Another expensive annual this year

[[email protected]]

Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
(engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
into our pockets again.

Here is the list

1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
and may even out the initial cost in the long run.

2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
owner-assisted manual).

3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
this ourselves again).

4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.

5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
for the nose bowl job.

6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.

The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
$10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.

http://www.ifrwest.com/
http://www.dsflight.com/about.html

No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
but those trips ain't cheap either.
Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)

Hai Longworth
N30703

[Colin W Kingsbury]

> wrote in message
oups.com...

> years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
> trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
> need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
> hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
> tickets.

Unfortunately your typical GA autopilot will be the first thing to quit in
turbulence. Still the single best IFR accessory you can have though.

-cwk.

[Roy Smith]

In article et>,
"Colin W Kingsbury" > wrote:

> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
> > years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
> > trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
> > need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
> > hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
> > tickets.
>
> Unfortunately your typical GA autopilot will be the first thing to quit in
> turbulence. Still the single best IFR accessory you can have though.

I agree. Even a simple one which can do nothing more than hold heading
is extremely useful. Most planes will do a pretty good job of holding
altitude on their own (if you get the trim set right), but will slowly
turn one way or the other if you let go of the controls for more than a
few seconds.

Having something that can hold heading means you can re-fold a chart,
dig out an approach plate. or copy down a clearance without wandering
all over the sky. It also means you can think about big-picture stuff
like evaluating a decaying weather situation or estimate the effect of a
re-route on your fuel state.

[Jay Honeck]

> it cost over $500 to weigh the plane

$500 to weigh your plane? Yikes!

You need to cultivate a relationship with your local EAA chapter.

Those guys usually have scales, which they will usually part with for a few
hours in exchange for a reasonable "fee".

Like a case of good beer, or a fine bottle of Scotch... ;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
> (engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
> replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
> we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
> into our pockets again.
>
> Here is the list
>
> 1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
> separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
> original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
> spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
> get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
> soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
> and may even out the initial cost in the long run.
>
> 2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
> to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
> much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
> to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
> cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
> owner-assisted manual).
>
> 3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
> replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
> ($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
> this ourselves again).
>
> 4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
> cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.
>
> 5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
> sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
> the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
> them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
> for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
> for the nose bowl job.
>
> 6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
> tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
> wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
> Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
> anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
> weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
> insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
> it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
> balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
> be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
> I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.
>
> The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
> $10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
> vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
> hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
> years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
> trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
> need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
> hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
> tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
> Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
> IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.
>
> http://www.ifrwest.com/
> http://www.dsflight.com/about.html
>
> No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
> we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
> but those trips ain't cheap either.
> Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)
>
> Hai Longworth
> N30703


I don't see an annual inspection anywhere in the list.

[G.R. Patterson III]

" wrote:
>
> I was surprised to learn that
> it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
> balancing.

It cost me $60 to have my Cessna weighed about 11 years ago.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[[email protected]]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> I don't see an annual inspection anywhere in the list.

Dave,
We don't expect the annual inspection by itself cost more than $500
or so with an owner-assist annual. We pretty much had all the
airworthy stuffs taken care off at last annual and throughout the year
(for example, we found a cracked muffler pipe while opening the cowling
to rotate the spark plugs last month and had our AP replaced it).


Jay,
Yep, we did not know our AP had a guy flown in from LI to do the
weighing. He charged something like $150 just for the travelling cost!
If we had known that, we would have checked around for a more
reasonable price.

[plasticguy]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:bRGGd.10570$IV5.417@attbi_s54...
>> it cost over $500 to weigh the plane
>
> $500 to weigh your plane? Yikes!
>
> You need to cultivate a relationship with your local EAA chapter.
>
> Those guys usually have scales, which they will usually part with for a
> few hours in exchange for a reasonable "fee".
>
> Like a case of good beer, or a fine bottle of Scotch... ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"


Hi Jay...
Our chapter BOUGHT NEW DIGITAL SCALES last year
and spent 1200 bucks or so on them. 4 pad unit for
race cars, nice stuff. I can't believe the prices folks get to do this.

Scott.

[Maule Driver]

It all sounds like good stuff but it's more of a set of small upgrades
than an annual.

The wet pump thing is something I considered. I did get a Precise
Flight backup system (not pump). Consider that I got 900 hours out of
my dry pump before a precautionary replace with a rebuilt. My thinking
is that getting a wet pump and a PF backup system is like belt and
suspenders - a very good thing given the possible consequences. But
having a dry pump and a PF backup is essentially the same thing. The
only failure I've had in my vac system was the AI - nothing that vac
backup can do anything about. Perhaps any delta between a dry and wet
system would be better spent towards an electric AI.

What kind of a/c do you own?

wrote:
> Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
> (engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
> replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
> we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
> into our pockets again.
>
> Here is the list
>
> 1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
> separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
> original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
> spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
> get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
> soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
> and may even out the initial cost in the long run.
>
> 2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
> to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
> much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
> to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
> cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
> owner-assisted manual).
>
> 3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
> replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
> ($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
> this ourselves again).
>
> 4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
> cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.
>
> 5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
> sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
> the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
> them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
> for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
> for the nose bowl job.
>
> 6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
> tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
> wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
> Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
> anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
> weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
> insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
> it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
> balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
> be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
> I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.
>
> The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
> $10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
> vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
> hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
> years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
> trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
> need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
> hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
> tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
> Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
> IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.
>
> http://www.ifrwest.com/
> http://www.dsflight.com/about.html
>
> No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
> we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
> but those trips ain't cheap either.
> Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)
>
> Hai Longworth
> N30703
>

[[email protected]]

Maule Driver wrote:
> It all sounds like good stuff but it's more of a set of small
upgrades
> than an annual.
MD,

The most likely real annual job is the vaccum pump replacement. With
the expected life of dry pump being 500hrs and the fact that they
sometimes die without any advanced warning steered us toward the
2000hrs-life wet pump instead of getting a new dry pump + the Precise
Flight backup system.

You are right that these are more of a set of upgrades than what
needed for an annual but an annual downtime is a good opportunity to
'upgrade' and fix little things which are not exactly airworthiness
issue but can give us a peace of mind such as adding shoulder harnesses
to the backseat, going with a more reliable pump etc..

When we first looking into buying a plane two years ago, we never
thought of having to continue pumping greenbacks to it. It's almost
like an addiction, you keep having the urge to feed the habit ;-) I had
thought of delaying the paint job until next year so that we could
spend on the IFR trips. Last weekend in seeing little flakes of paint
came off while we were cleaning snow and ice of the poor Cardinal, I
swore that I could hear our pet bird crying "I need a new plumage"!
Hai Longworth

[Aaron Coolidge]

> wrote:
: The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
: $10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
: vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
: hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
: years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am

Around here (Southeastern MA) people are taking their airplanes to
Arkansas for paint jobs. I can find the company if you're interested.
They charged $5500 for an Archer. 2 years and many IFR hours later it
still looks great; no, it still looks like it was painted yesterday.
It's kept outside, of course. This year, the Swift and a Cherokee 140
are going to the same shop.

BTW, I do know what you mean about adding stuff. Now, I'm thinking:
Hmm, add a 2nd generation stormscope? No panel space left. But, if I
get an HSI that would free up a 3.5" hole. Hmm, $12k into my $60k plane?
Decisions, decisions....
--
Aaron Coolidge (N9376J)

[Chris]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
> Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
> IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.
>
> http://www.ifrwest.com/
> http://www.dsflight.com/about.html
>
> No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
> we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
> but those trips ain't cheap either.
> Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)
>
> Hai Longworth
> N30703
>

I did the West Coast Trip last September. It was brilliant and I passed the
checkride with nothing to redo. Best $$ I spent in a long time.

[Jon A.]

Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!

On 16 Jan 2005 19:12:31 -0800, "
> wrote:

>Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
>(engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
>replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
>we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
>into our pockets again.
>
>Here is the list
>
>1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
>separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
>original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
>spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
>get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
>soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
>and may even out the initial cost in the long run.
>
>2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
>to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
>much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
>to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
>cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
>owner-assisted manual).
>
>3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
>replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
>($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
>this ourselves again).
>
>4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
>cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.
>
>5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
>sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
>the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
>them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
>for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
>for the nose bowl job.
>
>6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
>tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
>wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
>Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
>anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
>weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
>insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
>it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
>balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
>be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
>I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.
>
>The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
>$10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
>vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
>hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
>years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
>trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
>need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
>hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
>tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
>Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
>IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.
>
>http://www.ifrwest.com/
>http://www.dsflight.com/about.html
>
>No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
>we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
>but those trips ain't cheap either.
>Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)
>
>Hai Longworth
>N30703

[Denny]

Depends on what level of repair you want to maintain the airplane at...
My annual expenses this year with two major AD's being due, plus a new
heater and a new carburetor on one engine cost approximately one third
of the market value of the airplane... But, I cannot buy a similar
aircraft that is as well maintained mechanically and electrically so I
made the decision to IRAN rather than trade up... If you think that
aircraft are expensive to keep up and/or upgrade, try a boat in the 40
to 50 foot range...

denny

[Mike Rapoport]

No he isn't. Almost all the stuff listed is upgrades and is unrelated to
the annual.

Mike
MU-2


"Jon A." > wrote in message
...
> Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
> in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
> your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!
>
> On 16 Jan 2005 19:12:31 -0800, "
> > wrote:
>
>>Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
>>(engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
>>replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
>>we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
>>into our pockets again.
>>
>>Here is the list
>>
>>1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
>>separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
>>original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
>>spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
>>get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
>>soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
>>and may even out the initial cost in the long run.
>>
>>2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
>>to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
>>much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
>>to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
>>cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
>>owner-assisted manual).
>>
>>3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
>>replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
>>($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
>>this ourselves again).
>>
>>4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
>>cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.
>>
>>5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
>>sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
>>the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
>>them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
>>for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
>>for the nose bowl job.
>>
>>6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
>>tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
>>wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
>>Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
>>anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
>>weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
>>insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
>>it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
>>balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
>>be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
>>I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.
>>
>>The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
>>$10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
>>vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
>>hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
>>years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
>>trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
>>need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
>>hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
>>tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
>>Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
>>IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.
>>
>>http://www.ifrwest.com/
>>http://www.dsflight.com/about.html
>>
>>No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
>>we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
>>but those trips ain't cheap either.
>>Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)
>>
>>Hai Longworth
>>N30703
>

[Maule Driver]

Welcome to ownership. If my experience is any indication, after pouring
money into it for a few year to get it the way you want it, the money
flow will lessen except for the inevitable periodic
failures/replacements (e.g. exhaust system).

re the pump; a wet pump without backup still puts you in a life
threatening situation if it happens while in IMC. Assuming you maintain
your partial panel skills, there is plenty of evidence that the failure
to recognize the problem fast enough can be deadly. Clearly the wet
pump reduces the chances but it does nothing to mitigate the risk if it
does happen. The Precise Flight setup does give you that though it is
not perfect. I would suggest that if you do decide to rely on one pump
without backup, you should install a vacummn failure light (perhaps that
is already a Cardinal feature?). That gives you what is arguably the
most important component of the PF system, a warning of the failure. If
you know it failed, you can immediately respond and perhaps avoid the
main problem in such a failure, that is, detecting it quickly.

Also, from a cost perspective, if you don't plan to fly in actual this
year, then don't bother with the pump work. But it sounds like if you
don't do the pump work, then you have the funds to get your IFR. Catch-22

wrote:
> Maule Driver wrote:
>
>>It all sounds like good stuff but it's more of a set of small
>
> upgrades
>
>>than an annual.
>
> MD,
>
> The most likely real annual job is the vaccum pump replacement. With
> the expected life of dry pump being 500hrs and the fact that they
> sometimes die without any advanced warning steered us toward the
> 2000hrs-life wet pump instead of getting a new dry pump + the Precise
> Flight backup system.
>
> You are right that these are more of a set of upgrades than what
> needed for an annual but an annual downtime is a good opportunity to
> 'upgrade' and fix little things which are not exactly airworthiness
> issue but can give us a peace of mind such as adding shoulder harnesses
> to the backseat, going with a more reliable pump etc..
>
> When we first looking into buying a plane two years ago, we never
> thought of having to continue pumping greenbacks to it. It's almost
> like an addiction, you keep having the urge to feed the habit ;-) I had
> thought of delaying the paint job until next year so that we could
> spend on the IFR trips. Last weekend in seeing little flakes of paint
> came off while we were cleaning snow and ice of the poor Cardinal, I
> swore that I could hear our pet bird crying "I need a new plumage"!
> Hai Longworth
>

[RST Engineering]

Or a blonde in the 34C to 36D range...

Jim


.... If you think that
> aircraft are expensive to keep up and/or upgrade, try a boat in the 40
> to 50 foot range...

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Jon A." wrote:
>
> Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
> in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
> your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!

How do you know? He hasn't said a word in there about how much the annual
inspection costs.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[[email protected]]

RST Engineering wrote:
> Or a blonde in the 34C to 36D range...
>
> Jim
>
Jim,
The Cardinal W&B shows that we can only carry oursevles and our
diving gear. There is no room for a blonde in 34C to 36D range.
Besides, I have no frigging idea what to do with the blonde of that
type ;-)

Hai

[[email protected]]

Jon,
Our AP has been pretty reasonable. I believe his rate is something
like $400-$500 for the typical owner-assisted annual. We believe he
made a mistake in arranging for the plane-weighing guy for us without
checking the cost or telling us what it would have cost. We certainly
made him aware of our shocked reaction to the bill.

We do belong to the Cardinal Flyers club and had learned quite a bit
from the club. We redid the interior oursevles last year including
adding thermal/sound insulation (our AP let us use his hangar last
winter during the annual). He also let us assisted with all the
tasks. We have learned a great deal about airplane maintenance/repairs
in the last year from him.

Hai

[Roger]

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 04:06:31 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> it cost over $500 to weigh the plane
>
>$500 to weigh your plane? Yikes!
>
>You need to cultivate a relationship with your local EAA chapter.
>
>Those guys usually have scales, which they will usually part with for a few
>hours in exchange for a reasonable "fee".
>
>Like a case of good beer, or a fine bottle of Scotch... ;-)
Of course if it's a spam can you need some one qualified to sign off
the weighing.

Weighing is no trivial matter either.
I had mine done and they did it dry and loaded giving me CG figures
for each fuel tank.

That meant draining everything and then filling everything.
Back then it was just under $300.

Now I have a new, current, legal, weight and balance certificate.

Some where along the line, even with all the paper work the old girl
had gained about 60#. probably dirt and grease inside the belly.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jon A.]

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:57:16 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
> wrote:

>No he isn't. Almost all the stuff listed is upgrades and is unrelated to
>the annual.
>
>Mike
>MU-2
>
Really? $2500 for a vacuum pump? $1K for glass? $1K for tips, $1K
for nose paint? $500 to weigh the plane? Where do you shop? Or are
you on the Boat & MB payment end?
>
>"Jon A." > wrote in message
...
>> Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
>> in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
>> your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!
>>
>> On 16 Jan 2005 19:12:31 -0800, "
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
>>>(engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
>>>replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
>>>we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
>>>into our pockets again.
>>>
>>>Here is the list
>>>
>>>1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
>>>separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
>>>original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
>>>spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
>>>get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
>>>soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
>>>and may even out the initial cost in the long run.
>>>
>>>2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
>>>to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
>>>much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
>>>to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
>>>cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
>>>owner-assisted manual).
>>>
>>>3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
>>>replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
>>>($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
>>>this ourselves again).
>>>
>>>4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
>>>cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.
>>>
>>>5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
>>>sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
>>>the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
>>>them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
>>>for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
>>>for the nose bowl job.
>>>
>>>6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
>>>tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
>>>wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
>>>Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
>>>anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
>>>weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
>>>insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
>>>it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
>>>balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
>>>be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
>>>I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.
>>>
>>>The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
>>>$10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
>>>vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
>>>hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
>>>years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
>>>trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
>>>need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
>>>hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
>>>tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
>>>Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
>>>IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.
>>>
>>>http://www.ifrwest.com/
>>>http://www.dsflight.com/about.html
>>>
>>>No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
>>>we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
>>>but those trips ain't cheap either.
>>>Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)
>>>
>>>Hai Longworth
>>>N30703
>>
>

[Jon A.]

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:12:00 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>"Jon A." wrote:
>>
>> Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
>> in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
>> your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!
>
>How do you know? He hasn't said a word in there about how much the annual
>inspection costs.
>
Easy, I can read & understand. The numbers he quoted are absurd.

>George Patterson
> The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Jon A.]

If you're happy, then I'm happy. For comparison my A&P w/IA's price
for an owner assisted annual (and this is strictly by the Beech
published checklist because I do it) is $280. You do the math.

On 18 Jan 2005 08:41:56 -0800, "
> wrote:

>Jon,
>Our AP has been pretty reasonable. I believe his rate is something
>like $400-$500 for the typical owner-assisted annual. We believe he
>made a mistake in arranging for the plane-weighing guy for us without
>checking the cost or telling us what it would have cost. We certainly
>made him aware of our shocked reaction to the bill.
>
>We do belong to the Cardinal Flyers club and had learned quite a bit
>from the club. We redid the interior oursevles last year including
>adding thermal/sound insulation (our AP let us use his hangar last
>winter during the annual). He also let us assisted with all the
>tasks. We have learned a great deal about airplane maintenance/repairs
>in the last year from him.
>
>Hai

[[email protected]]

Jon,
We live in NY (just north of the city). Everything around here seems
to be more expensive than in many other parts of the country. I do try
to shop around online but some of the items are pretty much
single-source such as the wet pump for Cardinal. Only Airwolf has it
for close to $2K. The Air/Oil separator is $500. The photo window
from LPAero plastics is $500/window. There are only two sources for
fiberglass wingtips (Stene and Globe fiberglass) and none could be
found for the nose bowl. If we have a more common plane such as C172,
there would be more sources for parts but the Cardinal is our choice.
All the paint shops within 200nm pretty much quote the same price
range for painting. I may check out the Arkansas paint shop then
weighing the pros and cons of saving some money vs. the logistic of
getting the plane down there, back etc. esp if there are problems.
Regarding annual cost, the AP rates around here are pretty much the
same range ~ $70/hr. The current AP is one of the very few who would
allow owner-assisted annual and his cost seems to be more reasonable.

[Mike Rapoport]

How many wet vacuume pumps have you had installed? The pump alone is $1850
with the separator listed at $495 at Aircraft Spruce. Add fittings and
hoses to that.. He said that the tips and stab tip were $1000 for the
parts. It is pretty clear that you have never had any of this stuff done.

Mike
MU-2


"Jon A." > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:57:16 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
> > wrote:
>
>>No he isn't. Almost all the stuff listed is upgrades and is unrelated to
>>the annual.
>>
>>Mike
>>MU-2
>>
> Really? $2500 for a vacuum pump? $1K for glass? $1K for tips, $1K
> for nose paint? $500 to weigh the plane? Where do you shop? Or are
> you on the Boat & MB payment end?
>>
>>"Jon A." > wrote in message
...
>>> Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
>>> in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
>>> your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!
>>>
>>> On 16 Jan 2005 19:12:31 -0800, "
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
>>>>(engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
>>>>replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
>>>>we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
>>>>into our pockets again.
>>>>
>>>>Here is the list
>>>>
>>>>1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
>>>>separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
>>>>original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
>>>>spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
>>>>get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
>>>>soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
>>>>and may even out the initial cost in the long run.
>>>>
>>>>2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
>>>>to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
>>>>much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
>>>>to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
>>>>cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
>>>>owner-assisted manual).
>>>>
>>>>3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
>>>>replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
>>>>($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
>>>>this ourselves again).
>>>>
>>>>4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
>>>>cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.
>>>>
>>>>5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
>>>>sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
>>>>the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
>>>>them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
>>>>for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
>>>>for the nose bowl job.
>>>>
>>>>6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
>>>>tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
>>>>wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
>>>>Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
>>>>anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
>>>>weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
>>>>insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
>>>>it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
>>>>balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
>>>>be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
>>>>I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.
>>>>
>>>>The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
>>>>$10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
>>>>vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
>>>>hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
>>>>years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
>>>>trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
>>>>need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
>>>>hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
>>>>tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
>>>>Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
>>>>IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.ifrwest.com/
>>>>http://www.dsflight.com/about.html
>>>>
>>>>No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
>>>>we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
>>>>but those trips ain't cheap either.
>>>>Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)
>>>>
>>>>Hai Longworth
>>>>N30703
>>>
>>
>

[Jon A.]

Maybe you need to look a little closer at the options. Okay, I missed
the stab tips part, but if you can't get these for less than 1K,
you're a sissy!

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:21:38 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
> wrote:

>How many wet vacuume pumps have you had installed? The pump alone is $1850
>with the separator listed at $495 at Aircraft Spruce. Add fittings and
>hoses to that.. He said that the tips and stab tip were $1000 for the
>parts. It is pretty clear that you have never had any of this stuff done.
>
>Mike
>MU-2
>
>
>"Jon A." > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:57:16 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>No he isn't. Almost all the stuff listed is upgrades and is unrelated to
>>>the annual.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>MU-2
>>>
>> Really? $2500 for a vacuum pump? $1K for glass? $1K for tips, $1K
>> for nose paint? $500 to weigh the plane? Where do you shop? Or are
>> you on the Boat & MB payment end?
>>>
>>>"Jon A." > wrote in message
...
>>>> Find someone else to do your annuals. Make sure they don't have kids
>>>> in college or boat or Mercedes Benz payments. Join the type club for
>>>> your aircraft. You're simply paying too friggin' much!
>>>>
>>>> On 16 Jan 2005 19:12:31 -0800, "
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Our first annual last year increased our plane ownership cost by 50%
>>>>>(engine overhaul, prop governor overhaul + few other big ticket
>>>>>replacement parts + labor). When Rick and I tallied up all the things
>>>>>we want our AP to do this year, it looked like we have to reach deep
>>>>>into our pockets again.
>>>>>
>>>>>Here is the list
>>>>>
>>>>>1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
>>>>>separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!). Our
>>>>>original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
>>>>>spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
>>>>>get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
>>>>>soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser choice
>>>>>and may even out the initial cost in the long run.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. Replace all side windows and the back window. The windshield seems
>>>>>to be in good shape although our AP thinks that we will not like it as
>>>>>much once the other windows are replaced! Of course, we will also want
>>>>>to use the opportunity to add a photo window. This will most likely
>>>>>cost at least $1K not including labor (luckily our AP allows
>>>>>owner-assisted manual).
>>>>>
>>>>>3. Replace the passenger seatbelt with shoulder harness/seatbelt. We
>>>>>replaced the pilot/copilot belts last year. The cost will be reasonable
>>>>>($250 or something) but probably will take a bit of labor (will try to
>>>>>this ourselves again).
>>>>>
>>>>>4. Install a cigarette lighter with multiple plugs. Probably will not
>>>>>cost much but this is something we must ask our AP to do.
>>>>>
>>>>>5. Replace the two wingtips and one stabilator tip: ~ $1K in part. Not
>>>>>sure about labor. We can either do this now during the annual or let
>>>>>the paint shop do it. The same goes with the nose bowls. Our AP patched
>>>>>them up a bit last year but more extensive restoration will be required
>>>>>for the new paint job. One of the paint shops gave an estimate of $1K
>>>>>for the nose bowl job.
>>>>>
>>>>>6. Miscellaneous stuffs: Attempt to reinstall the door bracket. Our AP
>>>>>tried it once but a previous repair attempt left some rivets in the
>>>>>wrong place so he had to pop the new bracket out.
>>>>>Pitot/Static/Transponder check: just hope that we don't have to replace
>>>>>anything else! Not sure of the cost. Last summer, Rick got the plane
>>>>>weighed (after we replaced some avionics and added thermal/sound
>>>>>insulation) and had the prop rebalanced. I was surprised to learn that
>>>>>it cost over $500 to weigh the plane but less than $200 for prop
>>>>>balancing. Replace the throttle control (again, just hope that it would
>>>>>be a minor job with minimum cost). Our annual is scheduled for Feb 15.
>>>>>I'm pretty sure we will think of few more items by then.
>>>>>
>>>>>The list above and the paint job (current estimates ranging from
>>>>>$10-$12K) will pretty much preclude us from taking any expensive
>>>>>vacations this year. There go most of our dive trips this year. Just
>>>>>hope that my 92 Honda Accord with over 230K miles will last few more
>>>>>years. A Garmin 430 is most likely on the list for next year. I am
>>>>>trying to convince Rick that with two pilots in the family, we don't
>>>>>need 'no stinking autopilot' ;-). Not sure whether this argument will
>>>>>hold when we face turbulent in IMC after getting our instrument
>>>>>tickets. Speaking of IFR training, I had thought of doing either a West
>>>>>Coast Adventures Trip with Field Morey or an East Coast
>>>>>IFR Trip with Dough Stewart.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.ifrwest.com/
>>>>>http://www.dsflight.com/about.html
>>>>>
>>>>>No doubt that either one will be a tremendous learning experience and
>>>>>we will be much better pilots (and hopefully with instrument ratings)
>>>>>but those trips ain't cheap either.
>>>>>Maybe I should buy a lottery ticket ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Hai Longworth
>>>>>N30703
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

[[email protected]]

Jon A. wrote:
> Maybe you need to look a little closer at the options. Okay, I
missed
> the stab tips part, but if you can't get these for less than 1K,
> you're a sissy!
Jon,
Do you know of any other sources for fiberglass tips? Stene Aviation
has the C177B wingtips at $350 a piece and the stab tips at $150 a
piece ($350 + $150 then x2 = $1K). Globe has the wintips a bit cheaper
at $300 a piece but the stab tip pair is $400 so this comes out to be
just under $1K. Have not been able to locate any other sources. Last
I checked, the websites of those places did not have a gender-specific
price list ;-)
Hai

[Michael]

Mike Rapoport wrote:
> How many wet vacuume pumps have you had installed? The pump alone is
$1850
> with the separator listed at $495 at Aircraft Spruce. Add fittings
and
> hoses to that.. He said that the tips and stab tip were $1000 for
the
> parts. It is pretty clear that you have never had any of this stuff
done.

No, what's clear is that you have no real idea of how maintenance works
in the real world of light piston airplanes.

Who in the world would buy a new wet pump and separator from Aircraft
Spruce? Certainly nobody I know. Those things last essentially
forever, there were tons of them manufactured decades ago, and they're
everywhere. You can have one overhauled for much less than the cost of
a new dry pump, and you get old ones from any salvage yard. Any
mechanic worth his salt knows how to do this. The mechanic who just
orders new from Aircraft Spruce is going to cost you a lot of money.
Michael

[G.R. Patterson III]

Michael wrote:
>
> You can have one overhauled for much less than the cost of
> a new dry pump, and you get old ones from any salvage yard.

And you get the STC to install it on a Cessna 177 where?

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Mike Rapoport]

"Michael" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>> How many wet vacuume pumps have you had installed? The pump alone is
> $1850
>> with the separator listed at $495 at Aircraft Spruce. Add fittings
> and
>> hoses to that.. He said that the tips and stab tip were $1000 for
> the
>> parts. It is pretty clear that you have never had any of this stuff
> done.
>
> No, what's clear is that you have no real idea of how maintenance works
> in the real world of light piston airplanes.
>
> Who in the world would buy a new wet pump and separator from Aircraft
> Spruce? Certainly nobody I know. Those things last essentially
> forever, there were tons of them manufactured decades ago, and they're
> everywhere. You can have one overhauled for much less than the cost of
> a new dry pump, and you get old ones from any salvage yard. Any
> mechanic worth his salt knows how to do this. The mechanic who just
> orders new from Aircraft Spruce is going to cost you a lot of money.
> Michael
>

I guess the guys that are making the new ones must be a bunch of idiots not
to know this.

Mike
MU-2

[[email protected]]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:
> Michael wrote:
> >
> > You can have one overhauled for much less than the cost of
> > a new dry pump, and you get old ones from any salvage yard.
>
> And you get the STC to install it on a Cessna 177 where?
>

George,
As far as I know, only Airwolf wetpump has STC to install it on C177
(and only recently - a fellow Cardinal owner ordered the wetpump late
last year and had to wait few months for the official paperwork). We
contacted M20 about their wetpump but it has not been approved for C177
yet and they can not tell us how long it will take or how much it will
cost.
I honestly don't believe that a new wetpump could cost significantly
more than a rebuilt pump and most likely very little if any
modifications are required for the pump to be used in similar aircraft
type. The first company who has the wetpump STC for certain aircraft
pretty much a monopoly until there are more competitors.
We were also checking into replacing the cowling fasteners to
1/4-turn type (we change oil every 25hrs and fly at least 150hrs/yr),
and were appalled to learn that the STC'ed Skybolt SS conversion kit
cost over $500 for C177!!
Thanks.
--------------------------------------------

To all who had kindly replied/participated in this thread:

We are new to plane ownership (a bit less than 2 years) and have a
lot to learn. I posted our upgrade plan for this annual to get
feedbacks not only on the soundness of the plan but also for
information for better suppliers/prices. Thank you for your advices,
symphaties and information.

Hai Longworth

[G.R. Patterson III]

" wrote:
>
> As far as I know, only Airwolf wetpump has STC to install it on C177

I thought that might be the case.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Jon A.]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:38:55 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
> wrote:

>
>> Who in the world would buy a new wet pump and separator from Aircraft
>> Spruce? Certainly nobody I know. Those things last essentially
>> forever, there were tons of them manufactured decades ago, and they're
>> everywhere. You can have one overhauled for much less than the cost of
>> a new dry pump, and you get old ones from any salvage yard. Any
>> mechanic worth his salt knows how to do this. The mechanic who just
>> orders new from Aircraft Spruce is going to cost you a lot of money.
>> Michael
>>
>
>I guess the guys that are making the new ones must be a bunch of idiots not
>to know this.
>
>Mike
>MU-2
>
No, they're very smart. They realize there are plenty of Rapoports
out there

[RST Engineering]

The what? The where?

Oh, that was on there when I bought the airplane ten years ago...

Jim



"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Michael wrote:
>>
>> You can have one overhauled for much less than the cost of
>> a new dry pump, and you get old ones from any salvage yard.
>
> And you get the STC to install it on a Cessna 177 where?
>
> George Patterson
> The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[M]

wrote:

> 1. Replace the dry vacuum pump with an Airwolf wet pump + Air/oil
> separator(~$2500 not including labor - our AP estimated 1-2 days!).
Our
> original plan was to get a new dry pump (the existing one has been
> spewing some carbon) + Precise Flight backup pump. Since we intend to
> get instrument rating and may attempt IFR traveling (probably mostly
> soft IFR), we think that the wet vacuum option would be a wiser
choice
> and may even out the initial cost in the long run.
>

I consider a second electric AI to be a superior backup than a standby
vacuum if you have the panel space for it. The electric AI price has
come down to a more reasonable (still expensive) level.

[Mike Rapoport]

"Jon A." > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:38:55 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>> Who in the world would buy a new wet pump and separator from Aircraft
>>> Spruce? Certainly nobody I know. Those things last essentially
>>> forever, there were tons of them manufactured decades ago, and they're
>>> everywhere. You can have one overhauled for much less than the cost of
>>> a new dry pump, and you get old ones from any salvage yard. Any
>>> mechanic worth his salt knows how to do this. The mechanic who just
>>> orders new from Aircraft Spruce is going to cost you a lot of money.
>>> Michael
>>>
>>
>>I guess the guys that are making the new ones must be a bunch of idiots
>>not
>>to know this.
>>
>>Mike
>>MU-2
>>
> No, they're very smart. They realize there are plenty of Rapoports
> out there
>

A glance at any phonebook contradicts this statement. Personally, I would
install electric instruments with dual alternators and get rid of the vacuum
pump, hoses, filter and instruments.

Mike
MU-2

[[email protected]]

Mike,
My google search of electric AI showed reliability problem with
'affordable' units such as what stated by Paul Bertorelli below:
===================================
I have on my answering machine here a message from a reader who bought
five
R.C. Allen electric AIs for a fleet of training/charter aircraft.


Four failed within 100 hours of use. Numerous other reports of
premature
failure, too.


That's not to say no one gets good service from these. But they seem
problematical.


No reported problems with the AIM units from BFG. They're twice as
expensive, however.


Paul Bertorelli
Aviation Consumer


http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/msg/b4807fcbe6290fab?dmode=source

[G.R. Patterson III]

RST Engineering wrote:
>
> The what? The where?
>
> Oh, that was on there when I bought the airplane ten years ago...

In your case, that might work (though Jay Honeck has a story about strobes that
might make you hesitate), but Hai is going to have to find an A&P willing to
risk his ticket to do this installation without paperwork. Ain't gonna happen in
this neck of the woods.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Jon A.]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:19:56 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
> wrote:

>
>"Jon A." > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 18:38:55 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Who in the world would buy a new wet pump and separator from Aircraft
>>>> Spruce? Certainly nobody I know. Those things last essentially
>>>> forever, there were tons of them manufactured decades ago, and they're
>>>> everywhere. You can have one overhauled for much less than the cost of
>>>> a new dry pump, and you get old ones from any salvage yard. Any
>>>> mechanic worth his salt knows how to do this. The mechanic who just
>>>> orders new from Aircraft Spruce is going to cost you a lot of money.
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>
>>>I guess the guys that are making the new ones must be a bunch of idiots
>>>not
>>>to know this.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>MU-2
>>>
>> No, they're very smart. They realize there are plenty of Rapoports
>> out there
>>
>
>A glance at any phonebook contradicts this statement. Personally, I would
>install electric instruments with dual alternators and get rid of the vacuum
>pump, hoses, filter and instruments.
>
>Mike
>MU-2

FINALLY, we agree!

[Fly]

>
> Hi Jay...
> Our chapter BOUGHT NEW DIGITAL SCALES last year
> and spent 1200 bucks or so on them. 4 pad unit for
> race cars, nice stuff. I can't believe the prices folks get to do this.
>
> Scott.
>

Yikes! $500 is too much. I'd charge $150-$200 plus travel.

And for the EAA guys and Scott above.......
..... well thats great that they BOUGHT NEW DIGITAL SCALES.
I imagine those are the little wheel weighers about 12 inches square and
have a capacity of maybe 1000-1500 pounds. Thats ok for light homebuilts
and ultralights, C152 and Pa140 and such. Fine for you Saturday morning
hobbiests.

But if you consider providing a professional weighing service, you need a
capacity up to 30,000 lbs for each Pad and/or each jackpoint to be capable
of weighing most aircraft used in business.

Shop around for four 30K lb pads and let us know the deals you find.

You also need an annual certified calibration which will cost $300-$400.
Also you might want the capability to generate a nice looking weighing
report on site, and the way I do that is with a laptop and portable printer.
A hand scribbled sheet doesn't look good in a G-IV manual.
There are some other extras that are handy to have, like a set of fuel
hydormeters to measure specific gravity of onboard fuel.
Nitrogen setup to re-adjust gear struts after leveling....... so on.

Btw, someday try rolling a big tire aircraft like a T-6 or T28 up on those
NEW DIGITAL SCALES.

I can certainly believe the prices some folks get to do this!

Kent Felkins
Tulsa Oklahoma

[Jon A.]

Hey Kent, I just painted my prop and may need to come up to see you.
I'll let you know.

BTW, Kent is one of the best prop balance guys in this neck of the
woods. He's also a paid Tulsa fireman, IIRC.

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:01:51 -0600, "Fly" > wrote:

>
>>
>> Hi Jay...
>> Our chapter BOUGHT NEW DIGITAL SCALES last year
>> and spent 1200 bucks or so on them. 4 pad unit for
>> race cars, nice stuff. I can't believe the prices folks get to do this.
>>
>> Scott.
>>
>
>Yikes! $500 is too much. I'd charge $150-$200 plus travel.
>
>And for the EAA guys and Scott above.......
>.... well thats great that they BOUGHT NEW DIGITAL SCALES.
>I imagine those are the little wheel weighers about 12 inches square and
>have a capacity of maybe 1000-1500 pounds. Thats ok for light homebuilts
>and ultralights, C152 and Pa140 and such. Fine for you Saturday morning
>hobbiests.
>
>But if you consider providing a professional weighing service, you need a
>capacity up to 30,000 lbs for each Pad and/or each jackpoint to be capable
>of weighing most aircraft used in business.
>
> Shop around for four 30K lb pads and let us know the deals you find.
>
>You also need an annual certified calibration which will cost $300-$400.
> Also you might want the capability to generate a nice looking weighing
>report on site, and the way I do that is with a laptop and portable printer.
>A hand scribbled sheet doesn't look good in a G-IV manual.
>There are some other extras that are handy to have, like a set of fuel
>hydormeters to measure specific gravity of onboard fuel.
>Nitrogen setup to re-adjust gear struts after leveling....... so on.
>
>Btw, someday try rolling a big tire aircraft like a T-6 or T28 up on those
>NEW DIGITAL SCALES.
>
>I can certainly believe the prices some folks get to do this!
>
>Kent Felkins
>Tulsa Oklahoma
>
>
>

[Mike Rapoport]

Mid-Continent has a new one that is supposed to be pretty good. I don't
have any plan to actually do this but getting rid of the whole vacuum system
is pretty appealing when it is only running one instrument.

Mike
MU-2


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Mike,
> My google search of electric AI showed reliability problem with
> 'affordable' units such as what stated by Paul Bertorelli below:
> ===================================
> I have on my answering machine here a message from a reader who bought
> five
> R.C. Allen electric AIs for a fleet of training/charter aircraft.
>
>
> Four failed within 100 hours of use. Numerous other reports of
> premature
> failure, too.
>
>
> That's not to say no one gets good service from these. But they seem
> problematical.
>
>
> No reported problems with the AIM units from BFG. They're twice as
> expensive, however.
>
>
> Paul Bertorelli
> Aviation Consumer
>
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/msg/b4807fcbe6290fab?dmode=source
>

[Matt Barrow]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Mid-Continent has a new one that is supposed to be pretty good. I don't
> have any plan to actually do this but getting rid of the whole vacuum
system
> is pretty appealing when it is only running one instrument.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>

What is the ratio of vacuum system failures to total electrical failures?

Anybody?

Can a completely separate and independent electrical bus be installed?


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Fly]

This if for the Jon that knows me. I deleted the message to quick.
Thanks for the ref.
Paint shouldn't make that much of diference in prop balance. It if it
does....you should give up painting as a profession.

Contact me direct and I'll be happy to check it for you.
Kent Felkins

[[email protected]]

Mike Rapoport wrote:
> Mid-Continent has a new one that is supposed to be pretty good. I

Mike,
I checked the price ant it costs close to $4K!! I was hoping to get
some recent data showing
improvement in the RC Allen electric AI reliability.
Hai

[Mike Rapoport]

Is that with their emergency power supply or just for the instrument?

Mike
MU-2

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>> Mid-Continent has a new one that is supposed to be pretty good. I
>
> Mike,
> I checked the price ant it costs close to $4K!! I was hoping to get
> some recent data showing
> improvement in the RC Allen electric AI reliability.
> Hai
>

[[email protected]]

Mike,

It appears that this is the price without the emergency power suppy
(Optional self-contained battery backup)

http://www.gulf-coast-avionics.com/detail.asp?id=5870

If I could find reliable electric AI at the price range comparable
with the wetpump option, I would certainly consider it. I have done
quite a bit of reading and have gone back and forth on the choice. At
the current moment, we are still leaning on going with the reliable and
long-lasting wet pump instead of replacing the dry pump and adding a
Precise Flight backup system. We may add a backup option later on in
the form of portable EFIS. So far, I have seen two options

1) PCflightsystem: http://www.pcflightsystems.com/ (Michell P
purchased the unit last year and seemed quite happy with her choice)
and
2) Control Vision Anywhere AI:
http://www.anywheremap.com/pages/Section_AI.aspx

I really envy owners of experimental aircrafts who can obtain the
best technology aviation gadgets much earlier and cheaper than what
available for certified aircrafts such as the stuffs provided by Dynon
avionics and Blue Mountain Avionics
http://www.dynonavionics.com/

http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/

[Mike Rapoport]

I agree that there aren't really any attractive choices. I don't think that
it will be long before solid state gyros are cheaper than the iron gyro junk
now on the market. Solid state is much cheaper to make.

Mike
MU-2


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Mike,
>
> It appears that this is the price without the emergency power suppy
> (Optional self-contained battery backup)
>
> http://www.gulf-coast-avionics.com/detail.asp?id=5870
>
> If I could find reliable electric AI at the price range comparable
> with the wetpump option, I would certainly consider it. I have done
> quite a bit of reading and have gone back and forth on the choice. At
> the current moment, we are still leaning on going with the reliable and
> long-lasting wet pump instead of replacing the dry pump and adding a
> Precise Flight backup system. We may add a backup option later on in
> the form of portable EFIS. So far, I have seen two options
>
> 1) PCflightsystem: http://www.pcflightsystems.com/ (Michell P
> purchased the unit last year and seemed quite happy with her choice)
> and
> 2) Control Vision Anywhere AI:
> http://www.anywheremap.com/pages/Section_AI.aspx
>
> I really envy owners of experimental aircrafts who can obtain the
> best technology aviation gadgets much earlier and cheaper than what
> available for certified aircrafts such as the stuffs provided by Dynon
> avionics and Blue Mountain Avionics
> http://www.dynonavionics.com/
>
> http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/
>

[nuke]

<< I agree that there aren't really any attractive choices. I don't think that

it will be long before solid state gyros are cheaper than the iron gyro junk
now on the market. Solid state is much cheaper to make.

Mike
MU-2 >><BR><BR>


True, but lawyers make anything new and cheaper to make a LOT more expensive to
certify and buy.


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.