Logging time as safety pilot?

[CFLav8r]

I recently helped a friend fly to St. Augustine from Orlando.
My question is: Can or should you log the time as safety pilot?
Although I did not actually fly the aircraft, I did handle the radios and
visual guide while my friend flew under the hood.

David (KORL)

[BTIZ]

you can only log the time as acting PIC when either your hands are on the
controls, or you are acting as safety pilot while he is under the hood.. any
other time is not loggable..

but to act as safety pilot for someone under the hood.. you have to hold at
least a private pilot certificate and be qualified to fly the aircraft

some will state, that if it is a complex aircraft, you need the complex
endorsement, same for high performance, or tail dragger

BT

"CFLav8r" > wrote in message
. com...
> I recently helped a friend fly to St. Augustine from Orlando.
> My question is: Can or should you log the time as safety pilot?
> Although I did not actually fly the aircraft, I did handle the radios and
> visual guide while my friend flew under the hood.
>
> David (KORL)
>
>

[Teacherjh]

>>
you can only log the time as acting PIC when either your hands are on the
controls, or you are acting as safety pilot while he is under the hood.. any
other time is not loggable..
<<

If you are really a safety pilot (he's under the hood and you are responsible
for aluminum and granite), then if you are ALSO acting as PIC you can log PIC
time. The other pilot can also log PIC time as "sole manipulator" even though
he's not acting as PIC.

However, if the safety pilot is NOT ACTING as PIC (and not the final authority
as to the operation of the aircraft), then he cannot log PIC. (If he is the
sole manipulator of the controls too, he's not the safety pilot, he's the real
pilot). However, he can log SIC time as a required crewmember.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Newps]

Except for about 12 people in the world, all of them here on this board,
everybody would just log the time as PIC.



CFLav8r wrote:

> I recently helped a friend fly to St. Augustine from Orlando.
> My question is: Can or should you log the time as safety pilot?
> Although I did not actually fly the aircraft, I did handle the radios and
> visual guide while my friend flew under the hood.
>
> David (KORL)
>
>

[Dave S]

Assuming an aircraft that normally only requires a crew of ONE..

Safety pilot time is SIC (except as noted).. during that period of time
the friend is under the hood, the safety pilot is a "required crewmember".

However, during this period of time, if BOTH of you agree that you (the
safety pilot) ARE the PIC, then you can log it as PIC during the period
of time the friend is under the hood. The hood friend can also log it as
PIC as sole manipulator. Keep in mind.. if the airplane goes somewhere
it shouldnt, or something happens the PIC is likely to be held
accountable.. so a little bit of trust is in order.

The question is answered somewhat in the FAA FAQ's section regarding
Part 61 on their website (at least it was at one time).

Dave

BTIZ wrote:
> you can only log the time as acting PIC when either your hands are on the
> controls, or you are acting as safety pilot while he is under the hood.. any
> other time is not loggable..
>
> but to act as safety pilot for someone under the hood.. you have to hold at
> least a private pilot certificate and be qualified to fly the aircraft
>
> some will state, that if it is a complex aircraft, you need the complex
> endorsement, same for high performance, or tail dragger
>
> BT
>
> "CFLav8r" > wrote in message
> . com...
>
>>I recently helped a friend fly to St. Augustine from Orlando.
>>My question is: Can or should you log the time as safety pilot?
>>Although I did not actually fly the aircraft, I did handle the radios and
>>visual guide while my friend flew under the hood.
>>
>>David (KORL)
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:39:42 -0800, "BTIZ" >
wrote:

>some will state, that if it is a complex aircraft, you need the complex
>endorsement, same for high performance, or tail dragger

And for acting as safety pilot, those who so state would be wrong.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 02:31:21 GMT, "CFLav8r" >
wrote:

>I recently helped a friend fly to St. Augustine from Orlando.
>My question is: Can or should you log the time as safety pilot?
>Although I did not actually fly the aircraft, I did handle the radios and
>visual guide while my friend flew under the hood.

If you acted as safety pilot, and were legally qualified to do so (i.e.
current medical and rated in category & class), then you may log SIC time.

In order to log PIC time, as others are suggesting, you would need to be
qualified to act as PIC in the a/c (i.e. all endorsements, currency
requirements, etc.) and, according to FAA legal counsel, also have had an
agreement with the pilot flying, prior to the flight, that you would be
legally responsible for the flight of the aircraft.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[CFLav8r]

> If you acted as safety pilot, and were legally qualified to do so (i.e.
> current medical and rated in category & class), then you may log SIC time.
>
> In order to log PIC time, as others are suggesting, you would need to be
> qualified to act as PIC in the a/c (i.e. all endorsements, currency
> requirements, etc.) and, according to FAA legal counsel, also have had an
> agreement with the pilot flying, prior to the flight, that you would be
> legally responsible for the flight of the aircraft.
>
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
>
Well to clarify, I do have all the requirements met.
I am a private pilot, checked out in the C172SP that we flew and I am
current.
Our agreement as safety pilot was that I would be the eyes outside the
aircraft to
see and avoid other aircraft (such as the B727 that took off from SFB and
crossed
ahead of our path.).
It is the see and avoid that I believe makes me responsible for the over all
flight path.
Since this was under-the-hood flying and not actual IMC it was also my
responsibility
to decide if the aircraft was under the proper control and to assume control
should I
feel it to be necessary.

David (KORL)

[Teacherjh]

>>
Our agreement as safety pilot was that I would be the eyes outside the
aircraft to see and avoid other aircraft (such as the B727 that took off from
SFB and
crossed ahead of our path.).
It is the see and avoid that I believe makes me responsible for the over all
flight path.
<<

Nope. Your agreement was you were the eyes outside the aircraft. This does
not make you the "final authority as to the operation of the aircraft". You
are a sensor, not a processor. The other pilot is still responsible for
responding to your input in an appropriate manner. Even if you are compelled
to grab the yoke to prevent an inadvertant customization of the aircraft (which
would fall under the responsiblity as safety pilot), you are still not PIC.

Not by the agreement you describe above.

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Robert Henry]

"CFLav8r" > wrote in message
. com...

> >
> Well to clarify, I do have all the requirements met.
> I am a private pilot, checked out in the C172SP that we flew and I am
> current.
> Our agreement as safety pilot was that I would be the eyes outside the
> aircraft to
> see and avoid other aircraft (such as the B727 that took off from SFB and
> crossed
> ahead of our path.).
>

Your medical is current too, right?

The question is: If there were an incident or an accident (e.g., bust a TFR,
clip a Class B shelf, fly too low in a congested area with no intention of
landing, etc. etc.) am I going to accept the consequences of PIC
responsibility because I had final authority to prevent these issues? I'm
guessing that since the pilot flying didn't say, "make sure we're above
3000' when we overfly Disney", or something similar, there was no pre-flight
understanding that you were acting PIC. It sounds more like you spotted
traffic and the pilot flying was responsible for maneuvering the aircraft to
avoid it, which is not PIC.

That said, how you log it is up to you, but if you ever need to explain that
log entry, you need an answer/response that includes a concurring statement
from the pilot flying under the hood and your concurrence that you
understood the legal consequences if the FAR was violated during that time.

Just a thought, but in the grand scheme of things total time is important
too.

[G.R. Patterson III]

BTIZ wrote:
>
> some will state, that if it is a complex aircraft, you need the complex
> endorsement, same for high performance, or tail dragger

Those that do are wrong. You need to be rated in category and class; that's all.
You only need the endorsements to act as PIC.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

[BTIZ]

agreed.. but thrown out there for further discussion..

I wonder what the FAQ file for Part 61 says... mmmm

BT

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:39:42 -0800, "BTIZ" >
> wrote:
>
> >some will state, that if it is a complex aircraft, you need the complex
> >endorsement, same for high performance, or tail dragger
>
> And for acting as safety pilot, those who so state would be wrong.
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 09:33:19 -0800, "BTIZ" > wrote:

>I wonder what the FAQ file for Part 61 says... mmmm


Are you talking about the FAQ's before or after Pinkston's initial
interpretation was corrected?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[BTIZ]

Revision 19, John D Lynch:

QUESTION: According to § 91.109(b), a safety pilot must possess at least a
private certificate with appropriate category & class ratings. Is it
necessary for that safety pilot to be "current" in the aircraft (landings,
etc.)? Requirements of 61.55 specifically exempt safety pilots [§
61.55(d)(4)], but where are the safety pilot criteria actually spelled out.
§ 61.57 refers to pilot-in-command requirements, but a safety pilot is not
PIC, only a required crew member. Further, has there ever been an
interpretation that the safety pilot must be Instrument Rated for that type
of VFR operation?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.31(d)(1); § 61.51(e)(1)(iii), § 61.51(f)(2), § 61.3(c); §
61.56(c), § 61.57(c); A safety pilot is a "required crewmember" and must
hold at least a valid private pilot certificate with category and class
ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown per § 91.109(b) and a valid
medical certificate per § 61.3(c). A valid pilot certificate is one which
has not been revoked or under suspension.

That person who is serving as a safety pilot may choose to act as the legal
pilot-in-command (per 14 CFR part 1) and log the time as PIC [per §
61.51(e)(1)(iii)], or otherwise log the time as SIC time [per §
61.51(f)(2)], but is not even required to log the time at all. However, the
safety pilot's name must be logged by the person practicing instrument
flight [per § 61.51(g)(3)(ii)]. If the safety pilot is going to act as the
legal PIC for the flight that person must ". . . Hold the appropriate
category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type rating are
required) for the aircraft to be flown;" [per § 61.31(d)(1)]. ). And if the
flight is conducted in a high performance, complex, tail wheel, etc.
aircraft and the safety pilot is acting as the legal PIC that pilot must
have the appropriate endorsements that are required by § 61.31(e), (f)
and/or (i), as appropriate. This could be a reason why a safety pilot might
only be able to serve as an SIC and log it as SIC time.



"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 09:33:19 -0800, "BTIZ" >
wrote:
>
> >I wonder what the FAQ file for Part 61 says... mmmm
>
>
> Are you talking about the FAQ's before or after Pinkston's initial
> interpretation was corrected?
>
>
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 21:16:18 -0800, "BTIZ" > wrote:

>And if the
>flight is conducted in a high performance, complex, tail wheel, etc.
>aircraft and the safety pilot is acting as the legal PIC

Yes but that answer specifically refers only to the safety pilot acting as
*PIC*.

It does NOT refer to the safety pilot acting as a safety pilot (or logging
SIC time).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Teacherjh]

>>
(from the FAQ) "And if the
flight is conducted in a high performance, complex, tail wheel, etc.
aircraft and the safety pilot is acting as the legal PIC that pilot must
have the appropriate endorsements that are required by § 61.31(e), (f)
and/or (i), as appropriate. This could be a reason why a safety pilot might
only be able to serve as an SIC and log it as SIC time."

Yes but that answer specifically refers only to the safety pilot acting as
*PIC*. It does NOT refer to the safety pilot acting as a safety pilot (or
logging
SIC time).
<<

I would take that omission to mean that to act as safety pilot and not PIC one
does not need those endorsements.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Stealth Pilot]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 02:31:21 GMT, "CFLav8r" >
wrote:

>I recently helped a friend fly to St. Augustine from Orlando.
>My question is: Can or should you log the time as safety pilot?
>Although I did not actually fly the aircraft, I did handle the radios and
>visual guide while my friend flew under the hood.
>
>David (KORL)
>

the phase of your flying life where logging of time is so important is
when you are accumulating the hours for a higher rating.

if you showed up for an interview with the bulk of your hours toward
the rating as safety pilot time do you think that anyone would take it
seriously?

log the important hours, not the useless stuff.

just be happy in the thought that one of your mates thought enough of
you to invite you along. you might need the same assistance at the
other end of your flying life yourself.

Stealth ( I log tacho time ) Pilot
oz.

[CFLav8r]

> the phase of your flying life where logging of time is so important is
> when you are accumulating the hours for a higher rating.
>
The phase of my life is over forty and not interested in a flying career.
I am merely trying to find out what colum to mark the times in.
I am quite aware of what hours I need for my instrument rating that I am
working on
and fully aware that no part of safety pilot will that count towards that.

> if you showed up for an interview with the bulk of your hours toward
> the rating as safety pilot time do you think that anyone would take it
> seriously?
>
I'm not applying for any jobs.

> log the important hours, not the useless stuff.
>
I try to log every minute in the air as a so-called journal the way Richard
L Collins
has suggested as a great way of keeping track of where you have been
and how you got there. Its in one of his videos from Sportys.

> just be happy in the thought that one of your mates thought enough of
> you to invite you along. you might need the same assistance at the
> other end of your flying life yourself.
>
My friend could not have made that flight if it wasn't for me.
His other option was to take an instructor with him that would charge
him for his time.
But you are partially right about one thing, I will invite him along whether
I need
his assistance or not.
Because as a pilot I know most of us will use any excuse to fly.
If I were asked to come along on a flight to pickup Brillo pads and we were
flying there, I would always say yes as most of us that love to fly would.

> Stealth ( I log tacho time ) Pilot
> oz.
>

David (KORL)

[Ron Natalie]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message news:KFZSb.2742$IF1.246@fed1read01...

> but to act as safety pilot for someone under the hood.. you have to hold at
> least a private pilot certificate and be qualified to fly the aircraft

Nope, you just need to be rated in category and class (presuming the aircraft
doesn't need a type rating).

> some will state, that if it is a complex aircraft, you need the complex
> endorsement, same for high performance, or tail dragger

That is only required if you are going to be pilot in command.

A safety pilot is not necessarily pilot in command.

A guy helping in an aircraft or operation only requiring one pilot is
called a passenger.

[Ron Natalie]

"Dave S" > wrote in message nk.net...
> Keep in mind.. if the airplane goes somewhere
> it shouldnt, or something happens the PIC is likely to be held
> accountable.. so a little bit of trust is in order.
>

In practice, all pilots aboard are going to be held accountable. The
enforcement action will follow the one most likely to be harmed by the
action rather than any sense of responsibility. The FAA is not interested
in justice nor safety.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 02 Feb 2004 13:20:16 GMT, (Teacherjh) wrote:

>I would take that omission to mean that to act as safety pilot and not PIC one
>does not need those endorsements.

Exactly.

When the regs state "category and class" that is exactly what they mean.
So, for example, if your certificate reads Airplane, Single Engine Land,
and you have a current medical, and you've never flown anything other than
a Cessna 150, you could still act as a safety pilot in any Single Engine
Land a/c that does not require a type rating. And you could log SIC time.




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[[email protected]]

My response is not crossposted as the intial post was, as crossposting
is evil and wrong.

a) I logged a flight where I was safety pilot for a guy getting IFR
current, as PIC time, two or three years ago. However, my ego and/or
conscience won't let me do it again, and were it not so far back in my
logbook as to be really ugly to reverse it, I'd do it. I now think it's
a lame way to log PIC time. It's great experience, and a great help to
the other fellow, but not loggable in (my) good conscience.

b) in my (log)book, Second in Command time is worthless. What's it good
for, really?

Disclaimer: I'm hungry for PIC hours, as I have aspirations to be a
commercial pilot, in order to fulfill my mid-life-crisis-founded need
for an eventual career change. But, safety pilot time doesn't cut the
mustard for me.

Dave Blevins

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 02:31:21 GMT, "CFLav8r" >
wrote:

>I recently helped a friend fly to St. Augustine from Orlando.
>My question is: Can or should you log the time as safety pilot?
>Although I did not actually fly the aircraft, I did handle the radios and
>visual guide while my friend flew under the hood.
>
>David (KORL)
>

[Robert Moore]

wrote

> b) in my (log)book, Second in Command time is worthless. What's it good
> for, really?

I make the following comments based on my experience as Chief-pilot
for three Part 121 aircarriers and Director of Operations for another.
In these positions, I was responsible for the employment of flightcrew
members for the respective aircarrier.

I observed the poorest performance from an individual with no logged
SIC time. He had several thousand hours of light twin time in single
pilot operations. He had received no training nor experience in two
of the most basic principles of commercial aircarrier flightcrew
operations, "the crew concept" and "cockpit resource management".
Time spent as a SIC without doubt improves one's performance as a PIC
in commercial multi-pilot operations.


From my personal experience, when, just back from Vietnam, I was employed
by Pan American Airways, along with numerous other "just released"
military pilots, it was very obvious that the single-seat "top-guns" did
not progress through training nearly as well as did many of the multi-
engine pilots who, because of their senority, had not progressed beyond
SIC status while on active duty. Commercial flight operations require
much less in terms of being a "good stick" and a lot more in being a "team
player".

SIC time DOES count!

Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)
Air Florida (former DO)

[Teacherjh]

>>
b) in my (log)book, Second in Command time is worthless. What's it good
for, really?

Disclaimer: I'm hungry for PIC hours, as I have aspirations to be a
commercial pilot, in order to fulfill my mid-life-crisis-founded need
for an eventual career change. But, safety pilot time doesn't cut the
mustard for me.
--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Teacherjh]

>>
b) in my (log)book, Second in Command time is worthless. What's it good
for, really?

Disclaimer: I'm hungry for PIC hours, as I have aspirations to be a
commercial pilot.
<<

(oops, hit the wrong button a moment ago)

I have read that companies hiring commercial pilots often like to see SIC time,
as it demonstrates cockpit management experience. Safety Pilot time does
involve some of that. I'd say SIC time is valuable for those pursuing a
commercial flying career (though I am not myself a commercial pilot)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Stealth Pilot]

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 14:13:32 GMT, Robert Moore
> wrote:

wrote
>
>> b) in my (log)book, Second in Command time is worthless. What's it good
>> for, really?
>
>I make the following comments based on my experience as Chief-pilot
>for three Part 121 aircarriers and Director of Operations for another.
>In these positions, I was responsible for the employment of flightcrew
>members for the respective aircarrier.
>
>I observed the poorest performance from an individual with no logged
>SIC time. He had several thousand hours of light twin time in single
>pilot operations. He had received no training nor experience in two
>of the most basic principles of commercial aircarrier flightcrew
>operations, "the crew concept" and "cockpit resource management".
>Time spent as a SIC without doubt improves one's performance as a PIC
>in commercial multi-pilot operations.
>
>
>From my personal experience, when, just back from Vietnam, I was employed
>by Pan American Airways, along with numerous other "just released"
>military pilots, it was very obvious that the single-seat "top-guns" did
>not progress through training nearly as well as did many of the multi-
>engine pilots who, because of their senority, had not progressed beyond
>SIC status while on active duty. Commercial flight operations require
>much less in terms of being a "good stick" and a lot more in being a "team
>player".
>
>SIC time DOES count!
>
>Bob Moore
>PanAm (retired)
>Air Florida (former DO)
>
ok I'll buy that.

hmmm I wonder if all the "here take the controls ...see what this
does, see what this does, see what that does, now notice that to make
a level turn you need to use a bit of each, aileron to incline the
lift vector, rudder to counter the adverse yaw, now some elevator to
counter the loss of lift...." should be logged as instructor time :-)
when flying the kids and wives.

nah, pic tacho time in a tailwind has that english sense of
understatement that I like. :-)
Stealth Pilot
Australia

[Andrew Gideon]

Stealth Pilot wrote:

> log the important hours, not the useless stuff.

I'd recommend logging the time. If nothing else, this provides a backup to
the entry in your friend's log. It may also be something you ask later:
when have I been a safety pilot, and for whom?

This is one of the things I learned while diving: logging is as much for the
fun of it as for the tracking of numbers and such.

> just be happy in the thought that one of your mates thought enough of
> you to invite you along. you might need the same assistance at the
> other end of your flying life yourself.

<Sigh> I know what you mean. I remember a rental checkout once with a CFI
that had lost her medical (for a very serious and ongoing problem,
unfortunately, esp. given that she was barely half my age). I was happy to
be part of the team keeping her in the air. I think I may actually have
rented there only once, but that's the checkout that's still most with me.

A CFI friend recently lost his medical. I need to check on what I can do
with him (dual commercial XCs, perhaps), and I'm sure I'm not the only one
with this plan in mind.

- Andrew