I want to buy a plane by year-end but they're not making it easy.

[T.Roger]

I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to buy
my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
write-off about to expire at year end.

I've been at this since August.
But, hell, they're not making it easy.

All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want to
know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for the
particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going to
waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and they're
not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the position
that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has never
regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if I'm
going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to know
what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then you'll
find out if you love me.

So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.

I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want me
to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 00:21:34 GMT, "T.Roger" >
wrote:

>I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to buy
>my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
>write-off about to expire at year end.

What write offs?

[Bill J]

My student bought a Lancair before he had his ticket. No prob lem oh!

T.Roger wrote:
> I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to buy
> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
> write-off about to expire at year end.
>
> I've been at this since August.
> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>
> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
> planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want to
> know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for the
> particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going to
> waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
> relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and they're
> not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the position
> that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has never
> regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if I'm
> going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
> purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to know
> what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then you'll
> find out if you love me.
>
> So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
> I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
>
> I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want me
> to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.
>
>
>

[Dan Engleman]

"T.Roger" > wrote in message
. com...
>I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
>buy
> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
> write-off about to expire at year end.///
>
> I've been at this since August.
> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>



Hey T. Roger,

I feel your pain (well kinda). I mess with a little real estate and run into
the same thing. In order to look at a property
you must be "pre-qualified" with many brokers. Well.......I may pay cash. So
I am not going to go through the process of filling out a credit
application, etc.

There is a trade off on this though. Real estate agents and aircraft dealers
don't have time to mess with all the "flakes" who would like to buy
something, but don't have the resourses.
You made the statement about "trying" to get financing for a 200k
purchase.....they probably picked up on that. Most people who want to make a
200k purchase don't have any doubt about getting the money, as I don't have
any doubt about getting the money for real estate purchases.

Perhaps if you were a little more circumspect with them?????

Of course if you are 22 years old you will have to prove that you are a rock
star, professional athlete, etc. :-)

Good luck,

Dan

[Dude]

As someone else said, there are plenty of tire kickers asking plane sellers
for demo flights. I have seen this happen before, and there is likely
something about your approach that is making them think you are not a
serious buyer.

Also, many insurers balk at student pilots, especially on a Cirrus. At any
rate, tell us where you are, or how to contact you and maybe I can help you
out. I know a few low people in high places, and would be happy to help you.

I went through all sorts of frustration buying my first new plane. I even
got stood up for an appointment after traveling halfway across the country
to see a plane. Then with barely an apology, they started twisting my arm
for a deposit over the phone!

OTOH, the guy I bought my plane from was top notch, and I still call him
every now and then to say hi. The best and the worst seem to get into
aviation, and not that much in between.




You do not have to buy the plane buy year end to get bonus depreciation
"T.Roger" > wrote in message
. com...
>I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
>buy
> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
> write-off about to expire at year end.
>
> I've been at this since August.
> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>
> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
> planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want to
> know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for
> the
> particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going to
> waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
> relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and
> they're
> not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the
> position
> that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has
> never
> regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if I'm
> going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
> purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to
> know
> what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then
> you'll
> find out if you love me.
>
> So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
> I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
>
> I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want me
> to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.
>
>
>

[Steve Foley]

I am a licensed real estate agent. You would be amazed at some of the people
walking in planning to buy a $200,000 home but have bad credit, no income,
$25,000 in credit card debt, etc.

I learned pretty quickly not to bother with someone who isn't pre-qualified.

There is a saying in the business "Buyers are Liars".

I'm sure Piper, Cirrus and Tiger think you're another wanabe who wants a
free ride in one of their planes. They need some way to weed out the
rif-raf, and unfortunately, you're looking alot like rif-raf.




"Dan Engleman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "T.Roger" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
> >buy
> > my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
> > write-off about to expire at year end.///
> >
> > I've been at this since August.
> > But, hell, they're not making it easy.
> >
>
>
>
> Hey T. Roger,
>
> I feel your pain (well kinda). I mess with a little real estate and run
into
> the same thing. In order to look at a property
> you must be "pre-qualified" with many brokers. Well.......I may pay cash.
So
> I am not going to go through the process of filling out a credit
> application, etc.
>
> There is a trade off on this though. Real estate agents and aircraft
dealers
> don't have time to mess with all the "flakes" who would like to buy
> something, but don't have the resourses.
> You made the statement about "trying" to get financing for a 200k
> purchase.....they probably picked up on that. Most people who want to make
a
> 200k purchase don't have any doubt about getting the money, as I don't
have
> any doubt about getting the money for real estate purchases.
>
> Perhaps if you were a little more circumspect with them?????
>
> Of course if you are 22 years old you will have to prove that you are a
rock
> star, professional athlete, etc. :-)
>
> Good luck,
>
> Dan
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

"T.Roger" wrote:
>
> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
> planes before I buy.

Have you offered to pay them for the flight? Most dealers will be happy to demo
a new plane for about $100.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Ross Oliver]

Why don't you just go rent one for an hour or two? Piper and
Cirrus rentals shouldn't be too hard to find. A Tiger might
take a little more leg work. Renting with a CFI has the added
advantage of counting the time toward "time in type" that your
insurer will inevitably require.

[Matt Whiting]

Steve Foley wrote:

> I am a licensed real estate agent. You would be amazed at some of the people
> walking in planning to buy a $200,000 home but have bad credit, no income,
> $25,000 in credit card debt, etc.
>
> I learned pretty quickly not to bother with someone who isn't pre-qualified.
>
> There is a saying in the business "Buyers are Liars".

That must be the definition of the pot calling the kettle black! :-)

I rank real estate agents right along side used car salesman...

Matt

[tony roberts]

If you are serious, tell them all that you'll pay them $100.00 for the
test flight if they pay you $1000 discount if you buy.
They'll all go for it and as you plan to buy anyway you will save some
cash.

Which Cirrus were you thinking of?
It's a lot of cash to pay for something that isn't certified beyond 4000
hours and can't spin - But that's a whole new thread - just sit back and
watch :):):):):)

Tony



In article >,
"T.Roger" > wrote:

> I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to buy
> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
> write-off about to expire at year end.
>
> I've been at this since August.
> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>
> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
> planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want to
> know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for the
> particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going to
> waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
> relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and they're
> not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the position
> that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has never
> regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if I'm
> going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
> purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to know
> what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then you'll
> find out if you love me.
>
> So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
> I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
>
> I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want me
> to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Marty from Sunny Florida]

T.Roger-

I've spent a lot of time in a new Tiger over the past few months, and would
be glad to set up a demo ride if you're in the Palm Beach area this winter.
Give me a call during business hours at 561.478.1098. I've only been in a
Cirrus SR22 once, and it's a trip, but very difficult to insure without
advanced ratings (expect close to $10,000 per year for ins.). The 180HP
Cessna is nice, but my vote is on the Tiger. Not only is it a ton of fun to
fly, it looks very tight and sporty, unlike the 'stationwagon in the air'
....

I have a bunch of photos and some contact info available online at:
http://palmbeachphoto.com/tiger/

The next aircraft that's available is January 05, but your deposit qualifies
you for the tax break, as long as you make the purchase in 2004.

Regards,
Marty from Sunny South Florida
ps. where are you located ?


"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-CDC431.19293301122004@shawnews...
> If you are serious, tell them all that you'll pay them $100.00 for the
> test flight if they pay you $1000 discount if you buy.
> They'll all go for it and as you plan to buy anyway you will save some
> cash.
>
> Which Cirrus were you thinking of?
> It's a lot of cash to pay for something that isn't certified beyond 4000
> hours and can't spin - But that's a whole new thread - just sit back and
> watch :):):):):)
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> In article >,
> "T.Roger" > wrote:
>
> > I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
buy
> > my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
> > write-off about to expire at year end.
> >
> > I've been at this since August.
> > But, hell, they're not making it easy.
> >
> > All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
> > planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want
to
> > know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for
the
> > particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going
to
> > waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
> > relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and
they're
> > not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the
position
> > that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has
never
> > regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if
I'm
> > going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
> > purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to
know
> > what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then
you'll
> > find out if you love me.
> >
> > So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
> > I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
> >
> > I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want
me
> > to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Tony Roberts
> PP-ASEL
> VFR OTT
> Night
> Cessna 172H C-GICE

[T.Roger]

Yes but with real estate, at least, you can go to an open house!!!


"Dan Engleman" > wrote in message
...
>
> "T.Roger" > wrote in message
> . com...
>>I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
>>buy
>> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
>> write-off about to expire at year end.///
>>
>> I've been at this since August.
>> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>>
>
>
>
> Hey T. Roger,
>
> I feel your pain (well kinda). I mess with a little real estate and run
> into the same thing. In order to look at a property
> you must be "pre-qualified" with many brokers. Well.......I may pay cash.
> So I am not going to go through the process of filling out a credit
> application, etc.
>
> There is a trade off on this though. Real estate agents and aircraft
> dealers don't have time to mess with all the "flakes" who would like to
> buy something, but don't have the resourses.
> You made the statement about "trying" to get financing for a 200k
> purchase.....they probably picked up on that. Most people who want to make
> a 200k purchase don't have any doubt about getting the money, as I don't
> have any doubt about getting the money for real estate purchases.
>
> Perhaps if you were a little more circumspect with them?????
>
> Of course if you are 22 years old you will have to prove that you are a
> rock star, professional athlete, etc. :-)
>
> Good luck,
>
> Dan
>

[T.Roger]

Early on, I offered the east-coast Tiger rep to pay for fuel. It didn't
persuade him.


"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "T.Roger" wrote:
>>
>> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
>> planes before I buy.
>
> Have you offered to pay them for the flight? Most dealers will be happy to
> demo
> a new plane for about $100.
>
> George Patterson
> If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to
> have
> been looking for it.

[T.Roger]

Ah, but the glass, the interior and the parachute!!!



"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-CDC431.19293301122004@shawnews...
> If you are serious, tell them all that you'll pay them $100.00 for the
> test flight if they pay you $1000 discount if you buy.
> They'll all go for it and as you plan to buy anyway you will save some
> cash.
>
> Which Cirrus were you thinking of?
> It's a lot of cash to pay for something that isn't certified beyond 4000
> hours and can't spin - But that's a whole new thread - just sit back and
> watch :):):):):)
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> In article >,
> "T.Roger" > wrote:
>
>> I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
>> buy
>> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
>> write-off about to expire at year end.
>>
>> I've been at this since August.
>> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>>
>> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
>> planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want to
>> know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for
>> the
>> particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going
>> to
>> waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
>> relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and
>> they're
>> not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the
>> position
>> that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has
>> never
>> regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if
>> I'm
>> going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
>> purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to
>> know
>> what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then
>> you'll
>> find out if you love me.
>>
>> So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
>> I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
>>
>> I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want
>> me
>> to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Tony Roberts
> PP-ASEL
> VFR OTT
> Night
> Cessna 172H C-GICE

[T.Roger]

I'm analogizing buying a plane with buying a car. I test-drove my Lexus
before I bought it and I wouldn't have purchased it otherwise. Why in hell
would I buy a Piper without a demo?



"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
...
>I am a licensed real estate agent. You would be amazed at some of the
>people
> walking in planning to buy a $200,000 home but have bad credit, no income,
> $25,000 in credit card debt, etc.
>
> I learned pretty quickly not to bother with someone who isn't
> pre-qualified.
>
> There is a saying in the business "Buyers are Liars".
>
> I'm sure Piper, Cirrus and Tiger think you're another wanabe who wants a
> free ride in one of their planes. They need some way to weed out the
> rif-raf, and unfortunately, you're looking alot like rif-raf.
>
>
>
>
> "Dan Engleman" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "T.Roger" > wrote in message
>> . com...
>> >I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
>> >buy
>> > my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the
>> > tax
>> > write-off about to expire at year end.///
>> >
>> > I've been at this since August.
>> > But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey T. Roger,
>>
>> I feel your pain (well kinda). I mess with a little real estate and run
> into
>> the same thing. In order to look at a property
>> you must be "pre-qualified" with many brokers. Well.......I may pay cash.
> So
>> I am not going to go through the process of filling out a credit
>> application, etc.
>>
>> There is a trade off on this though. Real estate agents and aircraft
> dealers
>> don't have time to mess with all the "flakes" who would like to buy
>> something, but don't have the resourses.
>> You made the statement about "trying" to get financing for a 200k
>> purchase.....they probably picked up on that. Most people who want to
>> make
> a
>> 200k purchase don't have any doubt about getting the money, as I don't
> have
>> any doubt about getting the money for real estate purchases.
>>
>> Perhaps if you were a little more circumspect with them?????
>>
>> Of course if you are 22 years old you will have to prove that you are a
> rock
>> star, professional athlete, etc. :-)
>>
>> Good luck,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>
>

[T.Roger]

A deposit isn't the problem for me. I just don't want to deposit money into
a mystery venture, as the aircraft sellers would want me to do.


"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> As someone else said, there are plenty of tire kickers asking plane
> sellers for demo flights. I have seen this happen before, and there is
> likely something about your approach that is making them think you are not
> a serious buyer.
>
> Also, many insurers balk at student pilots, especially on a Cirrus. At any
> rate, tell us where you are, or how to contact you and maybe I can help
> you out. I know a few low people in high places, and would be happy to
> help you.
>
> I went through all sorts of frustration buying my first new plane. I even
> got stood up for an appointment after traveling halfway across the country
> to see a plane. Then with barely an apology, they started twisting my arm
> for a deposit over the phone!
>
> OTOH, the guy I bought my plane from was top notch, and I still call him
> every now and then to say hi. The best and the worst seem to get into
> aviation, and not that much in between.
>
>
>
>
> You do not have to buy the plane buy year end to get bonus depreciation
> "T.Roger" > wrote in message
> . com...
>>I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
>>buy
>> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
>> write-off about to expire at year end.
>>
>> I've been at this since August.
>> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>>
>> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
>> planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want to
>> know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for
>> the
>> particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going
>> to
>> waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
>> relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and
>> they're
>> not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the
>> position
>> that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has
>> never
>> regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if
>> I'm
>> going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
>> purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to
>> know
>> what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then
>> you'll
>> find out if you love me.
>>
>> So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
>> I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
>>
>> I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want
>> me
>> to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[T.Roger]

Where I train there are a few Cirrus' and no New Pipers or Tigers. Cirrus
has a presence because of their successful shares program but I'd need to
hook up with the share owners to rent. Not likely.



"Ross Oliver" > wrote in message
...
>
> Why don't you just go rent one for an hour or two? Piper and
> Cirrus rentals shouldn't be too hard to find. A Tiger might
> take a little more leg work. Renting with a CFI has the added
> advantage of counting the time toward "time in type" that your
> insurer will inevitably require.
>
>

[T.Roger]

I'll be at my vacation home in the Ft. Meyers area but not much before
year-end, too late to place an order for the tax break. Thanks for
offering.



"Marty from Sunny Florida" > wrote in message
.. .
> T.Roger-
>
> I've spent a lot of time in a new Tiger over the past few months, and
> would
> be glad to set up a demo ride if you're in the Palm Beach area this
> winter.
> Give me a call during business hours at 561.478.1098. I've only been in a
> Cirrus SR22 once, and it's a trip, but very difficult to insure without
> advanced ratings (expect close to $10,000 per year for ins.). The 180HP
> Cessna is nice, but my vote is on the Tiger. Not only is it a ton of fun
> to
> fly, it looks very tight and sporty, unlike the 'stationwagon in the air'
> ...
>
> I have a bunch of photos and some contact info available online at:
> http://palmbeachphoto.com/tiger/
>
> The next aircraft that's available is January 05, but your deposit
> qualifies
> you for the tax break, as long as you make the purchase in 2004.
>
> Regards,
> Marty from Sunny South Florida
> ps. where are you located ?
>
>
> "tony roberts" > wrote in message
> news:nospam-CDC431.19293301122004@shawnews...
>> If you are serious, tell them all that you'll pay them $100.00 for the
>> test flight if they pay you $1000 discount if you buy.
>> They'll all go for it and as you plan to buy anyway you will save some
>> cash.
>>
>> Which Cirrus were you thinking of?
>> It's a lot of cash to pay for something that isn't certified beyond 4000
>> hours and can't spin - But that's a whole new thread - just sit back and
>> watch :):):):):)
>>
>> Tony
>>
>>
>>
>> In article >,
>> "T.Roger" > wrote:
>>
>> > I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want
>> > to
> buy
>> > my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the
>> > tax
>> > write-off about to expire at year end.
>> >
>> > I've been at this since August.
>> > But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>> >
>> > All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
>> > planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want
> to
>> > know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for
> the
>> > particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going
> to
>> > waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
>> > relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and
> they're
>> > not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the
> position
>> > that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has
> never
>> > regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if
> I'm
>> > going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
>> > purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to
> know
>> > what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then
> you'll
>> > find out if you love me.
>> >
>> > So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
>> > I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
>> >
>> > I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want
> me
>> > to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Tony Roberts
>> PP-ASEL
>> VFR OTT
>> Night
>> Cessna 172H C-GICE
>
>

[Cockpit Colin]

Would it work to offer to pay for the flight with the condition that your
money be refunded if you bought?

[Kyle Boatright]

"T.Roger" > wrote in message
. com...
> Yes but with real estate, at least, you can go to an open house!!!
>
>

We call those Oshkosh, SnF, etc...

KB

[Matt Barrow]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "T.Roger" wrote:
> >
> > All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
> > planes before I buy.
>
> Have you offered to pay them for the flight? Most dealers will be happy to
demo
> a new plane for about $100.
>

Three years ago I bought (for cash) an B36TC ("Pre-owned") and the broker
damn near gave me a BJ just to go up with him.

Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[T.Roger]

Any FEMALE Beech brokers out there that you know of?


"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "T.Roger" wrote:
>> >
>> > All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
>> > planes before I buy.
>>
>> Have you offered to pay them for the flight? Most dealers will be happy
>> to
> demo
>> a new plane for about $100.
>>
>
> Three years ago I bought (for cash) an B36TC ("Pre-owned") and the broker
> damn near gave me a BJ just to go up with him.
>
> Matt
> ---------------------
> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO
>
>

[T.Roger]

From whom and where?


"Bill J" > wrote in message
...
> My student bought a Lancair before he had his ticket. No prob lem oh!
>
> T.Roger wrote:
>> I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
>> buy
>> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
>> write-off about to expire at year end.
>>
>> I've been at this since August.
>> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>>
>> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
>> planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want to
>> know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for
>> the
>> particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going
>> to
>> waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
>> relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and
>> they're
>> not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the
>> position
>> that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has
>> never
>> regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if
>> I'm
>> going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
>> purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to
>> know
>> what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then
>> you'll
>> find out if you love me.
>>
>> So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
>> I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
>>
>> I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want
>> me
>> to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.
>>
>>
>>
>

[NW_PILOT]

"T.Roger" > wrote in message
. com...
> I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
buy
> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
> write-off about to expire at year end.
>
> I've been at this since August.
> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>
> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
> planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want to
> know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for
the
> particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going to
> waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
> relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and
they're
> not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the
position
> that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has
never
> regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if I'm
> going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
> purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to
know
> what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then
you'll
> find out if you love me.
>
> So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
> I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
>
> I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want me
> to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.

If you have good credit go to you lender and get pre qualified for a set
amount say up to 300K then go look for a new airplane. You don't have to
take the loan but you will have near immediate availability of funds when
you find the one you like. When you go to a dealer with you finances in
order I am sure they will take you on a demo ride.

But why don't you get yourself a good used aircraft like a 150 do your
training then sell basically get your training for almost nothing or use it
as a low cost time builder after buying a larger aircraft.

New is not always the best choice! New airplanes I am seeing lose a lot of
their value right off the bat New = Negative Equity & Wasted Money. Used
airplanes a few years old seem to hold a reasonable value.

Getting a demo flight in a private party owned airplane may be simpler then
getting a demo flight in a new airplane!

[markjen]

I don't know the details, but it is possible that they simply aren't allowed
by insurance to give demo flights to student pilots. Have they offered to
demo the airplane to you as long as you don't fly it?

The situation isn't exactly the same, but not many car dealers give demos to
customers who don't yet have their driver's license.

My advice is to cool your jets on buying an airplane and finish getting your
ticket. Flying your own plane just adds another distraction. Insurance
will be very, very tough to get. Keep your eye on the ball.

- Mark

[[email protected]]

I have a King KLN90B that has some repair issues. I think it should go
back to King for a rebuild. Is it possible for me to call King and get
an RMA number? Or do I have to go to an avionics repair place.

[Matt Barrow]

"Cockpit Colin" > wrote in message
...
> Would it work to offer to pay for the flight with the condition that your
> money be refunded if you bought?
>
And if he didn't like the product?

Guess which people will be bitching the loudest when the GA markets sours in
a couple of years.

Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"T.Roger" > wrote in message
m...
> Any FEMALE Beech brokers out there that you know of?
>
>

Yeah, AAMOF! http://www.kansasaircraft.com

> >
> > Three years ago I bought (for cash) an B36TC ("Pre-owned") and the
broker
> > damn near gave me a BJ just to go up with him.
> >
> > Matt
> > ---------------------
> > Matthew W. Barrow
> > Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> > Montrose, CO

[nuke]

<< All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
planes before I buy. >><BR><BR>


Uhh, something seems off here.

Cirrus sells a lot of planes to student pilots.

Here in Silicon Valley, where money flows like, well I dunno, they'll certainly
demo you a SR22 or SR20 if you've never flown in a plane before. You need to
have verifiable source of funds of some kind, or they'll dismiss you as a
flake.

If you're for real, I'm sure you can get setup with a demo flight around here.






--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"T.Roger" > wrote:

> Early on, I offered the east-coast Tiger rep to pay for fuel. It didn't
> persuade him.

Maybe Lancair has it figured out. If you go to their "factory", you can
get a demo - but you have to pay something like $150 which covers
a lot more than fuel.


> >> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
> >> planes before I buy.
> >
> > Have you offered to pay them for the flight? Most dealers will be happy to
> > demo
> > a new plane for about $100.
> >
> > George Patterson
> > If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to
> > have
> > been looking for it.
>
>

--
Bob Noel

[Bill J]

Directly from Lancair, via district rep.

T.Roger wrote:
> From whom and where?
>
>
> "Bill J" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>My student bought a Lancair before he had his ticket. No prob lem oh!
>>
>>T.Roger wrote:
>>
>>>I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
>>>buy
>>>my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
>>>write-off about to expire at year end.
>>>
>>>I've been at this since August.
>>>But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>>>
>>>All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
>>>planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want to
>>>know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for
>>>the
>>>particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going
>>>to
>>>waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
>>>relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and
>>>they're
>>>not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the
>>>position
>>>that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has
>>>never
>>>regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if
>>>I'm
>>>going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
>>>purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to
>>>know
>>>what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then
>>>you'll
>>>find out if you love me.
>>>
>>>So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
>>>I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
>>>
>>>I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want
>>>me
>>>to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

Steve Foley wrote:
> I am a licensed real estate agent. You would be amazed at some of the people
> walking in planning to buy a $200,000 home but have bad credit, no income,
> $25,000 in credit card debt, etc.
>
> I learned pretty quickly not to bother with someone who isn't pre-qualified.

Remind me not to hire you as an agent. I can't tell you if I've ever bought
or sold a house to a party that was "pre-qualified" which by the way, pretty
much means squat anyhow.

[Ron Natalie]

Ross Oliver wrote:
> Why don't you just go rent one for an hour or two? Piper and
> Cirrus rentals shouldn't be too hard to find. A Tiger might
> take a little more leg work. Renting with a CFI has the added
> advantage of counting the time toward "time in type" that your
> insurer will inevitably require.
>
Old Pipers aren't hard to find. New Pipers probably can be done.
I can think of only one operation around here that has a Cirrus
for rent, and it's not really set up all that well for the casual
walk in.

[Ron Natalie]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> Three years ago I bought (for cash) an B36TC ("Pre-owned") and the broker
> damn near gave me a BJ just to go up with him.
>
Brokers are a different story than the manufacturers. They're just
flying someone elses aircraft (and frequently at the sellers expense).
The broker I purchased the Navion through was more than happy to let
me fly it. He didn't even want to be in the right seat (I had brought
along an instructor of my own).

[Ron Natalie]

markjen wrote:

>
> The situation isn't exactly the same, but not many car dealers give demos to
> customers who don't yet have their driver's license.

For another reason. Up until recently here the main reason they wanted to
see your drivers license is so they could grab the SSN off it so they could
go run a quick credit check on you.

My wife was surprised they let me go drive a $45,000 vehicle without even
the salesman along (and I pointed out that they had already determined that
I was good for it). We even drove the thing off the lot with temporary
tags and a "promise" to come back and give them a check for the down payment.

[Mike Rapoport]

It is just part of an old saying:

"All buyers are liars, all sellers are thieves"

Mike
MU-2

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Foley wrote:
>
>> I am a licensed real estate agent. You would be amazed at some of the
>> people
>> walking in planning to buy a $200,000 home but have bad credit, no
>> income,
>> $25,000 in credit card debt, etc.
>>
>> I learned pretty quickly not to bother with someone who isn't
>> pre-qualified.
>>
>> There is a saying in the business "Buyers are Liars".
>
> That must be the definition of the pot calling the kettle black! :-)
>
> I rank real estate agents right along side used car salesman...
>
> Matt
>

[Andrew Gideon]

Steve Foley wrote:

> I learned pretty quickly not to bother with someone who isn't
> pre-qualified.
>
> There is a saying in the business "Buyers are Liars".
>

Well...

When I first moved into this area (NJ) with my shortly-to-be-wife, we went
first to a real estate agency to find a place to rent. They wanted us to
fill out all sorts of nonsense before we could even talk to someone to ask
if they'd anything that fit our (rather specific) criteria. When we pushed
the idea that we should know they've something for us before we waste our
time, we were told pretty much what you've written.

We walked. We tell everyone to avoid that place. Or we used to; they're
gone now (it's been years since they disappeared).

We found another place and dealt with them. They treated us royally even
through we were renting some (by their standards) dinky little place. So
we used them when we bought our townhouse. And we used them again when we
bought our house.

At least two pairs of friends also used them on our recommendation, buying
fairly large expensive homes (one of which is downright incredible!).

They're still in business, BTW.

When we first dealt with that better agency, I was a little uncomfortable at
just how well we were treated. Didn't they realize how little we were
spending? From my current perspective, I see the wisdom in their behavior
and I carry that lesson into my own business.

- Andrew

[gatt]

-
"Bill J" > wrote in message

> My student bought a Lancair before he had his ticket. No prob lem oh!

Wow, that's a lot of airplane for a new pilot, isn't it?

-c

[gatt]

"Marty from Sunny Florida" > wrote in message
news:grwrd.15069

>The 180HP Cessna is nice, but my vote is on the Tiger. Not only is it a ton
of fun to
> fly, it looks very tight and sporty, unlike the 'stationwagon in the air'

Having flown both myself, I agree. The 180HP 172 is like flying a sedan.
The Tiger is much sportier.

-c

[Mike Rapoport]

"T.Roger" > wrote in message
. com...
>I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
>buy
> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
> write-off about to expire at year end.
>
> I've been at this since August.
> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>
> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
> planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want to
> know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for
> the
> particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going to
> waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
> relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and
> they're
> not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the
> position
> that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has
> never
> regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if I'm
> going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
> purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to
> know
> what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then
> you'll
> find out if you love me.
>
> So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
> I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
>
> I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want me
> to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.
>

It is probably too late now but when asked for financial information that I
think is unjustified, I have always jsut said: "No, I am not going to
provide that". I am fairly certain that nobody with any real net worth
would disclose their financials to a salesman.

Mike
MU-2

[NW_PILOT]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> markjen wrote:
>
> >
> > The situation isn't exactly the same, but not many car dealers give
demos to
> > customers who don't yet have their driver's license.
>
> For another reason. Up until recently here the main reason they wanted
to
> see your drivers license is so they could grab the SSN off it so they
could
> go run a quick credit check on you.
>
> My wife was surprised they let me go drive a $45,000 vehicle without even
> the salesman along (and I pointed out that they had already determined
that
> I was good for it). We even drove the thing off the lot with temporary
> tags and a "promise" to come back and give them a check for the down
payment.


I don't think anyone is allowed to run a credit check with out your
permission. Not all states use a ssn as a DL number.

[NW_PILOT]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "T.Roger" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
> >buy
> > my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
> > write-off about to expire at year end.
> >
> > I've been at this since August.
> > But, hell, they're not making it easy.
> >
> > All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
> > planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want
to
> > know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for
> > the
> > particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going
to
> > waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
> > relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and
> > they're
> > not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the
> > position
> > that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has
> > never
> > regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if
I'm
> > going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
> > purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to
> > know
> > what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then
> > you'll
> > find out if you love me.
> >
> > So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
> > I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
> >
> > I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want
me
> > to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.
> >
>
> It is probably too late now but when asked for financial information that
I
> think is unjustified, I have always jsut said: "No, I am not going to
> provide that". I am fairly certain that nobody with any real net worth
> would disclose their financials to a salesman.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>

Nope not to the sales man but maybe to a finance manager!

[Matt Barrow]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> markjen wrote:
>
> >
> > The situation isn't exactly the same, but not many car dealers give
demos to
> > customers who don't yet have their driver's license.
>
> For another reason. Up until recently here the main reason they wanted
to
> see your drivers license is so they could grab the SSN off it so they
could
> go run a quick credit check on you.

Most states (??) don't use the SSN on the drivers license (optional for some
states).
>
> My wife was surprised they let me go drive a $45,000 vehicle without even
> the salesman along (and I pointed out that they had already determined
that
> I was good for it). We even drove the thing off the lot with temporary
> tags and a "promise" to come back and give them a check for the down
payment.

What did you drive into the dealership in? Beater or newer comparable model.

On the other hand, Mercedes-Benz dealers won't give any test
drives...period. I showed up to look at an E500 in my wife's one year old
Infiniti Q-45 and they still wanted me to buy it without driving it.
--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Dude]

My reaction was even worse than yours. I told them that if their product was
so bad that they could only sell it to people who had not flown it, then I
did not want one. And, if they could not be trusted to show up for a
meeting, I certainly could not trust them with a deposit.

However. If you give me your name and the city you live in, I will see what
I can do about getting you a demo.



"T.Roger" > wrote in message
. com...
>A deposit isn't the problem for me. I just don't want to deposit money into
>a mystery venture, as the aircraft sellers would want me to do.
>
>
> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
>> As someone else said, there are plenty of tire kickers asking plane
>> sellers for demo flights. I have seen this happen before, and there is
>> likely something about your approach that is making them think you are
>> not a serious buyer.
>>
>> Also, many insurers balk at student pilots, especially on a Cirrus. At
>> any rate, tell us where you are, or how to contact you and maybe I can
>> help you out. I know a few low people in high places, and would be happy
>> to help you.
>>
>> I went through all sorts of frustration buying my first new plane. I
>> even got stood up for an appointment after traveling halfway across the
>> country to see a plane. Then with barely an apology, they started
>> twisting my arm for a deposit over the phone!
>>
>> OTOH, the guy I bought my plane from was top notch, and I still call him
>> every now and then to say hi. The best and the worst seem to get into
>> aviation, and not that much in between.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You do not have to buy the plane buy year end to get bonus depreciation
>> "T.Roger" > wrote in message
>> . com...
>>>I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
>>>buy
>>> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
>>> write-off about to expire at year end.
>>>
>>> I've been at this since August.
>>> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>>>
>>> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
>>> planes before I buy. But if you don't have your ticket they don't want
>>> to
>>> know you. They take the position that I should secure the financing for
>>> the
>>> particular plane before I demo. I take the position that I'm not going
>>> to
>>> waste my time if I'm not in love with the plane. I tell them that I'm
>>> relegated to buying a C172 because that's the only plane I know and
>>> they're
>>> not making it easy for me to consider anything else. They take the
>>> position
>>> that "...every customer who's bought their 'so-and-so-brand-plane' has
>>> never
>>> regretted it and has never gone back to a C172. I say: kiss my a**: if
>>> I'm
>>> going to effort to run around trying to convince a bank to finance my
>>> purchase @ $200,000 or more (you know what that's like) then I want to
>>> know
>>> what in hell I'm buying!! They're sort of saying: marry me and then
>>> you'll
>>> find out if you love me.
>>>
>>> So far, I haven't had one demo since I started the search in August.
>>> I thought GA was hurting; I guess not.
>>>
>>> I train in C172's, and I guess that's what Cirrus, Piper and Tiger want
>>> me
>>> to buy because they don't seem interested in my business.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Dude]

It is legal to run a credit check on anyone if you do it for a legitimate
business purpose. Auto dealers can run a check on you without your
permission.

However, since FICO scores reflect a negative value for each recent check,
many business have started asking permission to avoid damaging your credit
and getting a bad reaction from you.



"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
>> markjen wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > The situation isn't exactly the same, but not many car dealers give
> demos to
>> > customers who don't yet have their driver's license.
>>
>> For another reason. Up until recently here the main reason they wanted
> to
>> see your drivers license is so they could grab the SSN off it so they
> could
>> go run a quick credit check on you.
>>
>> My wife was surprised they let me go drive a $45,000 vehicle without even
>> the salesman along (and I pointed out that they had already determined
> that
>> I was good for it). We even drove the thing off the lot with temporary
>> tags and a "promise" to come back and give them a check for the down
> payment.
>
>
> I don't think anyone is allowed to run a credit check with out your
> permission. Not all states use a ssn as a DL number.
>
>

[Dude]

Having driven many of them, I understand why they would not want you to
drive it.

The BMW has a much better driving experience.


"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
>> markjen wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > The situation isn't exactly the same, but not many car dealers give
> demos to
>> > customers who don't yet have their driver's license.
>>
>> For another reason. Up until recently here the main reason they wanted
> to
>> see your drivers license is so they could grab the SSN off it so they
> could
>> go run a quick credit check on you.
>
> Most states (??) don't use the SSN on the drivers license (optional for
> some
> states).
>>
>> My wife was surprised they let me go drive a $45,000 vehicle without even
>> the salesman along (and I pointed out that they had already determined
> that
>> I was good for it). We even drove the thing off the lot with temporary
>> tags and a "promise" to come back and give them a check for the down
> payment.
>
> What did you drive into the dealership in? Beater or newer comparable
> model.
>
> On the other hand, Mercedes-Benz dealers won't give any test
> drives...period. I showed up to look at an E500 in my wife's one year old
> Infiniti Q-45 and they still wanted me to buy it without driving it.
> --
> Matt
> ---------------------
> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

NW_PILOT wrote:

>
> I don't think anyone is allowed to run a credit check with out your
> permission. Not all states use a ssn as a DL number.
>
>
Chortle...of course they run them without your permission.
Virginia only switched away from SSN's in the past year or so.
Many people who haven't renewed (they're good for 5 years) still
have SSN's.
'

[Ron Natalie]

Dude wrote:
> Having driven many of them, I understand why they would not want you to
> drive it.

Mercedes had a special event last summer when they invited a whole slew
of people out to the parking lot of the local pro sports team and drove
a few hot autocross laps with a professional driver (mind you they wouldn't
let us do that ourselves), they also let us test drive a few models in the
lot (at lower speeds) and test a car with AWD (or was it antilock) on a little
soapy skid pad.

All it did is convince me I didn't want a Mercedes. Even the so called
"sports" models had steering and handling that you'd expect from a limosine.

>
>

[Aaron Coolidge]

In rec.aviation.owning tony roberts > wrote:
: Which Cirrus were you thinking of?
: It's a lot of cash to pay for something that isn't certified beyond 4000
: hours and can't spin - But that's a whole new thread - just sit back and
: watch :):):):):)

According to Rev 7 of the Cirrus TCDS (A00009CH), August 15th 2004, both
Cirrus models have an airframe life limit of 12,000 hours.
--
Aaron Coolidge

[xyzzy]

NW_PILOT wrote:

> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>markjen wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The situation isn't exactly the same, but not many car dealers give
>
> demos to
>
>>>customers who don't yet have their driver's license.
>>
>>For another reason. Up until recently here the main reason they wanted
>
> to
>
>>see your drivers license is so they could grab the SSN off it so they
>
> could
>
>>go run a quick credit check on you.
>>
>>My wife was surprised they let me go drive a $45,000 vehicle without even
>>the salesman along (and I pointed out that they had already determined
>
> that
>
>>I was good for it). We even drove the thing off the lot with temporary
>>tags and a "promise" to come back and give them a check for the down
>
> payment.
>
>
> I don't think anyone is allowed to run a credit check with out your
> permission. Not all states use a ssn as a DL number.
>
>

They do it, and they can prolly use your DL # to look you up even if
it's not an SSN. I took to telling them as I handed them my license "I
am specifically NOT giving you permission to run a credit check with
this information, and I'm sure your finance guy knows that I can look up
inquiries in my report to verify that you did not." That often gets a
double-take from them but they never ran the check when I told them that.

[Dude]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> Dude wrote:
>> Having driven many of them, I understand why they would not want you to
>> drive it.
>
> Mercedes had a special event last summer when they invited a whole slew
> of people out to the parking lot of the local pro sports team and drove
> a few hot autocross laps with a professional driver (mind you they
> wouldn't
> let us do that ourselves), they also let us test drive a few models in the
> lot (at lower speeds) and test a car with AWD (or was it antilock) on a
> little
> soapy skid pad.
>
> All it did is convince me I didn't want a Mercedes. Even the so called
> "sports" models had steering and handling that you'd expect from a
> limosine.
>
>>


Yep, my impression exactly. I haven't tried that G model, but I bet it has
wonderful SUV handling. All their cars do.

[Ron Natalie]

Dude wrote:

>>
>
>
> Yep, my impression exactly. I haven't tried that G model, but I bet it has
> wonderful SUV handling. All their cars do.
>
>

My SUV is more responsive. I swear they put shock absorbers on
the steering linkages.

[C Kingsbury]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> It is probably too late now but when asked for financial information that
I
> think is unjustified, I have always jsut said: "No, I am not going to
> provide that". I am fairly certain that nobody with any real net worth
> would disclose their financials to a salesman.
>

I work in sales. One of the first things you do, whether you're selling
cars, houses, or corporate software, is figure out whether the guy you're
talking to can spend the money to buy your product. The more it costs you to
dance with him, the more you want to qualify it.

You can usually tell one way or the other if someone has money. I once
worked in a fancy retail store and saw this guy walk in wearing ripped jeans
and a dirty T-shirt. No one else paid any attention to the guy because he
looked like a bum. As I walked past him I glanced at his wrist and saw a
Swiss watch probably worth more than the BMW that the guy in a suit next to
him drove. Needless to say the "bum" nobody wanted to deal with left with
$1000 of cigars. Shoes are another big giveaway. The average observer sees
three guys in suits. The skilled one sees one guy wearing Bally loafers and
two guys in department-store shoes.

There's also plenty of psychological "tells" that a smart salesperson knows
to look for. Do they look comfortable and at ease, or are they anxious
because they think they might be out of their league? How long do they take
before asking the price? If they ask right away they're either totally
serious or totally tire-kicking. I don't mind tire-kickers who know they
are, because they won't cost me valuable time. If I'm not busy I can chew
the fat with them for a while, then blow out if a real customer shows up.
It's the guy in between who spikes me. He spends an hour looking at it and
then decides in the end he needs to spend the money on new siding instead.

In real big-ticket items like cars or real estate, it's not unusual that you
really don't even see the smart and or wealthy buyer face-to-face until the
deal is closed. If they're buying a car they do it by faxing or calling the
sales manager directly, and if they're buying property, they often do so
through a buyer's agent. The biggest money is often the quietest.

-cwk.

[Dude]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> link.net...
>>

SNIP

If they're buying a car they do it by faxing or calling the
> sales manager directly, and if they're buying property, they often do so
> through a buyer's agent. The biggest money is often the quietest.
>
> -cwk.
>

So true. My mom is a secretary, and I doubt her last boss ever bought much
that he did not just ask her to get. She has called me a million times
asking what type of computer or gadget to get. Seriously, he would want a
new cell phone, laptop, or camera and we would decide for him and she would
charge it on his card.

[Ross Oliver]

When I was in the market for an aircraft, I flew (airline) from
San Jose, CA to New Mexico to test fly one potential aircraft, and
to Florida to test fly another. If you're really serious, distance
is not an issue ;-) If you were to simply show up at the Piper,
Tiger, or Cirrus factory, I'm sure they would consider you a worthy
enough prospect to justify a demo flight.

Alternatively, West Valley Flying Club @ PAO/SQL/HWD has nine (count 'em NINE)
Cirrus, 2 2000 Piper Archers, and a '79 Tiger for rent. For good
measure, there is also a Diamond DA-40 for rent @ SQL at another FBO.
And the December weather in here in Norcal is wonderful ;-)


On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 04:40:25 GMT, T.Roger > wrote:
>Where I train there are a few Cirrus' and no New Pipers or Tigers. Cirrus
>has a presence because of their successful shares program but I'd need to
>hook up with the share owners to rent. Not likely.

[Bill J]

Yep, first hours PIC after PVT were at factory check out course. All
advised against it. You wouldn't believe insurance
premiums/deductable...But both Cirrus and Lancair beat a path to demo it
to him.

gatt wrote:
> -
> "Bill J" > wrote in message
>
>
>>My student bought a Lancair before he had his ticket. No prob lem oh!
>
>
> Wow, that's a lot of airplane for a new pilot, isn't it?
>
> -c
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

On 2-Dec-2004, Andrew Gideon > wrote:

> We found another place and dealt with them. They treated us royally even
> through we were renting some (by their standards) dinky little place. So
> we used them when we bought our townhouse. And we used them again when
> we> bought our house.
>
> At least two pairs of friends also used them on our recommendation, buying
> fairly large expensive homes (one of which is downright incredible!).
>
> They're still in business, BTW.


It's the same reason that smart FBOs, that plan to be around for a while,
offer good service to a young guy dropping by in need of just a few gallons
of avgas for his 172.
--
-Elliott Drucker

[Matt Whiting]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> "T.Roger" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>>Any FEMALE Beech brokers out there that you know of?
>>
>>
>
>
> Yeah, AAMOF! http://www.kansasaircraft.com

OK, any good looking female brokers... :-)

[Matt Barrow]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> You can usually tell one way or the other if someone has money. I once
> worked in a fancy retail store and saw this guy walk in wearing ripped
jeans
> and a dirty T-shirt. No one else paid any attention to the guy because he
> looked like a bum. As I walked past him I glanced at his wrist and saw a
> Swiss watch probably worth more than the BMW that the guy in a suit next
to
> him drove. Needless to say the "bum" nobody wanted to deal with left with
> $1000 of cigars. Shoes are another big giveaway. The average observer sees
> three guys in suits. The skilled one sees one guy wearing Bally loafers
and
> two guys in department-store shoes.

A former boss of mine drove a five year old Buick, wore Sears clothes, a
Seiko $150 watch (a gift from his daughter) and when writing during a
meeting once I tesed him because he used a "Brakes Plus" BIC pen. His wife
had a simple, inexpensive wedding ring. He often wore jeans and cowboy
boots.

He was worth some $15million. And, no, he wasn't miserly at all.

>
> In real big-ticket items like cars or real estate, it's not unusual that
you
> really don't even see the smart and or wealthy buyer face-to-face until
the
> deal is closed. If they're buying a car they do it by faxing or calling
the
> sales manager directly, and if they're buying property, they often do so
> through a buyer's agent. The biggest money is often the quietest.

Usually.

[tony roberts]

That's good to hear - Thanks.
The 4000 hours had to have lost them sales

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE


In article >,
Aaron Coolidge > wrote:

> In rec.aviation.owning tony roberts > wrote:
> : Which Cirrus were you thinking of?
> : It's a lot of cash to pay for something that isn't certified beyond 4000
> : hours and can't spin - But that's a whole new thread - just sit back and
> : watch :):):):):)
>
> According to Rev 7 of the Cirrus TCDS (A00009CH), August 15th 2004, both
> Cirrus models have an airframe life limit of 12,000 hours.

[Cockpit Colin]

Couldn't agree more - however - the down side of a lose / lose situation is
that the client is one of the losers too - which is what we're trying to
work around.


"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cockpit Colin" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Would it work to offer to pay for the flight with the condition that
your
> > money be refunded if you bought?
> >
> And if he didn't like the product?
>
> Guess which people will be bitching the loudest when the GA markets sours
in
> a couple of years.
>
> Matt
> ---------------------
> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO
>
>

[Henry A. Spellman]

C Kingsbury wrote:

Big snip

>
> In real big-ticket items like cars or real estate, it's not unusual that you
> really don't even see the smart and or wealthy buyer face-to-face until the
> deal is closed. If they're buying a car they do it by faxing or calling the
> sales manager directly, and if they're buying property, they often do so
> through a buyer's agent. The biggest money is often the quietest.
>
> -cwk.
>
>
One day, while working in the yard in his old Navy boondockers, an old
tee shirt, and old ripped blue jeans, my younger brother decided it was
time to buy the Mercedes that he had always wanted. So, without
changing clothes, he stuck his check book in his hip pocket, jumped on
his motorcycle, and drove 30 miles to the nearest dealer.

As he walked in the dealership, he saw exactly the car he wanted- all
the options and even the right color. So he stood around with his
checkbook in hand trying to look like a customer. The salesmen, all
playing gin rummy at the counter, studiously ignored him. Finally,
after about ten minutes, one of them decided that this guy was not going
to leave until somebody talked to him. So the salesman walked over to
my brother and asked if he could help him.

My brother said, "Yes. I want to buy this automobile. How much is it?"

The salesman replied, "It is really expensive, and the upkeep is quite
high, too. But we have some really clean one owner used car out on the
lot. I would be happy to show them to you."

My brother said, "No. I want to buy this car. How much is it?"

The salesman again went through the nice clean used car bit.

My brother, now barely in control of his temper, coldly looked the
salesman in the eye and said, "I don't want a used car. I want to buy
this car. HOW MUCH IS IT?"

When the salesman started with the used car bit again, my brother left.
On the way back, he became more and more angry, so he stopped by our
father's house to tell him the story.

After hearing the whole story, my father said, "If you still want the
car, go home, put on a suit, and drive back down there in your
Rolls-Royce. I am sure that they will sell a car to anybody driving a
Rolls."

Postscript 1: He bought a BMW.

Postscript 2: Several years later, my brother was the lead CPA on the
staff doing the annual audit of guess what large automobile dealership.
After the closing conference, the owner asked if my brother had any
observations he might like to pass along, even beyond financial matters,
to help the owner in his business. My brother related this story. The
owner asked if he could still identify the salesman. My brother pointed
to a salesman visible through the office window. The owner sighed, and
then said, "It figures. He is my son-in-law."

Hank
Comanche N5903P

[C Kingsbury]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
>
> A former boss of mine drove a five year old Buick, wore Sears clothes, a
> Seiko $150 watch (a gift from his daughter) and when writing during a
> meeting once I tesed him because he used a "Brakes Plus" BIC pen. His wife
> had a simple, inexpensive wedding ring. He often wore jeans and cowboy
> boots.
>
> He was worth some $15million. And, no, he wasn't miserly at all.
>

I've been working on starting my own company for quite some time now, and
about a month ago I sold my "nice" car and traded down to a very modest
little 2-door ford coupe to get rid of my monthly payments and extract some
equity as the car was worth more than I owed on it. When I bought the car it
had been my sign of arrival, that I finally was doing well enough to not
worry about every little bit. As I watched it drive away, I said, "well, in
a year or so when the business starts to hum I'll get that Audi convertible
I really want."

Funny thing is, now that I've been driving my 1998 Escort around for a
month, I'm saying, "geez, this ain't so bad. Maybe I'll get the Chrysler
instead of the Audi and save the money for the plane/boat/condo."

It's sometimes funny how skimping regularly on the little things can in time
add up to enough to pay for the big ones. Living in a high-cost city does
not make this easy...

-cwk.

[Roger]

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 19:53:31 -0500, Bill J > wrote:

>Yep, first hours PIC after PVT were at factory check out course. All
>advised against it. You wouldn't believe insurance

Experienced pilot in a Cirrus is over 7 grand the first year. At
least it is for a coupld on the field who just bought a new one.

The more I read on the Cirrus the less I like it, but the Lancair
series are great.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

> premiums/deductable...But both Cirrus and Lancair beat a path to demo it
> to him.
>
>gatt wrote:
>> -
>> "Bill J" > wrote in message
>>
>>
>>>My student bought a Lancair before he had his ticket. No prob lem oh!
>>
>>
>> Wow, that's a lot of airplane for a new pilot, isn't it?
>>
>> -c
>>
>>
>>

[Roger]

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 04:40:25 GMT, "T.Roger" >
wrote:

>Early on, I offered the east-coast Tiger rep to pay for fuel. It didn't
>persuade him.
>

IF a customer is serious about purchasing and wants a demo ride they
offer to pay for and hour of two of aircraft time, not gas!
Prices have gone up. You are probably looking at more like $150 to
$200 instead of $100, but it depends on what mood they are in and just
how serious (and capable) you present yourself.

Offering to pay for the fuel does sound like a tire kicker to them.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> "T.Roger" wrote:
>>>
>>> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
>>> planes before I buy.
>>
>> Have you offered to pay them for the flight? Most dealers will be happy to
>> demo
>> a new plane for about $100.
>>
>> George Patterson
>> If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to
>> have
>> been looking for it.
>

[Dude]

If someone is actually serious, then they should not be asked for money for
a demonstration IMO.

I didn't pay anyone. I also did not take any rides I wasn't serious about.
I told one guy at an open house that I did want to come see the plane, but
that I was not a good prospect and he should spend his time working others.
I am sure he appreciated that. He still offered a ride. I suspect that he
considered me a good prospect and thought the ride might sway me.

If I were determined, I would rather go get the prequalification and an
insurance quote. Then, if I got asked for them, I would ask point blank why
the guy thought I wasn't serious. He better have a tactful answer, or my
next conversation would be with his boss.

I suspect that something about T Roger is causing all of these guys to have
the same reaction, and he seems to be oblivious to it. It may be
misleading, or not.



"T.Roger" > wrote in message
. com...
> Early on, I offered the east-coast Tiger rep to pay for fuel. It didn't
> persuade him.
>
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "T.Roger" wrote:
>>>
>>> All I've asked of Cirrus, Piper and Tiger is if I can demo their damned
>>> planes before I buy.
>>
>> Have you offered to pay them for the flight? Most dealers will be happy
>> to demo
>> a new plane for about $100.
>>
>> George Patterson
>> If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to
>> have
>> been looking for it.
>
>

[Cub Driver]

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 19:37:53 -0500, Bill J > wrote:

>My student bought a Lancair before he had his ticket. No prob lem oh!

Fellow at the local airfield bought a Piper Cub while in training,
then the FAA took a year to give him a medical! Blood pressure, I
think.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 06:42:49 GMT, "markjen"
> wrote:

>My advice is to cool your jets on buying an airplane and finish getting your
>ticket. Flying your own plane just adds another distraction. Insurance
>will be very, very tough to get. Keep your eye on the ball.

I think he's concerned about getting the tax writeoff. Presumably he
has a business, and this is a business expense. It's 50 percent, a big
deal, probably wipe out his taxes for a couple of years.

Seems a bit late in the day!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[John T]

I do believe the tax writeoff thing has been extended. Haven't been
paying attention to it, but thats what I recall.

John

[xyzzy]

Henry A. Spellman wrote:

> Postscript 2: Several years later, my brother was the lead CPA on the
> staff doing the annual audit of guess what large automobile dealership.
> After the closing conference, the owner asked if my brother had any
> observations he might like to pass along, even beyond financial matters,
> to help the owner in his business. My brother related this story. The
> owner asked if he could still identify the salesman. My brother pointed
> to a salesman visible through the office window. The owner sighed, and
> then said, "It figures. He is my son-in-law."

Kinda like that guy in the FedEx commercial, he's stuck.

You know, the one where the boss has this conversation with the slacker
office worker who his throwing pencils at the ceiling while he's talking:

"Did that package get there on time?"

"Ummm no"

"Did you send it fedex like I told you?"

"ummm, no"

"Remind me why I keep you around here"

"Ummmm, you're my dad"

"Oh, right"

[C Kingsbury]

"Henry A. Spellman" > wrote in message
news:tySrd.181922$HA.23121@attbi_s01...
>
> Big snip
>
> My brother said, "Yes. I want to buy this automobile. How much is it?"
>
> The salesman replied, "It is really expensive, and the upkeep is quite
> high, too. But we have some really clean one owner used car out on the
> lot. I would be happy to show them to you."
>

Most of the fastest sales I've ever closed are the ones where the first
question the prospect asks is, "how much?"

[Matt Barrow]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 04:40:25 GMT, "T.Roger" >
> wrote:
>
> >Early on, I offered the east-coast Tiger rep to pay for fuel. It didn't
> >persuade him.
> >
>
> IF a customer is serious about purchasing and wants a demo ride they
> offer to pay for and hour of two of aircraft time, not gas!
> Prices have gone up. You are probably looking at more like $150 to
> $200 instead of $100, but it depends on what mood they are in and just
> how serious (and capable) you present yourself.
>
> Offering to pay for the fuel does sound like a tire kicker to them.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

On the other hand, paying someone to have them demonstrate their equipment
is not something a customer should have to do.

I build and sell houses that go for $200K and up. Imagine if I used that
tactic.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> I've been working on starting my own company for quite some time now, and
> about a month ago I sold my "nice" car and traded down to a very modest
> little 2-door ford coupe to get rid of my monthly payments and extract
some
> equity as the car was worth more than I owed on it. When I bought the car
it
> had been my sign of arrival, that I finally was doing well enough to not
> worry about every little bit. As I watched it drive away, I said, "well,
in
> a year or so when the business starts to hum I'll get that Audi
convertible
> I really want."

Sounds like the way I started. I got laid off from one of the big home
builders, and decided to go off on my own. My wife and I unloaded a bunch of
assets to cut expenses and have enough leverage to get capital to build four
houses. When they sold, we were sitting on some nice cash profits, but used
it and built ten more. Then again, did fourteen more. We did 30 in the first
two years.

After four years, I was doing 35-40 a year, bought a B36TC for cash, a Q45
for my wife (who had one before we unloaded it to start the company). We
did 57 homes in 2004, our sixth year.

>
> Funny thing is, now that I've been driving my 1998 Escort around for a
> month, I'm saying, "geez, this ain't so bad. Maybe I'll get the Chrysler
> instead of the Audi and save the money for the plane/boat/condo."

Or the second home some where for summer/winter getaways. :~)

>
> It's sometimes funny how skimping regularly on the little things can in
time
> add up to enough to pay for the big ones. Living in a high-cost city does
> not make this easy...

That's why I live in the booming metropolis of Montrose (pop. 13,800).

Okay...that and the fact the area is stunning in it's beauty.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> > "T.Roger" > wrote in message
> > m...
> >
> >>Any FEMALE Beech brokers out there that you know of?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Yeah, AAMOF! http://www.kansasaircraft.com
>
> OK, any good looking female brokers... :-)

http://jerrychristian.com :>)


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[G.R. Patterson III]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> I build and sell houses that go for $200K and up. Imagine if I used that
> tactic.

You allow people to live in one of your houses for a while before they decide to
buy it? That would be a demonstration of a house in exactly the same sense that
flying an aircraft is a demonstration of the plane.

I expect that what you do is allow prospective buyers to go to the house and
tour it before purchase. I would be *very* surprised to find that an aircraft
manufacturer won't allow someone to go to one of their dealers or the factory
and look at one of their planes.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Henry A. Spellman" wrote:
>
> My brother said, "Yes. I want to buy this automobile. How much is it?"
>
> The salesman replied, "It is really expensive, and the upkeep is quite
> high, too. But we have some really clean one owner used car out on the
> lot. I would be happy to show them to you."
>
> My brother said, "No. I want to buy this car. How much is it?"
>
> The salesman again went through the nice clean used car bit.

Back about 1979, Dodge came out with a pint-sized pickup truck. I used to pass
one of the dealerships on my way home every day, so one day I stopped in. There
was no price sticker in the window -- I found out later that these were not
required on trucks at the time.

So I found a salesman who was heading across the lot and asked him how much it
was.

He said "That all depends on what you trade in."

I said "I'm not going to trade anything in. How much is it?"

He said "That depends on what you trade in."

After another iteration of that, I gave up. It was nearly 25 years before I set
foot in a Dodge dealership again. The next time I did, I was treated to a
lecture on why I would never find a truck for sale with a standard transmission.

I don't see any reason to set foot in another Dodge dealership again.

Ya know, I never saw one of those little pickups on the road. I wonder why?

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Matt Whiting]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>>I build and sell houses that go for $200K and up. Imagine if I used that
>>tactic.
>
>
> You allow people to live in one of your houses for a while before they decide to
> buy it? That would be a demonstration of a house in exactly the same sense that
> flying an aircraft is a demonstration of the plane.
>
> I expect that what you do is allow prospective buyers to go to the house and
> tour it before purchase. I would be *very* surprised to find that an aircraft
> manufacturer won't allow someone to go to one of their dealers or the factory
> and look at one of their planes.

Well, not quite. The essential function of a home is mostly static.
The essential function of an airplane or car is mostly dynamic. You can
evaluate a house pretty well by walking through it and looking it over.
You can't do the same with an airplane or a car.


Matt

[Dick]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
...
>I am a licensed real estate agent. You would be amazed at some of the
>people
> walking in planning to buy a $200,000 home but have bad credit, no income,
> $25,000 in credit card debt, etc.
>
> I learned pretty quickly not to bother with someone who isn't
> pre-qualified.


I have bought many houses and was never "pre-qualified." As someone else
said, it means jack-sh*t. You would be amazed at all the "realtors" out
there who have no idea what they are doing. I have had to fill out more
offers due to ignorance and timidness than I should have to because the
realtors had no idea what they were doing.

>
> There is a saying in the business "Buyers are Liars".
>
> I'm sure Piper, Cirrus and Tiger think you're another wanabe who wants a
> free ride in one of their planes. They need some way to weed out the
> rif-raf, and unfortunately, you're looking alot like rif-raf.
>
>
>
>
> "Dan Engleman" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "T.Roger" > wrote in message
>> . com...
>> >I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
>> >buy
>> > my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the
>> > tax
>> > write-off about to expire at year end.///
>> >
>> > I've been at this since August.
>> > But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey T. Roger,
>>
>> I feel your pain (well kinda). I mess with a little real estate and run
> into
>> the same thing. In order to look at a property
>> you must be "pre-qualified" with many brokers. Well.......I may pay cash.
> So
>> I am not going to go through the process of filling out a credit
>> application, etc.
>>
>> There is a trade off on this though. Real estate agents and aircraft
> dealers
>> don't have time to mess with all the "flakes" who would like to buy
>> something, but don't have the resourses.
>> You made the statement about "trying" to get financing for a 200k
>> purchase.....they probably picked up on that. Most people who want to
>> make
> a
>> 200k purchase don't have any doubt about getting the money, as I don't
> have
>> any doubt about getting the money for real estate purchases.
>>
>> Perhaps if you were a little more circumspect with them?????
>>
>> Of course if you are 22 years old you will have to prove that you are a
> rock
>> star, professional athlete, etc. :-)
>>
>> Good luck,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>
>
>

[Steve Foley]

OK, Please don't hire me as your agent.


"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> Steve Foley wrote:


> Remind me not to hire you as an agent. I can't tell you if I've ever
bought
> or sold a house to a party that was "pre-qualified" which by the way,
pretty
> much means squat anyhow.

[pickle]

Steve Foley wrote:
> I am a licensed real estate agent. You would be amazed at some of the people
> walking in planning to buy a $200,000 home but have bad credit, no income,
> $25,000 in credit card debt, etc.
>
> I learned pretty quickly not to bother with someone who isn't pre-qualified.
>
> There is a saying in the business "Buyers are Liars".
>

You're kidding, right?
There is no bigger liar in the world than someone trying
to sell something.
It's proven every day.

[pickle]

Steve Foley wrote:
> I simply tried to point out why the OP may not be getting the treatment he
> expects.
>
> It's really too bad my existance offends you so much,

Yeah, it really does.

[Matt Barrow]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Matt Barrow wrote:
> >
> > I build and sell houses that go for $200K and up. Imagine if I used that
> > tactic.
>
> You allow people to live in one of your houses for a while before they
decide to
> buy it? That would be a demonstration of a house in exactly the same sense
that
> flying an aircraft is a demonstration of the plane.

Bad analogy.
>
> I expect that what you do is allow prospective buyers to go to the house
and
> tour it before purchase. I would be *very* surprised to find that an
aircraft
> manufacturer won't allow someone to go to one of their dealers or the
factory
> and look at one of their planes.

We build a few models and let them walk through them.

A prospective home can be inspected and everything needed can be discerned.
OTOH, a machine such as a car or aircraft can only be compared by TRYING it
out. Someone made the apt analogy of the Mercedes-Benz that when actually
driven, was a significant disappointment.

While the homes are models and not on the market, they cost a lot of money
(taxes, capital, utilities) to maintain...probably more than an hour or two
or ten of operating an aircraft. Those costs, though, are a cost of doing
business, just like an auto dealer has demonstrators on their lot...and they
cost a lot of money in maintenance, depreciation, but think of the car
dealer that tried to sell you a car based only on the sales brochure. An
aircraft dealer does NOT need to let you go on a three hour cross-country.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> Back about 1979, Dodge came out with a pint-sized pickup truck. I used to
pass
> one of the dealerships on my way home every day, so one day I stopped in.
There
> was no price sticker in the window -- I found out later that these were
not
> required on trucks at the time.
>
> So I found a salesman who was heading across the lot and asked him how
much it
> was.
>
> He said "That all depends on what you trade in."
>
> I said "I'm not going to trade anything in. How much is it?"
>
> He said "That depends on what you trade in."
>
> After another iteration of that, I gave up. It was nearly 25 years before
I set
> foot in a Dodge dealership again. The next time I did, I was treated to a
> lecture on why I would never find a truck for sale with a standard
transmission.
>
> I don't see any reason to set foot in another Dodge dealership again.
>

You need THAT EXPERIENCE to avoid Dodge dealerships?

Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Dick" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Steve Foley" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I am a licensed real estate agent. You would be amazed at some of the
> >people
> > walking in planning to buy a $200,000 home but have bad credit, no
income,
> > $25,000 in credit card debt, etc.
> >
> > I learned pretty quickly not to bother with someone who isn't
> > pre-qualified.
>
>
> I have bought many houses and was never "pre-qualified." As someone else
> said, it means jack-sh*t. You would be amazed at all the "realtors" out
> there who have no idea what they are doing. I have had to fill out more
> offers due to ignorance and timidness than I should have to because the
> realtors had no idea what they were doing.

In my business, realtors are the worst nightmare I have to deal with. Bozos
that couldn't hold any other job, representing people who wishes they know
nothing about...

Oh, well, you get the idea.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
...
> OK, Please don't hire me as your agent.

Not to worry. I have no intention of wrecking my business.


>
>
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Steve Foley wrote:
>
>
> > Remind me not to hire you as an agent. I can't tell you if I've ever
> bought
> > or sold a house to a party that was "pre-qualified" which by the way,
> pretty
> > much means squat anyhow.
>
>

[Thomas Borchert]

T.Roger,

Diamond?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

T.Roger,

> Ah, but the glass, the interior and the parachute!!!
>

And he's wrong, too.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Tony,

> The 4000 hours had to have lost them sales
>

Well, they're the best selling piston single engine aircraft line. So
just what do you base that statement on?
b
--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Dude]

It has been extended, but you have to have a deposit and contract before the
end of this year, and place the plane in service before the end of 2005. If
you meet the criteria, you can get the same 50% they got this year.


"John T" > wrote in message
...
>I do believe the tax writeoff thing has been extended. Haven't been paying
>attention to it, but thats what I recall.
>
> John
>

[C Kingsbury]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> Back about 1979, Dodge came out with a pint-sized pickup truck. I used to
pass
> one of the dealerships on my way home every day, so one day I stopped in.
There
> was no price sticker in the window -- I found out later that these were
not
> required on trucks at the time.
>

The older guys still call them a "Monroney," after the congressman who
sponsored the bill requiring them. Now that grandmothers who know nothing
about cars can look up invoice prices on the internet they mean even less
than they did 20 years ago.

>
> He said "That all depends on what you trade in."
>

This is still largely how the game works. About a year ago I was toying with
the idea of buying one of those new Saab convertibles. I went to one dealer,
went for the test drive, etc. Then we sat down to talk price. I told him I
wanted two prices, one to buy the car straight and another to buy it with my
Jeep as a trade-in. He wouldn't do it. I ended up dickering with him for an
hour before he finally settled on one price with my Jeep as a trade-in. In
the end though the final price he offered was excellent. You don't sell a
lot of expensive convertibles in February in New England when there's a s--t
job market and a foot of snow on the ground.

-cwk.

[Darkwing Duck]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steve Foley" > wrote in message
> ...
>> OK, Please don't hire me as your agent.
>
> Not to worry. I have no intention of wrecking my business.
>
>

Yikes.



>>
>>
>> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Steve Foley wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Remind me not to hire you as an agent. I can't tell you if I've ever
>> bought
>> > or sold a house to a party that was "pre-qualified" which by the way,
>> pretty
>> > much means squat anyhow.
>>
>>
>
>

[Steve Foley]

I simply tried to point out why the OP may not be getting the treatment he
expects.

It's really too bad my existance offends you so much, but that's really
your problem, not mine.

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...

> In my business, realtors are the worst nightmare I have to deal with.
Bozos
> that couldn't hold any other job, representing people who wishes they know
> nothing about...
>
> Oh, well, you get the idea.
>
>
> --
> Matt
> ---------------------
> Matthew W. Barrow
> Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
> Montrose, CO
>
>

[Steve Foley]

OK, So what you're saying is that you can't tell by looking at someone if
they have money, but you are offended that I ask they talk to a banker
before I start chauffeuring them around looking at houses?

How do you tell if someone is pulling your leg when they want to buy one of
your homes? You just trust that they will show up at closing with a pile of
money?


"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > You can usually tell one way or the other if someone has money. I once
> > worked in a fancy retail store and saw this guy walk in wearing ripped
> jeans
> > and a dirty T-shirt. No one else paid any attention to the guy because
he
> > looked like a bum. As I walked past him I glanced at his wrist and saw a
> > Swiss watch probably worth more than the BMW that the guy in a suit next
> to
> > him drove. Needless to say the "bum" nobody wanted to deal with left
with
> > $1000 of cigars. Shoes are another big giveaway. The average observer
sees
> > three guys in suits. The skilled one sees one guy wearing Bally loafers
> and
> > two guys in department-store shoes.
>
> A former boss of mine drove a five year old Buick, wore Sears clothes, a
> Seiko $150 watch (a gift from his daughter) and when writing during a
> meeting once I tesed him because he used a "Brakes Plus" BIC pen. His wife
> had a simple, inexpensive wedding ring. He often wore jeans and cowboy
> boots.
>
> He was worth some $15million. And, no, he wasn't miserly at all.
>
> >
> > In real big-ticket items like cars or real estate, it's not unusual that
> you
> > really don't even see the smart and or wealthy buyer face-to-face until
> the
> > deal is closed. If they're buying a car they do it by faxing or calling
> the
> > sales manager directly, and if they're buying property, they often do so
> > through a buyer's agent. The biggest money is often the quietest.
>
> Usually.
>
>
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

C Kingsbury wrote:
>
> This is still largely how the game works. About a year ago I was toying with
> the idea of buying one of those new Saab convertibles. I went to one dealer,
> went for the test drive, etc. Then we sat down to talk price. I told him I
> wanted two prices, one to buy the car straight and another to buy it with my
> Jeep as a trade-in. He wouldn't do it.

Well, if a dealer will not give me a price for a straight purchase, he won't
sell me a vehicle. So far, I've bought only two new vehicles, and I have never
traded another one in.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, if a dealer will not give me a price for a straight purchase, he
> won't
> sell me a vehicle. So far, I've bought only two new vehicles, and I have
> never
> traded another one in.

This past June Mary and I decided we needed a "knock around" car, mostly
because she was sick of driving "The Mighty Grape" around town. (It's our
ugly purple pickup truck that hauls 55 gallons of gas to the plane, and
only seats two people...I love it!)

Over the course of a few days this idea slowly transformed from "Let's buy a
beater" to "Let's buy a sports car!" (Don't ask me how -- it just did.)

So, Mary, the kids and I were up in Cedar Rapids on our days off, when we
decided to drive around and look at car lots. Driving aimlessly, we
stumbled across a pristine red-orange Mustang Cobra convertible sitting on
the lot of a used car dealership that specializes in selling only cherry
sports cars.

I didn't look twice at it, because the Mustangs we had already test driven
didn't have enough rear seat headroom for the kids. Mary, however,
instantly fell in love with the looks of the thing, so I stopped to take a
look...

It was ten minutes before closing when we walked in looking like something
straight out of the Beverly Hillbillies. I hadn't shaved in two days, and
was wearing a baseball cap and torn up jeans. Mary didn't look much better,
and the kids were cranky and hungry. The salesman took one look at me,
looked at his watch, and reluctantly agreed to let us take the car for a
test drive. He kept exchanging knowing glances with his office manager, and
you could just tell that they were really, REALLY ****ed about being late
for supper.

Well, we test drove the car, and instantly fell for it. Being a
convertible, the back seat headroom (with the top up, natch) was
dramatically better than in the hard-top -- so the kids actually fit back
there comfortably -- and the thing handled like a danged Formula 1 race car.
Besides that, it felt great to have the wind blowing in my (rapidly
diminishing) hair!

We drove back to the lot, and painfully extricated ourselves from the little
car. The salesman didn't even meet us at the car, instead waiting inside
for us to come in, completely convinced that we would be shortly on our way.
Imagine his look of utter incredulity when I asked him "How much?" This
look of surprise was only topped by the look of disbelief when I told him
that, no, we didn't want to trade anything in -- and that we were ready to
pay cash on the barrel-head for the car!

After a few minutes of dickering we wrote him a check, he gave us the keys,
and we had our car.

That guy is probably STILL shaking his head...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Barrow]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well, if a dealer will not give me a price for a straight purchase, he
won't
> sell me a vehicle.

I take that a bit further and tell them I'll let them "go talk to my sales
manager" only ONCE after which I'll walk out the front door.

Usually it works, but some can't believe I'm serious. Some have even tried
(as we walked out) becoming physical...for a moment.

My Mom, a true Scotswoman (rest her soul) taught me that trick.


Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
...
> I simply tried to point out why the OP may not be getting the treatment he
> expects.
>
> It's really too bad my existance offends you so much, but that's really
> your problem, not mine.

It's not your existance, it your attitude. Also, the attitude of so many of
your peers...particualrly the ones that **** and moan when things are bad,
but who bump their noses on overhead rafters during good times.

I wouldn't want your as my agent (think of the law of agency) because I'd
expect you to move my products, not bloat your ego.

Oh, and my "go after the customer" approach has resulted in some very nice
income. If someone comes in spending their money I expect to give they ROYAL
treatment; you, evidently, expect to be a royal PITA.

Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Matt Barrow]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
...
> OK, So what you're saying is that you can't tell by looking at someone if
> they have money, but you are offended that I ask they talk to a banker
> before I start chauffeuring them around looking at houses?

Have you tried getting some basic information from them first (by yourself)?
Or are you disinterested in earning your commissions?

> How do you tell if someone is pulling your leg when they want to buy one
of
> your homes? You just trust that they will show up at closing with a pile
of
> money?

We ask them a few questions...usually only four or five. We've been 95%
successful.

One who nearly sllipped away waa a young married couple (early 20's) in
which the husband was new at his job and had little credit history, and only
$3000 to put down, so they were going to be difficult to qualify for a
mortgage. And it was. But we worked at it, they got a non-rpime rate, but
they got their house.

Somehow it seems so many businesses are their own worst enemy, or their
"agents".

Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[G.R. Patterson III]

Steve Foley wrote:
>
> I learned pretty quickly not to bother with someone who isn't pre-qualified.

Your choice -- you would have missed out on commissions on both the houses I've
bought.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Andrew Gideon]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> A prospective home can be inspected and everything needed can be
> discerned.

This isn't really true. There are plenty of things about a house that
cannot be discerned just from an inspection.

In my own case, one of the factors we loved about our house when we bought
it was the group of skylights over the master bedroom. And we love them
still. But given the choice of this beauty vs. the noise when it rains,
well...we'd likely still make the same choice...maybe...some days.

But the same is really true of an airplane too. A test flight isn't going
to tell you how you feel after a couple of three-hour legs. And I'd never
have guessed that planes leak...until I noticed my charts getting wet one
rainy day. Do many demo flights happen in rain?

Hmm. I think I have rain on the brain <laugh>.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Tony,
>
>> The 4000 hours had to have lost them sales
>>
>
> Well, they're the best selling piston single engine aircraft line. So
> just what do you base that statement on?

That I don't have one yet?

- Andrew

[tony roberts]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> Tony,
>
> > The 4000 hours had to have lost them sales
> >
>
> Well, they're the best selling piston single engine aircraft line. So
> just what do you base that statement on?
> b

A couple of things actually.

First, the pure logic which dictates that many pilots would not lay out
$500,000 on an aircraft with a specified airframe life of 4000 hours.

Second, of the three friends of mine who own SR20's, they were all put
off by the specified airframe life of the SR22.

Third, a conversation with the Cirrus sales team at Arlington.
I asked them if they had any further progress in extending the airframe
life of the SR22. They told me that they were still waiting, but when it
was approved they expected sales on the SR22 to improve dramatically.

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Well, if a dealer will not give me a price for a straight purchase, he
>>won't
>>sell me a vehicle. So far, I've bought only two new vehicles, and I have
>>never
>>traded another one in.
>
>
> This past June Mary and I decided we needed a "knock around" car, mostly
> because she was sick of driving "The Mighty Grape" around town. (It's our
> ugly purple pickup truck that hauls 55 gallons of gas to the plane, and
> only seats two people...I love it!)
>
> Over the course of a few days this idea slowly transformed from "Let's buy a
> beater" to "Let's buy a sports car!" (Don't ask me how -- it just did.)
>
> So, Mary, the kids and I were up in Cedar Rapids on our days off, when we
> decided to drive around and look at car lots. Driving aimlessly, we
> stumbled across a pristine red-orange Mustang Cobra convertible sitting on
> the lot of a used car dealership that specializes in selling only cherry
> sports cars.
>
> I didn't look twice at it, because the Mustangs we had already test driven
> didn't have enough rear seat headroom for the kids. Mary, however,
> instantly fell in love with the looks of the thing, so I stopped to take a
> look...
>
> It was ten minutes before closing when we walked in looking like something
> straight out of the Beverly Hillbillies. I hadn't shaved in two days, and
> was wearing a baseball cap and torn up jeans. Mary didn't look much better,
> and the kids were cranky and hungry. The salesman took one look at me,
> looked at his watch, and reluctantly agreed to let us take the car for a
> test drive. He kept exchanging knowing glances with his office manager, and
> you could just tell that they were really, REALLY ****ed about being late
> for supper.
>
> Well, we test drove the car, and instantly fell for it. Being a
> convertible, the back seat headroom (with the top up, natch) was
> dramatically better than in the hard-top -- so the kids actually fit back
> there comfortably -- and the thing handled like a danged Formula 1 race car.

Jay, I can safely say then that you have never driven a Formula 1 car. :-)

Mustangs don't even handle like BMWs, let alone Formula cars of any genre!

Matt

[Joe Herman]

It's funny - I'm 29 - own my own business...and tend to dress really casual.
I just don't like dressing up.

I understand that if I show up to a car dealership with ripped jeans and
sandals - they won't take me seriously.

I can either choose to "prequalify" myself to the seller (and make him
realize that I'm worth his time) - or I can get dressed up, and let the
illusion carry me through the door.

It's a fact of life...we all make choices - and those choices have
repercussions. Not to say that stereotyping people based on appearance is
right - but it happens, and we have to deal with it.


"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
>>
>> A former boss of mine drove a five year old Buick, wore Sears clothes, a
>> Seiko $150 watch (a gift from his daughter) and when writing during a
>> meeting once I tesed him because he used a "Brakes Plus" BIC pen. His
>> wife
>> had a simple, inexpensive wedding ring. He often wore jeans and cowboy
>> boots.
>>
>> He was worth some $15million. And, no, he wasn't miserly at all.
>>
>
> I've been working on starting my own company for quite some time now, and
> about a month ago I sold my "nice" car and traded down to a very modest
> little 2-door ford coupe to get rid of my monthly payments and extract
> some
> equity as the car was worth more than I owed on it. When I bought the car
> it
> had been my sign of arrival, that I finally was doing well enough to not
> worry about every little bit. As I watched it drive away, I said, "well,
> in
> a year or so when the business starts to hum I'll get that Audi
> convertible
> I really want."
>
> Funny thing is, now that I've been driving my 1998 Escort around for a
> month, I'm saying, "geez, this ain't so bad. Maybe I'll get the Chrysler
> instead of the Audi and save the money for the plane/boat/condo."
>
> It's sometimes funny how skimping regularly on the little things can in
> time
> add up to enough to pay for the big ones. Living in a high-cost city does
> not make this easy...
>
> -cwk.
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> I take that a bit further and tell them I'll let them "go talk to my sales
> manager" only ONCE after which I'll walk out the front door.
>
Actually I let them go as many times as they want...but I usually have an
idea of what a fair price is for the both of us and won't deal with their
counter offers. Usually after the second trip they agree to my price.

And I never trade anything in anyhow. I have the propensity to drive the
cars into the ground so they aren't worth bothering with (one day I pointed
to by beater 20 year old car when they asked about trades, they would have
been better off if they didn't have to have it towed off their lot).

[Matt Whiting]

Joe Herman wrote:

> It's funny - I'm 29 - own my own business...and tend to dress really casual.
> I just don't like dressing up.
>
> I understand that if I show up to a car dealership with ripped jeans and
> sandals - they won't take me seriously.
>
> I can either choose to "prequalify" myself to the seller (and make him
> realize that I'm worth his time) - or I can get dressed up, and let the
> illusion carry me through the door.

Interesting. I've never had problems at a car dealer and I've never
dressed up to enter one in 25+ years. You all must deal with some
really incompetent car dealerships.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>> I take that a bit further and tell them I'll let them "go talk to my
>> sales
>> manager" only ONCE after which I'll walk out the front door.
>>
> Actually I let them go as many times as they want...but I usually have an
> idea of what a fair price is for the both of us and won't deal with their
> counter offers. Usually after the second trip they agree to my price.

Yes, same here. I figure time is on my side, not theirs. The more time
we all take, the better it comes out for me. I once spent 5 WEEKS
negotiating for a car. I got it for my price in the end and even got a
call from the owner of the dealership to finalize the deal.


> And I never trade anything in anyhow. I have the propensity to drive the
> cars into the ground so they aren't worth bothering with (one day I pointed
> to by beater 20 year old car when they asked about trades, they would have
> been better off if they didn't have to have it towed off their lot).

Yes, another good strategy if saving money is your goal.


Matt

[Thomas Borchert]

Andrew,

> > Well, they're the best selling piston single engine aircraft line. So
> > just what do you base that statement on?
>
> That I don't have one yet?
>

You done broke the code, Lt.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

I don't think the words "sports car" and "Mustang" belong in the same
sentence or context. The latter isn't the former. Never was, never will
be.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...

> And I never trade anything in anyhow. I have the propensity to drive the
> cars into the ground so they aren't worth bothering with (one day I
pointed
> to by beater 20 year old car when they asked about trades, they would have
> been better off if they didn't have to have it towed off their lot).

One of my next-door neighbors was buying a new car and made a deal to trade
in a real bomber for a $500 credit. They had everything signed but the
dealer needed a day to condition the car, so he told my neighbor to keep his
car and drive back the next day. On the way in, the thing died. He called
from his cell phone and told the dealer to send their tow truck out. The
salesman who made the deal apparently took quite a ribbing as the tow truck
pulled his trade-in onto the lot.

-cwk.

[Ron Natalie]

Colin W Kingsbury wrote:

>
> One of my next-door neighbors was buying a new car and made a deal to trade
> in a real bomber for a $500 credit. They had everything signed but the
> dealer needed a day to condition the car, so he told my neighbor to keep his
> car and drive back the next day. On the way in, the thing died. He called
> from his cell phone and told the dealer to send their tow truck out. The
> salesman who made the deal apparently took quite a ribbing as the tow truck
> pulled his trade-in onto the lot.

I actually towed my 1967 Ford LTD into the lot when I picked up my 1980
Datsun 200SX. I had initially shopped for the car with my roommate giving
me a lift since the LTD was already running intermittently. I told them
of it's condition but they were keen to make the deal. If they were smart
the salesman would have paid the tow truck driver to haul it to the dump rather
than accepting it...I don't know...I was long gone in my new car before the
tow truck got the trade in off the hook.

[Jay Honeck]

> Mustangs don't even handle like BMWs, let alone Formula cars of any genre!

Is it safe to say that you haven't driven a Mustang with the Cobra
suspension?

It's quite different from a stock Mustang.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Masino]

In rec.aviation.owning Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> Mustangs don't even handle like BMWs, let alone Formula cars of any genre!
> Is it safe to say that you haven't driven a Mustang with the Cobra
> suspension?
> It's quite different from a stock Mustang.

According to a google search of previous rec.aviation postings, you're
Mustang has the 2.8L six. It's not exactly a Cobra, even with suspension
upgrades. Plus, the BMW probably does handle better than a Cobra (Mustang
Cobra, not AC Cobra, of course).



--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Trent Moorehead]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...

> Yes, same here. I figure time is on my side, not theirs. The more time
> we all take, the better it comes out for me. I once spent 5 WEEKS
> negotiating for a car. I got it for my price in the end and even got a
> call from the owner of the dealership to finalize the deal.

We just bought a new 2004 Sienna this year. We drive cars 10 plus years, so
buying new makes sense.

I did the www.fightingchance.com thing where you have all the invoice info
and you contact dealers within a couple of hours driving distance, about 3
days before the end of the month. I spent a good part of a day on the phone
as dealers called in trying to beat each other. Keep in mind that this was a
very hot car and there were almost none on dealers lots. About half of the
dealers never called me back, but that left me 12 dealers to deal with.

It soon came apparent that only a couple of dealers actually had a van on
the lot. And the funny thing was that multiple dealers were trying to sell
the same van. I learned a lot from the experience. Dealers regularly trade
cars with each other and create a sort of "virtual" car lot.

By the end of the day, I paid invoice price for the new van. The dealer used
the holdback and doc fee to cover his costs and make some money. The next
day after I got off of work, they even sent a driver to pick me up and drive
me 1.5 hours to the dealership to finish the deal. They did this because
they HAD to get me in there before the close of business since it was the
last day of the month and the wife was out of town. I walked in, handed them
a check, signed a couple of things and drove it home.

Yet another way to buy a car. It worked as advertised.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[C J Campbell]

"T.Roger" > wrote in message
. com...
> I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
buy
> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
> write-off about to expire at year end.
>
> I've been at this since August.
> But, hell, they're not making it easy.

No, they are not, and not just because of your problem, either. Most of
these companies that promised airplanes for delivery late this year are
putting off their customers until next year due to production and/or
certification issues -- which creates a huge tax problem for many. In fact,
there is already talk of class action lawsuits, even while the aircraft
manufacturers are lobbying to get the government to extend the tax benefits
to aircraft ordered, but not delivered this year. It is a huge mess and it
affects all the manufacturers.

So even if you were able to get someone to let you demo the plane, my guess
is you would find it impossible to take delivery this year. Even if the
dealer had a plane on the lot (I think Galvin has a nice DA-40 available),
you would probably have trouble getting financing arranged before the end of
the year.

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Mustangs don't even handle like BMWs, let alone Formula cars of any genre!
>
>
> Is it safe to say that you haven't driven a Mustang with the Cobra
> suspension?

Yes.

> It's quite different from a stock Mustang.

Doesn't matter. It ain't no BMW, let alone a Formula 1 contender. :-)


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Trent Moorehead wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>Yes, same here. I figure time is on my side, not theirs. The more time
>>we all take, the better it comes out for me. I once spent 5 WEEKS
>>negotiating for a car. I got it for my price in the end and even got a
>>call from the owner of the dealership to finalize the deal.
>
>
> We just bought a new 2004 Sienna this year. We drive cars 10 plus years, so
> buying new makes sense.

It doesn't make financial sense. It makes sense if you value new cars
more than you value your money. :-)


> I did the www.fightingchance.com thing where you have all the invoice info
> and you contact dealers within a couple of hours driving distance, about 3
> days before the end of the month. I spent a good part of a day on the phone
> as dealers called in trying to beat each other. Keep in mind that this was a
> very hot car and there were almost none on dealers lots. About half of the
> dealers never called me back, but that left me 12 dealers to deal with.

Never tried that, but I'll have to check it out.


> It soon came apparent that only a couple of dealers actually had a van on
> the lot. And the funny thing was that multiple dealers were trying to sell
> the same van. I learned a lot from the experience. Dealers regularly trade
> cars with each other and create a sort of "virtual" car lot.

Yes, they play all sorts of games.


> By the end of the day, I paid invoice price for the new van. The dealer used
> the holdback and doc fee to cover his costs and make some money. The next
> day after I got off of work, they even sent a driver to pick me up and drive
> me 1.5 hours to the dealership to finish the deal. They did this because
> they HAD to get me in there before the close of business since it was the
> last day of the month and the wife was out of town. I walked in, handed them
> a check, signed a couple of things and drove it home.

That's not bad for a Toyota, but the Toyota invoice is still pretty steep.


Matt

[Dude]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "T.Roger" > wrote in message
> . com...
>> I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want to
> buy
>> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the tax
>> write-off about to expire at year end.
>>
>> I've been at this since August.
>> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>
> No, they are not, and not just because of your problem, either. Most of
> these companies that promised airplanes for delivery late this year are
> putting off their customers until next year due to production and/or
> certification issues -- which creates a huge tax problem for many. In
> fact,
> there is already talk of class action lawsuits, even while the aircraft
> manufacturers are lobbying to get the government to extend the tax
> benefits
> to aircraft ordered, but not delivered this year. It is a huge mess and it
> affects all the manufacturers.
>
> So even if you were able to get someone to let you demo the plane, my
> guess
> is you would find it impossible to take delivery this year. Even if the
> dealer had a plane on the lot (I think Galvin has a nice DA-40 available),
> you would probably have trouble getting financing arranged before the end
> of
> the year.
>

To get bonus depreciation, all you have to do is order this year, and take
delivery next year. The depreciation will be in the year its put in
service.

You can get approved for financing in under 24 hours.

The challenge will be creating an LLC if you need one. I hear the aviation
specialist attourneys are all working overtime.

Strangely, our original poster has disappeared, so either he gave up, or got
what he wanted.

[Morgans]

"Dude" > wrote

> You can get approved for financing in under 24 hours.
>
> The challenge will be creating an LLC if you need one. I hear the
aviation
> specialist attourneys are all working overtime.
>
> Strangely, our original poster has disappeared, so either he gave up, or
got
> what he wanted.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Or.....
We've been..........
Trolled!!! GASP!

<VBG>
--
Jim in NC

[Trent Moorehead]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > We just bought a new 2004 Sienna this year. We drive cars 10 plus years,
so
> > buying new makes sense.
>
> It doesn't make financial sense. It makes sense if you value new cars
> more than you value your money. :-)

Well, I should have said that buying new made sense for us in THIS
situation. It doesn't always make sense and certainly buying used is more
often a smarter course of action financially speaking. We plan for this
vehicle to be our family truckster for the next 10 plus years, so it seemed
worth it this time around.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[T.Roger]

Still here and reading...and waiting for a demo.



"Dude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "T.Roger" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> >> I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want
to
> > buy
> >> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the
tax
> >> write-off about to expire at year end.
> >>
> >> I've been at this since August.
> >> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
> >
> > No, they are not, and not just because of your problem, either. Most of
> > these companies that promised airplanes for delivery late this year are
> > putting off their customers until next year due to production and/or
> > certification issues -- which creates a huge tax problem for many. In
> > fact,
> > there is already talk of class action lawsuits, even while the aircraft
> > manufacturers are lobbying to get the government to extend the tax
> > benefits
> > to aircraft ordered, but not delivered this year. It is a huge mess and
it
> > affects all the manufacturers.
> >
> > So even if you were able to get someone to let you demo the plane, my
> > guess
> > is you would find it impossible to take delivery this year. Even if the
> > dealer had a plane on the lot (I think Galvin has a nice DA-40
available),
> > you would probably have trouble getting financing arranged before the
end
> > of
> > the year.
> >
>
> To get bonus depreciation, all you have to do is order this year, and take
> delivery next year. The depreciation will be in the year its put in
> service.
>
> You can get approved for financing in under 24 hours.
>
> The challenge will be creating an LLC if you need one. I hear the
aviation
> specialist attourneys are all working overtime.
>
> Strangely, our original poster has disappeared, so either he gave up, or
got
> what he wanted.
>
>
>
>
>
>

[zatatime]

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 16:46:05 GMT, "T.Roger" >
wrote:

>Still here and reading...and waiting for a demo.


May I ask what your price range for a bird is?

z

[Dude]

Did you miss my post? I am sure I can get you a demo with a couple
manufacturers. Tell me what city you are in, and I will try.


"T.Roger" > wrote in message
om...
> Still here and reading...and waiting for a demo.
>
>
>
> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "T.Roger" > wrote in message
>> > . com...
>> >> I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I want
> to
>> > buy
>> >> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the
> tax
>> >> write-off about to expire at year end.
>> >>
>> >> I've been at this since August.
>> >> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
>> >
>> > No, they are not, and not just because of your problem, either. Most of
>> > these companies that promised airplanes for delivery late this year are
>> > putting off their customers until next year due to production and/or
>> > certification issues -- which creates a huge tax problem for many. In
>> > fact,
>> > there is already talk of class action lawsuits, even while the aircraft
>> > manufacturers are lobbying to get the government to extend the tax
>> > benefits
>> > to aircraft ordered, but not delivered this year. It is a huge mess and
> it
>> > affects all the manufacturers.
>> >
>> > So even if you were able to get someone to let you demo the plane, my
>> > guess
>> > is you would find it impossible to take delivery this year. Even if the
>> > dealer had a plane on the lot (I think Galvin has a nice DA-40
> available),
>> > you would probably have trouble getting financing arranged before the
> end
>> > of
>> > the year.
>> >
>>
>> To get bonus depreciation, all you have to do is order this year, and
>> take
>> delivery next year. The depreciation will be in the year its put in
>> service.
>>
>> You can get approved for financing in under 24 hours.
>>
>> The challenge will be creating an LLC if you need one. I hear the
> aviation
>> specialist attourneys are all working overtime.
>>
>> Strangely, our original poster has disappeared, so either he gave up, or
> got
>> what he wanted.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[T.Roger]

I don't recall the post. I'm close to (CT) HVN, OXC, BDR, DXR and (NY) HPN.


"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> Did you miss my post? I am sure I can get you a demo with a couple
> manufacturers. Tell me what city you are in, and I will try.
>
>
> "T.Roger" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Still here and reading...and waiting for a demo.
> >
> >
> >
> > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> > "T.Roger" > wrote in message
> >> > . com...
> >> >> I don't have my ticket yet -- and I'm really committed because I
want
> > to
> >> > buy
> >> >> my own plane to train and fly -- and I want to take advantage of the
> > tax
> >> >> write-off about to expire at year end.
> >> >>
> >> >> I've been at this since August.
> >> >> But, hell, they're not making it easy.
> >> >
> >> > No, they are not, and not just because of your problem, either. Most
of
> >> > these companies that promised airplanes for delivery late this year
are
> >> > putting off their customers until next year due to production and/or
> >> > certification issues -- which creates a huge tax problem for many. In
> >> > fact,
> >> > there is already talk of class action lawsuits, even while the
aircraft
> >> > manufacturers are lobbying to get the government to extend the tax
> >> > benefits
> >> > to aircraft ordered, but not delivered this year. It is a huge mess
and
> > it
> >> > affects all the manufacturers.
> >> >
> >> > So even if you were able to get someone to let you demo the plane, my
> >> > guess
> >> > is you would find it impossible to take delivery this year. Even if
the
> >> > dealer had a plane on the lot (I think Galvin has a nice DA-40
> > available),
> >> > you would probably have trouble getting financing arranged before the
> > end
> >> > of
> >> > the year.
> >> >
> >>
> >> To get bonus depreciation, all you have to do is order this year, and
> >> take
> >> delivery next year. The depreciation will be in the year its put in
> >> service.
> >>
> >> You can get approved for financing in under 24 hours.
> >>
> >> The challenge will be creating an LLC if you need one. I hear the
> > aviation
> >> specialist attourneys are all working overtime.
> >>
> >> Strangely, our original poster has disappeared, so either he gave up,
or
> > got
> >> what he wanted.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

[T.Roger]

+/- $250K


"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 16:46:05 GMT, "T.Roger" >
> wrote:
>
> >Still here and reading...and waiting for a demo.
>
>
> May I ask what your price range for a bird is?
>
> z

[Matt Barrow]

"T.Roger" > wrote in message
. com...
> +/- $250K
>
>

I don't think that will get you into a Cirrus 22. Not a new one anyway.

> >
> > May I ask what your price range for a bird is?

[Dude]

"T.Roger" > wrote in message
. com...
>I don't recall the post. I'm close to (CT) HVN, OXC, BDR, DXR and (NY)
>HPN.
>
>
> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Did you miss my post? I am sure I can get you a demo with a couple
>> manufacturers. Tell me what city you are in, and I will try.
>>
>>

That doesn't tell me what city you are actually in. Where you live
determines who covers you as a sales rep or distributor. No one wants to
bother with someone unless they can actually sell them a plane and make some
money.

Assuming you are in CT. Did you work with Bill Vaccaro from Cirrus? The
nice people in Duluth told me they would be happy to make sure you got a
Demo.

For Diamond, call 877-805-7071, and get Chris Moffett. Tell him you want to
get bonus depreciation on a new plane and are choosing between Cessna,
Cirrus and Diamond and you want to get a Demo on a Star.

I assume you have flown the Cessna. They now have the same cockpit as the
Diamond, so you can see that there.

If either of these guys balk, I can help you go over their heads, but I will
need your real name.

[T.Roger]

The local Cirrus rep blew me off twice. I haven't spoken with Bill Vaccaro.
I called Chris Moffett at Diamond. I'll let you know. Thanks for the lead.



"Dude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "T.Roger" > wrote in message
> . com...
>>I don't recall the post. I'm close to (CT) HVN, OXC, BDR, DXR and (NY)
>>HPN.
>>
>>
>> "Dude" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Did you miss my post? I am sure I can get you a demo with a couple
>>> manufacturers. Tell me what city you are in, and I will try.
>>>
>>>
>
> That doesn't tell me what city you are actually in. Where you live
> determines who covers you as a sales rep or distributor. No one wants to
> bother with someone unless they can actually sell them a plane and make
> some money.
>
> Assuming you are in CT. Did you work with Bill Vaccaro from Cirrus? The
> nice people in Duluth told me they would be happy to make sure you got a
> Demo.
>
> For Diamond, call 877-805-7071, and get Chris Moffett. Tell him you want
> to get bonus depreciation on a new plane and are choosing between Cessna,
> Cirrus and Diamond and you want to get a Demo on a Star.
>
> I assume you have flown the Cessna. They now have the same cockpit as the
> Diamond, so you can see that there.
>
> If either of these guys balk, I can help you go over their heads, but I
> will need your real name.
>

[Jay Honeck]

> According to a google search of previous rec.aviation postings, you're
> Mustang has the 2.8L six. It's not exactly a Cobra, even with suspension
> upgrades.

Only difference is in straight-line acceleration -- which is still pretty
zippy with 200 horsepower in a car that weighs practically nothing.

A local Mustang guru told me that the lighter 6 cylinder engine in our
"Cobra clone" makes it handle better than the original, simply due to better
weight distribution.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[nuke]

>Blew you off? Waitaminute. You call, tell them you might want to buy a
>Cirrus this year, and they blow you off? Something is weird here.
>
>--
>Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Ya think?


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

[Margy Natalie]

After our last car buying experience I think late, tired and cranky are the
things you need for a good deal. The guy gave a price, we gave a counter, he
came back with another counter, I said, "let's go and see if we can get our
price at another dealer tomorrow" and magically our price became ok. It was
only 10 minutes after closing when the bargaining began!

Margy

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > Well, if a dealer will not give me a price for a straight purchase, he
> > won't
> > sell me a vehicle. So far, I've bought only two new vehicles, and I have
> > never
> > traded another one in.
>
> This past June Mary and I decided we needed a "knock around" car, mostly
> because she was sick of driving "The Mighty Grape" around town. (It's our
> ugly purple pickup truck that hauls 55 gallons of gas to the plane, and
> only seats two people...I love it!)
>
> Over the course of a few days this idea slowly transformed from "Let's buy a
> beater" to "Let's buy a sports car!" (Don't ask me how -- it just did.)
>
> So, Mary, the kids and I were up in Cedar Rapids on our days off, when we
> decided to drive around and look at car lots. Driving aimlessly, we
> stumbled across a pristine red-orange Mustang Cobra convertible sitting on
> the lot of a used car dealership that specializes in selling only cherry
> sports cars.
>
> I didn't look twice at it, because the Mustangs we had already test driven
> didn't have enough rear seat headroom for the kids. Mary, however,
> instantly fell in love with the looks of the thing, so I stopped to take a
> look...
>
> It was ten minutes before closing when we walked in looking like something
> straight out of the Beverly Hillbillies. I hadn't shaved in two days, and
> was wearing a baseball cap and torn up jeans. Mary didn't look much better,
> and the kids were cranky and hungry. The salesman took one look at me,
> looked at his watch, and reluctantly agreed to let us take the car for a
> test drive. He kept exchanging knowing glances with his office manager, and
> you could just tell that they were really, REALLY ****ed about being late
> for supper.
>
> Well, we test drove the car, and instantly fell for it. Being a
> convertible, the back seat headroom (with the top up, natch) was
> dramatically better than in the hard-top -- so the kids actually fit back
> there comfortably -- and the thing handled like a danged Formula 1 race car.
> Besides that, it felt great to have the wind blowing in my (rapidly
> diminishing) hair!
>
> We drove back to the lot, and painfully extricated ourselves from the little
> car. The salesman didn't even meet us at the car, instead waiting inside
> for us to come in, completely convinced that we would be shortly on our way.
> Imagine his look of utter incredulity when I asked him "How much?" This
> look of surprise was only topped by the look of disbelief when I told him
> that, no, we didn't want to trade anything in -- and that we were ready to
> pay cash on the barrel-head for the car!
>
> After a few minutes of dickering we wrote him a check, he gave us the keys,
> and we had our car.
>
> That guy is probably STILL shaking his head...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Trent Moorehead]

"Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> After our last car buying experience I think late, tired and cranky are
the
> things you need for a good deal.

Even better is late, tired, cranky and the last day of the month. Especially
if the last day of the month is a weekday when the dealer knows that hardly
anyone shops for a car late on a weekday.

-Trent

[Bob Chilcoat]

The best deal I ever got on a new car was after I'd already "bought" the
same basic car used from Hertz. I stopped into the dealer to get an extra
key made, and realized that the price I'd paid was not too far off sticker
price for the same car with manual transmission, which is what I really
wanted anyway. I had three days to back out of the Hertz deal, and they had
"rented" it to me in the interim so that I could drive it away.

So I started negotiating with the dealer for a new car at the same price I'd
paid for the 12,000 mile Hertz car. It was near the end of the model year,
and late in the month. Eventually I moved up a few hundred $$'s, but
stopped after talking to series of increasingly skilled "closers". Finally
I just said, "Look, I've been here two hours now. I have a car out there in
the parking lot. I'm happy with it. In about five minutes I'm going to
drive away in it, and I'll be very happy. I have a nearly new car with an
automatic transmission. But you won't be happy, because you won't have sold
a car." The "closer" tried one more time to move me off my offer, and when
I refused to budge, he finally agreed and we bought the car. The next day I
returned the Hertz car and cancelled the sale. IIRC, I ended up paying $800
more than I'd almost paid for the used Hertz car. We finally got rid of it
(Toyota Corolla) when it hit 250,000 miles.

It has occurred to me that you could use this same ploy by just renting a
car like the one you want, and driving into the dealer's and giving them the
same story. Wouldn't cost you much, and it puts you in a very strong
negotiating position. Maybe I'll try it someday, but I usually don't buy
new cars. It's nice to have an edge when talking to these sharks.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
> > After our last car buying experience I think late, tired and cranky are
> the
> > things you need for a good deal.
>
> Even better is late, tired, cranky and the last day of the month.
Especially
> if the last day of the month is a weekday when the dealer knows that
hardly
> anyone shops for a car late on a weekday.
>
> -Trent
>
>

[Dude]

>
> It has occurred to me that you could use this same ploy by just renting a
> car like the one you want, and driving into the dealer's and giving them
> the
> same story. Wouldn't cost you much, and it puts you in a very strong
> negotiating position. Maybe I'll try it someday, but I usually don't buy
> new cars. It's nice to have an edge when talking to these sharks.
>

A friend of mine actually drove a new car from a dealers lot to his
competition on the test drive (they let him go alone). He asked them if
they could beat the deal he had negotiated already. They took about 10
minutes to say no, he drove back and bought it.

[nuke]

>Even better is late, tired, cranky and the last day of the month. Especially
>if the last day of the month is a weekday when the dealer knows that hardly
>anyone shops for a car late on a weekday.
>
>-Trent

I've been through that before.

Although the last car I bought, my Corvette, I bought from an internet dealer
that sponsors the Corvette forum. Got a great price, got the 0% on top of that,
everything down to the penney, no shenanigans of any kind. I bought it out of
state and brought it into California, they even handled all the correct tax
payments into my county. I had swing by the DMV so they could verify it was a
California legal car on the smog tag, but other than that, it was a smooth
deal.

It mystifies me that some industries, airlines, car dealerships and PC vendors
in particular, have come to make it a standard business practice to torture
their customers. It is just wrong to do business that way.


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.