Re: Full before landing checklist in the pattern?

[Tony Roberts]

> How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

Hi BoDean

I do, and I believe that CFI's should teach this. Here is why.
Forget the 152/172 for the purpose of this discussion. To better and more
obviously illustrate the point let's assume that we are in a retractable.
If on every single approach we know that the gear is up, then we know, and
are reminded by our checklists, to put it down prior to landing. But what
if we are just doing pattern work, and decide not to raise the gear on
takeoff? Now we have created a scenario where on final approach our gear
is no longer guaranteed up. It may be up and it may be down - and one day
we'll get it wrong - we didn't need to create that situation!
Now to go back to your 152/172 Scenario. If everything is always a given,
we know where we stand. But if we teach students one way in a circuit, and
another way on a cross country, then we are sowing the seeds of confusion.
Something that we don't need on final, when we are tired after a long
flight.
So - the pre-landing checklist for a 172 is no big deal. It isn't being
abbreviated for the students benefit, therefore it must be being
abbreviated because the instructor can't be bothered with the workload.
That shouldn't be happening.

That's my 2 - 3 cents worth :)

--
Tony Roberts )
PP-ASEL
VFR-OTT - Night
Cessna 172H

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
BoDEAN > wrote:

> How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
>
>

The landing checklist should be second nature, as the pattern is no
place to have your head down, buried in a checklist!

[Mike O'Malley]

"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
>

Personally, I am not a fan of the full landing checklist in the patter
philosophy. What I do, and how it was explained to me, was the before landing
checklist is completed before you enter the pattern, and at some point in the
pattern, review on downwind a quick check: gas, undercarrige, mixture, prop.
Then on short final, review gear down and prop set.

My rationale- you will not always be flying a traffic pattern. When breaking
out of an approach or getting vectored into a controlled field, you often times
will land straight-in. In this situation, it would be very easy to miss the
landing checklist, because you always do it on downwind. Other times, in
faster, more complex aircraft, your landing checklist might not fit on downwind
a 152 is mags, carb heat, mixture, fuel; I can get that in a few seconds;
something more complex might take longer and not fit.

There will always be an "approaching the airport" leg to do the landing
checklist in, and always be a short final to check the last minute "gotcha's"
At least that's my philosophy, take it for what it's worth.

--
Mike

[Steve Robertson]

Seat belts, gas on, mixture, carb heat, land. How can you do any more or
any less in a Cessna 172/152/150? Please enlighten me.

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft Musketeer Super III
(Seat belts, gas fullest tank, mixture, land for this plane)

BoDEAN wrote:

> How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

[Corky Scott]

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:16:36 -0500, BoDEAN
> wrote:

>How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
>doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
>use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
>
>
I recently gained my PPL. I don't recall doing the landing checklist
in the pattern ever. Even when I first started lessons in 1964 in a
carburated C172 and I was 15 and a half, we didn't use a checklist.
Carb heat was the only "MUST DO".

What's to check? Flaps? You use them or not, depending on the
circumstances. Mixture? Some leave it in the lean position from
cruise all the way down to touchdown, most go to full rich prior to
entering the pattern. Engine was fuel injected so no carb heat to
worry about.

What else is there for the fixed gear 172?

Personally, I'd prefer to keep my eyes outside the cockpit while in
the pattern.

Corky Scott

PS, yes there was a 40 year span during which I did not pursue the
pilot's license.

[Bob Gardner]

I don't like situational instruction, where one action is required under one
set of circumstances and a different action is required under a different
set of circumstances. Teach one procedure that works all the time.

Bob Gardner

"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
>
>

[Bob Gardner]

A checklist doesn't mean that you have to do something, just that you should
think about it. Your mention of flaps is a good example...FLAPS should be
part of the landing checklist, and it means "what flap setting, if any?"

This does not contradict my reply to BoDean.

Bob Gardner

"Corky Scott" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:16:36 -0500, BoDEAN
> > wrote:
>
> >How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> >doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> >use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
> >
> >
> I recently gained my PPL. I don't recall doing the landing checklist
> in the pattern ever. Even when I first started lessons in 1964 in a
> carburated C172 and I was 15 and a half, we didn't use a checklist.
> Carb heat was the only "MUST DO".
>
> What's to check? Flaps? You use them or not, depending on the
> circumstances. Mixture? Some leave it in the lean position from
> cruise all the way down to touchdown, most go to full rich prior to
> entering the pattern. Engine was fuel injected so no carb heat to
> worry about.
>
> What else is there for the fixed gear 172?
>
> Personally, I'd prefer to keep my eyes outside the cockpit while in
> the pattern.
>
> Corky Scott
>
> PS, yes there was a 40 year span during which I did not pursue the
> pilot's license.

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article >,
BoDEAN > wrote:
>How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
>doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
>use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

Define 'full'? I mostly fly C152 and GUMP pretty much covers
everything. I do speed/flaps as I fly the pattern.

[Newps]

Steve Robertson wrote:

> Seat belts, gas on, mixture, carb heat, land. How can you do any more or
> any less in a Cessna 172/152/150? Please enlighten me.

Skip the seatbelts. Probably the gas too in a 172.

[David Megginson]

('Vejita' S. Cousin) writes:

> Define 'full'? I mostly fly C152 and GUMP pretty much covers
> everything. I do speed/flaps as I fly the pattern.

What do you do for the "U" and "P" in a 152?

Check gear is down and welded.
Check prop pitch is fixed.


All the best,


David

[Corky Scott]

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:06:23 GMT, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>A checklist doesn't mean that you have to do something, just that you should
>think about it. Your mention of flaps is a good example...FLAPS should be
>part of the landing checklist, and it means "what flap setting, if any?"
>
>This does not contradict my reply to BoDean.
>
>Bob Gardner

I wasn't commenting on your message, I was responding to the original
post.

My experience has been that other than flaps and mixture, with the
fuel injected engined 172's there's nothing else to adjust.

You pretty much cannot land the airplane without thinking about the
flaps, or at least I can't, so digging out the checklist and reading
"set flaps", or whatever it says seems unnecessary to me at a time
when you want to be concentrating on holding pattern altitude, your
position in regards the runway, airspeed and traffic.

Complex airplanes would of course be different, but the question was
stated in regards "Cessna 172/152."

Corky Scott

[John Galban]

(Corky Scott) wrote in message >...
> Mixture? Some leave it in the lean position from
> cruise all the way down to touchdown,...

If you were properly leaned for cruise at, say, 9,500 and you're
landing close to sea level, chances are good that the engine will die
from an excessively lean mixture if you try a go-around.

> most go to full rich prior to
> entering the pattern.

If you happen to be landing at a high altitude airport (particularly
in the summer) a full rich mixture could leave you in the trees, if
you should happen to attempt a go-around (seen it happen more than
once).

For landing, mixture should be set so that the engine will develop
full power in the event of a go-around. There's no single proper
position as the mixture requirements will vary greatly with airport
altitude and OAT.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:36:14 GMT, Newps > wrote:

>Skip the seatbelts.

That's probably the only thing on the list required by regulation:


http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr91_00.html
§ 91.107 Use of safety belts, shoulder harnesses, and child
restraint systems.
...
(2) No pilot may cause to be moved on the surface, take off, or
land a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that
incorporates a basket or gondola, or an airship type certificated
before November 2, 1987) unless the pilot in command of that aircraft
ensures that each person on board has been notified to fasten his or
her safety belt and, if installed, his or her shoulder harness.

(3) Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board a
U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that
incorporates a basket or gondola or an airship type certificated
before November 2, 1987) must occupy an approved seat or berth with a
safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured
about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing.
For seaplane and float equipped rotorcraft operations during movement
on the surface, the person pushing off the seaplane or rotorcraft from
the dock and the person mooring the seaplane or rotorcraft at the dock
are excepted from the preceding seating and safety belt requirements.
....

[G.R. Patterson III]

BoDEAN wrote:
>
> How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> doing pattern work?

I flew with at least six different instructors during training for my PPC, two
others for transition to tailwheel, and several others for BFRs. None used
checklists during landing, nor did any of them recommend that I create one or
use one. I don't have or use one in my Maule, but there aren't a whole lot of
things to remember. I think I would develop the habit of using one if I were
flying more complex aircraft, or if I were flying several different types of
aircraft.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[David Brooks]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> BoDEAN wrote:
> >
> > How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> > doing pattern work?
>
> I flew with at least six different instructors during training for my PPC,
two
> others for transition to tailwheel, and several others for BFRs. None used
> checklists during landing, nor did any of them recommend that I create one
or
> use one.

My instructors talked about it, but didn't regularly reinforce the habit and
as a result I often forget. In a 172 and similar, there really is nothing to
actually *do* as a result of the checklist (I think that was the point about
the seatbelts; you always know you are wearing them) and, ironically, if you
do the check on downwind you probably don't pull the carb heat yet.

On the occasions when I do remember or am reminded, I usually take care to
actually touch the fuel selector, mixture, and primer, and look down at the
gear. I hope I'm creating habits that will help when I fly something more
complex, but right now I'm worried about re-creating the checklist habit in
the first place.

-- David Brooks

[Newps]

wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:36:14 GMT, Newps > wrote:
>
>
>>Skip the seatbelts.
>
>
> That's probably the only thing on the list required by regulation:

Yeah, that's my point. Who takes them off?

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article >,
David Megginson > wrote:
('Vejita' S. Cousin) writes:
>
>> Define 'full'? I mostly fly C152 and GUMP pretty much covers
>> everything. I do speed/flaps as I fly the pattern.
>
>What do you do for the "U" and "P" in a 152?
>
> Check gear is down and welded.
> Check prop pitch is fixed.

Actually when I was a student I did :) These days my actually
checklist is:

1. Seatbelts secure
2. Fuel both (not really necessary as I check this prior to takeoff too)
3. Mixture (as needed, normally full rich)

[Ron Natalie]

"'Vejita' S. Cousin" > wrote in message ...
> In article >,
> David Megginson > wrote:
> ('Vejita' S. Cousin) writes:
> >
> >> Define 'full'? I mostly fly C152 and GUMP pretty much covers
> >> everything. I do speed/flaps as I fly the pattern.
> >
> >What do you do for the "U" and "P" in a 152?

> 2. Fuel both (not really necessary as I check this prior to takeoff too)

The engine is running isn't it? The only choices you have in the 152 are
BOTH and OFF. Frankly, we NEVER touched that lever.

[Teacherjh]

>>
What do you do for the "U" and "P" in a 152?

Check gear is down and welded.
<<

And check that the parking brake is off.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Newps wrote:
>
> > That's probably the only thing on the list required by regulation:
>
> Yeah, that's my point. Who takes them off?

You never know. Actually, it doesn't matter. The reg requires you to notify
all passengers whether they have the belts on or not.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ron Natalie wrote:
>
> Frankly, we NEVER touched that lever.

Absolutely! In my 150, it never got turned. After 25+ years in one position, I
felt that nothing good could happen by moving it.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Larry Dighera]

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 21:36:01 GMT, Newps > wrote in
Message-Id: <09zqb.95717$9E1.460682@attbi_s52>:

>
>
wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:36:14 GMT, Newps > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Skip the seatbelts.
>>
>>
>> That's probably the only thing on the list required by regulation:
>
>Yeah, that's my point. Who takes them off?

How can the PIC know if passenger(s) have their belts & harnesses
fastened, if s/he doesn't check?

[Ron Natalie]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> Ron Natalie wrote:
> >
> > Frankly, we NEVER touched that lever.
>
> Absolutely! In my 150, it never got turned. After 25+ years in one position, I
> felt that nothing good could happen by moving it.
>
Yep, unless the plane is on fire...

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <F9vqb.94384$ao4.279861@attbi_s51>,
"Bob Gardner" > wrote:

> I don't like situational instruction, where one action is required under one
> set of circumstances and a different action is required under a different
> set of circumstances. Teach one procedure that works all the time.
>


There AIN'T no such thing! If you have an emergency, you're screwed
with that policy!





> "BoDEAN" > wrote in message
> ...
> > How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> > doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> > use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
> >
> >
>
>

[Brian Burger]

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Steve Robertson wrote:

> Seat belts, gas on, mixture, carb heat, land. How can you do any more or
> any less in a Cessna 172/152/150? Please enlighten me.

Brakes. (press briefly to check for pressure)

Oh, and Master On, Mags Both. It never hurts to be sure.

The full 152/172 landing checklist, as I've learned it:

Master On
Mags Both
Carb Heat On
Mix Rich
Fuel Switch On (or to Both in the 172)
Brakes
Land...

It's all purely physical now, a flow around the cockpit clockwise from the
Master Switch.

Brian.

>
> Steve Robertson
> N4732J 1967 Beechcraft Musketeer Super III
> (Seat belts, gas fullest tank, mixture, land for this plane)
>
> BoDEAN wrote:
>
> > How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> > doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> > use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
>
>

[mrwallace]

"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
>
> I do not have my students reading or referring to printed checklists while
in the pattern, however I insist that they use them for specific phases of
flight, for example, Level Off, Cruise, Arrival, Approach, etc. Strangely,
there is a flight school in our area that specializes in light twin training
and they did , and might still, have students referring to a written
checklist on takeoff and climbout, they might also do this while in the
pattern also. Kinda scary to think about. I would much rather have someone
looking out of the window for traffic and keeping a simple, light, workload
while in the pattern. Besides making sure that the lights are on, the
gauges are green, mixture is set properly and that the carb ht. is set what
else is there? No gear, no cowl flaps, no prop setting, no tanks to switch,
no autopilot, no spoilers, no pres/diff, nothing to arm etc. besides the
guys who have these things take care of them when in range and before they
enter the pattern.
Happy Flying R.Wallace

[aaronw]

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 08:40:33 -0500, Steve Robertson >
wrote:

>Seat belts, gas on, mixture, carb heat, land. How can you do any more or
>any less in a Cessna 172/152/150? Please enlighten me.

In the C-172SP I fly I do:

Seat belts
Fuel (shutoff)
Mixture (rich or as needed)
Master (both)
Mags (both)
A quick glance at the engine gauges to ensure that oil pressure (above
all else) is in the green.

aw

[aaronw]

oops, forgot to add fuel selector, so...

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 08:40:33 -0500, Steve Robertson >
wrote:

>Seat belts, gas on, mixture, carb heat, land. How can you do any more or
>any less in a Cessna 172/152/150? Please enlighten me.

In the C-172SP I fly I do:

Seat belts
Fuel (shutoff)
Fuel (both)
Mixture (rich or as needed)
Master (both)
Mags (both)
A quick glance at the engine gauges to ensure that oil pressure (above
all else) is in the green.

aw

[Bob Taylor]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message ...
> >
> >
> > Ron Natalie wrote:
> > >
> > > Frankly, we NEVER touched that lever.
> >
> > Absolutely! In my 150, it never got turned. After 25+ years in one position, I
> > felt that nothing good could happen by moving it.
> >
> Yep, unless the plane is on fire...

I turn the fuel valve all the way around on Cessnas before EVERY flight and teach my students to do
the same. It is a very nice thing to know that this valve can be turned BEFORE the plane catches
fire. It is also good to know how much force it takes. Of course when fueling Cessnas, it is best to
have this handle in anything but BOTH because some fuel will cross feed faster than you can climb down
the latter and scurry to the other side.

I teach this on Pipers too. I have had many a student that couldn't turn the Cherokee fuel selector
to OFF because he/she couldn't figure out the detent without some coaching. That's not a learning
process you have time for in a real emergency when the fuel needs to be shut off now.....

[mqd_117.3]

Abbreviated checks means abbreviated life!

Pre-landing checks and any other vital checks should be used each &
every time - ALWAYS. Commit them to memory & practice, practice and
re-practice them until they become second nature - (you don't even need
an plane to practice). Then use the checklist as just that - a
checklist and not a challenge & response list:

Brakes - off/pressure checked
Undercarriage - down/transiting
Mixture - rich
Fuel - fulest tank selected/pump on/contents & pressure checked
Engine Ts & P's - green sector
Mags - both
Doors - closed & locked
Harnesses/Seatbelts - secure

On short-final:

Props - full fine
Undercarriage - down & confirm three greens
Flaps - set as required
Carb heat - hot
Clearance - cleared to land/runway clear

If you can fly an aircraft, you can commit a simple pre-landing
checklist to memory and carry out each action as second nature - it
WILL save your life one day. Don't mess with abbreviations!

MQD


--
mqd_117.3
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via OziPilots Online [ http://www.OziPilotsOnline.com.au ]
- A website for Australian Pilots regardless of when, why, or what they fly -

[T-Boy]

In article . ca>, yh728
@victoria.tc.ca says...
> On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Steve Robertson wrote:
>
> > Seat belts, gas on, mixture, carb heat, land. How can you do any more or
> > any less in a Cessna 172/152/150? Please enlighten me.
>
> Brakes. (press briefly to check for pressure)
>
> Oh, and Master On, Mags Both. It never hurts to be sure.
>
> The full 152/172 landing checklist, as I've learned it:
>
> Master On
> Mags Both
> Carb Heat On
> Mix Rich
> Fuel Switch On (or to Both in the 172)
> Brakes
> Land...

You land with the carb heat ON?

Well I've got about five seconds on you...

I do a BUMPS while downwind: Brakes, Undercarriage (who cares if it's
fixed or not, this is good practice, and the club has a C172-RG (kinda
need it then)), Mixture/Mags/Primer pump and tanks both, Pitch fine (ok,
still good practice:), Secure? (belts, door latches).

Before pulling the throttle at the end of downwind it's carb heat on.

Turning final, carb heat back off. (Any probs in the land, or even
after landing that might necessitate a go round, I'm ready for full
throttle - no messing around with the carb heat).

--
Duncan

[Tom S.]

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:09zqb.95717$9E1.460682@attbi_s52...
>
>
> wrote:
> > On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:36:14 GMT, Newps > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Skip the seatbelts.
> >
> >
> > That's probably the only thing on the list required by regulation:
>
> Yeah, that's my point. Who takes them off?

I do. They wrinkle my dress.

Tom

[Judah]

These guys are probably the same ones that tell you that since it's a
school plane, you can use the "abbreviated preflight checklist" and just
check for fuel and oil before going up.

If your students never plan to fly any plane besides the one that they were
trained it, it MIGHT be OK to abbreviate the checklist to cover only those
items that are "applicable" to their plane.

But if you want to train someone to be a good pilot, you build good habits,
which may include checking things that are easy to "assume".

JMHO..

BoDEAN > wrote in
:

> How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
>
>

[Kiwi Jet Jock]

"Steve Robertson" > wrote in message
...
> Seat belts, gas on, mixture, carb heat, land. How can you do any more or
> any less in a Cessna 172/152/150? Please enlighten me.

You can check the brakes for even pressure and turn your landing light on.

[Steve Robertson]

Your 10-year old in the back seat does. That's probably why the FARs
require this. Some DE will flunk you on a check ride if you neglect to
verify seat belt usage before landing.

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24

Newps wrote:

> wrote:
> > On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:36:14 GMT, Newps > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Skip the seatbelts.
> >
> >
> > That's probably the only thing on the list required by regulation:
>
> Yeah, that's my point. Who takes them off?

[Steve Robertson]

T-Boy wrote:

> I <snip>
>
> You land with the carb heat ON?
>
> <snip>
>
> Turning final, carb heat back off. (Any probs in the land, or even
> after landing that might necessitate a go round, I'm ready for full
> throttle - no messing around with the carb heat).
>
> --
> Duncan

Doing it your way, you may find that full throttle produces little power because
the carb could be iced up. Check your POH. I believe you will find it specifies
the use of full carb heat any time RPM is reduced below the green arc on the
tach. There is a reason for this, especially on O-200 and O-300 powered Cessnas.

Let me assure you that most folks without a crippled hand can push the throttle
and carb heat on a Cessna forward at the same time if need be. If physically
unable, go to full throttle and then turn carb heat off. Full throttle with carb
heat on will still get you enough power to go around (unless you are in a C-150
and have 40 degress of flaps down), especially considering you will have the
carb heat off in about 2 more seconds.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson

[Robert Moore]

T-Boy > wrote

> You land with the carb heat ON?

My Cessna provided pilot's operating handbook checklist for a 1959
C-172 reads as follows:

J. BEFORE LANDING.
(1) Set fuel selector to "Both".
(2) Recheck mixture "Full Rich" (full in).
(3) Apply carburetor heat before closing throttle.

Of course this was before the FAA seatbelt regulation which added
to later models a "Seatbelts ON" item.

A commercially available C-172 N model checklist from AVTECH PILOT
PRODUCTS reads as follows:

BEFORE LANDING CHECKLIST
Seats/Seatbelts............Secure
Fuel Selector..............Fullest Tank/Both
Carburetor Heat............ON
Mixture....................Rich/As Required

I've spent about six years landing with the carb heat ON.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 08:41:12 -0500, Steve Robertson >
wrote in Message-Id: >:

>Full throttle with carb
>heat on will still get you enough power to go around

Full throttle with carburetor head applied is also likely to cause
detonation due to an excessively lean mixture. This preignition
applies all the instantaneous force of the _exploding_ (as opposed to
burning) gasoline/air mixture directly against the top of an ascending
(not descending as normal) piston. Detonation can bend piston rods or
crack the case. Over a longer period of time, detonation can burn
through the top of aluminum pistons.


Induced engine damage:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=support/engineOperationTips/index.html

Detonation and preignition:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=support/engineOperationTips/index.html

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 08:41:12 -0500, Steve Robertson >
> wrote in Message-Id: >:
>
> >Full throttle with carb
> >heat on will still get you enough power to go around
>
> Full throttle with carburetor head applied is also likely to cause
> detonation due to an excessively lean mixture. This preignition
> applies all the instantaneous force of the _exploding_ (as opposed to
> burning) gasoline/air mixture directly against the top of an ascending
> (not descending as normal) piston. Detonation can bend piston rods or
> crack the case. Over a longer period of time, detonation can burn
> through the top of aluminum pistons.


Since WHEN does carb heat LEAN the mixture???:
Carb heat reduces the density of the intake air and therefore ENRICHES
the mixture.






> Induced engine damage:
> http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=support/engineOperationTips/
> index.html
>
> Detonation and preignition:
> http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=support/engineOperationTips/
> index.html

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:30:10 GMT, Orval Fairbairn
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>Since WHEN does carb heat LEAN the mixture???:
>Carb heat reduces the density of the intake air and therefore ENRICHES
>the mixture.

Oops. You are correct. Hopefully, you found no other errors in my
comments.

[Scott Skylane]

aaronw wrote:

> In the C-172SP I fly I do:
>
/snip/
> A quick glance at the engine gauges to ensure that oil pressure (above
> all else) is in the green.
>
> aw

Sooo, what do you do if the oil pressure is not in the green? You DON'T
land???

[Steve Robertson]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 08:41:12 -0500, Steve Robertson >
> wrote in Message-Id: >:
>
> >Full throttle with carb
> >heat on will still get you enough power to go around
>
> Full throttle with carburetor head applied is also likely to cause
> detonation due to an excessively lean mixture. This preignition
> applies all the instantaneous force of the _exploding_ (as opposed to
> burning) gasoline/air mixture directly against the top of an ascending
> (not descending as normal) piston. Detonation can bend piston rods or
> crack the case. Over a longer period of time, detonation can burn
> through the top of aluminum pistons.
>
> Induced engine damage:
> http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=support/engineOperationTips/index.html
>
> Detonation and preignition:
> http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=support/engineOperationTips/index.html

No argument from me, Larry. Long term use is not good. But I am talking about a go-around
situation where the pilot's choice is full throttle or crash. And the carb heat can be
turned off in a matter of seconds after going full throttle. I'm trying to convince a guy to
use carb heat on final as directed by the POH. You are not helping! (By the way, applying
carb heat enrichens the mixture in most flight regimes because the hot air is less dense
than cold air. The laws of physics are seldom broken by us mortals.) Also, your references
are for Lycoming engines, which are, in general, much less suseptible to carb ice than small
Continentals due to the design of the intake system.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:29:39 -0500, Steve Robertson >
wrote in Message-Id: >:

>I'm trying to convince a guy to
>use carb heat on final as directed by the POH. You are not helping!

I agree. Pilots should do what it says in the POH. You'll get no
argument from me on that point.

If you'd ever applied carburetor heat and full throttle on a Lycoming
O-235, you'd understand the reason I mentioned detonation. I suppose
that (and the way the Lycoming induction system is plumbed against the
warm engine oil sump) is why the Piper POH doesn't recommend the use
of CH unless induction icing has actually occurred, unlike Cessna.

[Bob Gardner]

I've had my share of emergencies, Orval, in singles and twins, and I stand
by my comments.

Bob Gardner

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message
.
...
> In article <F9vqb.94384$ao4.279861@attbi_s51>,
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>
> > I don't like situational instruction, where one action is required under
one
> > set of circumstances and a different action is required under a
different
> > set of circumstances. Teach one procedure that works all the time.
> >
>
>
> There AIN'T no such thing! If you have an emergency, you're screwed
> with that policy!
>
>
>
>
>
> > "BoDEAN" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> > > doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> > > use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

[Bob Gardner]

That's exactly what I meant, David....way to go! There was a time when
fixed-gear Beech trainers had a faux landing gear switch, just to develop
the habit pattern.

Bob Gardner

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > BoDEAN wrote:
> > >
> > > How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> > > doing pattern work?
> >
> > I flew with at least six different instructors during training for my
PPC,
> two
> > others for transition to tailwheel, and several others for BFRs. None
used
> > checklists during landing, nor did any of them recommend that I create
one
> or
> > use one.
>
> My instructors talked about it, but didn't regularly reinforce the habit
and
> as a result I often forget. In a 172 and similar, there really is nothing
to
> actually *do* as a result of the checklist (I think that was the point
about
> the seatbelts; you always know you are wearing them) and, ironically, if
you
> do the check on downwind you probably don't pull the carb heat yet.
>
> On the occasions when I do remember or am reminded, I usually take care to
> actually touch the fuel selector, mixture, and primer, and look down at
the
> gear. I hope I'm creating habits that will help when I fly something more
> complex, but right now I'm worried about re-creating the checklist habit
in
> the first place.
>
> -- David Brooks
>
>

[Dave]

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 6...
> T-Boy > wrote
>
> > You land with the carb heat ON?
>
> My Cessna provided pilot's operating handbook checklist for a 1959
> C-172 reads as follows:
>
> J. BEFORE LANDING.
> (1) Set fuel selector to "Both".
> (2) Recheck mixture "Full Rich" (full in).
> (3) Apply carburetor heat before closing throttle.
>
> Of course this was before the FAA seatbelt regulation which added
> to later models a "Seatbelts ON" item.
>
> A commercially available C-172 N model checklist from AVTECH PILOT
> PRODUCTS reads as follows:
>
> BEFORE LANDING CHECKLIST
> Seats/Seatbelts............Secure
> Fuel Selector..............Fullest Tank/Both
> Carburetor Heat............ON
> Mixture....................Rich/As Required
>
> I've spent about six years landing with the carb heat ON.
>
And on a go around it is possible to open the throttle and push the carb
heat in at the same movement, its what the thumb is for.

[Bob Gardner]

This gets back to the discussion/controversy about "do" lists versus "check"
lists....students are taught to use the list as a "do" list, which requires
taking an action (or touching a control) for each item on the list. With
experience, pilots graduate to a "check" list, where they use a flow pattern
or other method to do what needs to be done, and then refer to the list as a
"Have I forgotten anything?" reminder.

Bob Gardner

"mrwallace" > wrote in message
...
>
> "BoDEAN" > wrote in message
> ...
> > How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> > doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> > use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
> >
> > I do not have my students reading or referring to printed checklists
while
> in the pattern, however I insist that they use them for specific phases of
> flight, for example, Level Off, Cruise, Arrival, Approach, etc.
Strangely,
> there is a flight school in our area that specializes in light twin
training
> and they did , and might still, have students referring to a written
> checklist on takeoff and climbout, they might also do this while in the
> pattern also. Kinda scary to think about. I would much rather have
someone
> looking out of the window for traffic and keeping a simple, light,
workload
> while in the pattern. Besides making sure that the lights are on, the
> gauges are green, mixture is set properly and that the carb ht. is set
what
> else is there? No gear, no cowl flaps, no prop setting, no tanks to
switch,
> no autopilot, no spoilers, no pres/diff, nothing to arm etc. besides the
> guys who have these things take care of them when in range and before they
> enter the pattern.
> Happy Flying R.Wallace
>
>

[Dave Butler]

aaronw wrote:

[speaking of landing checklists]

> A quick glance at the engine gauges to ensure that oil pressure (above
> all else) is in the green.

....and if it's not, what do you do? land?

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[John Galban]

mqd_117.3 > wrote in message >...

> Abbreviated checks means abbreviated life!
>
What about blindly following checklists? For example :

<snip>

> Mixture - rich

Try this at a 7,000 ft. MSL on a warm summer day and you'll be
disappointed in what happens when you advance the throttle to go
around.

I am on a personal crusade to get pilots to change this item to :

Mixture - set appropriately

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[T-Boy]

In article >, says...
>
> T-Boy wrote:
>
> > I <snip>
> >
> > You land with the carb heat ON?
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Turning final, carb heat back off. (Any probs in the land, or even
> > after landing that might necessitate a go round, I'm ready for full
> > throttle - no messing around with the carb heat).
> >
> > --
> > Duncan
>
> Doing it your way, you may find that full throttle produces little power because
> the carb could be iced up. Check your POH. I believe you will find it specifies
> the use of full carb heat any time RPM is reduced below the green arc on the
> tach. There is a reason for this, especially on O-200 and O-300 powered Cessnas.
>
> Let me assure you that most folks without a crippled hand can push the throttle
> and carb heat on a Cessna forward at the same time if need be. If physically
> unable, go to full throttle and then turn carb heat off. Full throttle with carb
> heat on will still get you enough power to go around (unless you are in a C-150
> and have 40 degress of flaps down), especially considering you will have the
> carb heat off in about 2 more seconds.

Thanks Steve, it's interesting you and Robert Moore (who's obviously an
experienced instructor) say this. I've never been taught it, and I've
had probably ten/fifteen different instructors over the years. They've
all taught me the way I've described already.

I find it somewhat difficult to believe that carb icing could occur
after have flown a base leg with carb heat fully on, on the final. Bear
in mind that this is a VFR/VMC approach - though sure, on some days,
dewpoint is indeed sometimes quite close to temp.

Any more comments - appreciated. Meantime, I might practice the carb
heat off, throttle on - simultaneous thing (sounds easy enough).

--
Duncan

[T-Boy]

In article >, rmoore16
@tampabay.rr.com says...
> T-Boy > wrote
>
> > You land with the carb heat ON?
>
> My Cessna provided pilot's operating handbook checklist for a 1959
> C-172 reads as follows:
>
> J. BEFORE LANDING.
> (1) Set fuel selector to "Both".
> (2) Recheck mixture "Full Rich" (full in).
> (3) Apply carburetor heat before closing throttle.
>
> Of course this was before the FAA seatbelt regulation which added
> to later models a "Seatbelts ON" item.
>
> A commercially available C-172 N model checklist from AVTECH PILOT
> PRODUCTS reads as follows:
>
> BEFORE LANDING CHECKLIST
> Seats/Seatbelts............Secure
> Fuel Selector..............Fullest Tank/Both
> Carburetor Heat............ON
> Mixture....................Rich/As Required
>
> I've spent about six years landing with the carb heat ON.

Bob, see my reply to Steve - comments there, if any - appreciated.

--
Duncan

[Teacherjh]

>>
Sooo, what do you do if the oil pressure is not in the green? You DON'T
land???
<<

You make a short approach? If not by choice, then by physics. :)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Teacherjh]

>> Mixture - set appropriately

Mure useful is sometihng like:

Mixture - rich below 5000

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[aaronw]

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 07:34:56 -0900, Scott Skylane
> wrote:

>aaronw wrote:
>
>> In the C-172SP I fly I do:
>>
>/snip/
>> A quick glance at the engine gauges to ensure that oil pressure (above
>> all else) is in the green.
>>
>> aw
>
>Sooo, what do you do if the oil pressure is not in the green? You DON'T
>land???

Well, I land, but it would be nice to know if it is having troubles
BEFORE possibly having to extend my downwind due to other traffic in
the area. Yes, I'll be on the ground in 60 seconds or so, but I'd
prefer not to get surprised.

Since I'm low to the ground, my gliding distance in case of engine
failure is lower, and every second I spend in downwind once I pass the
threshold is carrying me further away from the airport.

Yes, engine failure at any time is bad, and I be ready for it anytime,
but there is a lot of stuff taking up my concentration when manuvering
in the pattern, so I just do a quick glance to make sure all is as
good as it gets.

aw

[Jeff]

my wife takes her seat belt off and lays the seat back on trips.
20-30 minutes out I have her put the seat up and put on her belt and I put
my shoulder belt back on.
As for landing checklist, gas - gear - prop - mixture, but by the time I
am at TPA I am at full rich and gear is usually down anyways.


Newps wrote:

> wrote:
> > On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:36:14 GMT, Newps > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Skip the seatbelts.
> >
> >
> > That's probably the only thing on the list required by regulation:
>
> Yeah, that's my point. Who takes them off?

[mrwallace]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
news:nBSqb.141282$e01.473457@attbi_s02...
> This gets back to the discussion/controversy about "do" lists versus
"check"
> lists....students are taught to use the list as a "do" list, which
requires
> taking an action (or touching a control) for each item on the list. With
> experience, pilots graduate to a "check" list, where they use a flow
pattern
> or other method to do what needs to be done, and then refer to the list as
a
> "Have I forgotten anything?" reminder.
>
> Bob Gardner
> Good point! guess I assumed that by " full before landing checklist" while
"doing pattern work" meant a written one. Seems that the discussion has
devolved into a debate on mnemonics and various rituals while preparing to
land, ok sounds like everyone agrees that something needs to be done; for
example the seat belt issue. Most usually take care of this item before
descent and not in the pattern. As I recall wasn't the original question
related to " doing pattern work"? Sure, pilots need a way to remember
important items for critical phases of operations; mixture is a good example
but the procedures need to be tailored to the aircraft. In a 172 we never
instruct "mixture----Rich but mixture---Set or as req. in our 210 landing at
high alt airports such as Big Bear or Tahoe etc we use full rich(turbo) I
still think that in the pattern all non critical items have been complied
with before and the pilot should only attend critical items and not be
reading a list. Although there are always differences, I sense that most
single pilots operations use a checklist as a "have I forgotten anythig?".
R.Wallace
> "mrwallace" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "BoDEAN" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> > > doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> > > use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
> > >
> > > >

[mrwallace]

"Bob Taylor" > wrote in message
...
> Ron Natalie wrote:
>
> > "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> > >
> > >
> > > Ron Natalie wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Frankly, we NEVER touched that lever.
> > >
> > > Absolutely! In my 150, it never got turned. After 25+ years in one
position, I
> > > felt that nothing good could happen by moving it.
> > >
> > Yep, unless the plane is on fire...
>
> I turn the fuel valve all the way around on Cessnas before EVERY flight
and teach my students to do
> the same. It is a very nice thing to know that this valve can be turned
BEFORE the plane catches
> fire. It is also good to know how much force it takes. Of course when
fueling Cessnas, it is best to
> have this handle in anything but BOTH because some fuel will cross feed
faster than you can climb down
> the latter and scurry to the other side.
> Yeah, we carry a pair of pliers and a screwdriver in case anything like
the fuel select handle breaks but we never fool whith the fuel tank select
while in the pattern. That's a pre-descent or in range item. I used to fly
with a wwII guy who would switch from right tank, to Off, let the engine
start to die, and then switch to left tank, as part of his preflight. He
explained that he was checking the fuel feed and fuel select integrity. made
sense, at least he knew that the lever was free and he had feed from both
tanks.
R.Wallace
> I teach this on Pipers too. I have had many a student that couldn't turn
the Cherokee fuel selector
> to OFF because he/she couldn't figure out the detent without some
coaching. That's not a learning
> process you have time for in a real emergency when the fuel needs to be
shut off now.....
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Jeff" > wrote in message ...
> my wife takes her seat belt off and lays the seat back on trips.
> 20-30 minutes out I have her put the seat up and put on her belt and I put
> my shoulder belt back on.

lol...

You're the guy who is so nervous, you won't land on anything shorter than
5000 feet, but you let your wife take her seat belt off during a flight, in
spite of the very real risk of turbulence that could easily break her neck.

Pretty funny...

[Robert Moore]

"mrwallace" > wrote
>Although there are always differences, I sense that most single
>pilots operations use a checklist as a "have I forgotten anythig?".

Which is the manner in which we used checklists in the airline
business. A brief quote from my PanAm Boeing manual (which
presented an entire page on why, when, and how to accomplish
checklists) reads as follows:

"The crew can and should accomplish their functions as
circumstances and good judgement dictate. The checklist
then becomes a verification that items have not been
forgotten."

Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)

[Kiwi Jet Jock]

For many years I've observed many (most?) who are accustomed to flying
without checklists ...

3/4 don't check the brakes when they first start to taxi - another 3/4 don't
verify they can draw fuel from BOTH tanks prior to runups - 1/2 don't switch
on the beacon - 1/2 don't check the vacuum - the list goes on an on. The
problem is the pilots fly the plane the way they were taught by a person who
flys it the way they were taught and so on - in many cases these instructors
have developed lazy / undiciplined habits over the years - which get passed
on to the next person.

By using checklists (and getting used to using checklists) nothing EVER gets
forgotten - and habits are well formed when pilots transition to higher
performance aircraft (where transitioning pilots may initially be 2 miles
behind the aircraft - and checklists become more important than ever).






"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> These guys are probably the same ones that tell you that since it's a
> school plane, you can use the "abbreviated preflight checklist" and just
> check for fuel and oil before going up.
>
> If your students never plan to fly any plane besides the one that they
were
> trained it, it MIGHT be OK to abbreviate the checklist to cover only those
> items that are "applicable" to their plane.
>
> But if you want to train someone to be a good pilot, you build good
habits,
> which may include checking things that are easy to "assume".
>
> JMHO..
>
> BoDEAN > wrote in
> :
>
> > How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
> > doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
> > use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
> >
> >
>

[Kiwi Jet Jock]

> > I don't like situational instruction, where one action is required under
one
> > set of circumstances and a different action is required under a
different
> > set of circumstances. Teach one procedure that works all the time.
> >
>
>
> There AIN'T no such thing! If you have an emergency, you're screwed
> with that policy!

No! You're screwed when you DON'T follow pre-planned / pre-trained
procedures during an emergency.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Kiwi Jet Jock" > wrote:

> > > I don't like situational instruction, where one action is required under
> one
> > > set of circumstances and a different action is required under a
> different
> > > set of circumstances. Teach one procedure that works all the time.
> > >
> >
> >
> > There AIN'T no such thing! If you have an emergency, you're screwed
> > with that policy!
>
> No! You're screwed when you DON'T follow pre-planned / pre-trained
> procedures during an emergency.
>
>

You're screwed if the emergency lies outside your preplanned actions! If
you depend on rote learning while flying, you have no business in the
cockpit!

Checklists are fine, but are NOT the answer to everything! As I pointed
out earlier, having your nose buried in a checlist while in the traffic
pattern is not the smartest or safest use of your attention and eyesight.

[Judah]

I learned that on my checkride...

After a fairly smooth Oral exam, we go out and preflight the plane. We get
in the plane and it is time to go.

It was December, and cold, so the Line Guys had the engine pre-heated and
(mistakenly) told me to use the Hot Start checklist. It was an old plane,
and always gave trouble hot starting. Different instructors and line guys
all had their own "tricks" that they used to get it started.

Of course, that day, none of the tricks I tried worked. And after a few
tries, the DE failed me on the spot. I said that I thought if there was a
mechanical failure of the plane, it should be a reschedule, not a fail. The
DE said that I failed to use the checklist to start the plane, and had I
properly used the checklist, it probably would have started, and even if it
didn't I would not have failed. He also explained to me why what I did
probably caused a vapor lock...

I learned that day that the tricks and secrets that different people have
are probably just old wives tales, and if I want to fly properly, I stick
to the approved checklist in the POH.

And furthermore, that way, if something goes wrong, I have no one to blame
but the manufacturer or the A&P...

Fortunately, the next day, I had no trouble starting the plane, and no
trouble passing my test... And as far as learning that valuable lesson, I
feel lucky that I didn't have to learn that lesson the 'hard way'
(disappointing as it was)...



"Kiwi Jet Jock" > wrote in
:

> For many years I've observed many (most?) who are accustomed to flying
> without checklists ...
>
> 3/4 don't check the brakes when they first start to taxi - another 3/4
> don't verify they can draw fuel from BOTH tanks prior to runups - 1/2
> don't switch on the beacon - 1/2 don't check the vacuum - the list goes
> on an on. The problem is the pilots fly the plane the way they were
> taught by a person who flys it the way they were taught and so on - in
> many cases these instructors have developed lazy / undiciplined habits
> over the years - which get passed on to the next person.
>
> By using checklists (and getting used to using checklists) nothing EVER
> gets forgotten - and habits are well formed when pilots transition to
> higher performance aircraft (where transitioning pilots may initially
> be 2 miles behind the aircraft - and checklists become more important
> than ever).
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Judah" > wrote in message
> ...
>> These guys are probably the same ones that tell you that since it's a
>> school plane, you can use the "abbreviated preflight checklist" and
>> just check for fuel and oil before going up.
>>
>> If your students never plan to fly any plane besides the one that they
>> were trained it, it MIGHT be OK to abbreviate the checklist to cover
>> only those items that are "applicable" to their plane.
>>
>> But if you want to train someone to be a good pilot, you build good
>> habits, which may include checking things that are easy to "assume".
>>
>> JMHO..
>>
>> BoDEAN > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> > How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist
>> > when doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I
>> > work with use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>

[Kiwi Jet Jock]

> Checklists are fine, but are NOT the answer to everything! As I pointed
> out earlier, having your nose buried in a checlist while in the traffic
> pattern is not the smartest or safest use of your attention and eyesight.

The 'answer to everything' is training, and then following those learned
procedures - that's why we spend hundreds of hours in simulators before
being let loose on heavy metal. Checklists are an essential part of that
cockpit discipline - as is 'Aviate - Navigate - Communicate'.

What drops so many pilots in the proverbial brown stuff is the lack of
cockpit discipline - a belief that it "won't happen to them" and if it does
then "I'll sort it out at the time". As an example, a trained, professional
pilot (flying heavy metal) - following training & procedures - would not
attempt to abort a takeoff after V1 if, for example, they get an engine fire
indication - The initial actions of those NOT following procedures is to let
all of their attention focus on the 'problem' - panic - and take a
psudo-random course of action (eg trying to abort - or shutting down the
wrong engine) that gets everyone killed.

At an elementary level pilots often "get away" with not following formalised
procedures in light single-engine GA aircraft (although it still kills far
to many people each and every year) - but the lack of discipline sets you up
to fail as you progress to higher performance aircraft - too many GA pilots
cut too many corners (starting with a lack of cockpit discipline) - these
bad habits stay with them as they accumulate more and more hours in bigger
and faster aircraft - until one day a few peripheral circumstances change
and they get caught with their "proverbial pants down." As humans we all
make mistakes and we forget things - especially when the pressure is on - by
using checklists in many areas of aviation we ensure that we DON'T forget
things - things like lowering the gear in a retractable - things like
terminating flightplans - Things like feathering a prop on a dead engine.
When was the last time someone who flies using a checklist landed a
retractable with the gear up?

This 'nose buried in a checklist / lack of attention' argument is a crock -
as pilots being able to effectively task-switch is a requirement that comes
with being PIC. I can complete a 9 point pre-landing checklist in a high
performance light twin in under 12 seconds @ 140 knots downwind - whilst
keeping an effective lookout - and occasionally talking to the tower in the
middle of it. Once the item is read, most of the items are carried out with
eyes looking outside the cockpit - you shouldn't have to look to identify
parking brake - mixtures - pitch - aux pumps - autopilot disconnect etc. If
you can't perform comfortably at this level whilst maintaining your lookout
and situational awareness then you shouldn't be in the left hand seat.

There is no emergency that can't be made worse by not following procedures.
Get used to using checklists. Everytime.

[Steve Robertson]

Hi Duncan,

Kudos for wanting more info on the subject!

I don't remember what aircraft you are flying (if you even said), so your instructors
may not have been too far off, depending. If the plane has a Lycoming engine, you are
at less risk for carb ice due to the way the carb is posititioned near hot engine
parts. But Continental (and Franklin, IIRC) engines are quite prone to carb ice.

There are two main problems with your assumptions on carb ice formation.

The first is the assumption that the dewpoint needs to be close to the ambiant
temperature. That is incorrect because the air temperature drops dramtically inside
the carburetor (due to the venturi effect and evaporative cooling of the fuel), which
can lower the air temp well below the dewpoint (as well as the freezing point!). Of
course, a higher relative humidity is more conducive to formation of carb ice.

The second is the assumption that ice formation is unlikely if the carb heat has been
on for most of the approach. The problem here is that ice is most likely to form when
the thottle is only partially open, as on final approach. This is because the air
cools more than ever due to a higher partial vacuum forming in the venturi. Even
though you may have carb heat on for most of the approach, it won't "tide you over" on
final. Once you turn it off, the carb itself cools rapidly. So you can get ice right
away.

Here is a more learned explation than I have given you:

http://www.sacskyranch.com/crbice.htm

By the way, I am a CFI (who doesn't teach anymore) who can tell you with some first
hand knowledge that there are a lot of CFIs who may be able to fly great and teach
great, but don't know diddly squirt about engines. My advice is to do exactly what the
POH says. For all the griping we do about the "stupid manufacturers", they really are
smarter than most of us when it comes to operation of the mechanical systems.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A2-24 Musketeer

T-Boy wrote:

> In article >, says...
> >
> > T-Boy wrote:
> >
> > > I <snip>
> > >
> > > You land with the carb heat ON?
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Turning final, carb heat back off. (Any probs in the land, or even
> > > after landing that might necessitate a go round, I'm ready for full
> > > throttle - no messing around with the carb heat).
> > >
> > > --
> > > Duncan
> >
> > Doing it your way, you may find that full throttle produces little power because
> > the carb could be iced up. Check your POH. I believe you will find it specifies
> > the use of full carb heat any time RPM is reduced below the green arc on the
> > tach. There is a reason for this, especially on O-200 and O-300 powered Cessnas.
> >
> > Let me assure you that most folks without a crippled hand can push the throttle
> > and carb heat on a Cessna forward at the same time if need be. If physically
> > unable, go to full throttle and then turn carb heat off. Full throttle with carb
> > heat on will still get you enough power to go around (unless you are in a C-150
> > and have 40 degress of flaps down), especially considering you will have the
> > carb heat off in about 2 more seconds.
>
> Thanks Steve, it's interesting you and Robert Moore (who's obviously an
> experienced instructor) say this. I've never been taught it, and I've
> had probably ten/fifteen different instructors over the years. They've
> all taught me the way I've described already.
>
> I find it somewhat difficult to believe that carb icing could occur
> after have flown a base leg with carb heat fully on, on the final. Bear
> in mind that this is a VFR/VMC approach - though sure, on some days,
> dewpoint is indeed sometimes quite close to temp.
>
> Any more comments - appreciated. Meantime, I might practice the carb
> heat off, throttle on - simultaneous thing (sounds easy enough).
>
> --
> Duncan

[John Galban]

(Teacherjh) wrote in message >...
> >> Mixture - set appropriately
>
> Mure useful is sometihng like:
>
> Mixture - rich below 5000
>
That's the problem I was trying to point out. Is the average pilot
reading that going to interpret it as 5000 ft. MSL? Probably. It
also doesn't tell you what to do above 5000.

I often fly to an airport that sits at 4,600 ft. It is also common
for OATs to be 100 - 110F or in summer. Full rich would definitely be
a bad idea at that density altitude.

I think it's important for the pilot to understand the effect of
mixture at higher density altitudes and be able to set it
appropriately, rather than blindly following a checklist instruction.
There's no single instruction that will be applicable in all
situations.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Teacherjh]

>>
> Mixture - rich below 5000
>
That's the problem I was trying to point out. Is the average pilot
reading that going to interpret it as 5000 ft. MSL? Probably. It
also doesn't tell you what to do above 5000.
<<

It's a checklist - a reminder - not an instruction book. It presumes the pilot
already knows pretty much what to do.

Jose





--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Newps]

John Galban wrote:

> (Teacherjh) wrote in message >...
>
>>>>Mixture - set appropriately
>>
>>Mure useful is sometihng like:
>>
>>Mixture - rich below 5000
>>
>
> That's the problem I was trying to point out. Is the average pilot
> reading that going to interpret it as 5000 ft. MSL? Probably. It
> also doesn't tell you what to do above 5000.
>
> I often fly to an airport that sits at 4,600 ft. It is also common
> for OATs to be 100 - 110F or in summer. Full rich would definitely be
> a bad idea at that density altitude.

My airport is at 3650, the mixture is never full rich from May thru October.

[Greg Esres]

<<full before landing checklist when doing pattern work?>>

My view is that when in the pattern, you're better off looking for
traffic than reading a list. For more complex aircraft, CCGUMPS gets
everything. I also ask for a Red, Blue, Green check on base and
final.

[Teacherjh]

>> I also ask for a Red, Blue, Green check on base and final.

Whazzat?

And what's the CC in CCGumps?
--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Greg Esres]

<Red, Green, Blue...Whazzat?>

Red=Mixture, Blue=Prop, Green=3 green

<<And what's the CC in CCGumps?>>

Carb heat, Cowl Flaps