c-152 rudder???

[houstondan]

i really need to start this by saying i know absolutely nothing new or
bad about any aircraft. i'm sure not trying to start any rumors. in
fact, this may be something that y'all have already chewed on but...

the outfit i rent from is just down the taxiway from "air aces" at
houston-hooks where they've had a horrible time with wings coming off
airplanes lately.

in talking about that, one of the people at my base....not at "aces"...
told me they have been hearing about faa looking into a structural
problem with c-152 rudders. since they've got several and since i'm
almost certainly going to be buying one in the next few months we're
kinda curious about what might be going on.

anybody???


dan

[Michael]

>in talking about that, one of the people at my base....not at
"aces"...
>told me they have been hearing about faa looking into a structural
>problem with c-152 rudders. since they've got several and since i'm
>almost certainly going to be buying one in the next few months we're
>kinda curious about what might be going on.

Of the thousands that have been built and flown hard as trainers, a few
dozen have developed some cracks that were found on inspections (not by
the tail coming off - that never happened on any C-150 or C-152) and
there's going to be an inspection required for cracks (may already be
out) on a periodic basis. This type of AD is very common on all-metal
airplanes and not a big deal.

BTW - you should consider the Tomahawk if you are in the market for a
C-152. Generally more bang for the buck, roomier, better visibility,
carries more fuel, and a bit faster. Not as good for soft/rough fields
though.

Michael

[J. Severyn]

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>i really need to start this by saying i know absolutely nothing new or
> bad about any aircraft. i'm sure not trying to start any rumors. in
> fact, this may be something that y'all have already chewed on but...
>
> the outfit i rent from is just down the taxiway from "air aces" at
> houston-hooks where they've had a horrible time with wings coming off
> airplanes lately.
>
> in talking about that, one of the people at my base....not at "aces"...
> told me they have been hearing about faa looking into a structural
> problem with c-152 rudders. since they've got several and since i'm
> almost certainly going to be buying one in the next few months we're
> kinda curious about what might be going on.
>
> anybody???
>
>
> dan
>
Check out the following link:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/SystemSafety/newsletters/tp3658/4-00/536.htm
It seems if the rudder stop is deformed, it is possible that when you go to
full rudder deflection, to catch on the deformed rudder stop, which locks
the rudder hard-over. Moral: make sure the rudder stops are properly set
and in good structural condition. FAA has been contemplating an AD for a
while. Just be proactive. Make the rudder stops and the lower rudder horns
a walk-around item.

J. Severyn

[houstondan]

excellent help...thx


dan

[clyde woempner]

I have had our 150/150 for many years. It is a solid honest airplane and I
used it for 8.5 years to commute, about once/twice a month, from the L.A.
area to the Eureka area. With the tip tanks this was a non stop flight with
enough reserve for another hour. With the prop pitched for cruise, I was
able to throttle back to 2100 RPM and cruised at 110 mph. At this setting I
burned 6.5 Gals/hour. Now that I'm retired & the wife about too, this is
ideal for our trips, to visit the grand kids in San Diego. Whenever I do
need a bigger plane, it is no big deal to rent one, but 99% of my flying is
by myself. The 0320-e2d motor has been trouble free, just a nice set-up,
and easy on the pocket book. Just depends on what your needs are, so take
into consideration what you are going to be doing with the plane, family
size, distances, costs, ETC.
Clyde
PS: there is a Ad notice for repeated inspection of the nut plates on the
tail assy.

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> i really need to start this by saying i know absolutely nothing new or
> bad about any aircraft. i'm sure not trying to start any rumors. in
> fact, this may be something that y'all have already chewed on but...
>
> the outfit i rent from is just down the taxiway from "air aces" at
> houston-hooks where they've had a horrible time with wings coming off
> airplanes lately.
>
> in talking about that, one of the people at my base....not at "aces"...
> told me they have been hearing about faa looking into a structural
> problem with c-152 rudders. since they've got several and since i'm
> almost certainly going to be buying one in the next few months we're
> kinda curious about what might be going on.
>
> anybody???
>
>
> dan
>

[houstondan]

everything i'm reading, here and elswhere, is moving me toward buying a
150/2. there are issues about engine hp, nose/tail wheel, aerobatic
etc that i need to work thru and i'm starting think airframe time may
be a bigger factor, long term, than engine time.

dan

[Ron Natalie]

J. Severyn wrote:

>
> Check out the following link:
> http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/SystemSafety/newsletters/tp3658/4-00/536.htm
> It seems if the rudder stop is deformed, it is possible that when you go to
> full rudder deflection, to catch on the deformed rudder stop, which locks
> the rudder hard-over.

This aircraft had serious damage, improper repairs, and bogus mainentance
far beyond what one would see in decades of student pilot abuse.

[Jay Honeck]

>I have had our 150/150 for many years.

IMHO, the C-150 with an O-320 is just about the best 2-seat plane for the
money out there.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> IMHO, the C-150 with an O-320 is just about the best 2-seat plane for the
> money out there.

IMHO, the C-150 is the best 2-seat plane for the money there is. It's not the
fastest, but it's faster than anything else that uses the same runway and
carries the same load with the same power. Not the shortest takeoff, but shorter
than anything else that goes as fast with the same power. Not the best carrying
capacity, but better than anything else that gets off the ground as well and
carries as much with 100hp.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[[email protected]]

G.R. Patterson III > wrote:
: IMHO, the C-150 is the best 2-seat plane for the money there is. It's not the
: fastest, but it's faster than anything else that uses the same runway and
: carries the same load with the same power. Not the shortest takeoff, but shorter
: than anything else that goes as fast with the same power. Not the best carrying
: capacity, but better than anything else that gets off the ground as well and
: carries as much with 100hp.

Interesting way to look at it. I'd tend to agree, although it's
pretty easy to grow out of it quickly. We (three of us) looked seriously
at C-150s for awhile until we realized that for not much more $$ (25-30k
instead of 18-22k) we could get 3 place, cross-country-able machine
(PA-28-140). Not to poo-poo a 150... great trainer and great boppering
around plane. Not so much for IFR training in any mountains or going too
far conviently or in a hurry.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[nuke]

>IMHO, the C-150 is the best 2-seat plane for the money there is.

I'd take a Citabria any day over the 150/152. It's just a lot more fun flying.


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

[houstondan]

funny you should mention the citabria. i've been drooling over those
too and i even know where there's an ignored one with half flat tires
and evidence that she was a banner-dragger up untill maybe a year ago.

end of the day, i like having that seat beside me. honestly, i didn't
know there was an aerobatic 150/2 out there so now i have to read up
on that. i really like the idea of having something that is rated for
high stress if i'm just going to be putting around. what's the price
premium for aerobatic rating? i'm already interested in taildraggers
so...


dan

[houstondan]

tomahawk??? ya got me....i'll google it. thx


dan

[Dave Stadt]

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> funny you should mention the citabria. i've been drooling over those
> too and i even know where there's an ignored one with half flat tires
> and evidence that she was a banner-dragger up untill maybe a year ago.
>
> end of the day, i like having that seat beside me. honestly, i didn't
> know there was an aerobatic 150/2 out there so now i have to read up
> on that. i really like the idea of having something that is rated for
> high stress if i'm just going to be putting around. what's the price
> premium for aerobatic rating? i'm already interested in taildraggers
> so...
>
>
> dan

If you are interested in taildraggers check the Cessna 120/140s. They will
do everything a 150/2 will do only faster and burn less fuel.

[houstondan]

ok, i found the tomahawk. nope, living in houston, i just think the
sun beating down on me thru that bubble would be too much. i've talked
to people here who say it's pretty bad. it does look like a great a/c
tho.


dan

[The Rebel]

Oh, the Trauma-hawk. If there has ever been a plane plagued with AD's up
the ass, this is the one.

--
www.geocities.com/ralphsnart2004/index.html

"houstondan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> tomahawk??? ya got me....i'll google it. thx
>
>
> dan
>

[Michael]

>living in houston, i just think the
>sun beating down on me thru that bubble would be too much.

Your call, of course, but before you make the decision, you might drive
on over to Pearland Regional (formerly Clover) and fly one of Mike
King's when summer comes around. I've never found it to be a problem
because on the ground it's easy to keep the doors open, and once
airborne the ventilation is excellent.

I've seen Tommy's with low time engines and airframes and good IFR
panels going for $20K.

Michael

[houstondan]

i'll check it out. do apppreciate the input.

dan

[nrp]

The vertical fin on a C-150 is held on to the fuselage with a welded
steel bracket riveted into the aluminum structure. The welds are in
the corners where the stress is highest. The steel undergoes galvanic
corrosion when it is close to aluminum. These aircraft are being used
well beyond their original intended lifetime and this steel fitting was
cracked in the welds on the two 150s I'm familiar with. I thought it
was a recent AD or at least a recent service letter. They were
certainly not airworthy.

This should be checked at annual on any 150 since it is an area of
known service difficulty.

The 172s don't have this problem with the bracket as it is an aluminum
forging - not prone to corrosion.

It would be one thing to lose a rudder, but losing both the rudder and
vertical fin would be pretty exciting. It would be even worse if the
rudder cables kept the separated surfaces attached to the rest of the
airplane.

[[email protected]]

It's more than just rudder stops. The stops themselves are strong
enough and don't get "deformed" much. The rudder hinges wear and the
bellcrank can get bent or loose in the rudder, and these contribute to
the rudder stop going over the stop head and getting caught. Once that
happens, there's nothing you can do from the cockpit to unhook it.
There was an accident here in Canada that resulted in a Canadian
AD forcing modification of the stops. A student and instructor were
killed when the rudder locked hard over when entering a practice spin
and they couldn't stop the rotation, thereby preventing spin recovery.
There's a Cessna Service Bulletin against the stops, too. Any
150/152 owner would be wise to get it checked out. There are a lot of
aging airplanes out there with worn-out parts in the rudder system.
Cessna sells a kit to install non-catching stops.

Dan

[[email protected]]

Which is what would happen. Any control surface falling off is a
death sentence.
Besides, the rudder is part of the vertical surface contributing to
lateral stability. The airplane would be inclined to fly sideways
without the rudder. Some aircraft, like my Jodel and many of the Zenair
airplanes, have no fixed vertical surface and rely almost entirely on
the rudder for stability.

Dan

[Roy Smith]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> It's more than just rudder stops. The stops themselves are strong
> enough and don't get "deformed" much. The rudder hinges wear and the
> bellcrank can get bent or loose in the rudder, and these contribute to
> the rudder stop going over the stop head and getting caught. Once that
> happens, there's nothing you can do from the cockpit to unhook it.
> There was an accident here in Canada that resulted in a Canadian
> AD forcing modification of the stops. A student and instructor were
> killed when the rudder locked hard over when entering a practice spin
> and they couldn't stop the rotation, thereby preventing spin recovery.
> There's a Cessna Service Bulletin against the stops, too. Any
> 150/152 owner would be wise to get it checked out. There are a lot of
> aging airplanes out there with worn-out parts in the rudder system.
> Cessna sells a kit to install non-catching stops.
>
> Dan

I was taught for both the 152 and the 172 that during preflight you
should push the rudder from stop-to-stop and verify that the stops hit
head-on and everything is secure.

[houstondan]

ok, that's something new for me. all i know to do is just look to see
if everything seems connected and wiggle it a little. can you please
talk a little more about how to really check the rudder.?
dan....oh, and thanks!

[Michael]

> Any control surface falling off is a death sentence.

I know a pilot who lost a control surface in a 150 Aerobat who will be
very surprised to hear it. Rumors of his death are highly exaggerated.
Michael

[Newps]

>>Any control surface falling off is a death sentence.

Losing a rudder would be no big deal. Losing one aileron doesn't render
the aircraft unflyable, lose both and you'd have to drive with the
rudder. Losing one or both flaps isn't a big deal.

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Which is what would happen. Any control surface falling off is a
> death sentence.

Not.


> Besides, the rudder is part of the vertical surface contributing to
> lateral stability. The airplane would be inclined to fly sideways
> without the rudder. Some aircraft, like my Jodel and many of the Zenair
> airplanes, have no fixed vertical surface and rely almost entirely on
> the rudder for stability.
>
> Dan
>

[nuke]

<< Losing a rudder would be no big deal. Losing one aileron doesn't render
the aircraft unflyable, lose both and you'd have to drive with the
rudder. Losing one or both flaps isn't a big deal.
>><BR><BR>


I once watched a pipe line patrol hop in a 152, start it up and take off -
missing an aileron. So much for a careful pre-flight. Came around the pattern,
taxied back, shut her down and walked away.


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

[Henry and Debbie McFarland]

"clyde woempner" > wrote in message
...
>I have had our 150/150 for many years. It is a solid honest airplane and I
> used it for 8.5 years to commute, about once/twice a month, from the L.A.
> area to the Eureka area. With the tip tanks this was a non stop flight
> with
> enough reserve for another hour. With the prop pitched for cruise, I was
> able to throttle back to 2100 RPM and cruised at 110 mph. At this setting
> I
> burned 6.5 Gals/hour


I have a C-85 with 0-200 insides in my Luscombe 8E. I cruise at 110 mph and
climb about 1000 fpm. I have a standard prop (1A90 at 7151). I burn 5.5 gph
consistently. I carry 27.5 gallons of fuel so my range is longer than I can
endure without a stop.

I can carry 75 lb baggage, but it's hard getting 75 lbs back there! I do use
my airplane to camp regularly.

Deb
--
1946 Luscombe 8A (His)
1948 Luscombe 8E (Hers)
1954 Cessna 195B, restoring (Ours)
Jasper, Ga. (JZP)

[[email protected]]

Grab the bottom of the rudder and pull back and down a bit to see if
the hinges are worn. The rudder pedal springs hold the rudder forward
and the slop isn't readily evident during a normal preflight. See if
you can wiggle the bellcrank in the rudder, or if there's any
deformation of the metal that it's attached to. Some nervous pilots
are in the habit of standing on the pedals with tense leg muscles,
putting a lot of strain on the bottom end of the rudder. Some people
have their airplanes tied down outside in strong winds and the rudder
gets bashed against the stops, beating things up.

Dan

[[email protected]]

Missing a control surface is different than losing one in flight.
Cables are pretty strong and might tend to hold on until something else
breaks, and in the meantime there's a lot of unusual drag and flapping
around going on. I sure wouldn't want to be aboard. A Cessna's aileron
pushrod would probably bust right of and let the aileron go, but a
rudder would be a different story.
I'm an aircraft mechanic and a pilot. I hear stories that make
me look at things closely. I have a mechanic friend who did some
experimental reasearch on the cable breakage of Cessna 185 flap control
system. They disconnected the LH flap and tried to see, in flight, what
might happen if one was down and the other up. They were just able to
keep it level with full aileron as the RH flap came all the way down.
He said that if that cable broke suddenly at low level on approach
there would be no way to control the airplane; it would roll over right
away.
Dan

[Ron Natalie]

wrote:

> There was an accident here in Canada that resulted in a Canadian
> AD forcing modification of the stops. A student and instructor were
> killed when the rudder locked hard over when entering a practice spin
> and they couldn't stop the rotation, thereby preventing spin recovery.

That was already posted on this thread. However, that aircraft had lots
of unrepaired and mismaintenance with regard to the tail that exacerbated
the problem. Still getting back to the original assertion, had they not
been in a spin already when it locked up, it probably wouldn't have been
an issue.

[[email protected]]

No, it wouldn't, but it's still not safe. If things are that
worn and beat up, what else on the airplane is waiting to bite someone?
Further, if a pilot inadvertently enters an incipient spin because of
mishandling, he will, if trained properly, use opposite rudder to
recover, and he might do it fast and hard and get rudder lockup and
control loss.
In Canada spin training is mandatory for Commercial students. The
airplanes have to be maintained properly, like they should be anyway. I
see lots of horror stories when I look at some neglected airplanes that
are still being flown, and wonder why there aren't more accidents.
Dan

[Ron Natalie]

wrote:
> No, it wouldn't, but it's still not safe. If things are that
> worn and beat up, what else on the airplane is waiting to bite someone?

Much indeed. Did you read the report? That aircraft had other
serious problems: eppenage structural damage repaired with tape,
rudder cable tension problems, etc...

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> AD forcing modification of the stops. A student and instructor were
> killed when the rudder locked hard over when entering a practice spin
> and they couldn't stop the rotation, thereby preventing spin
recovery.

btw, according to the accident report (you should be able to find it
somewhere
on www.tsb.gc.ca), the student didn't die, but did sustain serious
injuries,
since they spun into a lake.

And if you haven't read the accident report, there was a bunch of
stuff,
including a rudder return spring missing, that contributed to the
rudder
jamming hard over. They couldn't get the rudder to jam over when it was
just
a worn stop bolt, but they recommended an SB for the stop bolt anyhow.
It's well worth the read, rick
ps: And it was a C150, not C152.

[[email protected]]

A broken rudder return spring won't contribute much, if any, to
the stop-locking problem, but it will make the airplane fly cockeyed
unless you hold pedal pressure against the good spring. We used to run
two 150s, and had (and still do have) springs break at various times
both in the 150s and 172s. The pilot complains of really bad rudder
trim. The rudder cable tension is determined by the springs, and isn't
very high at any time.
As I said earlier, the stop bolts don't wear that much. It's worn
hinges and loose bellcranks that allow the little hook on the stop to
ride past the bolt head and get caught. Ironically, it's the same
little hook that's supposed to prevent the override. Seeing a good stop
doesn't mean there's no problem. There are likely very few 150/152s
like this, but it's worth getting it checked at annual. The new stops
have no hook and are much longer and wider, and the stop bolt has a
larger head.

Dan

[nrp]

Losing the rudder cleanly would probably be survivable as students have
been ignoring it for years. However, I contend that losing both the
rudder and the vertical fin would almost certainly cause a crash. Any
use of the ailerons in that circumstance would create a slight amount
of adverse yaw moment that would have almost no reaction surface. The
fuselage rear cone (especially on a later small tailcone diameter 150s)
would not be very effective restoring moment just at the time when you
would want to use a lot of the ailerons to get a semblance of steering.


There is redundancy in the aileron system. There is no redundancy in
the rudder/fin system.

I do recall a picture in Aviation Week many years ago though that
showed a B-52 with the whole vertical fin and rudder gone from a
thunderstorm. Otherwise it would be the Sioux City DC-10 accident all
over again but without the possibilities of differential engine thrust.
No thanks.

[[email protected]]

The Cessna's aileron control system uses bellcranks in
the wings, with pushrods from the bellcranks to the aileron, and cables
from the bellcranks to the control wheels. A departed aileron would
hopefully take the rod off and leave the airplane, and the bellcranks
should continue to operate. If the rod didn't fail, or iff the
bellcrank was damaged, the whole system would be fouled up. An airplane
such as a Cub, or my Jodel, that has cables directly to the ailerons,
would have no aileron control at all if one aileron failed. All the
cable tensions are gone. You might have control in one direction, and
not the other.

Dan

[Don Hammer]

The issue on the 150/152 is the vertical stabilizer attachment and not
the rudder. See http://www.cessna150-152.com/acs-vtab.htm



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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[[email protected]]

Well, there we are. The FAA isn't concerned about the rudder stops;
only Cessna and the Canadian Government are. The fin attach is what the
FAA wants looked at, and it seems to be age-related as the rate of SDR
reports comes up. They also mention horizontal stab spar cracking,
which has been an issue in 172s for years and is (in the 172, at least)
often caused by folks pushing down on the stab to turn the airplane on
the ground.
I would anticipate many more issues arising as the fleet ages.
Our older 172s are beginning to show the odd crack here and there, and
Cessna sends out Service Bulletins that we take seriously and we often
find problems where they tell us to look. There are 172s here in Canada
with almost 20,000 hours on them, still flying, but they require
watching. I don't think Cessna ever intended them to last so long. I
wish new ones cost less.

Dan

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> A broken rudder return spring won't contribute much, if any, to
> the stop-locking problem, but it will make the airplane fly cockeyed
> unless you hold pedal pressure against the good spring. We used to
run
> two 150s, and had (and still do have) springs break at various times
> both in the 150s and 172s. The pilot complains of really bad rudder
> trim. The rudder cable tension is determined by the springs, and
isn't
> very high at any time.

Well, the report is at
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1998/a98q0114/a98q0114.asp
and it clearly states that they were only able to reproduce the case
where the rudder jammed past the stop bolt by removing the rudder
return
spring. It's about 2/3rds of the way through the document, after all
the
stuff about CARs violations. (It sounds like slackness of the rudder
cable
was the deciding factor.) It also required up elevator to allow it to
go
past the stop bolt(but of course that would be the case when doing an
intentional spin).

Interesting reading. Oh, and I was incorrect before, it was a C152,
rick