Max towing weigth for PA-18 150 hp and 180 hp?

What is the max towing weight (max weight of the glider) for the PA-18 150 hp and 180hp?

Where can I find information on this (on the net).

Thanks!

Robert
ASW 28-18E

On Sunday, April 22, 2012 3:06:13 PM UTC-4, Robert Danewid wrote:
What is the max towing weight (max weight of the glider) for the PA-18 150 hp and 180hp?

Where can I find information on this (on the net).

Thanks!

Robert
ASW 28-18E

I have never seen any Piper limitations published.
The tow hook installed is likely the limiting factor.
FWIW
UH

On Apr 22, 1:06*pm, Robert Danewid wrote:
What is the max towing weight (max weight of the glider) for the PA-18 150 hp and 180hp?

Where can I find information on this (on the net).

Thanks!

Robert
ASW 28-18E

As long as a Tost hook is installed, there are practically no limits.
There are two 180 HP PA-18's operating out of Boulder, CO where
density altitudes can reach 9,000'. They routinely tow fully loaded 2-
seaters. The PA-18-150 has significantly less performance which is
why none are used in Colorado. While information on hooks is
available on-line, towing performance probably isn't.

I recall the late Dave Johnson, who developed the STC for the 180HP
Cub, saying a 180 HP Lyc. O-360 is only a few pounds heavier than the
original O-320. He went on to say it seems like the extra 30HP
provides a lot more performance than one would expect.

The Schweizer tow plane hook has a limit of 1200 pounds which is
inadequate for heavier gliders but the Tost hook limit is 2570 Lb
which easily handles any glider. For that and a lot of other reasons,
the Schweizer hook should be retired.

Thanks

My problem is that some one has found a supplement named S1A-77 to the Flight Manual of a 180 hp PA 18 that says that max glider weigth is 600 kg. Can any one send me or direct me to that supplement.

It does not make sense...... We have been towing gliders 600 kg with PA 18 150/180 since the early 80ies.

Robert

At first blush I'd say that information was not from the USA. I don't recall ever seeing any US aviation restriction stated in kilos, but I could be wrong. Just a thought.

On Apr 22, 4:43*pm, Robert Danewid wrote:
Thanks

My problem is that some one has found a supplement named S1A-77 to the Flight Manual of a 180 hp PA 18 that says that max glider weigth is 600 kg. Can any one send me or direct me to that supplement.

It does not make sense...... We have been towing gliders 600 kg with PA 18 150/180 since the early 80ies.

Robert

OK, having nothing else to do this afternoon, I did some research.
The 600kg number suggested a European sourced supplement. US STC's
would likely be in SAE units.

It appears there is a MOGAS STC issued in Switzerland to Wenger &
Kaufmann for PA-18-180-M and PA-18-150 glider tugs. In pursuit of the
STC the glider tow performance (takeoff roll, climb rate) was measured
with a 600kg glider in tow. Since that is the heaviest glider tested,
that became the limit for the STC. This may or may not the source of
S1A-77 but it shows how it can happen. There are LOTS of different
STC's for PA-18 around the world.

This is a bit if a diversion but most recent European 2-seaters
specify 600kg (Actually, 600 daN) weak links for aero tow. If these
gliders are operated in strict compliance with their Approved Flight
Manuals as required by FAR 91.9, 600kg would be the max load on the
tug.

I have been assuming (possibly in error) that you are in the US.

On 23 Apr, 03:08, Bill D wrote:
On Apr 22, 4:43*pm, Robert Danewid wrote:

Thanks

My problem is that some one has found a supplement named S1A-77 to the Flight Manual of a 180 hp PA 18 that says that max glider weigth is 600 kg. Can any one send me or direct me to that supplement.

It does not make sense...... We have been towing gliders 600 kg with PA 18 150/180 since the early 80ies.

Robert

OK, having nothing else to do this afternoon, I did some research.
The 600kg number suggested a European sourced supplement. *US STC's
would likely be in SAE units.

It appears there is a MOGAS STC issued in Switzerland to Wenger &
Kaufmann for PA-18-180-M and PA-18-150 glider tugs. *In pursuit of the
STC the glider tow performance (takeoff roll, climb rate) was measured
with a 600kg glider in tow. *Since that is the heaviest glider tested,
that became the limit for the STC. *This may or may not the source of
S1A-77 but it shows how it can happen. *There are LOTS of different
STC's for PA-18 around the world.

This is a bit if a diversion but most recent European 2-seaters
specify 600kg (Actually, 600 daN) weak links for aero tow. *If these
gliders are operated in strict compliance with their Approved Flight
Manuals as required by FAR 91.9, 600kg would be the max load on the
tug.

I have been assuming (possibly in error) that you are in the US.

I am in Sweden

Thanks for your info

Robert

Originally Posted by Bill D

On Apr 22, 4:43*pm, Robert Danewid wrote:
Thanks

My problem is that some one has found a supplement named S1A-77 to the Flight Manual of a 180 hp PA 18 that says that max glider weigth is 600 kg. Can any one send me or direct me to that supplement.

It does not make sense...... We have been towing gliders 600 kg with PA 18 150/180 since the early 80ies.

Robert

OK, having nothing else to do this afternoon, I did some research.
The 600kg number suggested a European sourced supplement. US STC's
would likely be in SAE units.

It appears there is a MOGAS STC issued in Switzerland to Wenger &
Kaufmann for PA-18-180-M and PA-18-150 glider tugs. In pursuit of the
STC the glider tow performance (takeoff roll, climb rate) was measured
with a 600kg glider in tow. Since that is the heaviest glider tested,
that became the limit for the STC. This may or may not the source of
S1A-77 but it shows how it can happen. There are LOTS of different
STC's for PA-18 around the world.

This is a bit if a diversion but most recent European 2-seaters
specify 600kg (Actually, 600 daN) weak links for aero tow. If these
gliders are operated in strict compliance with their Approved Flight
Manuals as required by FAR 91.9, 600kg would be the max load on the
tug.

I have been assuming (possibly in error) that you are in the US.

Can't agree that most recent European 2 seaters specify 600kg weaklinks for aerotow. The Duo Discus for example is 50% or so higher and the DG 1000 is higher again at 1100 DaN

Having said all that here in New Zealand there are some operations that use PA-18 180s and they variously tow Duos and ASH 25s so they are well capable of handling the bigger ships subject to density altitude considerations

Colin

On Apr 23, 3:20*pm, Ventus_a
wrote:
Bill D;813718 Wrote:









On Apr 22, 4:43*pm, Robert Danewid wrote:-
Thanks

My problem is that some one has found a supplement named S1A-77 to the
Flight Manual of a 180 hp PA 18 that says that max glider weigth is 600
kg. Can any one send me or direct me to that supplement.

It does not make sense...... We have been towing gliders 600 kg with PA
18 150/180 since the early 80ies.

Robert-

OK, having nothing else to do this afternoon, I did some research.
The 600kg number suggested a European sourced supplement. *US STC's
would likely be in SAE units.

It appears there is a MOGAS STC issued in Switzerland to Wenger &
Kaufmann for PA-18-180-M and PA-18-150 glider tugs. *In pursuit of the
STC the glider tow performance (takeoff roll, climb rate) was measured
with a 600kg glider in tow. *Since that is the heaviest glider tested,
that became the limit for the STC. *This may or may not the source of
S1A-77 but it shows how it can happen. *There are LOTS of different
STC's for PA-18 around the world.

This is a bit if a diversion but most recent European 2-seaters
specify 600kg (Actually, 600 daN) weak links for aero tow. *If these
gliders are operated in strict compliance with their Approved Flight
Manuals as required by FAR 91.9, 600kg would be the max load on the
tug.

I have been assuming (possibly in error) that you are in the US.

Can't agree that most recent European 2 seaters specify 600kg weaklinks
for aerotow. *The Duo Discus for example is 50% or so higher and the DG
1000 is higher again at 1100 DaN

Having said all that here in New Zealand there are some operations that
use PA-18 180s and they variously tow Duos and ASH 25s so they are well
capable of handling the bigger ships subject to density altitude
considerations

Colin

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Ventus_a

From the DG-1000 manual page 2.10: "6000 N + 600 N (1323 lbs. + 132
lbs.) for tow
behind slow tow planes" Which I think would include a PA-18.

The Duo allows a 700 daN weak link but that's not 50% higher.

I did a lot of the fly off time for Dave Johnson when he was
developing his original STC for the first 180hp Cubs.
The climb performance over a stock 150hp Cub was amazing. With the
150hp Cubs, we could not tow
the 2-32's out of the Black Forest Gliderport (elevation 7200') when
the temperature got much over 70ºF.
With the 180hp, there really was no limitation on glider weights or
density altitude for our ops requirements.
We even towed a few gliders out of Leadville (10,000') several times,
and flew fully loaded 2-32's out of
Aspen, Gunnison, Durango, and several other high altitude airports
without problems during Dave's annual glider
caravans around the state of Colorado. That was something we couldn't
do with the 150 Cub.

One particularly rememberable tow was into the wave near Pikes Peak,
when the wave wasn't really working.
For whatever reason, the 2-32 pilot wouldn't release, and the tow was
continued until I waved him off at
18,000' (Old days, Positive Control Airspace began at FL240 then).

Steve
PS