Tire question

[Jay Honeck]

So, the annual is done, and I came out easy (again!) -- just two tires and a
brake hose. (Knock on wood. They're still installing the landing lights,
so I s'pose they could still find something else...)

Although I'm replacing both tires, really only the right tire was bad. It
had five bald spots, while the left tire was still pretty good -- a bit more
worn on one side than the other, but that's pretty normal.

Question: Any clues what could cause one tire to wear dramatically faster
than the other? (They were "Monster" retreads, BTW, which are highly
recommended by my shop for long life.)

Note: When we park the plane at our hangar, we must pivot the plane sharply
on its LEFT tire, by locking that brake and turning as sharply as possible,
to position it for pushing back -- yet it was the RIGHT tire that
prematurely (IMHO) wore out.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Question: Any clues what could cause one tire to wear dramatically faster
> than the other?

I'd suspect the right brake. It may be in OK condition, but if it has a
tendency to lock slightly, upon landing, that could cause the premature
wear. You might not even notice that it's doing it. Keeping the calipers
clean and the caliper pins lubricated might help.

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[[email protected]]

Hi Jay,

Lucky you with your annual, I'm now waiting for three months for some
bracket that holds the wire for the nav. light.
Wild gues with your tyre, maybe you have the tendecy to land on your
right wheel first.

-Kees

[Stan Prevost]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:yoLMd.48293$EG1.25376@attbi_s53...

> Although I'm replacing both tires, really only the right tire was bad.
> It had five bald spots, while the left tire was still pretty good -- a bit
> more worn on one side than the other, but that's pretty normal.
>

Jay, I don't really have an answer to why one wears more than the other, but
on our Saratoga, I found ($$) that the biggest thing that reduced tire wear
for me was to make sure I have retracted the flaps before braking. With
full flaps, and moderate braking, the tires have a tendency to slide a
little. While I usually try to not use any brakes at all after landing, or
very little, there times when it is needed.

Stan

[Dave Butler]

Stan Prevost wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:yoLMd.48293$EG1.25376@attbi_s53...
>
>
>>Although I'm replacing both tires, really only the right tire was bad.
>>It had five bald spots, while the left tire was still pretty good -- a bit
>>more worn on one side than the other, but that's pretty normal.
>>
>
>
> Jay, I don't really have an answer to why one wears more than the other, but
> on our Saratoga, I found ($$) that the biggest thing that reduced tire wear
> for me was to make sure I have retracted the flaps before braking. With
> full flaps, and moderate braking, the tires have a tendency to slide a
> little. While I usually try to not use any brakes at all after landing, or
> very little, there times when it is needed.

Frequent flat-spotting is a well-known problem on Mooneys. You can't feel the
skid, but it's easy to lock up the brakes without realizing it. I suppose it
could happen on any other model, too. Of course, that doesn't explain why only
one tire is flat-spotted. Could be a contributing factor, though.

[Tony Cox]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:yoLMd.48293$EG1.25376@attbi_s53...
>
> Question: Any clues what could cause one tire to wear dramatically faster
> than the other? (They were "Monster" retreads, BTW, which are highly
> recommended by my shop for long life.)

See which wheel leaves the ground first on take-off, if any. Perhaps
you're dragging the right wheel at an angle slightly for the last 10' or
so of the take-off roll. It could be you're not giving it quite
enough right rudder and compensating by banking slightly in that
direction.

Do you normally 'fly it off' or do you hold it on the runway a little
longer & then bring it up abruptly as if you were in a strong
crosswind? Are most of your landings done with a crosswind
from the right?

[Dale]

In article <yoLMd.48293$EG1.25376@attbi_s53>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:


> Note: When we park the plane at our hangar, we must pivot the plane sharply
> on its LEFT tire, by locking that brake and turning as sharply as possible,
> to position it for pushing back -- yet it was the RIGHT tire that
> prematurely (IMHO) wore out.

Are you right handed? Perhaps you're putting a little more pressure on
the right brake on rollout.

Do you make mostly right turns when taxiing?

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <yoLMd.48293$EG1.25376@attbi_s53>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> So, the annual is done, and I came out easy (again!) -- just two tires and a
> brake hose. (Knock on wood. They're still installing the landing lights,
> so I s'pose they could still find something else...)
>
> Although I'm replacing both tires, really only the right tire was bad. It
> had five bald spots, while the left tire was still pretty good -- a bit more
> worn on one side than the other, but that's pretty normal.
>
> Question: Any clues what could cause one tire to wear dramatically faster
> than the other? (They were "Monster" retreads, BTW, which are highly
> recommended by my shop for long life.)
>
> Note: When we park the plane at our hangar, we must pivot the plane sharply
> on its LEFT tire, by locking that brake and turning as sharply as possible,
> to position it for pushing back -- yet it was the RIGHT tire that
> prematurely (IMHO) wore out.



You may be adding a bit of right brake (in addition to right rudder) on
takeoff; the right bearing may be a bit too tight; perhaps the retread
on that side was not up to par.

[Jay Honeck]

> Lucky you with your annual, I'm now waiting for three months for some
> bracket that holds the wire for the nav. light.

THREE MONTHS? For a nav light bracket?

My A&P -- an award-winning home-builder -- would fabricate one for you, if
you ask him nice.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Do you make mostly right turns when taxiing?

After we've landed, they're almost all right turns to get back to my hangar.

Of course, before we depart, (on the way out to the runway) they're all left
turns!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dale]

In article <O3YMd.20213$C24.19347@attbi_s52>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > Do you make mostly right turns when taxiing?
>
> After we've landed, they're almost all right turns to get back to my hangar.
>
> Of course, before we depart, (on the way out to the runway) they're all left
> turns!
>
> ;-)

Thinking about it you're probably not going to flatspot a tire taxiing,
unless you're a real aggressive taxier. <G>

I'd bet a little inadvertant skid due to strong right leg.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Jay Honeck]

> Thinking about it you're probably not going to flatspot a tire taxiing,
> unless you're a real aggressive taxier. <G>
>
> I'd bet a little inadvertant skid due to strong right leg.

Personally, as with anything that goes wrong with the airplane, I'm taking
the coward's way out...

....and blaming Mary.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

Dale wrote:

> Thinking about it you're probably not going to flatspot a tire taxiing,
> unless you're a real aggressive taxier. <G>
>
> I'd bet a little inadvertant skid due to strong right leg.
>

I've seen people doing things that could flat spot nose wheels when
taxiing Navions (I suspect you can do it with other planes as well).
The toe brake modification will let you drag the nose tire (you can
turn an arc smaller than the nose gear steering allows).

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
> Personally, as with anything that goes wrong with the airplane, I'm taking
> the coward's way out...
>
> ...and blaming Mary.
>
> :-)

But Mary and the mechanic know who's really responsible :-)

Margy and our mechanic blame me for anythign that breaks. And I haven't
broken any rudder pedals since I bought 4 spares at the aeromart at Oskosh
a decade ago.

[Doug]

Do you get prevailing crosswinds from one direction over the other at
your home airport?

[Bob Noel]

In article <yoLMd.48293$EG1.25376@attbi_s53>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Question: Any clues what could cause one tire to wear dramatically faster
> than the other? (They were "Monster" retreads, BTW, which are highly
> recommended by my shop for long life.)

With the huge increase in hp of your 235 vs your warrior, which foot are
using on take-off? might you be tapping the brake slightly?

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[Jay Honeck]

> With the huge increase in hp of your 235 vs your warrior, which foot are
> using on take-off? might you be tapping the brake slightly?

I suppose that's possible. We've been flying the 235 since '02 now, though,
so we're pretty used to it.

I'm going to watch Mary's feet next time we depart. When distracted she's
been known to taxi at high RPM and control speed with the brakes, which
drives me crazy, so perhaps she is controlling her take-off roll with a
touch of right brake?

Trouble is, at 5 feet tall she has to pull the seat all the way forward, so
I doubt I'll be able to see her feet, now that I think about it...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> I'm going to watch Mary's feet next time we depart. When distracted she's
> been known to taxi at high RPM and control speed with the brakes, which
> drives me crazy, so perhaps she is controlling her take-off roll with a
> touch of right brake?

Are you also going through right brake pads more rapidly than left? If not, it's
not a braking issue.

George Patterson
He who would distinguish what is true from what is false must have an
adequate understanding of truth and falsehood.

[Juan Jimenez]

Put some microswitches on the pedals, hook them up to LED's on the panel and
watch how she's using the brakes. :)

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:WBpNd.51568$EG1.41332@attbi_s53...
>> With the huge increase in hp of your 235 vs your warrior, which foot are
>> using on take-off? might you be tapping the brake slightly?
>
> I suppose that's possible. We've been flying the 235 since '02 now,
> though, so we're pretty used to it.
>
> I'm going to watch Mary's feet next time we depart. When distracted she's
> been known to taxi at high RPM and control speed with the brakes, which
> drives me crazy, so perhaps she is controlling her take-off roll with a
> touch of right brake?
>
> Trouble is, at 5 feet tall she has to pull the seat all the way forward,
> so I doubt I'll be able to see her feet, now that I think about it...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Bob Noel]

In article <WBpNd.51568$EG1.41332@attbi_s53>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > With the huge increase in hp of your 235 vs your warrior, which foot are
> > using on take-off? might you be tapping the brake slightly?
>
> I suppose that's possible. We've been flying the 235 since '02 now, though,
> so we're pretty used to it.
>
> I'm going to watch Mary's feet next time we depart.
[snip]

still trying to blame Mary, eh?

:-)

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[[email protected]]

As both a mechanic and flight instructor, looking after six
airplanes, I can say that flat-spotting is normally a result of
improper approach speeds. The airplane shouldn't be landed until it's
ready to land, and for most lightplanes heavy braking shouldn't drag
tires if the landing speed was right. We get people in a 172
approaching at 65 or 70 knots, where 55 is often enough, then holding
that high speed until a sudden flare near the surface and touchdown, in
a really flat attitude, almost immediately. The end of the runway comes
up fast and they try to stop it using lots of brake, when there's still
no weight on the wheels. End of tires. Flaps make it worse.
As the textbooks say, use the recommended approach speed. You
won't stall and fall down unless you're not paying attention. At
anywhere from 15 to 30 feet, start the roundout (raising the nose to
check descent and get rid of the speed), getting the power off, and
touch down with the nosewheel well off the surface. Stall warning
should be honking before touchdown. Any heavy braking should be
accompanied by full up- elevator to place even more weight on the
mains.

Dan

[Jay Honeck]

> As both a mechanic and flight instructor, looking after six
> airplanes, I can say that flat-spotting is normally a result of
> improper approach speeds.

This is all right and proper, of course -- but it doesn't address the issue.

Which is: Why is one tire flat-spotted, while the other is not?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[James M. Knox]

Ron Natalie > wrote in
m:

> Margy and our mechanic blame me for anythign that breaks. And I
> haven't broken any rudder pedals since I bought 4 spares at the
> aeromart at Oskosh a decade ago.

Sign at the BBQ place I eat:

"I have a very responsible job around here."

"No matter what goes wrong, someone
always claims I was responsible."


Someone questioned earlier if you were always landing on one wheel vs. the
other. Quite possible. At my home airport, probably 90% of the time the
landing is with a quartering left front crosswind. So the landing is
almost ALWAYS left main first. Could be something similar, so "familiar"
that you don't even think about it.

Then again, could be that one wheel just needs alignment. <G>

jmk

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > As both a mechanic and flight instructor, looking after six
> > airplanes, I can say that flat-spotting is normally a result of
> > improper approach speeds.
>
> This is all right and proper, of course -- but it doesn't address the
issue.
>
> Which is: Why is one tire flat-spotted, while the other is not?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

One brake might have a bit more authority than the other. One
tire might have a slightly lower coefficient of friction. The pilot
might have a little stronger right foot. He might have a habit of using
a bit of unnecessary aileron in the landing roll, lifting one wheel a
bit. There are plenty of variables. If the brake isn't dragging more
than it should, and the bearings aren't too tight, there's no other
explanation for bald spots. The occasional sharp turn shouldn't do it,
though that can wear the tire more than usual. By the way, I've seen a
tire flat-spotted even when it was dragged on a wet runway.
A pilot should examine his technique when he notices excessive
tire wear, just as he should rethink engine management if his fuel burn
is too high or the airplane's belly is all black and sooty. We're often
too quick to blame the machinery.

Dan

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>> As both a mechanic and flight instructor, looking after six
>>airplanes, I can say that flat-spotting is normally a result of
>>improper approach speeds.
>
>
> This is all right and proper, of course -- but it doesn't address the issue.
>
> Which is: Why is one tire flat-spotted, while the other is not?

You're heavier on that brake than the other. You may be riding that
brake during takeoff or landing without knowing it.

[Don Hammer]

I spent 25 years maintaining larger aircraft. We didn't get flat
spots because they have anti-skid systems, but the right brakes and
tires always seemed to wear faster on my company aircraft. The reason
- most of our pilots were right handed. A right handed pilot will
have a stronger right leg and that is the side that got pushed first
and the hardest. You can watch the brake pressure gauge in the
cockpit and tell on the first landing if he is a lefty or not.

[Jay Honeck]

>I spent 25 years maintaining larger aircraft. We didn't get flat
> spots because they have anti-skid systems, but the right brakes and
> tires always seemed to wear faster on my company aircraft. The reason
> - most of our pilots were right handed. A right handed pilot will
> have a stronger right leg and that is the side that got pushed first
> and the hardest. You can watch the brake pressure gauge in the
> cockpit and tell on the first landing if he is a lefty or not.

Interesting stuff. Thanks, Don!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Don Hammer" > wrote in message
...

[Jay Honeck]

> Then again, could be that one wheel just needs alignment. <G>

You know, I was wondering about that. Can a fixed landing gear be "cocked"
to one side or the other? That would wear a tire out in no time. (Although
it wouldn't explain flat-spotting...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[George Patterson]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> You know, I was wondering about that. Can a fixed landing gear be "cocked"
> to one side or the other?

One can be, but the effect would be to produce either excessive or insufficient
toe-in with a tendency for the aircraft to move a little sideways on the ground.
If bad enough, it will require noticeable rudder input. It would not produce
different wear patterns on the mains. Bending one axle either up or down *would*
produce an odd wear pattern on only that one wheel, but only a tendency for the
wear to be on either the inside or outside tread.

George Patterson
He who would distinguish what is true from what is false must have an
adequate understanding of truth and falsehood.

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> Then again, could be that one wheel just needs alignment. <G>
>
> You know, I was wondering about that. Can a fixed landing gear be "cocked"
> to one side or the other? That would wear a tire out in no time. (Although
> it wouldn't explain flat-spotting...)

Cherokee main gear *can* be aligned. It's described in the maintenance
manual. You adjust it with shims that look like really big, but thin,
washers. They go in the upper and lower joints of the trailing links. By
shimming on one side of the link or the other, you remove any slop, and
tend to cock the axle in one way or the other. I've shimmed mine, but
we kinda' eyeballed which side the shim needed to go. It worked out OK.

Cherokee missalignments tend to show themselves in the common "inner"
tread wear. I "fight" that problem by unmounting and remounting my tires
backwards, after the start wearing the inner surface.

The type of flat spotting that you describe seems more likely to be a
brake problem.

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Juan Jimenez]

Yes. You can buy shims to adjust toe-in and camber.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:oc4Od.56466$EG1.37716@attbi_s53...
>> Then again, could be that one wheel just needs alignment. <G>
>
> You know, I was wondering about that. Can a fixed landing gear be
> "cocked" to one side or the other? That would wear a tire out in no time.
> (Although it wouldn't explain flat-spotting...)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>