engine trouble

[mindenpilot]

I have about 1100 SMOH on my IO-360 (2000 TBO).
Compressions are all 70 or above.
There was only a tiny bit of metal at the last oil change.
That was shortyly after I bought it, at which time I also put a spin-on
filter adapter on.

The engine has been running great, especially lately.
However, my mechanic was fighting a nagging problem.
It seems the seal where the crank case halves come together leaks.
Mine is/was leaking right on top of the engine.
It was very disturbing for a while, but my mechanic managed to stop the leak
with some silicone.

I understand that taking it apart would be very expensive, so I've been
pricing an overhaul.
Looks like about $17K for an overhaul.
I'd really like to milk it out closer to TBO.
I'm wondering if I should continue to ignore the problem, as long as no oil
is leaking, and the engine is running fine.
It's been about three months since any problems, but I don't know how long
it will hold.
I've been flying a couple hours per week with not even a drip.

Your suggestions would be appreciated.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[kontiki]

If it were me I would keep an eye on it and try to fly it
as long as possible until the leakage becomes worse. Bear
in mind there is a big difference between a "small" leak
and a "large" leak.

[George Patterson]

mindenpilot wrote:
>
> Your suggestions would be appreciated.

You're considering doing an overhaul to fix an oil leak?!?!?!?!?! That's insane.

George Patterson
He who would distinguish what is true from what is false must have an
adequate understanding of truth and falsehood.

[mindenpilot]

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> mindenpilot wrote:
>>
>> Your suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> You're considering doing an overhaul to fix an oil leak?!?!?!?!?! That's
> insane.
>
> George Patterson
> He who would distinguish what is true from what is false must have an
> adequate understanding of truth and falsehood.

When it *was* leaking, it was leaking pretty good.
Now that it's stopped, I'm not as concerned.
But, if the silicone doesn't hold, and the leak is really bad again, what
options do I have?
That's not a rhetorical question, I really would like to know...

Thanks,

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Dave Stadt]

"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
>
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > mindenpilot wrote:
> >>
> >> Your suggestions would be appreciated.
> >
> > You're considering doing an overhaul to fix an oil leak?!?!?!?!?! That's
> > insane.
> >
> > George Patterson
> > He who would distinguish what is true from what is false must have
an
> > adequate understanding of truth and falsehood.
>
> When it *was* leaking, it was leaking pretty good.
> Now that it's stopped, I'm not as concerned.
> But, if the silicone doesn't hold, and the leak is really bad again, what
> options do I have?
> That's not a rhetorical question, I really would like to know...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III


R & R the silicone and buy a box of Scott disposable rags.

[Peter R.]

George Patterson > wrote:

> You're considering doing an overhaul to fix an oil leak?!?!?!?!?!
> That's insane.

That's exactly what I had to do these past few months. Of course, the
engine was well over TBO and the leak was coming from a cracked cylinder.


--
Peter







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[Mike Rapoport]

You might check into a "wicking sealant". I know permatex makes one, but I
don't know the part number. Do it at night since it is not aircraft stuff.
It has worked for me on a variety of leaks on transmissions and transaxles.
Of course you need to remove the RTV and clean the area with brake cleaner
first.

Mike
MU-2


"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
>I have about 1100 SMOH on my IO-360 (2000 TBO).
> Compressions are all 70 or above.
> There was only a tiny bit of metal at the last oil change.
> That was shortyly after I bought it, at which time I also put a spin-on
> filter adapter on.
>
> The engine has been running great, especially lately.
> However, my mechanic was fighting a nagging problem.
> It seems the seal where the crank case halves come together leaks.
> Mine is/was leaking right on top of the engine.
> It was very disturbing for a while, but my mechanic managed to stop the
> leak with some silicone.
>
> I understand that taking it apart would be very expensive, so I've been
> pricing an overhaul.
> Looks like about $17K for an overhaul.
> I'd really like to milk it out closer to TBO.
> I'm wondering if I should continue to ignore the problem, as long as no
> oil is leaking, and the engine is running fine.
> It's been about three months since any problems, but I don't know how long
> it will hold.
> I've been flying a couple hours per week with not even a drip.
>
> Your suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III
>

[mindenpilot]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> You might check into a "wicking sealant". I know permatex makes one, but
> I don't know the part number. Do it at night since it is not aircraft
> stuff. It has worked for me on a variety of leaks on transmissions and
> transaxles. Of course you need to remove the RTV and clean the area with
> brake cleaner first.
>
> Mike
> MU-2


Good info. I'll keep this in mind if the leak comes back.
Thanks Mike.

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 02:01:14 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
> wrote:

>You might check into a "wicking sealant". I know permatex makes one, but I
>don't know the part number. Do it at night since it is not aircraft stuff.
>It has worked for me on a variety of leaks on transmissions and transaxles.
>Of course you need to remove the RTV and clean the area with brake cleaner
>first.

There is a letter circulating around from TCM concerning case seam
leaks.

The gist of the process is remove any leaking case bolts in the area,
clean thoroughly with MEK (brake cleaner would work), and apply
cyanoacrylate adhesive.

That's right, super glue. You hook a shop vac up to the breather, turn
it on, clean things up and let dry thoroughly. Turn the vac back on,
apply the glue to the seam and on the inside of the bolt holes.

Let it dry, put it all back together, torque the bolts and fly the
crap out of it.

Had really good luck using the extremely thin hobby stuff, then
painting the thicker stuff down the seam (sparingly) after the thin
stuff is dry.

Is an "approved" repair for TCM products, and I have used it with good
results.

You hit the nail on the head, it is a "wicking" leak in most cases,
and a wicking sealant will stop it...

Regards;

TC

[[email protected]]

Minor oil leakage seems to be a nagging problem with IO-360s. Our old
engine (in an Arrow IV) always leaked some oil for the last 1000 hours
before we swapped it for a factory rebuilt. (At that point, the engine was
actually beyond TBO, and leakage was not a major consideration in deciding
to do the engine swap.) Every year during the annual our mechanic would
chase down the leaks and do what he could to minimize them. One important
step was retorqueing the case bolts.

At worst, our oil consumption ran about 1 qt/6 hrs, including leakage. At
that rate (which included "real" oil consumption as well as leakage), we
were advised that our leakage was not serious -- really more of a nuisance,
so we lived with it.

One thing we learned with the old engine was that leakage was MUCH worse
when the oil level was above about 6.5 qts.

My recommendation: Sure, go ahead and have your A&P do use whatever simple
means are available to minimize leakage, but unless it gets severe (>1 qt
per 4-5 hrs) I wouldn't go beyond that.

-Elliott Drucker

[mindenpilot]

> wrote in message
news:d2jNd.5706$uc.321@trnddc02...
> Minor oil leakage seems to be a nagging problem with IO-360s. Our old
> engine (in an Arrow IV) always leaked some oil for the last 1000 hours
> before we swapped it for a factory rebuilt. (At that point, the engine
> was
> actually beyond TBO, and leakage was not a major consideration in deciding
> to do the engine swap.) Every year during the annual our mechanic would
> chase down the leaks and do what he could to minimize them. One important
> step was retorqueing the case bolts.
>
> At worst, our oil consumption ran about 1 qt/6 hrs, including leakage. At
> that rate (which included "real" oil consumption as well as leakage), we
> were advised that our leakage was not serious -- really more of a
> nuisance,
> so we lived with it.
>
> One thing we learned with the old engine was that leakage was MUCH worse
> when the oil level was above about 6.5 qts.
>
> My recommendation: Sure, go ahead and have your A&P do use whatever
> simple
> means are available to minimize leakage, but unless it gets severe (>1 qt
> per 4-5 hrs) I wouldn't go beyond that.
>
> -Elliott Drucker

That's interesting. I also read musketeer mail, a yahoo group for owners.
A recent thread suggested that the IO-360 had a high burn rate for oil, and
that 1qt/4hrs was not uncommon.
I'm actually seeing about 5hrs now, with no leak.
Should I be concerned?

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Kyle Boatright]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> You might check into a "wicking sealant". I know permatex makes one, but
> I don't know the part number. Do it at night since it is not aircraft
> stuff. It has worked for me on a variety of leaks on transmissions and
> transaxles. Of course you need to remove the RTV and clean the area with
> brake cleaner first.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>

Another issue is that RTV will degrade if exposed to too much fuel or oil.
I'd remove it, clean the area, and re-seal with something like Proseal,
which is a two part sealant used for fuel tanks. The stuff is incredible...

KB

[[email protected]]

On 6-Feb-2005, "mindenpilot" > wrote:

> I'm actually seeing about 5hrs now, with no leak.
> Should I be concerned?


Depends. Is the consumption stable? How is the compression? Most
importantly, where do you keep the oil level. If you try to keep the
crankcase full (8 qts) it will go though oil like crazy. We try to keep the
level between 6 and 6.5 qts.

BTW, after break-in our new engine consumes about 1 qt/12-15 hrs.

--
-Elliott Drucker

[Allen]

> wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 02:01:14 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
> > wrote:
>
> >You might check into a "wicking sealant". I know permatex makes one, but
I
> >don't know the part number. Do it at night since it is not aircraft
stuff.
> >It has worked for me on a variety of leaks on transmissions and
transaxles.
> >Of course you need to remove the RTV and clean the area with brake
cleaner
> >first.
>
> There is a letter circulating around from TCM concerning case seam
> leaks.
>
> The gist of the process is remove any leaking case bolts in the area,
> clean thoroughly with MEK (brake cleaner would work), and apply
> cyanoacrylate adhesive.
>
> That's right, super glue. You hook a shop vac up to the breather, turn
> it on, clean things up and let dry thoroughly. Turn the vac back on,
> apply the glue to the seam and on the inside of the bolt holes.
>
> Let it dry, put it all back together, torque the bolts and fly the
> crap out of it.
>
> Had really good luck using the extremely thin hobby stuff, then
> painting the thicker stuff down the seam (sparingly) after the thin
> stuff is dry.
>
> Is an "approved" repair for TCM products, and I have used it with good
> results.
>
> You hit the nail on the head, it is a "wicking" leak in most cases,
> and a wicking sealant will stop it...
>
> Regards;
>
> TC

TC,

If you could forward me a copy of that letter I would appreciate it. Nobody
here has heard of it.

Thanks,

Allen

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:24:37 GMT, "Allen" >
wrote:

snip

>TC,
>
>If you could forward me a copy of that letter I would appreciate it. Nobody
>here has heard of it.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Allen

The last copy I obtained is somewhere at my previous employer's shop.
I got it by calling TCM tech support and asking them for it
specifically.

It is an old advisory letter addressing crankcase backbone leaks, does
not have a SB # or anything like that.

TC

[[email protected]]

wrote:
: The gist of the process is remove any leaking case bolts in the area,
: clean thoroughly with MEK (brake cleaner would work), and apply
: cyanoacrylate adhesive.

: That's right, super glue. You hook a shop vac up to the breather, turn
: it on, clean things up and let dry thoroughly. Turn the vac back on,
: apply the glue to the seam and on the inside of the bolt holes.

: Let it dry, put it all back together, torque the bolts and fly the
: crap out of it.

: Had really good luck using the extremely thin hobby stuff, then
: painting the thicker stuff down the seam (sparingly) after the thin
: stuff is dry.

: Is an "approved" repair for TCM products, and I have used it with good
: results.

: You hit the nail on the head, it is a "wicking" leak in most cases,
: and a wicking sealant will stop it...

Holy crap... Superglue on an airplane? I was concerned that the minor seam
leak on my Lycoming O-360 was indicative of case fretting. Now I see that it's a
common problem and nothing to worry about. I guess I'll doublecheck the torque specs
on the case bolts and then get some RTV. It's only enough to cause a sheen on the
case after a long flight, so it's not enough to measure. Only disturbing thing is
what little gets blown on the side of the case goes through the jugs and seems to hit
the exact same spot on the muffler. There's a bit of a "burn oil" stain on it.

Still... I consider *any* oil on a hot muffler unacceptable, even if it's
1/100 of a drop per second.

Overhaul on an oil leak? Sh*t... nobody'd be flying if these drippy, scummy,
blowby-ed, lead-fouled creatures if needed an overhaul whenever they made a mess... :)

-Cory

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 18:15:45 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

snip

> Holy crap... Superglue on an airplane? I was concerned that the minor seam
>leak on my Lycoming O-360 was indicative of case fretting. Now I see that it's a
>common problem and nothing to worry about. I guess I'll doublecheck the torque specs
>on the case bolts and then get some RTV. It's only enough to cause a sheen on the
>case after a long flight, so it's not enough to measure. Only disturbing thing is
>what little gets blown on the side of the case goes through the jugs and seems to hit
>the exact same spot on the muffler. There's a bit of a "burn oil" stain on it.

I'm not an engine overhauler, but have worked on quite a few. As you
might have figured out, on a Lycoming there is no gasket between the
case halves, just some permatex and a piece of silk thread (at least
that's what it useta be). My understanding is the silk thread is there
to help stop weeping oil leaks between the cases.

The cases that I have seen that have had fretting issues, the fretting
has been "inside" the engine at the bearing supports. I am by no means
saying that they cannot fret at the top seam, just that I am
unfamiliar with same.

I got the infamous TCM super-glue letter when I had a nearly new
TSIO-360 on a Turbo Arrow start weeping along the top seam. Was enuff
to make a big mess. About crapped myself when I read the letter, but
followed the directions and it worked like a charm. The part I liked
(aside from it stopping the leak) was that it was almost invisible.

The super-glue job lasted for about 4 1/2 years (through normal TBO).

regards;

TC