
> "Slip'er"
>
>

[Carl J. Hixon]

"> I've read so many horror stories about guys buying airplanes, cars,
boats,
> etc. that were "good" deals but turned out to need tons of work.

Boy have I learned my lesson there!!! I totalled my truck on the freeway
about 4 years ago. [Pilot error to boot] I had just gotten layed off 2
days earlier and was stressing out about not having a job...daymare over
money when BAM traffic had stopped but I had not. Thankfully nobody was
hurt but...okay now I'm really stressed. Decided not to go out and buy a
new car. What does this fool do...

I saw a used Jag XJ6 that looked pretty nice. I had always wanted a jag and
thought, I'll drive this for 6 months and then sell it. I shouldn't lose
more than $1000 and it will be fun. The owner was a doctor, all dealer
service, so I bought it for $8,000 without inspecting it very closely.
[hmm...no pre-buy inspection...] So I drive it for a month. Oh new tires
$800. Drive it for about a month. Oh, $1,500 service repair. Drive it for
a couple weeks. Surprise, another $700 repair charge. This time the Jag
specialist tells me, "There are a few things you should know about this
car..." Quick trip to Ford and a brand new F150. Dumped the Jag for
$2,000. [couldn't rip somebody else off...]

Cost of 6 months Jaguar ownership $9,000. Expensive lesson. We will be
doing some exhaustive research and a thorough prebuy inspection before
purchasing a plane.

Carl.

PS I'm travelling on business for the next 10 days so I'll be disappearing
for a while.

[xyzzy]

Carl J. Hixon wrote:

>
> I saw a used Jag XJ6 that looked pretty nice. I had always wanted a jag and
> thought, I'll drive this for 6 months and then sell it. I shouldn't lose
> more than $1000 and it will be fun. The owner was a doctor, all dealer
> service, so I bought it for $8,000 without inspecting it very closely.
> [hmm...no pre-buy inspection...] So I drive it for a month. Oh new tires
> $800. Drive it for about a month. Oh, $1,500 service repair. Drive it for
> a couple weeks. Surprise, another $700 repair charge. This time the Jag
> specialist tells me, "There are a few things you should know about this
> car..." Quick trip to Ford and a brand new F150. Dumped the Jag for
> $2,000. [couldn't rip somebody else off...]
>
> Cost of 6 months Jaguar ownership $9,000. Expensive lesson. We will be
> doing some exhaustive research and a thorough prebuy inspection before
> purchasing a plane.

Hmm, sounds like you got off pretty easy as far as Jags go.

[Slip'er]

Still looking...not making much progress.

Carl
"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:z4Eid.79752$bk1.4829@fed1read05...
> what do you want to do with that plane..
>
> grass fields? camping? take the family cross country?
>
> Husky? Super Cub? Fixed Gear Piper? Bonanza? 1 seat? 2 seat? 4 seat?
>
> need to know the "mission" to get the proper "equipment"
>
> BT
>
> "Carl J. Hixon" > wrote in message
> news:shCid.100753$hj.51722@fed1read07...
> > Okay, I always love reading everyone's thoughts on these types of
> > questions
> > so I'll post one for myself. Well, my wife finally gave me thumbs up to
> > buy
> > a plane after taking a 6-year break from flying. [We all know the
> > story...two kids, wife staying home, private school...or some flavor of
> > this
> > story.] Well, I'm pretty conservative and worry about losing my job,
etc.
> > But darn it, it is about time to pull the trigger and get some wings.
I'm
> > planning on taking my time 18 - 24 months to make a purchase. Once I
> > narrow
> > down my model types I've got a lot of research and networking to do.
> >
> >
> >
> > For my cyber friends, here are the base assumptions for your assignment:
> >
> >
> >
> > $40,000 US cash in airplane fund.
> >
> > ASEL VFR.
> >
> > IFR training isn't out of the question but not a priority. I really
enjoy
> > old school flying.
> >
> >
> >
> > I live in SoCal. Tie-downs are minimum $100 per month but the weather
is
> > good. I'm near the coast so I do suffer from marine layer moisture
> > though.
> > Hangars, if one can be had, lucky find would be $400, many $800+
....yeah,
> > that's a t-hanger. Go ahead and laugh most of you. I'm thinking that
> > this
> > bird will be parked outside, covered from separate expense funds.
> >
> >
> >
> > I want to start with $5000 - $7000 in reserve. I don't plan on putting
> > away
> > a little each flight. It seems easier for me to hit problems in big
> > chunks.
> > My accountant (wife) seems to hit me just as hard for $100 discretions
as
> > she does with $2000 discretions. It's an event thing not a cash thing.
> > Of
> > course I will embezzle every nickel I can to minimize the number of
known
> > discretions. Not easy with an accountant for a wife. [I think that she
> > plays dumb because she must have some offshore accounts that I don't
know
> > about.]
> >
> >
> >
> > All of my training and most flying has been in Citabrias. I LOVE
> > taildraggers and I LOVE sticks. I have some time in Piper Archers. I
> > have
> > some time in a PT-23 which was heaven on earth.or above it.
Experimental
> > or
> > Certified makes no difference to me. BUT, I want a certified
engine-call
> > me
> > chicken.
> >
> >
> >
> > When I was flying, a lot of the time was spent alone but, everybody
waves
> > me
> > off of single seat aircraft. Having two sons, I'm thinking that two
seats
> > minimum is required. Thoughts of getting the whole family into the
plane
> > are unlikely.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am 205 lbs. Most of my friends are 200+ lbs. Boy, Americans are fat.
> > Airplane must be comfortable for two adults.
> >
> >
> >
> > I was enjoying aerobatic flying and beginning formation flying.
Aerobatic
> > is optional. Typical mission will be the local lunch run and weekend
> > trips.
> > I don't know of much backcountry flying in SoCal but camping under the
> > wing
> > and fishing with my son would be a great way to spend time.
> > See...Citabrias
> > seem to fit my mission pretty well.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am all over the map on this and would love to hear your thoughts.
> > Engine
> > needs to have reasonable time left on it...800 hrs+ TBO. I will
probably
> > fly 300+ hours per year. God Bless Southern California.
> >
> >
> >
> > Here is one candidate that I came up with:
> >
> > Luscombe 8
> >
> > +Taildragger
> >
> > +Sticks
> >
> > +2 or more Seats
> >
> > +Inexpensive to Operate
> >
> > +Should be good on dirt
> >
> > -Low on power
> >
> > -Low on speed
> >
> > -Very light wing loading
> >
> >
> >
> > Purchase Cost $30,000
> >
> > Pre-buy $1,500
> >
> > SQUAK $1000
> >
> > Reserve $6,000
> >
> > 1st Insurance $1,000
> > ----------------------------------
> > Subtotal $39,500
> > Flowers, Dinner, etc $500
> > ----------------------------------
> > Grand Total $40,000
> >
> > Feel free to deviate from some of my criteria. Other planes on my radar
> > include CITABRIA, SWIFT, RV, Maule, Grumman AA5, Navion, etc. but most
of
> > these are out of my price range unless they are basket cases.
> >
> > Think about it, I want some good answers.
> >
> >
>
>