Radio license required?

[Marty Ross]

When I first learned the memory aid for required documents, it was "ARROW".

When I inquired why sometimes I saw "AROW", I remember being told that the
second "R" was dropped because while flying within the USA you don't need
the "Radio License".

I glanced through the FAR/AIM and couldn't quickly put my finger on this, so
I'm putting it out here: what's the deal on this? I have seen what may be
conflicting indications about this -- for instance, in the thread about ramp
checks, etc.

When do you need the "Radio License" document, and who cares about it (e.g.,
is the FAA or the FCC)?

[Hendrik G. Seliger]

> one ever checks for it. It is an FCC requirement. The FAA in the United
> States and its corresponding agencies in other countries do not feel it is
> their responsibility to enforce FCC rules. Neither do the different
> countries' customs and immigration agencies. And the radio licensing

Assume that if you're ramp-checked in Germany with a N-reg aircraft they
*will* ask for the radio station license (and your radio operator permit as
well). It's a) cultural and b) N-reg planes go around some certification
req's in Europe, so there is a "case" ...

[Dave Martindale]

"C J Campbell" > writes:
>The radio license requirement was dropped, IIRC, in 1998 for domestic
>flights. You are still supposed to have it for international flights, but no
>one ever checks for it. It is an FCC requirement. The FAA in the United
>States and its corresponding agencies in other countries do not feel it is
>their responsibility to enforce FCC rules. Neither do the different
>countries' customs and immigration agencies. And the radio licensing
>authorities do not feel they have the time or budget to go chasing after
>airplanes that do not have radio licenses.

In the case of Canada, at least, the requirement of a radio licence for
aircraft and boats (small private boats at least) was dropped some time
ago - probably about the same time that the USA did it. So, in this
case, it's not that nobody is enforcing the rules, the rules have
disappeared.

But other countries haven't dropped the requirement, so you're still
supposed to have the licence for flights outside the US and Canada (and
maybe Mexico; don't know about that one).

Dave

[Cub Driver]

>When do you need the "Radio License" document

A pilot using the comm gear in a lightplane doesn't need a license
from the FCC. The mnemonic I think now has one less R for that reason.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm
Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub

[Marty Ross]

Where are these regs (required documents onboard) anyways?

As I said, I couldn't (quickly) find them in the FAR/AIM.

"Marty Ross" > wrote in message
...
> When I first learned the memory aid for required documents, it was
"ARROW".
>
> When I inquired why sometimes I saw "AROW", I remember being told that the
> second "R" was dropped because while flying within the USA you don't need
> the "Radio License".
>
> I glanced through the FAR/AIM and couldn't quickly put my finger on this,
so
> I'm putting it out here: what's the deal on this? I have seen what may be
> conflicting indications about this -- for instance, in the thread about
ramp
> checks, etc.
>
> When do you need the "Radio License" document, and who cares about it
(e.g.,
> is the FAA or the FCC)?
>
>
>

[Michael Shnitzer]

When the license requirement was around in the US was that a license for the
person or a license for airplane? Would a ham radio license have covered
the pilot back then?

--Mike

"Marty Ross" > wrote in message
...
> Where are these regs (required documents onboard) anyways?
>
> As I said, I couldn't (quickly) find them in the FAR/AIM.
>
> "Marty Ross" > wrote in message
> ...
> > When I first learned the memory aid for required documents, it was
> "ARROW".
> >
> > When I inquired why sometimes I saw "AROW", I remember being told that
the
> > second "R" was dropped because while flying within the USA you don't
need
> > the "Radio License".
> >
> > I glanced through the FAR/AIM and couldn't quickly put my finger on
this,
> so
> > I'm putting it out here: what's the deal on this? I have seen what may
be
> > conflicting indications about this -- for instance, in the thread about
> ramp
> > checks, etc.
> >
> > When do you need the "Radio License" document, and who cares about it
> (e.g.,
> > is the FAA or the FCC)?
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Jim Weir]

"Michael Shnitzer" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->When the license requirement was around in the US was that a license for the
->person or a license for airplane?

Both.

The very early licenses I had for the airplane was a "VHF Transmitter". It
wasn't very long after that that transponders became the vogue, and you had to
get an endorsed license for "pulse equipment" on the license. Fortunately, this
covered the DME as well.

The pilot had to have a radiotelephone operator's permit. Again, back in the
very early days (pre-60) it involved a short written or oral test (I really
don't remember which, because I never had to take it) for a "restricted third
class operator's permit". Those of us who went on and got second or first class
permits because we needed them in our work never bothered with the restricted
third.


Would a ham radio license have covered
->the pilot back then?


Only if he was operating aircraft mobile on the ham bands. Not for aircraft
band.

Jim
Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jack]

You are correct. ROP (Radio Operators Permit/Radio Telephone Permit) is
not required for Domestic communications. It is required for international
however. It is an FCC license, not an FAA license. I know all of this
cause I have one.



"Marty Ross" > wrote in message
...
> When I first learned the memory aid for required documents, it was
"ARROW".
>
> When I inquired why sometimes I saw "AROW", I remember being told that the
> second "R" was dropped because while flying within the USA you don't need
> the "Radio License".
>
> I glanced through the FAR/AIM and couldn't quickly put my finger on this,
so
> I'm putting it out here: what's the deal on this? I have seen what may be
> conflicting indications about this -- for instance, in the thread about
ramp
> checks, etc.
>
> When do you need the "Radio License" document, and who cares about it
(e.g.,
> is the FAA or the FCC)?
>
>
>

[gross_arrow]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message >...
> "Marty Ross" > wrote in message ...
> > Where are these regs (required documents onboard) anyways?
> >
> > As I said, I couldn't (quickly) find them in the FAR/AIM.
> >
> Airworthiness certificate: 91.203(a)(1)
> Registration: 91.203(a)(2)
> Operating Limitations: 91.9
> Weight and Balance: Not specifically mentioned by the FAR. It is usually either
> specifically required by the type certificate or it's part of the flight manual (operating
> limitations).


i'd like to advance the argument that the weight & balance are
operating limitations, and hence covered under 91.9. though there
is not a specific requirement for the documents, it would be difficult
to demonstrate that you were operating within the limitations without
those documents.

mho,

g_a



>
> The radio (station) license is in 47 CFR 87.18 (FCC Regulations for Aviation).

[gross_arrow]

Jim Weir > wrote in message >...

> Those of us who went on and got second or first class
> permits because we needed them in our work never bothered with the restricted
> third.
>

> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)


yeah, except the stupid flight school where i went didn't
understand the fcc rules, and wouldn't buy my second phone
as acceptable, so i wound up getting a restricted third
also. i was actually sort of surprised that they issued
me one, since i already held the second, but i guess they
don't check their records all that carefully.

g_a

[Ron Natalie]

"gross_arrow" > wrote in message om...
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message >...
> > "Marty Ross" > wrote in message ...
> > > Where are these regs (required documents onboard) anyways?
> > >
> > > As I said, I couldn't (quickly) find them in the FAR/AIM.
> > >
> > Airworthiness certificate: 91.203(a)(1)
> > Registration: 91.203(a)(2)
> > Operating Limitations: 91.9
> > Weight and Balance: Not specifically mentioned by the FAR. It is usually either
> > specifically required by the type certificate or it's part of the flight manual (operating
> > limitations).
>
>
> i'd like to advance the argument that the weight & balance are
> operating limitations, and hence covered under 91.9. though there
> is not a specific requirement for the documents, it would be difficult
> to demonstrate that you were operating within the limitations without
> those documents.
>
I believe that is what I said. Thats why ARROW is a sucky acronym (even before
the second R became moot). There's no specific, seperate callout for the W&B.
If you have an AFM, it most likely has to be up to date with all kinds of things including
the W&B and that won't be a seperate thing. For my plane, the type certificate
specifically says I gotta have two things in the plane:

1. A book called Operating Limitations.
2. An equipment list.

I've also got some flight manual supplements to a non-existant flight manual that
came with some STC's.