Owner Change/rotate spark plugs?

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

Can an owner do this?

TIA, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.

[John Godwin]

"Victor J. Osborne, Jr." > wrote in
:

> Can an owner do this?

According to FAR 43, one may.

--

[Ben Jackson]

On 2005-02-11, Victor J. Osborne, Jr. > wrote:
> Can an owner do this?

Make sure you have new copper crush gaskets before you start...

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Denny]

I purchase copper gaskets by the 100 pack and I change them out when I
rotate plugs on my airplane, but it is not often that I see a mechanic
actually install new gaskets when working on an engine... Just
something I tend to notice as I hang around airports...
Also, only a minority seem to use a torque wrench when seating the
plugs... Perhaps their hands are better calibrated than this lifetime,
shadetree mechanic... And not many seem to use plug lube...

There is maintenance that the owner can do on his airplane, and often
do closer to engineering specifications than the bored mechanic...
Now, before the licensed mechanics on this list jump on me, I am simply
reporting my observations from a lifetime of being an airport bum...
If you do a better job, then hooray for you...

Denny

[Jon A.]

If you're talented enough! Don't forget your torque wrench, new
gaskets and antiseize compound.

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:13:52 -0500, "Victor J. Osborne, Jr."
> wrote:

>Can an owner do this?
>
>TIA, {|;-)
>
>Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.
>

>

[[email protected]]

Copper gaskets can be annealed by heating red hot and quenching in
cold water. They can be reused three or four times this way until their
diameter gets too large from being squashed. Using used, unannealed
gaskets can result in small leaks, and a leaking plug can carry carbon
into the threads and make it really hard to remove without damaging the
head's thread socket.

Dan

[Michael]

<aol>me too</aol>

Seriously, Denny's observations are spot on.

>I purchase copper gaskets by the 100 pack and I change them out when I

>rotate plugs on my airplane, but it is not often that I see a mechanic

>actually install new gaskets when working on an engine... Just
>something I tend to notice as I hang around airports...
>Also, only a minority seem to use a torque wrench when seating the
>plugs... Perhaps their hands are better calibrated than this
lifetime,
>shadetree mechanic... And not many seem to use plug lube...

>There is maintenance that the owner can do on his airplane, and often
>do closer to engineering specifications than the bored mechanic...
>Now, before the licensed mechanics on this list jump on me, I am
simply
>reporting my observations from a lifetime of being an airport bum...
>If you do a better job, then hooray for you...

[Aaron Coolidge]

wrote:
: Copper gaskets can be annealed by heating red hot and quenching in
: cold water.

That's how you harden them.
To anneal them, heat them red hot and let them cool gradually.
--
Aaron C.

[Jon Woellhaf]

At the last annual, my mechanic showed me how to anneal the copper spark
plug gaskets before reusing them.

Is this common practice?

[Rip]

No, copper is annealed by quenching rapidly.

Aaron Coolidge wrote:
> wrote:
> : Copper gaskets can be annealed by heating red hot and quenching in
> : cold water.
>
> That's how you harden them.
> To anneal them, heat them red hot and let them cool gradually.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Aaron Coolidge > wrote:

> wrote:
> : Copper gaskets can be annealed by heating red hot and quenching in
> : cold water.
>
> That's how you harden them.
> To anneal them, heat them red hot and let them cool gradually.


WRONG!! Copper behaves the same way as aluminum -- quenching from red
hot results in softening -- not hardening.

Steel wants to cool slowly to soften, though.

[George Patterson]

Jon Woellhaf wrote:
>
> At the last annual, my mechanic showed me how to anneal the copper spark
> plug gaskets before reusing them.
>
> Is this common practice?

New gaskets cost $.19 each, with a 20% discount on a box of 100. Typical charges
for an A&P's time in this neck of the woods are $50/hr and up. I certainly hope
it's not common practice anymore.

George Patterson
He who would distinguish what is true from what is false must have an
adequate understanding of truth and falsehood.

[John Kunkel]

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
...
> At the last annual, my mechanic showed me how to anneal the copper spark
> plug gaskets before reusing them.
>
> Is this common practice?

I don't know how common it is but it's done and it's not that time
consuming.

Mount a steel shaft horizontally in a vise and slide the gaskets to the vise
end. Below the open end of the shaft place a coffee can full of water. Slide
the gaskets out to near the open end of the shaft, heat them red, then slide
them off the end and they fall into the water.

Including setup time you can do 100 gaskets in about 10 minutes.

[Jon A.]

On 11 Feb 2005 07:09:31 -0800, wrote:

> Copper gaskets can be annealed by heating red hot and quenching in
>cold water. They can be reused three or four times this way until their
>diameter gets too large from being squashed. Using used, unannealed
>gaskets can result in small leaks, and a leaking plug can carry carbon
>into the threads and make it really hard to remove without damaging the
>head's thread socket.
>
> Dan

And you're posting this during a discussion of the question whether or
not an owner can change their own plugs.

Horse - - - Cart
Cart - - - Horse

[Dave Stadt]

"Aaron Coolidge" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
> : Copper gaskets can be annealed by heating red hot and quenching in
> : cold water.
>
> That's how you harden them.
> To anneal them, heat them red hot and let them cool gradually.
> --
> Aaron C.

Ah no.....Orval was 100% correct.

[Dave Stadt]

"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
...
> At the last annual, my mechanic showed me how to anneal the copper spark
> plug gaskets before reusing them.
>
> Is this common practice?
>
>

I take them home and do it in my spare time. Get them red hot with a
propane torch and drop em in a coffee can of cold water.

[[email protected]]

Jon A. wrote:

>And you're posting this during a discussion of the question whether or

>not an owner can change their own plugs.

>Horse - - - Cart
>Cart - - - Horse

So that means that means that wheher the gaskets are annealed or
reused without annealing is irrelevant? That the owner wouldn't benefit
by knowing about using new or annealed gaskets? Come on.

Dan

[RST Engineering]

Oh, please, for the love of God, don't do this. This is how you HARDEN
them, not soften them for the annealing process. Heat them red hot with a
torch and let them cool in ambient air to soften them.

Jim



> the gaskets out to near the open end of the shaft, heat them red, then
> slide them off the end and they fall into the water.

[Jürgen Exner]

[Top=-posting corrected]
RST Engineering wrote:
>> the gaskets out to near the open end of the shaft, heat them red,
>> then slide them off the end and they fall into the water.

> Oh, please, for the love of God, don't do this. This is how you
> HARDEN them, not soften them for the annealing process. Heat them
> red hot with a torch and let them cool in ambient air to soften them.

Well, I guess this depends upon if your gaskets are made of copper or of
iron/steal.
Although, I've never seen gaskets made of iron but of course nothing is
impossible.

jue

[John Clonts]

> wrote in message oups.com...
> Jon A. wrote:
>
>>And you're posting this during a discussion of the question whether or
>
>>not an owner can change their own plugs.
>
>>Horse - - - Cart
>>Cart - - - Horse
>
> So that means that means that wheher the gaskets are annealed or
> reused without annealing is irrelevant? That the owner wouldn't benefit
> by knowing about using new or annealed gaskets? Come on.
>
> Dan
>

Well, I have learned from elsewhere in this thread that NEW gaskets are DEFINITELY the way to go since there is
debate as to whether the proper treatment of used gaskets is to include cold water quenching or ambient air
cooling...

Cheers!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[[email protected]]

I just did a google search on the subject of copper annealing, and I
found this article.

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/copperwi.htm

I can say that I used to rebuild motorcycle engines, and most of them
had solid copper head gaskets. I would anneal them by heating to red
hot and then dropping in a water bucket. They seemed to be much softer
afterward and did not leak so I guess that is a proper way to do it
(whatever works, right?). According to the article, you can use either
method, but he recommends water quenchung to minimize oxidation.

Regards,
Bruce Cunningham
N30464 C177A

[Montblack]

("Jürgen Exner" wrote)
>> Oh, please, for the love of God, don't do this. This is how you
>> HARDEN them, not soften them for the annealing process. Heat them
>> red hot with a torch and let them cool in ambient air to soften them.

> Well, I guess this depends upon if your gaskets are made of copper or of
> iron/steal.
> Although, I've never seen gaskets made of iron but of course nothing is
> impossible.


Saw this link after a few Googles.
It shows that others have had this same discussion.

http://www.steamengine.com.au/ic/faq/annealing-copper.html
It made into their FAQ's :-)


Montblack

[Matt Whiting]

John Clonts wrote:
> > wrote in message oups.com...
>
>>Jon A. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>And you're posting this during a discussion of the question whether or
>>
>>>not an owner can change their own plugs.
>>
>>>Horse - - - Cart
>>>Cart - - - Horse
>>
>>So that means that means that wheher the gaskets are annealed or
>>reused without annealing is irrelevant? That the owner wouldn't benefit
>>by knowing about using new or annealed gaskets? Come on.
>>
>>Dan
>>
>
>
> Well, I have learned from elsewhere in this thread that NEW gaskets are DEFINITELY the way to go since there is
> debate as to whether the proper treatment of used gaskets is to include cold water quenching or ambient air
> cooling...

Debate aside, the fact is that annealing non-ferrous metals is different
than ferrous metals. Heating and quenching is the way to go for
non-ferrous metals. I have several loading manuals that show this
technique for annealing brass cases (which is mostly copper). You stand
them upright in a tray of water, heat them with a torch and then tip
them over into the water.

Search around on your own and you will find this to be true.

Matt

[Jon A.]

On 11 Feb 2005 16:56:01 -0800, wrote:

> Jon A. wrote:
>
>>And you're posting this during a discussion of the question whether or
>
>>not an owner can change their own plugs.
>
>>Horse - - - Cart
>>Cart - - - Horse
>
> So that means that means that wheher the gaskets are annealed or
>reused without annealing is irrelevant? That the owner wouldn't benefit
>by knowing about using new or annealed gaskets? Come on.
>
> Dan

No, look at the **** it's started. That's exactly what I predicted.

[Jon A.]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:45:53 -0600, "John Clonts"
> wrote:

>
> wrote in message oups.com...
>> Jon A. wrote:
>>
>>>And you're posting this during a discussion of the question whether or
>>
>>>not an owner can change their own plugs.
>>
>>>Horse - - - Cart
>>>Cart - - - Horse
>>
>> So that means that means that wheher the gaskets are annealed or
>> reused without annealing is irrelevant? That the owner wouldn't benefit
>> by knowing about using new or annealed gaskets? Come on.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>
>Well, I have learned from elsewhere in this thread that NEW gaskets are DEFINITELY the way to go since there is
>debate as to whether the proper treatment of used gaskets is to include cold water quenching or ambient air
>cooling...
>
>Cheers!
>John Clonts
>Temple, Texas
>N7NZ
>
And you never know how many times they've been ann - - - , well,
subjected to various types of torture and by whom! ;-)

[Rip]

Of course, these days folks would rather argue ad nauseum about trivia,
rather than get two spark plug gaskets. Anneal one correctly (red heat,
quench in water) and the other incorrectly (red heat and air cool). See
which one comes out clean and soft, and which one comes out black and hard.

Matt Whiting wrote:
> John Clonts wrote:
>
>> > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>
>>> Jon A. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> And you're posting this during a discussion of the question whether or
>>>
>>>
>>>> not an owner can change their own plugs.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Horse - - - Cart
>>>> Cart - - - Horse
>>>
>>>
>>> So that means that means that wheher the gaskets are annealed or
>>> reused without annealing is irrelevant? That the owner wouldn't benefit
>>> by knowing about using new or annealed gaskets? Come on.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>
>>
>> Well, I have learned from elsewhere in this thread that NEW gaskets
>> are DEFINITELY the way to go since there is debate as to whether the
>> proper treatment of used gaskets is to include cold water quenching or
>> ambient air cooling...
>
>
> Debate aside, the fact is that annealing non-ferrous metals is different
> than ferrous metals. Heating and quenching is the way to go for
> non-ferrous metals. I have several loading manuals that show this
> technique for annealing brass cases (which is mostly copper). You stand
> them upright in a tray of water, heat them with a torch and then tip
> them over into the water.
>
> Search around on your own and you will find this to be true.
>
> Matt

[Aaron Coolidge]

Rip > wrote:
: No, copper is annealed by quenching rapidly.


OK, you got me there. As it turns out, copper may be annealed by aircooling
or quenching. To harden copper requires a temperature decrease of about
10,000 degC per second which isn't going to happen if you drop 'em in water.

By the way, you'll never get copper hot enough to anneal with a propane torch.
Oxy-propane, yes.
--
Aaron C.

[Rip]

You don't want to melt the gaskets, just get them red hot. A propane
torch works just fine. And the water quench flakes the oxide off of the
copper, leaving the gaskets nice and clean.

Aaron Coolidge wrote:
> Rip > wrote:
> : No, copper is annealed by quenching rapidly.
>
>
> OK, you got me there. As it turns out, copper may be annealed by aircooling
> or quenching. To harden copper requires a temperature decrease of about
> 10,000 degC per second which isn't going to happen if you drop 'em in water.
>
> By the way, you'll never get copper hot enough to anneal with a propane torch.
> Oxy-propane, yes.

[Chuck]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 09:44:06 -0500, Matt Whiting
> wrote:

>John Clonts wrote:
>> > wrote in message oups.com...
>>
>>>Jon A. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>And you're posting this during a discussion of the question whether or
>>>
>>>>not an owner can change their own plugs.
>>>
>>>>Horse - - - Cart
>>>>Cart - - - Horse
>>>
>>>So that means that means that wheher the gaskets are annealed or
>>>reused without annealing is irrelevant? That the owner wouldn't benefit
>>>by knowing about using new or annealed gaskets? Come on.
>>>
>>>Dan
>>>
>>
>>
>> Well, I have learned from elsewhere in this thread that NEW gaskets are DEFINITELY the way to go since there is
>> debate as to whether the proper treatment of used gaskets is to include cold water quenching or ambient air
>> cooling...
>
>Debate aside, the fact is that annealing non-ferrous metals is different
>than ferrous metals. Heating and quenching is the way to go for
>non-ferrous metals. I have several loading manuals that show this
>technique for annealing brass cases (which is mostly copper). You stand
>them upright in a tray of water, heat them with a torch and then tip
>them over into the water.
>
>Search around on your own and you will find this to be true.
>
>Matt

Matt is right on that one. You stand rifle cases in a pan of water.
The water keeps the bottom of the case at a lower temp so the bottom
doesn't heat/soften. You heat the neck and shoulders of the case with
a torch and then tip them over into the water. It softens the neck
and shoulders without changing the hardness of the base (which has to
be hard to contain the pressure).

Chuck

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

Thanks for saying what I was thinking.

All I want to do is change/rotate the plugs (after sufficient oversight -
one time)

I'll buy bulk gaskets. All I need is a fire for trying to save a few bucks.

Thx, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.

[Don Hammer]

I'm a long time A&P. Back in the old days I used to hang them on a
piece of safety wire, get them red hot, then drop them in water.
Worked great for me and I didn't have to go hunt some up in the stock
room. Of course, for me, the acetylene torch was closer than the
stock room.

[Dave Stadt]

"Victor J. Osborne, Jr." > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for saying what I was thinking.
>
> All I want to do is change/rotate the plugs (after sufficient oversight -
> one time)
>
> I'll buy bulk gaskets. All I need is a fire for trying to save a few
bucks.
>
> Thx, {|;-)
>
> Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.

If you can't heat spark plug gaskets without starting a fire maybe you
should rethink changing/rotating the plugs in your aircraft.

[[email protected]]

When they get too thin they also get too large and slop around
on the plug, giving adequate warning that they should be tossed. Some
of the sparkplug-type CHT thermocouples are thinner than a gasket but
the plug still threads far enough into the head. No gasket is used with
the thermocouple.

Dan

[[email protected]]

>IMHE, they flatten by getting larger in outside >diameter and smaller
>in inside diameter..... they can be a pill to get off >then...
>depending on how far they have ridden up on the >radius between the
>threaded portion and the flange.

The thousands of copper gaskets I have changed have never shrunken
in ID and stuck on the plug. Automobile plug gaskets will, but they're
a hollow gasket that will reduce in ID when compressed. The coppers get
chucked when they get too big on the ID, as all of them eventually do.
I check every gasket before using it, as the annealing process will
blister it if it gets too hot. I use a propane spitfire torch; gets
really warm really quick. Annealing 100 gaskets takes maybe ten
minutes.

Dan

[Michael Houghton]

Howdy!

In article >,
RST Engineering > wrote:
>Oh, please, for the love of God, don't do this. This is how you HARDEN
>them, not soften them for the annealing process. Heat them red hot with a
>torch and let them cool in ambient air to soften them.
>
Copper and silver (and probably many other non-ferrous metals) are annealed
by quenching. You can't harden them by heat treatment. You harden them by
working them. Yes, this is opposite to how you harden/soften steel.

Google for "anneal copper". One site I found was
http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article25.htm
which seems to cover more than just annealing work-hardened copper.

Now, one can fairly wonder why one would want to reuse old gaskets when
they can be bought fairly inexpensively, but that is a different matter.

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/wwap/