Max towing weigth for PA-18 150 hp and 180 hp?

[Robert Danewid[_2_]]

What is the max towing weight (max weight of the glider) for the PA-18 150 hp and 180hp?

Where can I find information on this (on the net).

Thanks!

Robert
ASW 28-18E

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, April 22, 2012 3:06:13 PM UTC-4, Robert Danewid wrote:
> What is the max towing weight (max weight of the glider) for the PA-18 150 hp and 180hp?
>
> Where can I find information on this (on the net).
>
> Thanks!
>
> Robert
> ASW 28-18E

I have never seen any Piper limitations published.
The tow hook installed is likely the limiting factor.
FWIW
UH

[Bill D]

On Apr 22, 1:06*pm, Robert Danewid > wrote:
> What is the max towing weight (max weight of the glider) for the PA-18 150 hp and 180hp?
>
> Where can I find information on this (on the net).
>
> Thanks!
>
> Robert
> ASW 28-18E

As long as a Tost hook is installed, there are practically no limits.
There are two 180 HP PA-18's operating out of Boulder, CO where
density altitudes can reach 9,000'. They routinely tow fully loaded 2-
seaters. The PA-18-150 has significantly less performance which is
why none are used in Colorado. While information on hooks is
available on-line, towing performance probably isn't.

I recall the late Dave Johnson, who developed the STC for the 180HP
Cub, saying a 180 HP Lyc. O-360 is only a few pounds heavier than the
original O-320. He went on to say it seems like the extra 30HP
provides a lot more performance than one would expect.

The Schweizer tow plane hook has a limit of 1200 pounds which is
inadequate for heavier gliders but the Tost hook limit is 2570 Lb
which easily handles any glider. For that and a lot of other reasons,
the Schweizer hook should be retired.

[Robert Danewid[_2_]]

Thanks

My problem is that some one has found a supplement named S1A-77 to the Flight Manual of a 180 hp PA 18 that says that max glider weigth is 600 kg. Can any one send me or direct me to that supplement.

It does not make sense...... We have been towing gliders >600 kg with PA 18 150/180 since the early 80ies.

Robert

[Craig R.]

At first blush I'd say that information was not from the USA. I don't recall ever seeing any US aviation restriction stated in kilos, but I could be wrong. Just a thought.

[Bill D]

On Apr 22, 4:43*pm, Robert Danewid > wrote:
> Thanks
>
> My problem is that some one has found a supplement named S1A-77 to the Flight Manual of a 180 hp PA 18 that says that max glider weigth is 600 kg. Can any one send me or direct me to that supplement.
>
> It does not make sense...... We have been towing gliders >600 kg with PA 18 150/180 since the early 80ies.
>
> Robert

OK, having nothing else to do this afternoon, I did some research.
The 600kg number suggested a European sourced supplement. US STC's
would likely be in SAE units.

It appears there is a MOGAS STC issued in Switzerland to Wenger &
Kaufmann for PA-18-180-M and PA-18-150 glider tugs. In pursuit of the
STC the glider tow performance (takeoff roll, climb rate) was measured
with a 600kg glider in tow. Since that is the heaviest glider tested,
that became the limit for the STC. This may or may not the source of
S1A-77 but it shows how it can happen. There are LOTS of different
STC's for PA-18 around the world.

This is a bit if a diversion but most recent European 2-seaters
specify 600kg (Actually, 600 daN) weak links for aero tow. If these
gliders are operated in strict compliance with their Approved Flight
Manuals as required by FAR 91.9, 600kg would be the max load on the
tug.

I have been assuming (possibly in error) that you are in the US.

[Robert Danewid[_2_]]

On 23 Apr, 03:08, Bill D > wrote:
> On Apr 22, 4:43*pm, Robert Danewid > wrote:
>
> > Thanks
>
> > My problem is that some one has found a supplement named S1A-77 to the Flight Manual of a 180 hp PA 18 that says that max glider weigth is 600 kg. Can any one send me or direct me to that supplement.
>
> > It does not make sense...... We have been towing gliders >600 kg with PA 18 150/180 since the early 80ies.
>
> > Robert
>
> OK, having nothing else to do this afternoon, I did some research.
> The 600kg number suggested a European sourced supplement. *US STC's
> would likely be in SAE units.
>
> It appears there is a MOGAS STC issued in Switzerland to Wenger &
> Kaufmann for PA-18-180-M and PA-18-150 glider tugs. *In pursuit of the
> STC the glider tow performance (takeoff roll, climb rate) was measured
> with a 600kg glider in tow. *Since that is the heaviest glider tested,
> that became the limit for the STC. *This may or may not the source of
> S1A-77 but it shows how it can happen. *There are LOTS of different
> STC's for PA-18 around the world.
>
> This is a bit if a diversion but most recent European 2-seaters
> specify 600kg (Actually, 600 daN) weak links for aero tow. *If these
> gliders are operated in strict compliance with their Approved Flight
> Manuals as required by FAR 91.9, 600kg would be the max load on the
> tug.
>
> I have been assuming (possibly in error) that you are in the US.

I am in Sweden

Thanks for your info

Robert

[Ventus_a]

On Apr 22, 4:43*pm, Robert Danewid wrote:
Thanks

My problem is that some one has found a supplement named S1A-77 to the Flight Manual of a 180 hp PA 18 that says that max glider weigth is 600 kg. Can any one send me or direct me to that supplement.

It does not make sense...... We have been towing gliders 600 kg with PA 18 150/180 since the early 80ies.

Robert

OK, having nothing else to do this afternoon, I did some research.
The 600kg number suggested a European sourced supplement. US STC's
would likely be in SAE units.

It appears there is a MOGAS STC issued in Switzerland to Wenger &
Kaufmann for PA-18-180-M and PA-18-150 glider tugs. In pursuit of the
STC the glider tow performance (takeoff roll, climb rate) was measured
with a 600kg glider in tow. Since that is the heaviest glider tested,
that became the limit for the STC. This may or may not the source of
S1A-77 but it shows how it can happen. There are LOTS of different
STC's for PA-18 around the world.

This is a bit if a diversion but most recent European 2-seaters
specify 600kg (Actually, 600 daN) weak links for aero tow. If these
gliders are operated in strict compliance with their Approved Flight
Manuals as required by FAR 91.9, 600kg would be the max load on the
tug.

I have been assuming (possibly in error) that you are in the US.


Can't agree that most recent European 2 seaters specify 600kg weaklinks for aerotow. The Duo Discus for example is 50% or so higher and the DG 1000 is higher again at 1100 DaN

Having said all that here in New Zealand there are some operations that use PA-18 180s and they variously tow Duos and ASH 25s so they are well capable of handling the bigger ships subject to density altitude considerations

Colin

[Bill D]

On Apr 23, 3:20*pm, Ventus_a >
wrote:
> Bill D;813718 Wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 22, 4:43*pm, Robert Danewid wrote:-
> > Thanks
>
> > My problem is that some one has found a supplement named S1A-77 to the
> > Flight Manual of a 180 hp PA 18 that says that max glider weigth is 600
> > kg. Can any one send me or direct me to that supplement.
>
> > It does not make sense...... We have been towing gliders 600 kg with PA
> > 18 150/180 since the early 80ies.
>
> > Robert-
>
> > OK, having nothing else to do this afternoon, I did some research.
> > The 600kg number suggested a European sourced supplement. *US STC's
> > would likely be in SAE units.
>
> > It appears there is a MOGAS STC issued in Switzerland to Wenger &
> > Kaufmann for PA-18-180-M and PA-18-150 glider tugs. *In pursuit of the
> > STC the glider tow performance (takeoff roll, climb rate) was measured
> > with a 600kg glider in tow. *Since that is the heaviest glider tested,
> > that became the limit for the STC. *This may or may not the source of
> > S1A-77 but it shows how it can happen. *There are LOTS of different
> > STC's for PA-18 around the world.
>
> > This is a bit if a diversion but most recent European 2-seaters
> > specify 600kg (Actually, 600 daN) weak links for aero tow. *If these
> > gliders are operated in strict compliance with their Approved Flight
> > Manuals as required by FAR 91.9, 600kg would be the max load on the
> > tug.
>
> > I have been assuming (possibly in error) that you are in the US.
>
> Can't agree that most recent European 2 seaters specify 600kg weaklinks
> for aerotow. *The Duo Discus for example is 50% or so higher and the DG
> 1000 is higher again at 1100 DaN
>
> Having said all that here in New Zealand there are some operations that
> use PA-18 180s and they variously tow Duos and ASH 25s so they are well
> capable of handling the bigger ships subject to density altitude
> considerations
>
> Colin
>
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> Ventus_a

From the DG-1000 manual page 2.10: "6000 N + 600 N (1323 lbs. + 132
lbs.) for tow
behind slow tow planes" Which I think would include a PA-18.

The Duo allows a 700 daN weak link but that's not 50% higher.

[olddogcirrus]

I did a lot of the fly off time for Dave Johnson when he was
developing his original STC for the first 180hp Cubs.
The climb performance over a stock 150hp Cub was amazing. With the
150hp Cubs, we could not tow
the 2-32's out of the Black Forest Gliderport (elevation 7200') when
the temperature got much over 70ºF.
With the 180hp, there really was no limitation on glider weights or
density altitude for our ops requirements.
We even towed a few gliders out of Leadville (10,000') several times,
and flew fully loaded 2-32's out of
Aspen, Gunnison, Durango, and several other high altitude airports
without problems during Dave's annual glider
caravans around the state of Colorado. That was something we couldn't
do with the 150 Cub.

One particularly rememberable tow was into the wave near Pikes Peak,
when the wave wasn't really working.
For whatever reason, the 2-32 pilot wouldn't release, and the tow was
continued until I waved him off at
18,000' (Old days, Positive Control Airspace began at FL240 then).

Steve
PS

[Ventus_a]

On Apr 23, 3:20*pm, Ventus_a
wrote:
Bill D;813718 Wrote:

snip

Can't agree that most recent European 2 seaters specify 600kg weaklinks
for aerotow. *The Duo Discus for example is 50% or so higher and the DG
1000 is higher again at 1100 DaN

Having said all that here in New Zealand there are some operations that
use PA-18 180s and they variously tow Duos and ASH 25s so they are well
capable of handling the bigger ships subject to density altitude
considerations

Colin

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--
Ventus_a

From the DG-1000 manual page 2.10: "6000 N + 600 N (1323 lbs. + 132
lbs.) for tow
behind slow tow planes" Which I think would include a PA-18.

The Duo allows a 700 daN weak link but that's not 50% higher.

Don't tell half the story Bill.

The cockpit placard for towing in the Duo specifies 910 daN as the maximum with out referencing the minimun allowed (700 daN) as stated in the flight manual. My mistake for not quoting the allowable range in my original post. I should also have said 'up to 50% or so higher" :-)

The DG manual says regarding 'slow' tow planes, "for tow behind slow towplanes eg. Ultralight planes or touring motorgliders". Last time I looked a PA-18 150 or PA-18 180 was neither an ultralight or a touring motorglider

Colin

[Robert Danewid[_2_]]

Guys

This is not a question about weak links or the capability in practice. We have been towing gliders >600 kg with Super Cub 150/180 for more than 30 years. The problem is that someone recently found a supplement to the Flight Manual stating that the Super Cub is limited to tow gliders <600 kg and now wants us to put a 600 kg limit on all Cubs. (Yes I know..........)

It seems that Piper never delivered a Cub with a tow hook so all installations are done on a National level with National approvals. Do you know of any such approval that you can direct me to? Especially in Europe.

Thanks
Robert

[Steve]

Checked FAA Advisory Circular 43-13.2, Chapter 8. May or may not help Euro ops, but...
Early on it explains how the structural limits of various tow aircraft are determined. There is a simple formula given for that determination. Tow limits for US aircraft are based on structural limits for the aircraft, not performance limits. Generally, the FAA uses the breaking strength of the tow rope to determine the max weight of the towed glider. Also that weight is usually placarded around 1200 lbs. maximum towline strength to comply with the structural limitations, depending on the aircraft.

In conjunction with that, the FAA also states operationally that the tow line strength for the glider must be no less the 80% of the glider weight or no more than 200% of that weight. So, at least in the US, a tug with a 1200 lb, tow line limit can legally and theoretically to up to a 1500 lb glider (Cub and 2-32?), and still be with in the limits of the towing aircraft. The aircraft performance capabilities are another story and are the responsibility of the operator.

Don't know if this could help or not.

Linwood

[BruceGreeff]

Yet another corollary on Murphies Law:

The authorities will stuff it up in imaginative and contrary ways that
belie rational belief...

The others are:
Things will go wrong in the worst possible way
Murphy was an optimist, and
There is always one more idiot than you would have thought possible...

Bruce
On 2012/04/24 8:41 PM, Robert Danewid wrote:
> Guys
>
> This is not a question about weak links or the capability in practice. We have been towing gliders>600 kg with Super Cub 150/180 for more than 30 years. The problem is that someone recently found a supplement to the Flight Manual stating that the Super Cub is limited to tow gliders<600 kg and now wants us to put a 600 kg limit on all Cubs. (Yes I know..........)
>
> It seems that Piper never delivered a Cub with a tow hook so all installations are done on a National level with National approvals. Do you know of any such approval that you can direct me to? Especially in Europe.
>
> Thanks
> Robert

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

[Bert TW]

Our club operates a PA 180 HP with a four blade prop. Max mass of the
towed glider per flight manual is 620 kg (decreasing with density
altitude). Max mass of the PA during towing operations is 690kg.
I did look it up a couple of weeks ago to know whether it could tow an
ASH25 with two pilots - which it can't.

[Bert TW]

On Apr 25, 2:39*pm, Bert TW > wrote:
> Our club operates a PA 180 HP with a four blade prop. Max mass of the
> towed glider per flight manual is 620 kg (decreasing with density
> altitude). Max mass of the PA during towing operations is 690kg.
> I did look it up a couple of weeks ago to know whether it could tow an
> ASH25 with two pilots - which it can't.

Oups, forgot - we're in Switzerland.

[Bill D]

On Apr 24, 2:58*pm, Steve > wrote:
> Checked FAA Advisory Circular 43-13.2, Chapter 8. *May or may not help Euro ops, but...
> Early on it explains how the structural limits of various tow aircraft are determined. *There is a simple formula given for that determination. *Tow limits for US aircraft are based on structural limits for the aircraft, not performance limits. *Generally, the FAA uses the breaking strength of the tow rope to determine the max weight of the towed glider. *Also that weight is usually placarded around 1200 lbs. maximum towline strength to comply with the structural limitations, depending on the aircraft.
>
> In conjunction with that, the FAA also states operationally that the tow line strength for the glider must be no less the 80% of the glider weight or no more than 200% of that weight. *So, at least in the US, a tug with a 1200 lb, tow line limit can legally and theoretically to up to a 1500 lb glider (Cub and 2-32?), and still be with in the limits of the towing aircraft. The aircraft performance capabilities are another story and are the responsibility of the operator.
>
> Don't know if this could help or not.
>
> Linwood

It appears AC 43-13.2 Ch. 8 needs updating.

91.9 requires gliders be operated in strict compliance with their
flight manuals.
These manuals are calling out aero tow weak links much stronger than
1200 Lb-F.
91.309 requires either the rope or a weak link at the tug to be
stronger than the glider link.
The result is the tug hook needs to be much stronger than 1200 Lb-F.

We need to be using Tost tug hooks and that installation should be
stronger than the 2570 Lb-F Tost load limit.

[David Bullock]

At 12:40 25 April 2012, Bert TW wrote:
>On Apr 25, 2:39=A0pm, Bert TW wrote:
>> Our club operates a PA 180 HP with a four blade prop. Max mass of the
>> towed glider per flight manual is 620 kg (decreasing with density
>> altitude). Max mass of the PA during towing operations is 690kg.
>> I did look it up a couple of weeks ago to know whether it could tow an
>> ASH25 with two pilots - which it can't.
>
>Oups, forgot - we're in Switzerland.
>
In the UK the PA18-150 is cleared to tow up to 2 gliders max combined
weight 1900lb (862kg), and the PA18-180 cleared to tow up to two gliders
max combined weight 2400lb (1088kg). The weak link in the tow rope has to
be maximum 1000lb (454kg) if towing 1 glider, and a maximum of 1300lb
(590kg) if towing two gliders.
This is all on the CAA change sheet No.1, (dated 25 April 1980) to FAA
approved flight manual report 1054, which is the PA18 Super Cub UK manual.

Hope that helps

Dave Bullock