Engine Preheater - any good?

[Bob Chilcoat]

My partners and I are considering this preheater:
http://aerothermheaters.com/

It's advantages seem to be that, unlike Tannis and other sump heaters, it's
not permanently attached to the airplane, and therefore doesn't require an
STC or W&B recalculation (unless you forget it and leave it attached :-).
Anyone ever use something like this?

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

[Carl Orton]

I made up my own for $40. Got a ceramic heater from WallyMart for $19 (6" x
6" x 7.5"), then went to Home Depot and got aluminum flex duct (not the
aluminum covered plastic - I'm talking flex/corrugated aluminum), a duct
collar, and a flange. Bend the flange to the shape of the heater, mount the
duct collar in the 4" pre-drilled hole in the flange (home depot sells these
right next to the duct collars). Then fasten it to the front of the heater.
I cheaped out and used aluminum duct tape until I got it positioned right.

Set up with a timer and you've got 1500 watts of heat. I place the free end
of the duct in the nose wheel opening in my C172. After 3 hours, it's ready
to go.


"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote in message
...
> My partners and I are considering this preheater:
> http://aerothermheaters.com/
>
> It's advantages seem to be that, unlike Tannis and other sump heaters,
> it's
> not permanently attached to the airplane, and therefore doesn't require an
> STC or W&B recalculation (unless you forget it and leave it attached :-).
> Anyone ever use something like this?
>
> --
> Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
>
>

[Jim Rosinski]

Bob Chilcoat wrote:
> My partners and I are considering this preheater:
> http://aerothermheaters.com/
>
> It's advantages seem to be that, unlike Tannis and other sump
> heaters, it's not permanently attached to the airplane, and
> therefore doesn't require an STC or W&B recalculation (unless
> you forget it and leave it attached :-).
> Anyone ever use something like this?

Here's what I did:
http://www.burningserver.net/rosinski/airplane/pc280486.640x480.jpg
Cheap 1500 Watt heater from Kmart fits neatly between nosewheel and
lower cowl.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the heater you point to strikes me as
another typical aviation ripoff: Take the normal price you'd expect
something to cost (in this case I'd say around $30), then multiply by
10 to get the actual price because it's for an airplane.

Jim Rosinski

[Matt Barrow]

"Jim Rosinski" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Here's what I did:
> http://www.burningserver.net/rosinski/airplane/pc280486.640x480.jpg
> Cheap 1500 Watt heater from Kmart fits neatly between nosewheel and
> lower cowl.
>
> Maybe I'm missing something, but the heater you point to strikes me as
> another typical aviation ripoff: Take the normal price you'd expect
> something to cost (in this case I'd say around $30), then multiply by
> 10 to get the actual price because it's for an airplane.
>
What do you think it costs to build 100 units vs. 20000 units that K-mart
sells?
--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Jim Rosinski]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> > Maybe I'm missing something, but the heater you point to strikes me

> > as another typical aviation ripoff: Take the normal price you'd
> > expect something to cost (in this case I'd say around $30), then
> > multiply by 10 to get the actual price because it's for an
airplane.
> >
> What do you think it costs to build 100 units vs. 20000 units that
K-mart
> sells?

This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always explain the perceived
excess in price. Some things in aviation really are ripoffs. Sort of
like the saying: "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not
really out to get you".

Jim Rosinski

[Jim Rosinski]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> > Maybe I'm missing something, but the heater you point to strikes me

> > as another typical aviation ripoff: Take the normal price you'd
> > expect something to cost (in this case I'd say around $30), then
> > multiply by 10 to get the actual price because it's for an
airplane.
> >
> What do you think it costs to build 100 units vs. 20000 units that
K-mart
> sells?

This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always fully explain the
perceived excess in price. Some things in aviation really are ripoffs.
Sort of like the saying: "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean
they're not really out to get you".

Jim Rosinski

[Matt Barrow]

"Jim Rosinski" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always explain the perceived
> excess in price. Some things in aviation really are ripoffs.

Agreed, so how does that translate to the item in question?

> Sort of
> like the saying: "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not
> really out to get you".

The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by the FAA
standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than for automobiles,
even though they are the exact same thing.

And I know for a fact that they are trying to get me. But they won't get me;
I'm on a mission from god.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Rosspilot]

>. After 3 hours, it's ready
>to go.

3 Hours? Way too long.
I still use (and love) my trusty Red Dragon.

Last Friday it was 6 degrees when I had to do a shoot . . . preheated for an
hour and ready to go . . . warm as toast.


www.Rosspilot.com

[Jim Rosinski]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> > This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always explain the
> > perceived excess in price. Some things in aviation really are
> > ripoffs.
>
> Agreed, so how does that translate to the item in question?

The item in question appears to be an electric space heater you could
buy at Kmart, Target, etc. for $20, with a couple of hoses attached to
fit in the cowling of an airplane. The price is $299. If I'm right and
the profit margin is around 1000% per unit, this strikes me as
excessive. And THREE HOURS to preheat?!?! The Kmart preheating solution
I mentioned in an earlier article can do it in two or less.

> The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by the
> FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than for
> automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing.

So NOTHING in aviation outside of FAA mandates is a ripoff? You might
want to rethink, or rephrase, those words.

Jim Rosinski

[Matt Barrow]

"Jim Rosinski" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> > > This "economy of scale" argument doesn't always explain the
> > > perceived excess in price. Some things in aviation really are
> > > ripoffs.
> >
> > Agreed, so how does that translate to the item in question?
>
> The item in question appears to be an electric space heater you could
> buy at Kmart, Target, etc. for $20, with a couple of hoses attached to
> fit in the cowling of an airplane. The price is $299. If I'm right and
> the profit margin is around 1000% per unit, this strikes me as
> excessive.

THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters from
Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come on...why don't
you?

> And THREE HOURS to preheat?!?! The Kmart preheating solution
> I mentioned in an earlier article can do it in two or less.

See previous two sentences.

Oh, the Rube Goldberg's of the world!!

> > The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by the
> > FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than for
> > automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing.
>
> So NOTHING in aviation outside of FAA mandates is a ripoff? You might
> want to rethink, or rephrase, those words.

You might want to think of the word "voluntary".

[Matt Barrow]

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
> >. After 3 hours, it's ready
> >to go.
>
> 3 Hours? Way too long.
> I still use (and love) my trusty Red Dragon.
>
> Last Friday it was 6 degrees when I had to do a shoot . . . preheated for
an
> hour and ready to go . . . warm as toast.
>

I believe such products (this thing, Reiff, Tanis) are for over-night warm
ups, not spur of the moment.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Jon]

Bob,

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to install a preheat system on the
airframe.. Our shop has installed 15 or 20 in the last few years with
7 or so being Reiff's. We have never had one go bad (Except the one we
installed wrong!). For the $100 or so dollar more it cost you get a
great product without ANY hassle. Just plug it in.

I have read the notes about the Wal-mart and Kmart heaters but what do
you do one the ramp away from home? With the wind up above 20kts or so
I would like it's hard to use something you have to setup each time you
wish to use it.

If you choose to have something installed let your shop order it they
can make a little money and you pay the same price. It should take
about 2.5 hours to install and do the paper work.

Jon

[George Patterson]

Jim Rosinski wrote:
>
> The item in question appears to be an electric space heater you could
> buy at Kmart, Target, etc. for $20, with a couple of hoses attached to
> fit in the cowling of an airplane.

If it's really putting out air at 190 degrees, it's not any heater you can buy
at a retail outlet. A claim is also made that it has a thermostat that will
regulate the unit. The thermostats on typical heaters designed for home use
measure the ambient temperature of the air in the room, not the temperature of
the air flowing through the unit. This is, of course, a function of the location
of the thermostat, but someone had to do some design work here.

Seems to me to be somewhat more effort involved than just putting together a few
off-the-shelf parts.

George Patterson
He who marries for money earns every penny of it.

[Jim Rosinski]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters from
> Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come on...why
> don't you?

Because I don't want to.

> Oh, the Rube Goldberg's of the world!!

Rube Goldberg's what?

> > > The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by
> > > the FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than

> > > for automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing.
> >
> > So NOTHING in aviation outside of FAA mandates is a ripoff? You
> > might want to rethink, or rephrase, those words.
>
> You might want to think of the word "voluntary".
>
:
What does that non-answer have to do with anything I said?

Jim Rosinski

[Jim Rosinski]

George Patterson wrote:

> If it's really putting out air at 190 degrees, it's not any heater
> you can buy at a retail outlet.

It puts out 500, 1000, or 1500 watts, which oddly enough are the same
power settings as on my Kmart "preheater". A weaker fan will result in
a higher temperature, a stronger fan a lower one. The temperature
itself is meaningless to someone trying to figure out how well this
thing is going to work. Marketing hype.

> A claim is also made that it has a thermostat that will
> regulate the unit. The thermostats on typical heaters designed for
> home use measure the ambient temperature of the air in the room, not
> the temperature of the air flowing through the unit. This is, of
> course, a function of the location of the thermostat, but someone
> had to do some design work here.

Not convincing. The temperature of the air is irrelevant. What matters
is the temperature of the engine and the oil.

> Seems to me to be somewhat more effort involved than just putting
> together a few off-the-shelf parts.

Maybe you're not cynical enough. Then again, maybe I'm too cynical.
Considering the other options available though (e.g. my cheap-ass
solution, or Red Dragon), $299 is a chunk of change for something like
this.
:
Jim Rosinski

[Matt Whiting]

Jim Rosinski wrote:
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>
>>THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters from
>>Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come on...why
>>don't you?
>
>
> Because I don't want to.

Because you know that you couldn't make any money selling at that price,
which is the reason that nobody else does it either.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Jim Rosinski wrote:

> George Patterson wrote:
>
>
>>If it's really putting out air at 190 degrees, it's not any heater
>>you can buy at a retail outlet.
>
>
> It puts out 500, 1000, or 1500 watts, which oddly enough are the same
> power settings as on my Kmart "preheater". A weaker fan will result in
> a higher temperature, a stronger fan a lower one. The temperature
> itself is meaningless to someone trying to figure out how well this
> thing is going to work. Marketing hype.

Yes, the temperature is meaningless up to a point. If it moves so much
air that the temperature never gets more than 5 degrees above ambient,
then it won't be a very good preheater. However, if the temperature of
the output air is at least as high as what you wish your engine
temperature to be, then it is heat output that matters rather than
temperature of the air.


>>A claim is also made that it has a thermostat that will
>>regulate the unit. The thermostats on typical heaters designed for
>>home use measure the ambient temperature of the air in the room, not
>>the temperature of the air flowing through the unit. This is, of
>>course, a function of the location of the thermostat, but someone
>>had to do some design work here.
>
>
> Not convincing. The temperature of the air is irrelevant. What matters
> is the temperature of the engine and the oil.

Yes, but the temperature of the air has an affect on that of the engine
and oil. The air temp has to be AT LEAST as high as what you wish for
your engine.


>>Seems to me to be somewhat more effort involved than just putting
>>together a few off-the-shelf parts.
>
>
> Maybe you're not cynical enough. Then again, maybe I'm too cynical.
> Considering the other options available though (e.g. my cheap-ass
> solution, or Red Dragon), $299 is a chunk of change for something like
> this.

Yes, it is a chunk of change, so better to build your own. I did that
with a "milk house" heater, some aluminum roof flashing and some
flexible dryer duct. It wasn't pretty, but it did the job for probably
$50 in parts. However, I also probably spent 3 hours of time so when
you factor that in, the commercial units don't look quite so overpriced.


Matt

[Matt Barrow]

"Jim Rosinski" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> > THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters from
> > Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come on...why
> > don't you?
>
> Because I don't want to.

No, it's sooooo much easier to **** & moan and throw stones.

>
> > Oh, the Rube Goldberg's of the world!!
>
> Rube Goldberg's what?
>
> > > > The only rip-off is the prices for parts/equipment mandated by
> > > > the FAA standards (i.e., seat belts that cost ten times more than
>
> > > > for automobiles, even though they are the exact same thing.
> > >
> > > So NOTHING in aviation outside of FAA mandates is a ripoff? You
> > > might want to rethink, or rephrase, those words.
> >
> > You might want to think of the word "voluntary".
> >
> :
> What does that non-answer have to do with anything I said?

A BMW costs $60,000 and doesn't cost that much more to produce than a Honda
Accord: is that a rip-off?

A "rip-off" is something you can't so without or something involving theft,
not something you acquire voluntarily.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, "Matt Barrow"
> writes:

>I believe such products (this thing, Reiff, Tanis) are for over-night warm
>ups, not spur of the moment.
>

Why so? I find that my Tannis does a pretty good job after and hour or two.
After all, you don't have to get the engine up to operating temp. If I have
raised the engine temp 20 or 30 deg I have done a lot of good.

Chuck

[Jim Rosinski]

Matt Barrow wrote:

> > > THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters
from
> > > Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come
on...why
> > > don't you?
> >
> > Because I don't want to.
>
> No, it's sooooo much easier to **** & moan and throw stones.

I'm neither ****ing nor moaning. For whatever reason I don't know, but
you seem to want to turn a civil discussion into a flame war. The
original poster asked for input on a pre-heater he was considering.
Unfortunately, no one in this forum had any experience with the
specific item he pointed us to. Next best thing is to analyze the
vendor's claims and come up with an analysis. Mine says the item is
probably a ripoff. Others can, and have, disagreed with that
conclusion. I have no problem with that.

> > What does that non-answer have to do with anything I said?

> A BMW costs $60,000 and doesn't cost that much more to produce than a
> Honda Accord: is that a rip-off?

For the moment taking your assertion (implying that profit margins on
BMWs are vastly greater than those on Accords) as fact, I would say yes
the BMW is a ripoff. But then again I'd claim that any item with a
markup due to "yuppie appeal factor" is a ripoff. Just MHO.

> A "rip-off" is something you can't so without or something involving
> theft, not something you acquire voluntarily.

After puzzling over this statement and finally getting it to make some
sense by changing "so" to "do", it says something remarkable. You think
that anyone who purchases anything voluntarily has by definition not
been ripped off. Interesting definition.

Jim Rosinski

[Rosspilot]

>> Last Friday it was 6 degrees when I had to do a shoot . . . preheated for
>an
>> hour and ready to go . . . warm as toast.
>>
>
>I believe such products (this thing, Reiff, Tanis) are for over-night warm
>ups, not spur of the moment.
>

I am tied down outside--no hangar, no power. I've had a Tanis heater since
owning the plane (it came with it) but it's useless to me.
www.Rosspilot.com

[Carl Orton]

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...

> 3 Hours? Way too long.
> I still use (and love) my trusty Red Dragon.
>
Well, I use a timer, so it doesn't matter if it's 3 hours or 15 minutes.
When I get to the plane, it's ready to go. For the $$$ I saved, the time is
not a factor for me!

[Matt Barrow]

"Jim Rosinski" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> > > > THEN DON'T BUY IT. Rather, why don't you buy some space heaters
> from
> > > > Wal-Mart and some ducted hoses and sell them for $50? Come
> on...why
> > > > don't you?
> > >
> > > Because I don't want to.
> >
> > No, it's sooooo much easier to **** & moan and throw stones.
>
> I'm neither ****ing nor moaning.

Um...yes, you are. You're ****ing that someone who makes a product that
isn't a rube goldberg contraption made in a garage is a rip-off.

> For whatever reason I don't know, but
> you seem to want to turn a civil discussion into a flame war.

Well, "civil" is a vague term; you called it a rip-off and cast numerous
aspersions.
In case you mis the point a "rip-off" is tantamount to THEFT.

> The
> original poster asked for input on a pre-heater he was considering.
> Unfortunately, no one in this forum had any experience with the
> specific item he pointed us to. Next best thing is to analyze the
> vendor's claims and come up with an analysis. Mine says the item is
> probably a ripoff. Others can, and have, disagreed with that
> conclusion. I have no problem with that.
> > > What does that non-answer have to do with anything I said?
>
> > A BMW costs $60,000 and doesn't cost that much more to produce than a
> > Honda Accord: is that a rip-off?
>
> For the moment taking your assertion (implying that profit margins on
> BMWs are vastly greater than those on Accords) as fact, I would say yes
> the BMW is a ripoff.

So, are you saying that "profit margin" is a factor in whether an item is a
"rip-off" or not?

> But then again I'd claim that any item with a
> markup due to "yuppie appeal factor" is a ripoff. Just MHO.

Just an very ignorant and adolesent (not to mention presumtious and
self-effected) perspective.

> > A "rip-off" is something you can't so without or something involving
> > theft, not something you acquire voluntarily.
>
> After puzzling over this statement and finally getting it to make some
> sense by changing "so" to "do", it says something remarkable. You think
> that anyone who purchases anything voluntarily has by definition not
> been ripped off. Interesting definition.

Caveat emptor....otherwise know as being mature enough to make you own
decisions and live with them.Then, there's a whole industry wrapped around
"victimhood" and people just groan about it.

Grow up!

[Matt Barrow]

"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Matt Barrow"
> > writes:
>
> >I believe such products (this thing, Reiff, Tanis) are for over-night
warm
> >ups, not spur of the moment.
> >
>
> Why so? I find that my Tannis does a pretty good job after and hour or
two.
> After all, you don't have to get the engine up to operating temp. If I
have
> raised the engine temp 20 or 30 deg I have done a lot of good.
>

Same with my Reiff. But around here, quite often, raising the temp 20
degrees would still not have it above freezing. :~(

Every little bit helps, even the old "light bulb in the engine compartment".
Thanks, but as so many have pointed out, you do more damage to an engine in
the first minutes of a very cold start than in 100 hours (or so) of cruising
at high speed.

For a turbo'ed (or turbonormalized) plant, the effect can be even more
devastating.

It's also nice to come into an engine compartment that's 80 degrees and have
the cabin heater kick out nice warm air from the 'git go.



Once again, every little bit helps.

[Doodybutch]

Bob...

I work in medicine and I got an old patient air blanket warmer for free - a
model that had been discontinued by the manufacturer. It's about 800 watts
and has a blower and heater and 3 inch plastic hose and is set at about 40
degrees C or 102 degrees F. Its a very sturdy metal floor unit with wheels.
My R182 is hangered (unheated).

I modified the heater by putting an intake plastic hose rather than having
it take air from the room. I stick the output hose in the oil dipstick
access and the input hose in the left cowl flap and I leave it on all winter
and I cover the cowl with a quilt.

The coldest mornings here are about - 25 degrees F but with this rig, the
engine is always a balmy 70-75 degrees and it heats the whole compartment -
engine, battery - everything.

I have pulled the plane out in - 25 degree weather and fired it up with a
couple shots on the primer like it was the fourth of july.

It soulds like the heater you are considering is similar to this.

Regards,

DB

[Bob Chilcoat]

Lee,

We're tied down outside, too, but we recently scored a tiedown next to a new
hangar when it was put up and several of the tiedowns (ours included) were
moved. The new hanger has outside power outlets five feet from our wingtip!
That's the main reason we're thinking about a simple preheater - nearby
power.

We would have had to run an extension cord across a taxiway where we were
before. Not practical.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
> >> Last Friday it was 6 degrees when I had to do a shoot . . . preheated
for
> >an
> >> hour and ready to go . . . warm as toast.
> >>
> >
> >I believe such products (this thing, Reiff, Tanis) are for over-night
warm
> >ups, not spur of the moment.
> >
>
> I am tied down outside--no hangar, no power. I've had a Tanis heater
since
> owning the plane (it came with it) but it's useless to me.
> www.Rosspilot.com
>
>

[Bob Chilcoat]

I work in medicine, too (Biomedical Engineer). Yeah, a scrapped Bair Hugger
would be great, but I don't have one. That's basically what this gadget is,
although we had a partnership meeting last night and agreed to engineer
something ourselves as an initial attempt. I'm going out shortly to look
for a suitable $20 heater. I have a remote-sensing thermostat I can use to
maintain the temp of the distal end of the ductwork (that's the end that'll
be inside the engine compartment) to a level that should prevent starting
any fires.

I'll report back.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Doodybutch" > wrote in message
...
> Bob...
>
> I work in medicine and I got an old patient air blanket warmer for free -
a
> model that had been discontinued by the manufacturer. It's about 800
watts
> and has a blower and heater and 3 inch plastic hose and is set at about 40
> degrees C or 102 degrees F. Its a very sturdy metal floor unit with
wheels.
> My R182 is hangered (unheated).
>
> I modified the heater by putting an intake plastic hose rather than having
> it take air from the room. I stick the output hose in the oil dipstick
> access and the input hose in the left cowl flap and I leave it on all
winter
> and I cover the cowl with a quilt.
>
> The coldest mornings here are about - 25 degrees F but with this rig, the
> engine is always a balmy 70-75 degrees and it heats the whole
compartment -
> engine, battery - everything.
>
> I have pulled the plane out in - 25 degree weather and fired it up with a
> couple shots on the primer like it was the fourth of july.
>
> It soulds like the heater you are considering is similar to this.
>
> Regards,
>
> DB
>
>