430 vs 480 (CNX80) rehashed

[N2SX]

I know this has been discussed and discussed here, but I wanted to
share some information that I just received from the company that
produces a few excellent training computer programs for avionics.

Some background - I flew a cherokee 180 with a 430 for about 5 years.
This year I moved to a Lance and put in the cnx-80 and mx-20. I have
flown the heck out of that plane this year, so I have a good bit of
flying time with both the 430 and cnx-80 (it is in the shop now getting
"upgraded" to a 480).

I purchased the cnx-80 over a 430 (which I was very familiar with) for
the same reasons that have been expressed here before - airways,
vertical appraoch guidance, faster processer (and thus better response
time), etc. Being used to the 430, I did have some transition time
getting used to the cnx-80, but I am as, if not more, comfortable with
the new box as I was with the 430. I think the "overkill" or too
complex arguments have been a bit overstated.

Now my point, I have used the autopilot and lightning educational
software from Electronic Flight Solutions. I thought I knew everything
about those systems, but was surprised by how much I learned. So I
inquired about a 480 trainer. I was told that there were no plans for
that b/c the expectation was that the 480 would not be around much
longer. His argument was that once the $5,000 waas upgrade for the
430/530 is released next year, garmin would likely dump the 480.

He sais the 480 was just too complicated. As I indicated, I strongly
disagree with that. What do you think? What are the implications for us
cnx-80 owners with such a short-lived product?

Elton Dodson
Lance 2SX

[Marco Leon]

As I've expressed before in this group, I believe that the 480 has a handful
of benefits over the 430/530 functionality set. However, being only a
"handful," these can be incorporated into the 430/530 software relatively
easily. As part of the WAAS upgrade for the latter boxes, they will receive
a new processor, new software, and (if purchased) a new map chip that will
be part of the $500 terrain option. The WAAS upgrade mandates the vertical
guidance and faster processor in its TSO so the only major GNS 480 benefit
would be the airways capability in the flight planning function. I'm not
100% familiar with the 480 functionality but from what I know/heard/read,
the airways is the only major difference.

I predict that we'll see airway capability in the 430/530 WAAS upgrade. If
Garmin does this, what you have left is a legacy box that is essentially the
same as the 430 and 530 but isn't as user-friendly, doesn't have terrain,
and does not have VFR map features. Sure the 480 has a transponder interface
but I don't see it being easier than punching the numbers in the GTX
327/330.

I think the box will be "officially" supported by Garmin and Jeppesen but I
wouldn't expect to see the terrain option or any other significant software
upgrades after the most recent CNX-80=>GNS480 upgrade.

Marco Leon




"N2SX" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I know this has been discussed and discussed here, but I wanted to
> share some information that I just received from the company that
> produces a few excellent training computer programs for avionics.
>
> Some background - I flew a cherokee 180 with a 430 for about 5 years.
> This year I moved to a Lance and put in the cnx-80 and mx-20. I have
> flown the heck out of that plane this year, so I have a good bit of
> flying time with both the 430 and cnx-80 (it is in the shop now getting
> "upgraded" to a 480).
>
> I purchased the cnx-80 over a 430 (which I was very familiar with) for
> the same reasons that have been expressed here before - airways,
> vertical appraoch guidance, faster processer (and thus better response
> time), etc. Being used to the 430, I did have some transition time
> getting used to the cnx-80, but I am as, if not more, comfortable with
> the new box as I was with the 430. I think the "overkill" or too
> complex arguments have been a bit overstated.
>
> Now my point, I have used the autopilot and lightning educational
> software from Electronic Flight Solutions. I thought I knew everything
> about those systems, but was surprised by how much I learned. So I
> inquired about a 480 trainer. I was told that there were no plans for
> that b/c the expectation was that the 480 would not be around much
> longer. His argument was that once the $5,000 waas upgrade for the
> 430/530 is released next year, garmin would likely dump the 480.
>
> He sais the 480 was just too complicated. As I indicated, I strongly
> disagree with that. What do you think? What are the implications for us
> cnx-80 owners with such a short-lived product?
>
> Elton Dodson
> Lance 2SX
>

[Hankal]

>His argument was that once the $5,000 waas upgrade for the
>430/530 is released next year, garmin would likely dump the 480.
>

IMHO the opposite may be true.
Garmin will cut back on the 430 until the 480 is bought in quantities.
I wanted the 430, but for a few buck more got the 480.
Hank

[Andrew Gideon]

"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote:

> I predict that we'll see airway capability in the 430/530 WAAS upgrade.

I very much hope you're correct (as our club has four 430s {8^). I asked a
Garmin rep about this twice, and was told both times essentially "maybe,
but it isn't too likely because of the added complexity".

I don't see this myself, as it would appear to be *much* easier for a
serious IFR pilot to have airway-based flight plan entry at least around
here where we have to fly them.

- Andrew

[Mike Rapoport]

"N2SX" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Now my point, I have used the autopilot and lightning educational
> software from Electronic Flight Solutions. I thought I knew everything
> about those systems, but was surprised by how much I learned. So I
> inquired about a 480 trainer. I was told that there were no plans for
> that b/c the expectation was that the 480 would not be around much
> longer. His argument was that once the $5,000 waas upgrade for the
> 430/530 is released next year, garmin would likely dump the 480.
>
> He sais the 480 was just too complicated. As I indicated, I strongly
> disagree with that. What do you think? What are the implications for us
> cnx-80 owners with such a short-lived product?
>
> Elton Dodson
> Lance 2SX
>

Why are you considering the opinion of a guy who is saying that the WAAS
upgrade will be $5K?

Mike
MU-2

[Mike Adams]

"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote:

> I predict that we'll see airway capability in the 430/530 WAAS
> upgrade. If Garmin does this, what you have left is a legacy box that
> is essentially the same as the 430 and 530 but isn't as user-friendly,
> doesn't have terrain, and does not have VFR map features. Sure the 480
> has a transponder interface but I don't see it being easier than
> punching the numbers in the GTX 327/330.
>
> I think the box will be "officially" supported by Garmin and Jeppesen
> but I wouldn't expect to see the terrain option or any other
> significant software upgrades after the most recent CNX-80=>GNS480
> upgrade.
>

I just went through these deliberations to decide which box to get and finally went for the 480. The
installation is still underway, and I hope to get the plane back next week. I haven't played with the actual
boxes that much but after using the two PC simulators extensively, I find the 480 user interface more
straightforward. Those families of pages on the 430 accessed with the two knobs seem to be totally non-
intuitive to me. The 480 with its mode keys, line select keys and menus seem easier to use, but again,
the proof will be in using the actual box in the airplane while flying as opposed to sitting at the computer.

The other big consideration for me was trying to crystal-ball what the future of these two boxes is. The
480 seems to have a leg up in terms of features and capabilites, with its WAAS, VNAV, roll steering, and
airways, etc., but they can't just turn their back on the 430 with its huge installed base. Without any real
inside information, I finally concluded that the 480 is too nice a box to become an orphan, and with the
430 WAAS upgrade estimated at $1500, the cost difference between the two is not that great.

Time will tell. Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to getting the plane back and learning to fly with all the new
toys.

Mike

[N2SX]

I think we are all aware of the 1,500 ballpark for the 430/530 waas
update next year. I'm sorry I offended you so much by mistyping, mike.
Wish we could all be perfect.

My point was that I always assumed the 480 was the future rather than
the much older 430. My conversation with Electronic Flight was a
perspective that I hadn't considered. Keep in mind that EF has to have
a pretty close partnership with the makers of the avionics which they
make training software for. Thus, for those folks debating a 430 vs.
480, knowing whether or not the 480 is going to be around would be
pretty important. Too late for me, one way or the other.

I would say, though, that once the waas upgrade happens, the 480 and
430 will be functionally equivalent. I can't imagine, from a business
perspective, producing and selling both products. Seems to me that one
will have to go.

Elton
N2SX

[Hankal]

>I would say, though, that once the waas upgrade happens, the 480 and
>430 will be functionally equivalent. I can't imagine, from a business
>perspective, producing and selling both products. Seems to me that one
>will have to go.

My guess would be the 480 stays. It has airways which the 430 does not have.
Hank

[Mike Rapoport]

"N2SX" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I think we are all aware of the 1,500 ballpark for the 430/530 waas
> update next year. I'm sorry I offended you so much by mistyping, mike.
> Wish we could all be perfect.
>
> My point was that I always assumed the 480 was the future rather than
> the much older 430. My conversation with Electronic Flight was a
> perspective that I hadn't considered. Keep in mind that EF has to have
> a pretty close partnership with the makers of the avionics which they
> make training software for. Thus, for those folks debating a 430 vs.
> 480, knowing whether or not the 480 is going to be around would be
> pretty important. Too late for me, one way or the other.
>
> I would say, though, that once the waas upgrade happens, the 480 and
> 430 will be functionally equivalent. I can't imagine, from a business
> perspective, producing and selling both products. Seems to me that one
> will have to go.
>
> Elton
> N2SX

Sorry to hurt your feelings but you said that he said $5000. I make a lot
of typos but I don't see by looking at my keyboard how you can get $5000
instead of $1500. Anyway it is difficult to read the mind of someone you
don't know. You then went on to say that the guy predicted that the 480
would be orphaned. Garmin payed about $40MM for UPS and they will continue
selling the UPS-designed products until they are unprofitable and they will
continue to support the product well after that. They just realeased a
transponder unique to the 480. The goal is to make $$$, period..

The 480 was designed five years later than the 430 so it is naturally more
advanced. However, most of the 430's limitations are related to the TSO and
you can see that all the 129a boxes do the same things with only minor
variations. The 430 with WAAS will be able to do everything the 480 can do
if Garmin decides to duplicate the features as it will be a 146 box. In
fact, the 430 could be doing much of it now if the 146 boxes weren't
required to have a 5hz update rate. VNAV, for instance, is trivial. If you
know where you are and how high you are, it is easy to calculate what
descent is required to reach any given point at any given altitude.
Similiarly terrain was simple to add, you have a screen and know your
location already. All that was added was geo-referenced elevation data.
Getting the FAA to approve it is somewhat more difficult than actually
developing the product though.

I agree that given the small price difference, the 480 is attractive
compared to the 430 with the additional $1500 for WAAS. Garmin's
manufacturing expertise is small lots of diverse products, if the market
wants both the 430 and 480, then both will be availible.

Mike
MU-2

[N2SX]

I agree with you, mike. I would add, though, that Garmin paid for UPS
mostly to get rid of their primary competition. Even if they can the
480, the buy was probably worth it to their bottom line in the long
run. It is just hard for me to imagine the same company putting out
two essentially identical products, with the additional production
costs that entails. But all this is just very uneducated speculation,
so I'll shut up on the topic now. Just wondered what others thought.
If you doubt my information, please give Electronic Flight a call at
866-234-2359 and ask them about it.

Elton
N2SX

[Mike Rapoport]

"N2SX" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I agree with you, mike. I would add, though, that Garmin paid for UPS
> mostly to get rid of their primary competition. Even if they can the
> 480, the buy was probably worth it to their bottom line in the long
> run. It is just hard for me to imagine the same company putting out
> two essentially identical products, with the additional production
> costs that entails. But all this is just very uneducated speculation,
> so I'll shut up on the topic now. Just wondered what others thought.
> If you doubt my information, please give Electronic Flight a call at
> 866-234-2359 and ask them about it.
>
> Elton
> N2SX
>

Actually UPS AT wasn't a meaningful competitor, they didn't make money and
revenue was about $40MM a year (from memory). They probably would never
have been since they were owned by a company focused on package delivery.
The big reasons for buying UPS was to aquire a lot of engineers with
avionics certification experience to get G1000 to the market and to aquire
the ADS-B intellectual property.

There really isn't much additional cost to put out two products once the
board assembly is programmed and debugged All this stuff is low volume
anyway. Garmin has kept products in production much longer than planned
when the market wanted them. An example is the GPS12 series. If you look
at Garmin's whole product line (automotive, recreation, marine ect) you will
find many niche products.

I don't doubt that the guy at Electronic Flight said what you say he said, I
just have reason to believe differently.

Mike
MU-2

[Dave Butler]

N2SX wrote:
> I know this has been discussed and discussed here, but I wanted to
> share some information that I just received from the company that
> produces a few excellent training computer programs for avionics.
>
> Some background - I flew a cherokee 180 with a 430 for about 5 years.
> This year I moved to a Lance and put in the cnx-80 and mx-20. I have
> flown the heck out of that plane this year, so I have a good bit of
> flying time with both the 430 and cnx-80 (it is in the shop now getting
> "upgraded" to a 480).
>
> I purchased the cnx-80 over a 430 (which I was very familiar with) for
> the same reasons that have been expressed here before - airways,
> vertical appraoch guidance, faster processer (and thus better response
> time), etc. Being used to the 430, I did have some transition time
> getting used to the cnx-80, but I am as, if not more, comfortable with
> the new box as I was with the 430. I think the "overkill" or too
> complex arguments have been a bit overstated.
>
> Now my point, I have used the autopilot and lightning educational
> software from Electronic Flight Solutions. I thought I knew everything
> about those systems, but was surprised by how much I learned. So I
> inquired about a 480 trainer. I was told that there were no plans for
> that b/c the expectation was that the 480 would not be around much
> longer. His argument was that once the $5,000 waas upgrade for the
> 430/530 is released next year, garmin would likely dump the 480.
>
> He sais the 480 was just too complicated. As I indicated, I strongly
> disagree with that. What do you think? What are the implications for us
> cnx-80 owners with such a short-lived product?

What do I think? I think since Electronic Solutions offers training material for
the 430 and not the 480, it is in their interest to promote the impression that
the 480 won't be around much longer.

Unless you work for Garmin, it's all speculation.