530 Taws cost

[Dude]

Does anyone else think the cost of a 530 with TAWS, or the $8,000 to add it,
is anywhere near reasonable? Perhaps someone could tell us what incredible
amount of programming, testing, processor improvement, or whatever this
takes.

I am thinking that this simply reflects more of Garmin getting too proud of
their success and their market domination. While I like the G1000 better
than the present Avidyne and Chelton solutions, I am now hoping avidyne "one
ups" them in the next round.

Garmin has been making plenty of mistakes lately, and they should start
trying harder again.

[Mike Rapoport]

Why don't you go price the competing solutions. They are at least double.


Mike
MU-2

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> Does anyone else think the cost of a 530 with TAWS, or the $8,000 to add
> it, is anywhere near reasonable? Perhaps someone could tell us what
> incredible amount of programming, testing, processor improvement, or
> whatever this takes.
>
> I am thinking that this simply reflects more of Garmin getting too proud
> of their success and their market domination. While I like the G1000
> better than the present Avidyne and Chelton solutions, I am now hoping
> avidyne "one ups" them in the next round.
>
> Garmin has been making plenty of mistakes lately, and they should start
> trying harder again.
>
>
>

[Dude]

The only functionally similar solution I am aware of is the anywhere map
system and other hand helds. Who else does the simple red and yellow style
solution? Does it do something I am not aware of?

I realize the differences in certification and other costs associated with
handhelds, but we are talking about adding the price of an entire 430 just
to add one feature.



"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Why don't you go price the competing solutions. They are at least double.
>
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Does anyone else think the cost of a 530 with TAWS, or the $8,000 to add
>> it, is anywhere near reasonable? Perhaps someone could tell us what
>> incredible amount of programming, testing, processor improvement, or
>> whatever this takes.
>>
>> I am thinking that this simply reflects more of Garmin getting too proud
>> of their success and their market domination. While I like the G1000
>> better than the present Avidyne and Chelton solutions, I am now hoping
>> avidyne "one ups" them in the next round.
>>
>> Garmin has been making plenty of mistakes lately, and they should start
>> trying harder again.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Dude]

> The only functionally similar solution I am aware of is the anywhere map
> system and other hand helds. Who else does the simple red and yellow
> style solution? Does it do something I am not aware of?
>
> I realize the differences in certification and other costs associated with
> handhelds, but we are talking about adding the price of an entire 430 just
> to add one feature.
>
>

PS Is this just a matter of profiting off the TAWS requirement for 135
operators?

I suppose they would also try to sell aspirin to heart patients for $500 a
year because its cheaper than an operation?

[Mike Rapoport]

None of the solutions you are talking about are TAWS or really even close to
TAWS. Garmin's 430/530 terrain feature that resembles the handheld
functionality you are talking about is $500.

Mike
MU-2


"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> The only functionally similar solution I am aware of is the anywhere map
> system and other hand helds. Who else does the simple red and yellow
> style solution? Does it do something I am not aware of?
>
> I realize the differences in certification and other costs associated with
> handhelds, but we are talking about adding the price of an entire 430 just
> to add one feature.
>
>
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> Why don't you go price the competing solutions. They are at least
>> double.
>>
>>
>> Mike
>> MU-2
>>
>> "Dude" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Does anyone else think the cost of a 530 with TAWS, or the $8,000 to add
>>> it, is anywhere near reasonable? Perhaps someone could tell us what
>>> incredible amount of programming, testing, processor improvement, or
>>> whatever this takes.
>>>
>>> I am thinking that this simply reflects more of Garmin getting too proud
>>> of their success and their market domination. While I like the G1000
>>> better than the present Avidyne and Chelton solutions, I am now hoping
>>> avidyne "one ups" them in the next round.
>>>
>>> Garmin has been making plenty of mistakes lately, and they should start
>>> trying harder again.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Dude]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> None of the solutions you are talking about are TAWS or really even close
> to TAWS. Garmin's 430/530 terrain feature that resembles the handheld
> functionality you are talking about is $500.
>


Suddenly I feel like Gilda Radner.

"Oh, nevremind"

SO what DO you get other than yellow and red. That seems to be what they
are calling TAWS in the G1000.

[Mike Rapoport]

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> None of the solutions you are talking about are TAWS or really even close
>> to TAWS. Garmin's 430/530 terrain feature that resembles the handheld
>> functionality you are talking about is $500.
>>
>
>
> Suddenly I feel like Gilda Radner.
>
> "Oh, nevremind"
>
> SO what DO you get other than yellow and red. That seems to be what they
> are calling TAWS in the G1000.
>

TAWS incorporates ground closure rate and look-ahead. It gives audio
commands ("pull-up, pull-up"). Also since the product has been shown for
well over a year and was supposed to be available a year ago, we can assume
that it has been a PITA to certify. The competing TAWS products are
Honeywell's EGPWS and Sandal's TAWS both of which cost much more (more than
2X) than Garmin's solution and also require expensive installation. TAWS
is only required on turbine aircraft certified with six or more passenger
seats and I doubt that it will sell well in the piston market since the $500
"yellow and black" solution will be availible there. I sent my 530 out
yesterday for the TAWS installation and the beauty of it is that no complex
installation is required saving many thousands.

The "yellow and black only" terrain only requires a terrain database
installed in the second data card slot.

Mike
MU-2

[C Kingsbury]

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
>
> I am thinking that this simply reflects more of Garmin getting too proud
of
> their success and their market domination. While I like the G1000 better
> than the present Avidyne and Chelton solutions, I am now hoping avidyne
"one
> ups" them in the next round.
>
> Garmin has been making plenty of mistakes lately, and they should start
> trying harder again.
>

Much as I hate to say it, Garmin looks pretty far ahead of the alternatives
right now. You said it yourself- the G1000 is better than the Avidyne
solution, which invariably includes a pair of GNS-430s anyway. I can
understand Cirrus sticking by Avidyne, but I'm surprised that Piper and
Lancair would choose it, given the options. Is the price differential that
great for a complete system?

Frankly I'd say everyone else is making a lot more mistakes than Garmin.
Avidyne's system requires them to purchase $15k of boxes from their only
competitor and King will soon be in the buggy-whip business unless they buy
out Avidyne or come up with a competing system. They still barely have a
good answer to the GNS-430, and that's been out for how many years?

I'll tell you what, Garmin is set to own the avionics business in the
sub-12,500lb segment. Their real advantage will be the volume they get in
the very light jet segment, where the G1000 likely beats the bag out of
Collins, etc. in terms of price. Pretty amazing when you think about the
same basic flight deck going into a 172 as a Mustang. Some "mistake."

-cwk.

[Dude]

> Much as I hate to say it, Garmin looks pretty far ahead of the
> alternatives
> right now. You said it yourself- the G1000 is better than the Avidyne
> solution, which invariably includes a pair of GNS-430s anyway. I can
> understand Cirrus sticking by Avidyne, but I'm surprised that Piper and
> Lancair would choose it, given the options. Is the price differential that
> great for a complete system?
>
> Frankly I'd say everyone else is making a lot more mistakes than Garmin.
> Avidyne's system requires them to purchase $15k of boxes from their only
> competitor and King will soon be in the buggy-whip business unless they
> buy
> out Avidyne or come up with a competing system. They still barely have a
> good answer to the GNS-430, and that's been out for how many years?
>
> I'll tell you what, Garmin is set to own the avionics business in the
> sub-12,500lb segment. Their real advantage will be the volume they get in
> the very light jet segment, where the G1000 likely beats the bag out of
> Collins, etc. in terms of price. Pretty amazing when you think about the
> same basic flight deck going into a 172 as a Mustang. Some "mistake."
>
> -cwk.
>
>

You are listing their successes and saying they are not making any mistakes.
That doesn't hold any water. The mistakes they make today could easily be
their downfall in the future, and the big one is pride.

They were late on the G1000 and have been late on almost everything else
recently, yet you would not know it from the way they act as a company.
Frankly, if you meet with them for very long, you will find they pretty much
all think their excrement doesn't smell bad. The attitude is that Garmin is
God's gift to GA. I have seen plenty of companies the size of Garmin get
smacked upside the head for having that attitude at this stage of the game.

I have heard plenty of complaints from their customers not being happy with
the level of support or even the attitude they get when they call. OTOH, I
do still hear positive comments about the same things. The problem is that
when you PO an owner, he may never give you the chance to P him O again.

Old Gar and Min better figure out a way to feed those kids humble pie this
christmas and get them back on the ball. Otherwise, a couple other guys who
no one ever heard of may "own" this business in ten or twelve years.

Just because Cessna has gotten away with aggravating everyone in the
business doesn't mean they can get away with it.

[Almarz]

I think Gary is gone from the business.

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 20:59:39 GMT, "Dude" > wrote:


>You are listing their successes and saying they are not making any mistakes.
>That doesn't hold any water. The mistakes they make today could easily be
>their downfall in the future, and the big one is pride.
>
>They were late on the G1000 and have been late on almost everything else
>recently, yet you would not know it from the way they act as a company.
>Frankly, if you meet with them for very long, you will find they pretty much
>all think their excrement doesn't smell bad. The attitude is that Garmin is
>God's gift to GA. I have seen plenty of companies the size of Garmin get
>smacked upside the head for having that attitude at this stage of the game.
>
>I have heard plenty of complaints from their customers not being happy with
>the level of support or even the attitude they get when they call. OTOH, I
>do still hear positive comments about the same things. The problem is that
>when you PO an owner, he may never give you the chance to P him O again.
>
>Old Gar and Min better figure out a way to feed those kids humble pie this
>christmas and get them back on the ball. Otherwise, a couple other guys who
>no one ever heard of may "own" this business in ten or twelve years.
>
>Just because Cessna has gotten away with aggravating everyone in the
>business doesn't mean they can get away with it.
>
>
>

[C Kingsbury]

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> > Much as I hate to say it, Garmin looks pretty far ahead of the
> > alternatives
>
> You are listing their successes and saying they are not making any
mistakes.
> That doesn't hold any water. The mistakes they make today could easily be
> their downfall in the future, and the big one is pride.

Pride didn't stop Microsoft from gaining their position and they never met a
release date they didn't blow. The only things that will hurt Garmin are (a)
deterioration of their market or (b) competition.

Garmin is well-positioned for the swings of the GA market because the G1000
spans such a broad swathe of the aviation market. Avidyne, OTOH, is nearly
100% tied to new shipments of piston singles, which is the most cyclical
segment of the market.

As to competition, who? The barriers to entry are substantial- designing and
certifying a G1000 competitor would probably cost well into the tens of
millions. Even Avidyne hasn't done this, if you consider that the Entegra
system gets its navigation and communication capabilities from *Garmin*
radios. We're probably talking on the order of fifty million or more. That's
a major chunk of change.

Now, how big is the GA avionics market, really? Let's say that Cessna,
Piper, Cirrus, and Diamond ship about 4,000 new planes per year, and adding
everybody else gets us to 5,000. Assuming every single one of these gets a
full glass flight deck at the value of $30k per plane, you're looking at
$150 million per year. That's not profit, either, just revenue. I suspect
there is more money in those little packets of salt and ketchup you get at
McDonald's, with a lot fewer difficulties.

Adding all this together, it looks pretty unlikely that anyone new is going
to enter this market. The best hope that's out there is for King and Avidyne
to get together and come up with a real G1000 alternative, but I wouldn't
bet on it. In fact, my portfolio is betting that Garmin will continue
cleaning up, as they have been doing for some time now.

-cwk.

[Dude]

Avidyne is already working on this, as is Honeywell.

Avidyne already is working with one of the speculative microjet players, and
Honeywell could move down - though not likely.

I believe the barriers to entry are not all that large anymore. Also, this
market attracts people with big money and who seemingly are not all that
worried about big profits (or they are serious dreamers).

Either the market is profitable enough that it makes sense to enter, or its
low margins in which case a spotless image is even more important to keep up
volumes.



"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
>> > Much as I hate to say it, Garmin looks pretty far ahead of the
>> > alternatives
>>
>> You are listing their successes and saying they are not making any
> mistakes.
>> That doesn't hold any water. The mistakes they make today could easily be
>> their downfall in the future, and the big one is pride.
>
> Pride didn't stop Microsoft from gaining their position and they never met
> a
> release date they didn't blow. The only things that will hurt Garmin are
> (a)
> deterioration of their market or (b) competition.
>
> Garmin is well-positioned for the swings of the GA market because the
> G1000
> spans such a broad swathe of the aviation market. Avidyne, OTOH, is nearly
> 100% tied to new shipments of piston singles, which is the most cyclical
> segment of the market.
>
> As to competition, who? The barriers to entry are substantial- designing
> and
> certifying a G1000 competitor would probably cost well into the tens of
> millions. Even Avidyne hasn't done this, if you consider that the Entegra
> system gets its navigation and communication capabilities from *Garmin*
> radios. We're probably talking on the order of fifty million or more.
> That's
> a major chunk of change.
>
> Now, how big is the GA avionics market, really? Let's say that Cessna,
> Piper, Cirrus, and Diamond ship about 4,000 new planes per year, and
> adding
> everybody else gets us to 5,000. Assuming every single one of these gets a
> full glass flight deck at the value of $30k per plane, you're looking at
> $150 million per year. That's not profit, either, just revenue. I suspect
> there is more money in those little packets of salt and ketchup you get at
> McDonald's, with a lot fewer difficulties.
>
> Adding all this together, it looks pretty unlikely that anyone new is
> going
> to enter this market. The best hope that's out there is for King and
> Avidyne
> to get together and come up with a real G1000 alternative, but I wouldn't
> bet on it. In fact, my portfolio is betting that Garmin will continue
> cleaning up, as they have been doing for some time now.
>
> -cwk.
>
>