Re: Owner's right to maintenance records?

[Denny]

N registered aircraft are required to have all work recorded in the
airframe and powerplant logs, what you apparently call maintenance
records... I have no idea why you would think otherwise... My 1957
Apache came with an armload of logbooks going back to day one... In
this country a plane that does not have a complete set of logbooks
suffers a significant drop in the value of the aircraft...

Denny

[Dude]

>
> Moreover, can the maintenance organisation say that they must keep a
> copy, and charge me (whatever they like) for making a copy?
>
> Thank you for any feedback.
>


As far as I am aware, an FAA certified A&P has to put records of work in the
aircraft logs. He may charge you for the entry, but he has to make it or,
depending on the work, he could risk his certificate. Many A&P's charge
hourly rates for the time they spend on your paper work.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter wrote:
>
> Does the owner of an N registered aircraft have the right to keep all
> the maintenance records?

In the U.S., the owner frequently (probably usually) keeps the records. The
records are presented to the maintenance organization so that they can inspect
the records during the annual inspection process and make their own entries when
this or any maintenance work is performed.

> Moreover, can the maintenance organisation say that they must keep a
> copy, and charge me (whatever they like) for making a copy?

I've never heard of this being done in the States, but dealing with a shop here
is contractural. If a shop were to make this claim, the owner could choose to go
elsewhere.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Mark Hansen]

On 1/20/2005 01:43, Peter wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Does the owner of an N registered aircraft have the right to keep all
> the maintenance records?

The Pilot in Command needs to be able to inspect the Aircraft and
Powerplant maintenance logs to be sure the aircraft is airworthy.
This couldn't be done if the log books were not available to him.

This is in the U.S, anyway.

>
> Presently, records are kept by maintenance organisations and these are
> not normally given to the aircraft owner. So, over the years, bits end
> up in different places and as maintenance firms go out of business,
> these get lost.
>
> I am currently putting everything together in one place.
>
> I know that under G-reg (which is where the aircraft presently is) I
> do have that right because the maintenance records form a part of the
> aircraft logbooks. It's the FAA rules I am not sure about.
>
> Moreover, can the maintenance organisation say that they must keep a
> copy, and charge me (whatever they like) for making a copy?
>
> Thank you for any feedback.
>
>
> Peter.
> --
> Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
> E-mail replies to but remove the X and the Y.
> Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT necessary.


--
Mark Hansen
PP-ASEL, C-172M/G

[[email protected]]

This request might have a deeper meaning than first apparent. I have
all of the logs from day one for my aircraft but they are not what I
would consider 'complete'. Some of the earlier entries show in broad
terms the work that was performed and then refer to work order #XXX for
details.

If you ask for (demand) copies of all work orders you should be able to
obtain them readily when the work is performed. Trying to go back 20
years or so to retrieve them is a totally different exercise. Yes - you
have the right to all of the documentation, but an attempt to get
copies afetr a number of years would likely be a problem.

Jack

[[email protected]]

The FBO/Repair Station that I used to work for had an excellent policy
on records. We placed a copy of the work order with a detailed listing
of parts and work performed with the aircraft logs. In addition, we
kept a file on each aircraft that included copies of the most current
log book pages dating back to the last annual. Along with those copies,
we included all the maintenance worksheets we used and any paper notes
anyone made during the time the aircraft was in our possesion. It made
it very easy for someone to call us and either verify anything we did
or recover data when the log books were damaged.
Craig C.

[nuke]

>What it won't say (unless the engineer felt like writing it in
>there) is that the landing gear gas seals had to be replaced and two
>instrument panel light had to be replaced, etc; that will be in a
>separate file which is referenced in the logbook.

Under US rules, that is supposed to be in the logbooks too.


--
Dr. Nuketopia
Sorry, no e-Mail.
Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

[Michael]

>Logbooks yes. I have the logbooks. But logbooks don't contain the
>*details* of work done. They should contain references to other
>documents. For example a logbook might say that a 100hr check was
>done. What it won't say (unless the engineer felt like writing it in
>there) is that the landing gear gas seals had to be replaced and two
>instrument panel light had to be replaced, etc; that will be in a
>separate file which is referenced in the logbook.

This is not correct. 14CFR43 requires that a record be made of the
work done. A 100 hr inspection is just that - an inspection. It is
acceptable to state that a 100 hr inspection was performed and no
discrepancies were found. Any discrepancies found and corrected would
be maintenance in addition to the inspection, and would have to be
recorded. It is acceptable to reference a work order, but a copy of
that work order would have to be attached to the maintenance records.
In practice, this often means the mechanic returns the logbook AND a
copy of the work order to the owner. The owner then promptly loses the
copy of the work order, since to him it's just another receipt. The
careful owner will tape/staple/otherwise make the work order a part of
the permanent maintenance record, and this will not happen. Some
owners are so 'careful' that they never throw ANYTHING away, and the
maintenance records are all in one big bag with every receipt for
everything that was ever done in there. Others throw everything away.
Very few (excepting those who do their own maintenance) are anywhere in
between.

If a reference was made to a work order but the work order was not
given to the owner, regulations have been broken. Good luck proving
it, though. If the work is recent the work order will be on file. I
have yet to encounter a repair station that would not make a copy for
the current owner. Yes, they have a right to charge for this but most
won't. But if it's old, forget it. The record is lost.

Michael

[Doug]

I no longer give my maintenance logs to any mechanic or FBO for any
period of time longer than necesarry to attach the log of the work. I
actually prefer to put the log of the work in the maintenance log. Most
mechanics have no problem just giving me a paper with a tearoff sticky
back and I attach it. I have my own way of keeping logs, which is a bit
unconventional. But after having mechanics log their work out of
sequence and in ways that made for sloppy logs, I have taken on the
responsibility myself. Also, I have discovered mistakes in logging made
by previous mechanics. I personally know of an aircraft owner that was
given a violation for having an incorrectly worded log his logbooks.
Since the FAA is saying it is up to the owner/operator, then I do it
myself. Each log goes on it's own seperate sheet of paper. These sheets
of paper are each put in a glassene envelope in a 3 ring binder. I now
have the worlds neatest logs. In the past, I have given my logs to a
mechanic, purportedly worth 1/3 the value of the airplane, and NEVER
did I get a receipt. If they were lost or stolen, he could simply
maintain he never had them. Would you check $25,000 worth of jewelry
into the hotel safe without a receipt or put $25,000 of money into a
bank without a receipt? Yet mechanics take our logs and "throw them
into a non-locked drawer". as if they are the Sunday newspaper. If the
mechanic asks for my logbooks I bring him all of the aircraft paperwork
(POH, manual etc), except the airframe and engine logs (and in my case
propellor and float logs), in a pouch and that seems to make him happy.
Some mechanics seem to want to possess logs as a control issue. I only
give the mechanic the logbooks if they have a need for them. And they
only get to examine them for the time it takes, and I get them back
immediately thereafter. I have no issue with them looking at the logs,
but they cannot take possession of them. If this ever became an issue,
I could easily remove each page and xerox it and give them a copy,
something I should probably do anyway.

[Aaron Coolidge]

In rec.aviation.owning Doug > wrote:
: immediately thereafter. I have no issue with them looking at the logs,
: but they cannot take possession of them. If this ever became an issue,
: I could easily remove each page and xerox it and give them a copy,
: something I should probably do anyway.

A far better idea: take a picture of each page with your digital camera.
Put those pictures on a CD. Much easier to store than xerox copies, and
if you ever decide to sell you can just send the CD with the airplane
when it goes for inspections.
--
Aaron C.

[BTIZ]

if the logbook says a 100hr inspection was completed IAW the maint manual..
then only what is in the maint manual for a 100hr inspection counts.. the
seals were not logged as replaced, so it did not happen...

if the 100hr inspection entry makes reference to a "work order number", then
a copy of that work order should be with the maint logs... if you as the
owner do not have a copy of the work order, from your receipt of payment for
services.. that is your problem.. as far a buyer or insurance rep would
say... if it is not in the log books , it did not happen and it would
devalue your aircraft.

BT

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Denny" > wrote
>
>>N registered aircraft are required to have all work recorded in the
>>airframe and powerplant logs, what you apparently call maintenance
>>records... I have no idea why you would think otherwise... My 1957
>>Apache came with an armload of logbooks going back to day one... In
>>this country a plane that does not have a complete set of logbooks
>>suffers a significant drop in the value of the aircraft...
>
> Logbooks yes. I have the logbooks. But logbooks don't contain the
> *details* of work done. They should contain references to other
> documents. For example a logbook might say that a 100hr check was
> done. What it won't say (unless the engineer felt like writing it in
> there) is that the landing gear gas seals had to be replaced and two
> instrument panel light had to be replaced, etc; that will be in a
> separate file which is referenced in the logbook.
>
> My question was whether *** under FAA rules *** the aircraft owner is
> entitled to have a copy of these separate files. I have just been
> advised by email from someone who I know should know that the
> maintenance firm *is* required by the FAA to keep copies, so if they
> do hand the originals over they are allowed to make a reasonable
> charge for copying.
>
> One of the problems with purchasing a second user aircraft is that
> even if all the logbooks are present, there is no record of what might
> have been a very long string of minor rectification work, especially
> if some of the various maintenance firms involved have gone bust.
>
>
> Peter.
> --
> Return address is invalid to help stop junk mail.
> E-mail replies to but remove the X and the Y.
> Please do NOT copy usenet posts to email - it is NOT necessary.

[Robert M. Gary]

Peter wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Does the owner of an N registered aircraft have the right to keep all
> the maintenance records?

I just found out that the local A&P on our field is in the hospitol and
not doing well. A lot of people have their logs with him and he's done
a lot of annuals that he hasn't yet signed. If he doesn't do well, that
will hurt a lot of people. I NEVER leave my logs with any A&P other
than just a couple days during annual. I just ask for stickers. There
really isn't much reason for A&Ps to have your logs other than to check
for ADs during annual.
-Robert

[Blanche]

Peter -- serial numbers must be verified against the device installed
in the aircraft. This is a conformity check. There is no guarantee
that the device has not been swapped out at some time for another one.
Which may or may not be an airworthy part....

[Dude]

Peter,

I would recommend that you demand a record of the work performed before
paying the bill. If they won't go along, then use another shop.

I recently questioned a shop about the amount of time they charged for an
annual. They told me that 2 hours was spent on the paper work. I figured
out that they could not have spent nearly that time much and their write up
wasn't even complete. They just lost a LOT of potential business.

Vote with your feet.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter wrote:
>
> Logbooks yes. I have the logbooks. But logbooks don't contain the
> *details* of work done. They should contain references to other
> documents. For example a logbook might say that a 100hr check was
> done. What it won't say (unless the engineer felt like writing it in
> there) is that the landing gear gas seals had to be replaced and two
> instrument panel light had to be replaced, etc; that will be in a
> separate file which is referenced in the logbook.
>
> My question was whether *** under FAA rules *** the aircraft owner is
> entitled to have a copy of these separate files.

Under FAA rules, the logbooks themselves must contain the details of the work.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[C J Campbell]

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Denny" > wrote
>
> >N registered aircraft are required to have all work recorded in the
> >airframe and powerplant logs, what you apparently call maintenance
> >records... I have no idea why you would think otherwise... My 1957
> >Apache came with an armload of logbooks going back to day one... In
> >this country a plane that does not have a complete set of logbooks
> >suffers a significant drop in the value of the aircraft...
>
> Logbooks yes. I have the logbooks. But logbooks don't contain the
> *details* of work done. They should contain references to other
> documents. For example a logbook might say that a 100hr check was
> done. What it won't say (unless the engineer felt like writing it in
> there) is that the landing gear gas seals had to be replaced and two
> instrument panel light had to be replaced, etc; that will be in a
> separate file which is referenced in the logbook.

It sure should say that. In fact, very often light bulbs and other things
are replaced with no log entries, either at the FBO or anywhere else.
Sometimes the owner replaces light bulbs. There is usually no written entry
anywhere when someone adds a quart of oil, either, or if they put air in the
tires, or clean bugs off the prop.

At the very least, though, the logbooks should contain the same details as
any records kept by the FBO, such as they are. Mine do.