Denver Terminal Area Chart Question - BVR vor/dme

[Robert Easton]

Does anybody know why on the Denver Terminal Area Chart, the Byers (BVR
113.5) vor/dme facility is charted without the compass ring that are on most
vortacs? It's the only one I've seen charted like this. Byers is located
33NM on the 090 radial of DVV (the Denver International Vortac).

Thanks, Robert

[Ron Natalie]

"Robert Easton" > wrote in message ...
> Does anybody know why on the Denver Terminal Area Chart, the Byers (BVR
> 113.5) vor/dme facility is charted without the compass ring that are on most
> vortacs? It's the only one I've seen charted like this. Byers is located
> 33NM on the 090 radial of DVV (the Denver International Vortac).
>
The presence or absence of the compass rose on a VOR has no meaning.
It is purely at the discretion of the cartographer to omit it when he feels it
would make the chart too cluttered.

[Kevin Chandler]

We have the same thing on the Cincinnati section for Wright Patterson AFB.
This is only done to relieve some conjestion on the chart.

"Robert Easton" > wrote in message
...
> Does anybody know why on the Denver Terminal Area Chart, the Byers (BVR
> 113.5) vor/dme facility is charted without the compass ring that are on
most
> vortacs? It's the only one I've seen charted like this. Byers is located
> 33NM on the 090 radial of DVV (the Denver International Vortac).
>
> Thanks, Robert
>
>

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> The presence or absence of the compass rose on a VOR has no meaning.
> It is purely at the discretion of the cartographer to omit it when he
feels it
> would make the chart too cluttered.

All right, this makes sense to me. But as someone who is still a student, I
have to ask a question here. Let's say that I'm planning to fly along a
specific VOR radial, and that this radial is not part of an airway. What I
normally do is draw a line on the chart, and then read the radial on this
compass rose. But without the compass rose, how am I supposed to determine
the radial that I need to follow? Most of the VORs in this area have not
been adjusted to keep pace with magnetic variation, and are therefore a few
degrees off from both both the true course and the magnetic course.

I know that I can look up each VORs magnetic variation setting on
airnav.com, but what if that wasn't available?

[Michael 182]

There might be a better way, but I'd just approximate it by looking at the
VOR's nearby. You won't be more than a few degrees off.

Michael

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> > The presence or absence of the compass rose on a VOR has no meaning.
> > It is purely at the discretion of the cartographer to omit it when he
> feels it
> > would make the chart too cluttered.
>
> All right, this makes sense to me. But as someone who is still a student,
I
> have to ask a question here. Let's say that I'm planning to fly along a
> specific VOR radial, and that this radial is not part of an airway. What
I
> normally do is draw a line on the chart, and then read the radial on this
> compass rose. But without the compass rose, how am I supposed to
determine
> the radial that I need to follow? Most of the VORs in this area have not
> been adjusted to keep pace with magnetic variation, and are therefore a
few
> degrees off from both both the true course and the magnetic course.
>
> I know that I can look up each VORs magnetic variation setting on
> airnav.com, but what if that wasn't available?
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> All right, this makes sense to me. But as someone who is still a student,
I
> have to ask a question here. Let's say that I'm planning to fly along a
> specific VOR radial, and that this radial is not part of an airway. What
I
> normally do is draw a line on the chart, and then read the radial on this
> compass rose. But without the compass rose, how am I supposed to
determine
> the radial that I need to follow? Most of the VORs in this area have not
> been adjusted to keep pace with magnetic variation, and are therefore a
few
> degrees off from both both the true course and the magnetic course.
>

Any airways at all from this VOR? Use your protractor to measure the angle
between the radial defining the charted airway and the line you just drew.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Geoffrey Barnes wrote:
>
> All right, this makes sense to me. But as someone who is still a student, I
> have to ask a question here. Let's say that I'm planning to fly along a
> specific VOR radial, and that this radial is not part of an airway. What I
> normally do is draw a line on the chart, and then read the radial on this
> compass rose. But without the compass rose, how am I supposed to determine
> the radial that I need to follow?

Work out the magnetic course with your plotter and fly that radial. Use pilotage
to adjust your course if necessary. One or two degrees inaccuracy in the VOR isn't
enough to cause any real navigation problems. To put it in perspective, if you
blindly follow a radial and the VOR is 2 degrees off, you will be less than half
a mile off course at the end of 20 miles.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

[Ron Natalie]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message ink.net...
course.
>
> I know that I can look up each VORs magnetic variation setting on
> airnav.com, but what if that wasn't available?
>
You're supposed to have sufficient reference material (like the AF/D) with
you during your preflight planning. Them's the rules.

[Peter Duniho]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Any airways at all from this VOR? Use your protractor to measure the
angle
> between the radial defining the charted airway and the line you just drew.

Or even better, just drop the plotter on top of the existing airways and
line up the appropriate degree markings with the airways. Then just read
the magnetic course from the drawn course line underneath the plotter. No
need to measure any angles at all.

This will be better than applying the local variation, since VOR radials are
not kept 100% up-to-date with changes in variation. Using existing airway
headings will ensure that the drawn course matches the radio indication,
even if not the magnetic compass.

Pete

[John Galban]

"Robert Easton" > wrote in message >...
> Does anybody know why on the Denver Terminal Area Chart, the Byers (BVR
> 113.5) vor/dme facility is charted without the compass ring that are on most
> vortacs? It's the only one I've seen charted like this. Byers is located
> 33NM on the 090 radial of DVV (the Denver International Vortac).
>

Compass rings are omitted to reduce clutter on the chart. In this
case, they probably didn't want to superimpose the ring over the big
intersection of Victor airways just to the south.

Here in the Phoenix area we have one without a ring (IWA).

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Bill Denton]

May I suggest you consider picking up a Jeppesen Sanderson PJ-1 Plotter.
It's truly a handy tool!

In this instance, you would just lay the plotter against your pencil line,
then slide it up or down the line until one of the lat-long lines aligns
with one of the lines on the rotating degree wheel. You could then read your
course directly off the wheel.Then you could rotate the wheel to match a
magnetic deviation scale and get your course.

And my explanation is far worse than the one that came with the plotter, but
it's really a useful unit!





"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> > The presence or absence of the compass rose on a VOR has no meaning.
> > It is purely at the discretion of the cartographer to omit it when he
> feels it
> > would make the chart too cluttered.
>
> All right, this makes sense to me. But as someone who is still a student,
I
> have to ask a question here. Let's say that I'm planning to fly along a
> specific VOR radial, and that this radial is not part of an airway. What
I
> normally do is draw a line on the chart, and then read the radial on this
> compass rose. But without the compass rose, how am I supposed to
determine
> the radial that I need to follow? Most of the VORs in this area have not
> been adjusted to keep pace with magnetic variation, and are therefore a
few
> degrees off from both both the true course and the magnetic course.
>
> I know that I can look up each VORs magnetic variation setting on
> airnav.com, but what if that wasn't available?
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message ...
> May I suggest you consider picking up a Jeppesen Sanderson PJ-1 Plotter.
> It's truly a handy tool!
>

Did you bother to read the post? The VOR declinations aren't necessarily the
magnetic variation for the area.

[Bill Denton]

Yes, I did read the post.

Actually, I said: "magnetic deviation", which is probably a meaningless term
but which was the only one that came to mind.

Jeppesen uses the term "variation", then relates it to "magnetic" in the
instructions.

Neither of which is important to the usability of the plotter.

The plotter has a rotating protractor which allows for direct reading of a
course, and it has the additional variation scale which can be used to input
course corrections and still allow direct reading of the course. You would
normally use this variation scale for magnetic variation.

But you don't have to! You could also use it to give a direct read simply if
you decided: "Hey, it's Tuesday. I think I'll fly five degrees west of the
actual course!"

Now, as I have mentioned on several occasions, I am still in the wannabe
category, anxiously awaiting the arrival of the Light Sport Pilot
certificate.

Sometimes I know or come across some information that might be useful to
some in this group. I then share that information. And if I am incorrect, I
am appreciative when someone corrects me and provides the correct
information.

You made the statement: "The VOR declinations aren't necessarily the
magnetic variation for the area." This was something I have not yet learned
about, so I didn't know it. And after your post, I still don't know it. But
that lack of knowledge doesn't change the validity or worth of the
information I posted.

So, if you feel compelled to post: "Nah, nah, nah, your wrong and I'm
right", knock yourself out. But please don't be surprised if you find your
posts treated with absolutely no respect...





"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
> > May I suggest you consider picking up a Jeppesen Sanderson PJ-1 Plotter.
> > It's truly a handy tool!
> >
>
> Did you bother to read the post? The VOR declinations aren't necessarily
the
> magnetic variation for the area.
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message ...
> You made the statement: "The VOR declinations aren't necessarily the
> magnetic variation for the area." This was something I have not yet learned
> about, so I didn't know it. And after your post, I still don't know it. But
> that lack of knowledge doesn't change the validity or worth of the
> information I posted.

Actually it does. If you understood what I was saying you'd understand that
your suggestion yields an inaccurate solution. The original poster specifically
said that the the VOR's in the area had not been realigned to magnetic north

> So, if you feel compelled to post: "Nah, nah, nah, your wrong and I'm
> right", knock yourself out. But please don't be surprised if you find your
> posts treated with absolutely no respect...

That wasn't my intent. I just couldn't understand why you would make a statement
that was clearly wrong given the posts you were responding to.

[Travis Marlatte]

Variation differences are VOR specific. Each VOR is adjusted individually or
ignored for years individually. Using a nearby VOR is not a solution.

There are only three possibilities. 1) Look up the variation for that
particular VOR in your always handy AF/D to determine a radial to fly; 2)
compute a magnetic heading from the VOR for the course you want to fly,
start flying it, and determine which radial you are on; or 3) use an airway
that is charted from that VOR to determine its variance.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:hcRTb.209885$I06.2322774@attbi_s01...
> There might be a better way, but I'd just approximate it by looking at the
> VOR's nearby. You won't be more than a few degrees off.
>
> Michael
>
> "Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > > The presence or absence of the compass rose on a VOR has no meaning.
> > > It is purely at the discretion of the cartographer to omit it when he
> > feels it
> > > would make the chart too cluttered.
> >
> > All right, this makes sense to me. But as someone who is still a
student,
> I
> > have to ask a question here. Let's say that I'm planning to fly along a
> > specific VOR radial, and that this radial is not part of an airway.
What
> I
> > normally do is draw a line on the chart, and then read the radial on
this
> > compass rose. But without the compass rose, how am I supposed to
> determine
> > the radial that I need to follow? Most of the VORs in this area have
not
> > been adjusted to keep pace with magnetic variation, and are therefore a
> few
> > degrees off from both both the true course and the magnetic course.
> >
> > I know that I can look up each VORs magnetic variation setting on
> > airnav.com, but what if that wasn't available?
> >
> >
>
>

[BTIZ]

Crap... all this discussion about trying to find out what radial to fly..

1) draw the dang line on the chart.. through your VOR if you must "fly the
radial"
2) plant your trusty plotter on the line and measure the TC heading to fly..
3) look at the magnetic variation lines and apply the correction
accordingly..
4) go fly...

enough already
BT

"Robert Easton" > wrote in message
...
> Does anybody know why on the Denver Terminal Area Chart, the Byers (BVR
> 113.5) vor/dme facility is charted without the compass ring that are on
most
> vortacs? It's the only one I've seen charted like this. Byers is located
> 33NM on the 090 radial of DVV (the Denver International Vortac).
>
> Thanks, Robert
>
>

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> Crap... all this discussion about trying to find out what radial to fly..
>
> 1) draw the dang line on the chart.. through your VOR if you must "fly the
> radial"
> 2) plant your trusty plotter on the line and measure the TC heading to
fly..
> 3) look at the magnetic variation lines and apply the correction
> accordingly..
> 4) go fly...

But, as I said in the original post, the VORs in this area have not been
adjusted for years now, and the declination used in them is not the same as
the magnetic variation lines on any current charts. Thus the radial setting
is not the same as the magnetic course, and is not the same as the true
course. They are somewhere in the middle.

[Michael 182]

Yeah you're right. Having said that, I'd look at a nearby VOR and estimate.
I'm not saying the FAA or a CFI would approve, but the reality is that
estimating would be plenty close enough.

Michael


"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Variation differences are VOR specific. Each VOR is adjusted individually
or
> ignored for years individually. Using a nearby VOR is not a solution.
>
> There are only three possibilities. 1) Look up the variation for that
> particular VOR in your always handy AF/D to determine a radial to fly; 2)
> compute a magnetic heading from the VOR for the course you want to fly,
> start flying it, and determine which radial you are on; or 3) use an
airway
> that is charted from that VOR to determine its variance.
> --
> -------------------------------
> Travis
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> news:hcRTb.209885$I06.2322774@attbi_s01...
> > There might be a better way, but I'd just approximate it by looking at
the
> > VOR's nearby. You won't be more than a few degrees off.
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > "Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> > > > The presence or absence of the compass rose on a VOR has no meaning.
> > > > It is purely at the discretion of the cartographer to omit it when
he
> > > feels it
> > > > would make the chart too cluttered.
> > >
> > > All right, this makes sense to me. But as someone who is still a
> student,
> > I
> > > have to ask a question here. Let's say that I'm planning to fly along
a
> > > specific VOR radial, and that this radial is not part of an airway.
> What
> > I
> > > normally do is draw a line on the chart, and then read the radial on
> this
> > > compass rose. But without the compass rose, how am I supposed to
> > determine
> > > the radial that I need to follow? Most of the VORs in this area have
> not
> > > been adjusted to keep pace with magnetic variation, and are therefore
a
> > few
> > > degrees off from both both the true course and the magnetic course.
> > >
> > > I know that I can look up each VORs magnetic variation setting on
> > > airnav.com, but what if that wasn't available?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Geoffrey Barnes wrote:
>
> But, as I said in the original post, the VORs in this area have not been
> adjusted for years now, and the declination used in them is not the same as
> the magnetic variation lines on any current charts.

And as I said in my post, it won't be off enough to matter.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

[BTIZ]

and for this chap.. do you honestly think that 2 or 3 degrees is going to
make a difference?? what ever happened to pilotage
BT

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> > Crap... all this discussion about trying to find out what radial to
fly..
> >
> > 1) draw the dang line on the chart.. through your VOR if you must "fly
the
> > radial"
> > 2) plant your trusty plotter on the line and measure the TC heading to
> fly..
> > 3) look at the magnetic variation lines and apply the correction
> > accordingly..
> > 4) go fly...
>
> But, as I said in the original post, the VORs in this area have not been
> adjusted for years now, and the declination used in them is not the same
as
> the magnetic variation lines on any current charts. Thus the radial
setting
> is not the same as the magnetic course, and is not the same as the true
> course. They are somewhere in the middle.
>
>

[BTIZ]

Thanks George...

after 30 years of flying.. TLAR navigation still works.. even with 20 yrs of
that in high speed military aircraft.. you refine it as you get closer...

BT

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Geoffrey Barnes wrote:
> >
> > But, as I said in the original post, the VORs in this area have not been
> > adjusted for years now, and the declination used in them is not the same
as
> > the magnetic variation lines on any current charts.
>
> And as I said in my post, it won't be off enough to matter.
>
> George Patterson
> Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is
curable
> either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the
circumstances
> under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but
more
> often to the physician than to the patient.

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> and for this chap.. do you honestly think that 2 or 3 degrees is going to
> make a difference?? what ever happened to pilotage

.... sigh...

I'm a student pilot, for crying out loud! I have no idea if 2 or 3 degress
will make a difference. Over a long distance, I suppose it could, but I
really don't have enough experience to know. I'm just trying to learn
something here. That's why I asked the question.

Little did I suspect that I would get jumped on for doing so. Just how on
earth is anyone supposed to learn if they get told off and insulted just for
asking a question? Jeez! The strange thing is that I always have enjoyed
reading the replies you make to other people, and I've even learned a few
things from you in doing so. I really expected better from you, mate. You
disappoint me.

I'm guessing from your reply that it really wouldn't make that much of a
difference. Surely you could have told me that without throwing in a few
destructive comments on my lack of pilotage skills. For the record, my
pilotage skills probably suck. I'm working on them, just like I'm working
on crosswind landingings, steep turns, and everything else. But just like
all my other skills, they probably suck. I already knew that, but thanks
ever so much for confirming it.

:: wanders off, mumbling something about the dismal future of general
aviation, and the uselessness of usenet ::

[Dennis O'Connor]

Geoffrey, cool it old chap...
OK, as a student lets talk about degrees... A pilotage trick is in knowing
that if you change the angle by one degree, lets say to the left, you will
be left of your desired track by 1 nm after you fly 60 nm.. (1 in 60 rule)
If it is 2 degrees then you will be off to the left by 2 nm...
And with shorter distances for a 2 degree change, you will be to the left by
1 nm in half the distance (30 miles) and left of track by a half nm in 15
miles... So if a B airspace is 30 nm across and you start out with a 2
degree error you will be off your desired track by one half mile when you
reach the center... Unless the vfr tunnel is very narow, wind drift will be
a bigger factor than heading error...

This rule comes from hundreds of years of ship navigation... Do a google on
the term "navigation 1 in 60 rule" and you should get hundreds of hits...
See, not that difficult to visualize once you have some numbers to go by...
denny
"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in > ... sigh...
>
> I'm a student pilot, for crying out loud! I have no idea if 2 or 3
degress
> will make a difference.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Geoffrey Barnes wrote:
>
> I have no idea if 2 or 3 degress will make a difference.

Did you manage to get out of high school? Do you remember any of the math they
were supposed to teach you? You can use simple math to determine that your deviation
in a 20 mile leg is about 1/4 mile for each degree of variation from the proper
heading.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> Did you manage to get out of high school? Do you remember any of the math
they
> were supposed to teach you? You can use simple math to determine that your
deviation
> in a 20 mile leg is about 1/4 mile for each degree of variation from the
proper
> heading.

Can you manage, just once in your miserable worthless life, to simply help a
person without insulting them?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Geoffrey Barnes wrote:
>
> Can you manage, just once in your miserable worthless life, to simply help a
> person without insulting them?

You think it's an insult to ask if you graduated high school? In any case, I gave
you two posts containing nice simple answers to your question, and all you can do
is whine that you're just a lowly student. Grow up and quit bitchin'.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

[Kevin Darling]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message et>...
> I know that I can look up each VORs magnetic variation setting on
> airnav.com, but what if that wasn't available?

As others have mentioned, you should always look up the VORs you're
using in the A/FD, which you should have with you as a student.

My first cross-country I planned without using the A/FD. My
instructor gently pointed out that, on the radial I had planned for,
this particular VOR was unusable. Oops!

After that, I went so far as to draw the range arcs around the VORs in
my neighborhood, using the info in the A/FD. I was shocked at how
some rather large arcs were blocked by mountains below certain flight
elevations.

Kev

[Ron Natalie]

"Kevin Darling" > wrote in message m...
> "Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message et>...
> > I know that I can look up each VORs magnetic variation setting on
> > airnav.com, but what if that wasn't available?
>
> As others have mentioned, you should always look up the VORs you're
> using in the A/FD, which you should have with you as a student.
>
You'll need the A/FD anyhow. Not all VOR's are usable in all directions/altitudes.
If you think just because it's on the chart that you're OK, you're going to be disappointed
sooner or later.

My first solo XC, the VOR at the destination airport for my first leg was out of service
(good thing I checked NOTAM's). This meant a dead reckoning leg for 2/3 of the
second leg (nowhere's land eastern Wyoming and Colorado, not even anything to use
for pilotage until I crossed a dry river perpendicular to my flight path that ran through
my destination). My instructor and I felt confident I could handle it.

[Coloboy26X]

hey if you do end up flying north of the Byers VOR make sure you and instructor
watch for the new 2000' antenna

it's pretty new and not on the charts yet

have fun learning!

[Kyler Laird]

(Coloboy26X) writes:

>hey if you do end up flying north of the Byers VOR make sure you and instructor
>watch for the new 2000' antenna

>it's pretty new and not on the charts yet

It's missing on the sectionals
https://aviationtoolbox.org/Members/kyler/tools/map_explorer?image=-363449%2C234146%2C50&scale=100&selected.x=571&selected.y=159
but it's on the TAC.
http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA_sectionals/current/Terminal-Area-Charts/Denver%20TAC%2061.jpg

--kyler

[Blanche]

The tower was not officially functional until after the deadline
for the sectionals. Nothing anyone in Colorado did (such as the
Colorado DOT/Aviation) could convince the FAA to put the tower
on the map last summer.

[Ron Natalie]

"Blanche" > wrote in message ...
> The tower was not officially functional until after the deadline
> for the sectionals. Nothing anyone in Colorado did (such as the
> Colorado DOT/Aviation) could convince the FAA to put the tower
> on the map last summer.
>
It took us over two chart cycles here to get a local airport turned blue
AFTER the tower was in operation. Getting NACO to do anything
proactive is probably hopeless. It's taken us two years to get the ADIZ
on the charts here. The gentleman from NACO who addressed a local
pilots meeting was either lying or ignorant (I'm tending towards the latter).
His excuse for not charting the ADIZ is that they couldn't put temporary
airspace on the chart (no precedent). This was doubly wrong for it's only
wishful thinking that the ADIZ is temporary (it has no expiration date) and
that there is PRECEDENT. We has special issues of the Washington
sectionals and terminal area charts back during the Atlanta olympics to
mark out the TFR's over several of the venues in the DC area used for
olympic preliminaries. If we can waste money issuing special charts
for soccer players, we certainly can fix the regular issue charts for airspace
that is deemed so vital to natioanal security in that it has to disrupt the
lives and livlihoods of aviations for a 100 mile radius.

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> As others have mentioned, you should always look up the VORs you're
> using in the A/FD, which you should have with you as a student.

This thread has been brutal for me, but I must confess that I'm still lost.
I sat down with a CFI and the A/FD this afternoon, and looked for the
section on VORs. I found lots of VOR check points and test facilities, but
I couldn't find anything that listed all the VORs and their declination
settings.

So fine, I stipulate that I never graduated from junior high school (let
along high school), that my parents were niether married nor (in my father's
case) mammals, that 2 or 3 degress won't make that much of a difference, and
that I am so stupid that I have no place in the vaunted intelligensia that
is the GA community in general and this newsgroup in particular. So now
that the flaming is hopefully out of the way for daring to ask the question,
where do I find these things? Surely it can't be that they list these
things in some editions of the AF/D, but not in the one that covers
Pennsylvania. Yet honestly, I couldn't find it and the CFI said that he'd
never even heard of such a thing.

By the way, I'm not training with this particular CFI, so you can't flame me
by saying that my CFI is a retard. He just happened to be around the FBO
this afternoon and I took the oppotunity to ask him about this. Informative
responses appreciated. Insulting ones anticipated.

[Bill Denton]

What you need to do is jump back into the A/FD with the understanding that
there is no list, per se.

VOR's and NDB's are interspersed with the airports, in alphabetical order by
name (not ID).

For example, here in Chicago we have a "Northbrook" VOR, ID = OBK. It is
listed between Newark (airport) and Olney-Noble (airport) in the Illinois
section. Magnetic Variation is included in the listing.

As part of the ILS system at Midway Airport, there is an NDB named KEDZI, ID
= MX. It is listed between Kankakee (airport) and Kewanee Muni in the
Illinois section.

Hope this helps...


"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
link.net...
> > As others have mentioned, you should always look up the VORs you're
> > using in the A/FD, which you should have with you as a student.
>
> This thread has been brutal for me, but I must confess that I'm still
lost.
> I sat down with a CFI and the A/FD this afternoon, and looked for the
> section on VORs. I found lots of VOR check points and test facilities,
but
> I couldn't find anything that listed all the VORs and their declination
> settings.
>
> So fine, I stipulate that I never graduated from junior high school (let
> along high school), that my parents were niether married nor (in my
father's
> case) mammals, that 2 or 3 degress won't make that much of a difference,
and
> that I am so stupid that I have no place in the vaunted intelligensia that
> is the GA community in general and this newsgroup in particular. So now
> that the flaming is hopefully out of the way for daring to ask the
question,
> where do I find these things? Surely it can't be that they list these
> things in some editions of the AF/D, but not in the one that covers
> Pennsylvania. Yet honestly, I couldn't find it and the CFI said that he'd
> never even heard of such a thing.
>
> By the way, I'm not training with this particular CFI, so you can't flame
me
> by saying that my CFI is a retard. He just happened to be around the FBO
> this afternoon and I took the oppotunity to ask him about this.
Informative
> responses appreciated. Insulting ones anticipated.
>
>

[Gary Drescher]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
link.net...
> > As others have mentioned, you should always look up the VORs you're
> > using in the A/FD, which you should have with you as a student.
>
> This thread has been brutal for me, but I must confess that I'm still
lost.
> I sat down with a CFI and the A/FD this afternoon, and looked for the
> section on VORs. I found lots of VOR check points and test facilities,
but
> I couldn't find anything that listed all the VORs and their declination
> settings.
>
> So fine, I stipulate that I never graduated from junior high school (let
> along high school), that my parents were niether married nor (in my
father's
> case) mammals, that 2 or 3 degress won't make that much of a difference,
and
> that I am so stupid that I have no place in the vaunted intelligensia that
> is the GA community in general and this newsgroup in particular.

Geoff, don't worry--that last sentence alone establishes that you're smarter
than most of us here, as well as wittier and much more socially adept. :-)

As for your question--as Bill just replied, the A/FD intersperses navaid
listings with the airport listings. In addition, an on-field navaid appears
in the associated airport listing, rather than having its own listing.

It's a good idea to read an A/FD almost cover to cover once, to find all the
good stuff therein. (It's not necessary to read all the airport listings,
but a broad sample is helpful; of the ones you choose, read each
exhaustively.)

--Gary

[Blanche]

The other thing you can do is take a sectional, identify all the
VORs then look them up in the AF/D. As already mentioned, the
VORs are interspersed with the airports. I still find the AF/Ds more
interesting to read than the FARs, altho the plot isn't as good.