Landing a warrior

[Dan Moos]

I am a 130 hour PP, and the bulk of my time is in various cessnas (152s and
172's) I've always thought myself decent at landing

Until now. I've recently joined a flying club that has a c182 and a warrior.
My my last 20 or so hours are in the warrior. I bet I 've gotten as few as
5 landings that I'm proud of in that time. Nothing dangerous, just massive
floating, followed by clunking it in with maybe even a bounce or 2. Usually
just one. I'm aware of the inhanced ground effect present in a low-wing
plane. I fly my aproaches at around 65 knots with the second noch of flaps.
I seem to have similar struggles with no and full flaps.

Again, these are all landings that my passengers think are great. I'm just
used to getting great results in the cessnas, and wish to do the same in the
warrior.

[john smith]

Dan Moos wrote:
> Until now. I've recently joined a flying club that has a c182 and a warrior.
> My my last 20 or so hours are in the warrior. I bet I 've gotten as few as
> 5 landings that I'm proud of in that time. Nothing dangerous, just massive
> floating, followed by clunking it in with maybe even a bounce or 2. Usually
> just one. I'm aware of the inhanced ground effect present in a low-wing
> plane. I fly my aproaches at around 65 knots with the second noch of flaps.
> I seem to have similar struggles with no and full flaps.

You didn't mention if you are doing power-on or power-off approaches. In
a Warrior, unless you are following other traffic around the pattern,
your approaches should all be power off.

If you are floating, you are too fast.
1.3Vso is fine coming down final, but by the time you get to the runway
threshold, you need to have bled the airspeed off to about five knots
above stall. Holding pitch attitude as the airspeed bleeds off will
allow the aircraft to settle predictably onto the runway. Continue to
hold the nose off the runway until the elevator loses effectiveness
unless you are braking for short field landings. Braking will cause the
nose wheel to slam onto the runway.

[Robert M. Gary]

As a CFI I've done a few privates in the Warrior. Its one of my
favorite planes and I'd take it over a 172 any day. It sounds like
your landings are too fast. Slow it down a bit more and you'll kill
some of the float. Killing the float will help prevent you from
flaring too high since the flare will mesh better with the approach.
That should get rid of the clunking. At worse, it doesn't sound like
anything that couldn't be fixed with an hour of dual. Also, make sure
when you do drop it in, pull the elevator back to the stops, don't
smash that nose wheel, they are very fragile.

-Robert, CFI



"Dan Moos" > wrote in message >...
> I am a 130 hour PP, and the bulk of my time is in various cessnas (152s and
> 172's) I've always thought myself decent at landing
>
> Until now. I've recently joined a flying club that has a c182 and a warrior.
> My my last 20 or so hours are in the warrior. I bet I 've gotten as few as
> 5 landings that I'm proud of in that time. Nothing dangerous, just massive
> floating, followed by clunking it in with maybe even a bounce or 2. Usually
> just one. I'm aware of the inhanced ground effect present in a low-wing
> plane. I fly my aproaches at around 65 knots with the second noch of flaps.
> I seem to have similar struggles with no and full flaps.
>
> Again, these are all landings that my passengers think are great. I'm just
> used to getting great results in the cessnas, and wish to do the same in the
> warrior.

[Bob Gardner]

My Warrior book says 63 knots, but who's counting? Why not full flaps???? I
have a zillion hours instructing in Cherokees/Warriors and I can't remember
ever teaching a student to use two notches for landing.

Bob Gardner

"Dan Moos" > wrote in message
...
> I am a 130 hour PP, and the bulk of my time is in various cessnas (152s
and
> 172's) I've always thought myself decent at landing
>
> Until now. I've recently joined a flying club that has a c182 and a
warrior.
> My my last 20 or so hours are in the warrior. I bet I 've gotten as few
as
> 5 landings that I'm proud of in that time. Nothing dangerous, just massive
> floating, followed by clunking it in with maybe even a bounce or 2.
Usually
> just one. I'm aware of the inhanced ground effect present in a low-wing
> plane. I fly my aproaches at around 65 knots with the second noch of
flaps.
> I seem to have similar struggles with no and full flaps.
>
> Again, these are all landings that my passengers think are great. I'm just
> used to getting great results in the cessnas, and wish to do the same in
the
> warrior.
>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> You didn't mention if you are doing power-on or power-off approaches. In
> a Warrior, unless you are following other traffic around the pattern,
> your approaches should all be power off.

???

I don't think I ever landed our Warrior power off, in the 450 hours we put
on her...even on short fields.

Carry a little power into the flare -- you'll be amazed at the greasers you
can pull off!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> My Warrior book says 63 knots, but who's counting? Why not full flaps????
I
> have a zillion hours instructing in Cherokees/Warriors and I can't
remember
> ever teaching a student to use two notches for landing.

The only time to use two notches is (a) in strong cross winds or (b) in
squirrelly high winds.

While it's not necessary, two notches give you a flatter, slightly faster
approach that lets you "bust through" the cross wind or wind shear a bit
better than the steeper, slower full-flaps approach...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[EDR]

In article >, Neal
> wrote:
> Hmmmm, I use two notches to land all the time. All three notches and
> my hershybar-wing Cherokee points the nose down so much more steeply
> then I lose too much energy in the flare and clumsily drop it on the
> mains with a thud.

Don't commit the last notch of flaps until you are over the threshold,
then use pitch trim to reduce elevator pressure.

[Bob Gardner]

Well, I've graduated a lot of students over the years, and to the best of my
knowledge none of them has ever had a landing accident. Normal landings are
full-flap landings, even in a crosswind...minimum touchdown speed is the
key, with anti-xwind controls. Page 5-24 of my Warrior book ("Landing
Performance") is predicated on full flaps, power off, and max braking. The
chart is NOT labeled "short field landing." Page 4-14, under normal
procedures for approach and landing, hedges a bit...still calls for full
flaps and 63, but allows as how enough power should be carried to maintain
the desired speed and approach path (no argument there). No mention of
crosswind technique, but when Boeing Field had a 60 degree xwind at 15-20
knots or so I would call my students and say "Come on down....we're gonna do
some full-flap crosswind landings."

You can do lots of things in a low-wing airplane that would be questionable
in a high-wing airplane.

Did I mention that I was an examiner when I worked at the Piper FBO?

Bob Gardner


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:TFS_a.146359$YN5.95266@sccrnsc01...
> > My Warrior book says 63 knots, but who's counting? Why not full
flaps????
> I
> > have a zillion hours instructing in Cherokees/Warriors and I can't
> remember
> > ever teaching a student to use two notches for landing.
>
> The only time to use two notches is (a) in strong cross winds or (b) in
> squirrelly high winds.
>
> While it's not necessary, two notches give you a flatter, slightly faster
> approach that lets you "bust through" the cross wind or wind shear a bit
> better than the steeper, slower full-flaps approach...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Dan Moos > wrote:
>My my last 20 or so hours are in the warrior. I bet I 've gotten as few as
>5 landings that I'm proud of in that time. Nothing dangerous, just massive
>floating, followed by clunking it in with maybe even a bounce or 2.
[...]
>used to getting great results in the cessnas, and wish to do the same in the

I'm transitioning from 172's to a Comanche right now. The mistake I
keep making is rounding out too high. I know how a landing is going
to turn out way before I touch down. My last landing I distinctly
remember the "ooh, that's just right" followed by rolling it on. Now
I've got to make that happen every time.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Roger Halstead]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:19:48 -0500, Nick Funk >
wrote:

>Speed control is the key factor for stabilized approach and landing any
>plane. With the Warrior I cross the numbers at a speed no greater then
>70 knots, and usually try for 65 knots with 1 or 2 knotches of flaps.
>This will keep floating to a minimum. If you need a little more time to
>stabilize after the flare, than give yourself a few more extra knots of
>speed.
I used to fly a Cherokee 180. I always used full flaps and never had a
problem with float. With full flaps that sucker comes down like a
brick. I'd apply the last notch of flaps in the roundout., unless it
was a short field and then it was full flaps coming down a *steep*
final.

Any float is a sign of too much speed.

>
>I used to rent planes and switching from a C-152, C172, C-182 and
>Warriors or Cherokees (hersey bar wing) gave me the opportunity to learn
>the different idiosyncrasies of landing each plane. I miss that now
>since I own a Cherokee 180 now.

I loved that old Cherokee 180. Climbed great and could land in a
pretty short distance. It was light enough with enough power it could
get into and out of some pretty small grass strips.

The only problem I ever had was cleaning the green goo off the wing
from a few tall weeds here and there.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
>
>
>Nick
>PA-28-180 'D'
>
<snip>

[Roger Halstead]

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:54:11 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> My Warrior book says 63 knots, but who's counting? Why not full flaps????
>I
>> have a zillion hours instructing in Cherokees/Warriors and I can't
>remember
>> ever teaching a student to use two notches for landing.
>
>The only time to use two notches is (a) in strong cross winds or (b) in
>squirrelly high winds.
>

I used full flaps regardless. It's what I was taught and it always
worked well. OTOH that approach may not be for everyone...At that
time the instructors here used the same as the FAA at the time.."If
yah got 'em, use 'em".

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

>While it's not necessary, two notches give you a flatter, slightly faster
>approach that lets you "bust through" the cross wind or wind shear a bit
>better than the steeper, slower full-flaps approach...

[jeff]

ya the warrior is bad about floating. what I do when I fly one now is similar to
how I land my arrow, I dont really flare, just a few seconds before touching
down, I pull back only slightly onthe yoke so the mains touch first then as soon
as they touch I pull back more to keep the weight off the nose wheel. keeping
your nose low untill just before the mains touch down and only a slight flare
will help you break through the ground effect better. the more you flare the
more you float.

Dan Moos wrote:

> I am a 130 hour PP, and the bulk of my time is in various cessnas (152s and
> 172's) I've always thought myself decent at landing
>
> Until now. I've recently joined a flying club that has a c182 and a warrior.
> My my last 20 or so hours are in the warrior. I bet I 've gotten as few as
> 5 landings that I'm proud of in that time. Nothing dangerous, just massive
> floating, followed by clunking it in with maybe even a bounce or 2. Usually
> just one. I'm aware of the inhanced ground effect present in a low-wing
> plane. I fly my aproaches at around 65 knots with the second noch of flaps.
> I seem to have similar struggles with no and full flaps.
>
> Again, these are all landings that my passengers think are great. I'm just
> used to getting great results in the cessnas, and wish to do the same in the
> warrior.

[jeff]

you guys are gonna stall those things.
I land the warrior at 80 kts and 2 notches of flaps.. 57 kts..no way.....short
final is suppose to be 65 kts in a warrior II ..

William Plummer wrote:

> The PA28-161 POH I had said Vs0 is 44 kts. 1.3 * 44=57, which is the FAA
> recommended speed on final approach. That's exactly what my instructor
> insisted on when I was doing the short field landings (on a 1500' runway!).

[Hilton]

William Plummer wrote:
> The PA28-161 POH I had said Vs0 is 44 kts. 1.3 * 44=57, which is the FAA
> recommended speed on final approach.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe the FAA recommends the 1.3 factor
only if the approach speed is not stated in the POH/AFM.

Hilton

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:46:23 -0700, jeff > wrote:

>you guys are gonna stall those things.

Why would you stall?

POH says: Short Field take-off @ 25deg flap is accelerate and maintain
44-52KIAS (depending on weight) until clear of obstacle. Can't see how
you can stall at 57Kt and 40 deg flap, especially when landing and
coming into ground effect.

>I land the warrior at 80 kts and 2 notches of flaps.. 57 kts..no way.....short
>final is suppose to be 65 kts in a warrior II ..
>

Are you really meaning Kts or mph?

Our 1979 Warrior II says 63Kt at threshold and FULL flap (assuming
little X-Wind). Why use higher speed on landing it can only wear the
tyres out and require more braking on a short runway? More speed and
you float.


>William Plummer wrote:
>
>> The PA28-161 POH I had said Vs0 is 44 kts. 1.3 * 44=57, which is the FAA
>> recommended speed on final approach. That's exactly what my instructor
>> insisted on when I was doing the short field landings (on a 1500' runway!).



E-mail (Remove Space after pilot): pilot

[Mark Astley]

I always carry a little power in my PA28-140 into the landing, but there are
definitely two schools of thought about this. Whatever side of the debate
you fall on, I think everyone will agree that you should occasionally
practice the power-off variant for the day when murphy is your copilot.

I trained exclusively in C-172's, then transitioned to a rental warrior, as
well as a 182RG, then finally purchased my 140. I had the hardest time
learning to land in the 140! Here's my observations:

- you sit lower in cherokees, this will fool you a few times if you're used
to skyhawks
- with full flaps, the hershey bar cherokees come down like a brick. if
you're going power-off, use a steeper approach.
- i approach between 65 and 70 in my cherokee, whereas skyhawks are quite
comfortable at 60. slower landings in a cherokee with full flaps are hard
to squeak (at least for me). this seems to be a feature of the hershey bar
as I never had this problem in the warrior.
- floating: i actually had more problems floating in the 172 than the
warrior, go figure. in the 140, any floating will come from excess
airspeed. it seems to be easier (for me), to stick in a short landing using
power-off with a steep approach.

For what it's worth, it seems hard to make a great or terrible landing in
the cherokee. Most of my landings are average with the occasional clunker
and the occasional greaser.

mark

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:ZCS_a.146353$YN5.95317@sccrnsc01...
> > You didn't mention if you are doing power-on or power-off approaches. In
> > a Warrior, unless you are following other traffic around the pattern,
> > your approaches should all be power off.
>
> ???
>
> I don't think I ever landed our Warrior power off, in the 450 hours we put
> on her...even on short fields.
>
> Carry a little power into the flare -- you'll be amazed at the greasers
you
> can pull off!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"jeff" > wrote in message ...
> ya the warrior is bad about floating.

Well, no big surprise if you're actually flying it 80 knots on final.

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:38:14 -0700, jeff > wrote:

>ya the warrior is bad about floating. what I do when I fly one now is similar to
>how I land my arrow, I dont really flare, just a few seconds before touching
>down, I pull back only slightly onthe yoke so the mains touch first then as soon
>as they touch I pull back more to keep the weight off the nose wheel. keeping
>your nose low untill just before the mains touch down and only a slight flare
>will help you break through the ground effect better. the more you flare the
>more you float.

Then you are too fast.

Flown by the book they are easy to land and no floating.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)
<snip>

[Robert M. Gary]

"John Harper" > wrote in message news:<1060971975.830175@sj-nntpcache-3>...
> I've only got 0.8 hrs in a Cherokee, but as a mainly-Cessna pilot
> with some low wing time (SR20, Grob, Mooney) I do think there
> is a distinct difference in landing technique between low and high
> wing planes. The Cessnas (152, 172, 182, 182RG) land nicely in
> almost a full-stall attitude (or even true full-stall). I've never managed
> a nice landing in a low-wing plane that way - it can be done but I've
> also always been told not to try. What seems to work well is a fairly
> flat flare and just let the plane drift onto the runway.

I always land my Mooney full stall, horn blaring, yoke to the stops as
the wheels hit. I think its easier in a low wing because you get a
soft cushion as you flare rather than the drop of a high wing.

-Robert

[john smith]

John Harper wrote:
>
> I've only got 0.8 hrs in a Cherokee, but as a mainly-Cessna pilot
> with some low wing time (SR20, Grob, Mooney) I do think there
> is a distinct difference in landing technique between low and high
> wing planes. The Cessnas (152, 172, 182, 182RG) land nicely in
> almost a full-stall attitude (or even true full-stall). I've never managed
> a nice landing in a low-wing plane that way - it can be done but I've
> also always been told not to try. What seems to work well is a fairly
> flat flare and just let the plane drift onto the runway.

Get some tailwheel training.
That will teach you how to make full stall landings in any airplane you
fly.

[john smith]

jeff wrote:
> you guys are gonna stall those things.
> I land the warrior at 80 kts and 2 notches of flaps.. 57 kts..no way.....short
> final is suppose to be 65 kts in a warrior II ..

An accident waiting to happen...
If you are on the runway at 80 kts, how much forward pressure are you
putting on the yoke to keep the wheels on the ground?

[Dave]

Bob, you must have known my flight instructor. I started my flight
training in warriors in 1984 in Ocean City, NJ. I think they widened
the runway since then. There was almost always a healthy crosswind.
Landings were full flaps just as you describe. Crosswind technique
was crab, then slip and land on the upwind wheel, with full flaps.
Third notch after established on final. I never understood why in a
crosswind people want to go faster. I guess it's whatever you're
comfortable with. Despite my best efforts, I'm still a renter and I
always try to land as slow as safely possible to help wear and tear on
the tired old birds I fly.
Dave
"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message news:<2mW_a.145947$o%2.62355@sccrnsc02>...
> Well, I've graduated a lot of students over the years, and to the best of my
> knowledge none of them has ever had a landing accident. Normal landings are
> full-flap landings, even in a crosswind...minimum touchdown speed is the
> key, with anti-xwind controls. Page 5-24 of my Warrior book ("Landing
> Performance") is predicated on full flaps, power off, and max braking. The
> chart is NOT labeled "short field landing." Page 4-14, under normal
> procedures for approach and landing, hedges a bit...still calls for full
> flaps and 63, but allows as how enough power should be carried to maintain
> the desired speed and approach path (no argument there). No mention of
> crosswind technique, but when Boeing Field had a 60 degree xwind at 15-20
> knots or so I would call my students and say "Come on down....we're gonna do
> some full-flap crosswind landings."
>
> You can do lots of things in a low-wing airplane that would be questionable
> in a high-wing airplane.
>
> Did I mention that I was an examiner when I worked at the Piper FBO?
>
> Bob Gardner

[Jay Honeck]

> I always land my Mooney full stall, horn blaring, yoke to the stops as
> the wheels hit. I think its easier in a low wing because you get a
> soft cushion as you flare rather than the drop of a high wing.

I've found that using this technique in our Pathfinder -- which is fairly
nose-heavy, having an O-540 6-cylinder engine -- will usually result in a
pronounced nosewheel drop unless you nail it absolutely perfectly. Thus, we
usually land with a little power, at a flatter angle of attack.

This is quite different than the Warrior, which has relatively dainty
landing characteristics by comparison. (Although we still usually landed it
with a bit of power, at a flatter angle, just for better visibility over the
nose. This is a big deal for Mary, at five-foot-nuthin' tall...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Duane MacInnis]

Floater? Did you say floater? Just try coming in a bit fast with a well
waxed Grumman without flaps... You can watch 2000 feet of asphalt under
your behind go by at 50 kts. Add some crosswind, and make it fun.

++++++++++++++
Duane MacInnis
Flight Instructor
Cell (604) 454-7415
www.macinnisaviation.com


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Ssq%a.157604$uu5.23645@sccrnsc04...
> > - floating: i actually had more problems floating in the 172 than the
> > warrior, go figure.
>
> Me, too.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Snowbird]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<Ssq%a.157604$uu5.23645@sccrnsc04>...
> > - floating: i actually had more problems floating in the 172 than the
> > warrior, go figure.

> Me, too.

As my CFI used to say:

"If you float, you've got too much airspeed. Fix it."

A C172 with one person and partial fuel, landed at "book" speeds
instead of weight-adjusted speeds, will float.

Ditto for a Warrior IME

If you really want to see float, try landing a Grumman w/ "5 knots
for Grandma and 5 knots 'cuz I was nervous and I think more speed
is safer" tacked on.

Cheers,
Sydney

[David Megginson]

"Dan Moos" > writes:

> Again, these are all landings that my passengers think are
> great. I'm just used to getting great results in the cessnas, and
> wish to do the same in the warrior.

The 172 floats longer than the Warrior does in the flare -- I'm not
sure why (given the 172's high wings), but it does. The Warrior will
drop sooner and harder, unless you have a little extra energy to ease
it down at the last second (on the bright side, at least it's the
mains and not the nose that drop). I have found two ways to get that
extra energy for a smooth touchdown:

1. Just as the flare is running out and the mains are about to drop,
add a tiny bit of power to ease the plane down.

2. Don't do a gradual roundout like you would in a 172; instead,
continue your descent, at normal approach speed, until just before the
runway, then do a fast and short flare very close to the pavement.

#1 is the easier technique, so you might want to try it first.


Best of luck,


David

PA-28-161 C-FBJO

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

[David Megginson]

"Bob Gardner" > writes:

> My Warrior book says 63 knots, but who's counting? Why not full
> flaps???? I have a zillion hours instructing in Cherokees/Warriors
> and I can't remember ever teaching a student to use two notches for
> landing.

Right, always full flaps. Renters might not care, but we owners know
who's paying for the rubber (not to mention any broken runway lights
or bent wings).

I usually have two notches of flaps on long final, and add the third
notch over the fence (which usually pitches me up just enough to get
from 70 kias to 63 kias).


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/

[David Megginson]

"William Plummer" > writes:

> The PA28-161 POH I had said Vs0 is 44 kts. 1.3 * 44=57, which is
> the FAA recommended speed on final approach.

You have to watch airspeed calibration errors near the stall. VSo for
the PA-28-161 at maximum gross weight is 50 kcas (44 kias), and 1.3 *
50 = 65 kcas (63 kias).

> That's exactly what my instructor insisted on when I was doing the
> short field landings (on a 1500' runway!).

You were fine then, because stall speed is lower that far below
gross weight.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson, , http://www.megginson.com/