Recommendations on Lycoming Overhauled/Rebuilt/Remanufacturered?

[Bob Chilcoat]

We're beginning to converge on TBO in our '74 Archer. At the rate we're all
flying (four partners) we'll hit 2000 hours next year sometime. Plane uses
a bit of oil, but compressions were OK at last annual (new one is this
month, so we'll see). Engine runs very well at the moment.

At any rate, I'm beginning to collect data on overhaul options. The options
seem to be that we can consider a local shop overhaul, a Lycoming or
national center overhaul, or a "factory reman" from Lycoming or perhaps
Mattituck, Superior or similar. I've heard good things about Penn Yan. Any
hard data out there? Anyone to scrupulously avoid? Strong recommendations?
Thanks. Thoughts on the relative merits of overhaul vs. remanufacture?

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

[[email protected]]

Bob Chilcoat wrote:
<snip>
> At any rate, I'm beginning to collect data on overhaul options. The
options
> seem to be that we can consider a local shop overhaul, a Lycoming or
> national center overhaul, or a "factory reman" from Lycoming or
perhaps
> Mattituck, Superior or similar. I've heard good things about Penn
Yan. Any
> hard data out there? Anyone to scrupulously avoid? Strong
recommendations?
> Thanks. Thoughts on the relative merits of overhaul vs.
remanufacture?
>

I was planning on going for a factory overhaul on my O-360 this
month. While researching this for a few months I found an alarming
number of folks who'd had recent factory overhauls and were slapped
with $3K core charges. In most cases, Lyc. could not supply any
documentation for the charge, but since they already had the customers
money, it was an uphill battle. If you google the rec.aviation groups
for Lycoming and overhaul, I think you'll find a few recent examples.

I kept shopping around and finally decided to go with a Millenium
overhaul from Superior. They have authorized shops scattered around
the country and there just happened to be one at my home base (no
shipping charges!). The kicker in my decision to go with Superior was
their Warranty. 5 years flat out. None of that "prorate to TBO at
40hrs/month" business. One of the larger local flight schools has
bought several of these engines and they are very happy with them.

I'm getting the work done in about 3 weeks, so I'll let you all know
how it turns out.


John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote:

> We're beginning to converge on TBO in our '74 Archer. At the rate we're all
> flying (four partners) we'll hit 2000 hours next year sometime. Plane uses
> a bit of oil, but compressions were OK at last annual (new one is this
> month, so we'll see). Engine runs very well at the moment.
>
> At any rate, I'm beginning to collect data on overhaul options. The options
> seem to be that we can consider a local shop overhaul, a Lycoming or
> national center overhaul, or a "factory reman" from Lycoming or perhaps
> Mattituck, Superior or similar. I've heard good things about Penn Yan. Any
> hard data out there? Anyone to scrupulously avoid? Strong recommendations?
> Thanks. Thoughts on the relative merits of overhaul vs. remanufacture?

I was(am) happy with Penn Yan - they did the overhaul of my O-320
in the summer of 2002. Lots of nice touches wrt log entries, complying
with ADs, extra gaskets, good quality leads, etc. The A&Ps that worked
on my airplane were used to a different overhaul company that the
aeroclub used - let's just say their overhauls were a step below the
Penn Yan one. btw - I went with Penn Yan rather than Mattituck because
if the crankshaft had failed the SB inspection, Mattituck would have charged
me several thousand dollars more than Penn Yan.

A friend was perfectly happy with Mattituck when his '75 Archer needed
an overhaul - he went with a swap since Mattituck had one sitting on
the shelf.

good luck.

--
Bob Noel
looking for a sig the lawyers will like

[[email protected]]

Bob Chilcoat wrote:
<snip>
> At any rate, I'm beginning to collect data on overhaul options. The
options
> seem to be that we can consider a local shop overhaul, a Lycoming or
> national center overhaul, or a "factory reman" from Lycoming or
perhaps
> Mattituck, Superior or similar. I've heard good things about Penn
Yan. Any
> hard data out there? Anyone to scrupulously avoid? Strong
recommendations?
> Thanks. Thoughts on the relative merits of overhaul vs.
remanufacture?

I was planning on going for a factory overhaul on my O-360 this month.
While researching this for a few months I found an alarming number of
folks who'd had recent factory overhauls and were slapped with $3K core
charges. In most cases, Lyc. could not supply any documentation for
the charge, but since they already had the customers money, it was an
uphill battle. If you google the rec.aviation groups for Lycoming and
overhaul, I think you'll find a few recent examples.

I kept shopping around and finally decided to go with a Millenium
overhaul from Superior. They have authorized shops scattered around
the country and there just happened to be one at my home base (no
shipping charges!). The kicker in my decision to go with Superior was
their Warranty. 5 years flat out. None of that "prorate to TBO at
40hrs/month" business. One of the larger local flight schools has
bought several of these engines and they are very happy with them.

I'm getting the work done in about 3 weeks, so I'll let you all know
how it turns out.


John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Denny]

Just be aware guys that he majority of these shops, local or national,
buy their overhaul parts from Lycoming and the core deposit money is
dependent upon Lycoming accepting your core in exchange... So Lycoming
policy controls whether you get your core deposit back when dealing
with them... Our local FBO found that out the hard way to the tune of
$3000 within the past few weeks... Don't assume anything, get it in
writing from the field overhaul company that their acceptance of your
core is not depepndent upon Lycoming policy...
The exceptions will be a PMA manufacturer like Superior or ECI
accepting your core in exchange for their manufactured parts without
reference to Lycoming policy, but again get it in writing before you
ship the engine...
The other exception will be the factory zero time engine from Lycoming,
where (AFAIK) your core is accepted as is... (yup, get it in writing
first) - and of course a brand new engine which does not require a core
exchange...

Denny

[Dave Butler]

Bob Chilcoat wrote:
> We're beginning to converge on TBO in our '74 Archer. At the rate we're all
> flying (four partners) we'll hit 2000 hours next year sometime. Plane uses
> a bit of oil, but compressions were OK at last annual (new one is this
> month, so we'll see). Engine runs very well at the moment.
>
> At any rate, I'm beginning to collect data on overhaul options. The options
> seem to be that we can consider a local shop overhaul, a Lycoming or
> national center overhaul, or a "factory reman" from Lycoming or perhaps
> Mattituck, Superior or similar. I've heard good things about Penn Yan. Any
> hard data out there? Anyone to scrupulously avoid? Strong recommendations?
> Thanks. Thoughts on the relative merits of overhaul vs. remanufacture?

[broken record]

Find a shop that does engine overhauls every day, day after day.

Find a shop that's nearby, so warranty resolution is made easier. The nationally
advertised name-brand shops are fine if they're right next door, but don't ship
your engine far away. Warranty issues are also made more complicated if one shop
does the remove and reinstall, and another does the actual overhaul. Fly your
plane to the overhaul shop and let them do the R&R.

Replace, don't repair cylinder assemblies. The price of a new Lyc cylinder is
very close to the cost to overhaul.

Ask nearby FBOs with rental fleets where they have their overhauls done.

Find a copy of the out-of-print "The Major Overhaul" by Kas Thomas.

[Doug]

Unfortunately there is no "hard" data. No one really knows which type
of rebuild is most reliable or who is the most reliable rebuilder.

>From a fundamental principles line of thought, the more parts you
replace the better off you will be. As for warranty, we would all
prefer not to need it.

My take is this, the more you pay the better you get. If you have the
money, get Lycoming new, if not, work your way down from there.

The best cost/benefit seems to be a local rebuild shop (one that
specializes in rebuilds) using your own core. You wont get a zero time
engine, and the warranty will probably not be that great, but your odds
of the engine making it to TBO are pretty good and you have some local
personal contact to work out problems, if they should occur.

[Ross Richardson]

Two years ago I purchased a Lycoming Factory Overhauled O-360-A1A. The
engine is running fine and there was no problems with the core charge. I
believe mine was $4000.00 and it was quickly returned.

Ross

" wrote:
>
> Bob Chilcoat wrote:
> <snip>
> > At any rate, I'm beginning to collect data on overhaul options. The
> options
> > seem to be that we can consider a local shop overhaul, a Lycoming or
> > national center overhaul, or a "factory reman" from Lycoming or
> perhaps
> > Mattituck, Superior or similar. I've heard good things about Penn
> Yan. Any
> > hard data out there? Anyone to scrupulously avoid? Strong
> recommendations?
> > Thanks. Thoughts on the relative merits of overhaul vs.
> remanufacture?
> >
>
> I was planning on going for a factory overhaul on my O-360 this
> month. While researching this for a few months I found an alarming
> number of folks who'd had recent factory overhauls and were slapped
> with $3K core charges. In most cases, Lyc. could not supply any
> documentation for the charge, but since they already had the customers
> money, it was an uphill battle. If you google the rec.aviation groups
> for Lycoming and overhaul, I think you'll find a few recent examples.
>
> I kept shopping around and finally decided to go with a Millenium
> overhaul from Superior. They have authorized shops scattered around
> the country and there just happened to be one at my home base (no
> shipping charges!). The kicker in my decision to go with Superior was
> their Warranty. 5 years flat out. None of that "prorate to TBO at
> 40hrs/month" business. One of the larger local flight schools has
> bought several of these engines and they are very happy with them.
>
> I'm getting the work done in about 3 weeks, so I'll let you all know
> how it turns out.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Dave Butler]

Ross Richardson wrote:
> Two years ago I purchased a Lycoming Factory Overhauled O-360-A1A. The
> engine is running fine and there was no problems with the core charge. I
> believe mine was $4000.00 and it was quickly returned.

Lyc has started enforcing its core charge policy within the last year or so. If
you have (for example) a cracked case that has been welded, no core credit.

[George Patterson]

Ross Richardson wrote:
>
> Two years ago I purchased a Lycoming Factory Overhauled O-360-A1A. The
> engine is running fine and there was no problems with the core charge. I
> believe mine was $4000.00 and it was quickly returned.

There was a thread here recently to the effect that Lycoming no longer refunds
the core charge if the last previous overhaul was not done by Lycoming.

George Patterson
He who would distinguish what is true from what is false must have an
adequate understanding of truth and falsehood.

[Jon Kraus]

I just ordered "The Major Overhaul" from aviationbook.com. Their phone
number is 1-800-423-2708 It is 39.95 plus shipping... I'm not going to
need an overhaul for a while (God willing) but it sounds like a great book.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Mooney 201 4443H

Dave Butler wrote:

> Bob Chilcoat wrote:
>
>> We're beginning to converge on TBO in our '74 Archer. At the rate
>> we're all
>> flying (four partners) we'll hit 2000 hours next year sometime. Plane
>> uses
>> a bit of oil, but compressions were OK at last annual (new one is this
>> month, so we'll see). Engine runs very well at the moment.
>>
>> At any rate, I'm beginning to collect data on overhaul options. The
>> options
>> seem to be that we can consider a local shop overhaul, a Lycoming or
>> national center overhaul, or a "factory reman" from Lycoming or perhaps
>> Mattituck, Superior or similar. I've heard good things about Penn
>> Yan. Any
>> hard data out there? Anyone to scrupulously avoid? Strong
>> recommendations?
>> Thanks. Thoughts on the relative merits of overhaul vs. remanufacture?
>
>
> [broken record]
>
> Find a shop that does engine overhauls every day, day after day.
>
> Find a shop that's nearby, so warranty resolution is made easier. The
> nationally advertised name-brand shops are fine if they're right next
> door, but don't ship your engine far away. Warranty issues are also made
> more complicated if one shop does the remove and reinstall, and another
> does the actual overhaul. Fly your plane to the overhaul shop and let
> them do the R&R.
>
> Replace, don't repair cylinder assemblies. The price of a new Lyc
> cylinder is very close to the cost to overhaul.
>
> Ask nearby FBOs with rental fleets where they have their overhauls done.
>
> Find a copy of the out-of-print "The Major Overhaul" by Kas Thomas.

[Mark Hansen]

On 2/11/2005 13:53, Jon Kraus wrote:

> I just ordered "The Major Overhaul" from aviationbook.com. Their phone
> number is 1-800-423-2708 It is 39.95 plus shipping... I'm not going to
> need an overhaul for a while (God willing) but it sounds like a great book.

Thanks for the info, Jon. I've been looking for a place to buy this
book and have been unsuccessful until now.

Best Regards,


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL
Sacramento, CA

[Jon Kraus]

The book doesn't show up on the websight... I had to call the 800 number
and have a human being look for it... Actually, as soon as I said the
title she knew exectly what I was talking about... The entire
transaction took maybe a minute...

JK

Mark Hansen wrote:

> On 2/11/2005 13:53, Jon Kraus wrote:
>
>> I just ordered "The Major Overhaul" from aviationbook.com. Their phone
>> number is 1-800-423-2708 It is 39.95 plus shipping... I'm not going to
>> need an overhaul for a while (God willing) but it sounds like a great
>> book.
>
>
> Thanks for the info, Jon. I've been looking for a place to buy this
> book and have been unsuccessful until now.
>
> Best Regards,
>
>

[Chuck]

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:27:15 -0500, "Bob Chilcoat"
> wrote:

>We're beginning to converge on TBO in our '74 Archer. At the rate we're all
>flying (four partners) we'll hit 2000 hours next year sometime. Plane uses
>a bit of oil, but compressions were OK at last annual (new one is this
>month, so we'll see). Engine runs very well at the moment.
>
>At any rate, I'm beginning to collect data on overhaul options. The options
>seem to be that we can consider a local shop overhaul, a Lycoming or
>national center overhaul, or a "factory reman" from Lycoming or perhaps
>Mattituck, Superior or similar. I've heard good things about Penn Yan. Any
>hard data out there? Anyone to scrupulously avoid? Strong recommendations?
>Thanks. Thoughts on the relative merits of overhaul vs. remanufacture?


I bought a Cherokee 180 during the summer with a 1300 hour engine. It
had a "sudden stop" in 92 after which Pen Yan tore it down and rebuilt
it. They also took care of the ADs that applied.

And its still running great. In fact, its got almost 1500 hours on it
now and its the strongest pulling/climbing 180 around. I occasionally
fly a CAP 172 with a 180 in it, and it can't hold a candle to my
Cherokee in climb rate.

Basically -- Pen Yan did a great job on this engine 12 years ago.


Chuck
N7398W

[Mark Hansen]

On 2/11/2005 16:55, Jon Kraus wrote:

> The book doesn't show up on the websight... I had to call the 800 number
> and have a human being look for it... Actually, as soon as I said the
> title she knew exectly what I was talking about... The entire
> transaction took maybe a minute...

Hmmm, I ordered it from their website. I think I searched for it,
and found it that way (I've ordered two book recently, and I'm
getting the two purchases mixed up...)

>
> JK
>
> Mark Hansen wrote:
>
>> On 2/11/2005 13:53, Jon Kraus wrote:
>>
>>> I just ordered "The Major Overhaul" from aviationbook.com. Their phone
>>> number is 1-800-423-2708 It is 39.95 plus shipping... I'm not going to
>>> need an overhaul for a while (God willing) but it sounds like a great
>>> book.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the info, Jon. I've been looking for a place to buy this
>> book and have been unsuccessful until now.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL
Sacramento, CA