Janus 2-seat glider as a club glider?

[K_Miller]

I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer.
If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.

[kiwiindenver]

On Monday, January 14, 2013 5:07:15 PM UTC-7, K_Miller wrote:
> I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer.
>
> If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.

http://www.glidingcanterbury.org.nz/ has a Janus Ce.

[Uncle Fuzzy[_2_]]

On Monday, January 14, 2013 4:07:15 PM UTC-8, K_Miller wrote:
> I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer. If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.

I am co-owner of a Janus C fixed gear. I can't comment on it's suitability as a club glider, but I have some experience rigging and flying one. I have only a Grob 103 to compare with, so any comments will be relative to that glider.
1. Rigs and derigs more easily than the Grob, but those big wings are pretty heavy! Rigging aids make quick work of attaching wings.
2. Slightly easier to fly well despite having long heavy wings.
3. Very wide pilot weight rangee
4. Very good performance.
5. Odd, almost spooky in a full rudder slip. Will happily remain in a full lock slip if you take your feet off the pedals. Takes significant force on the pedals to get the rudder off the stop once locked over.
6. Head room somewhat limited in the front seat, leg room quite limited in the back seat, and the (rear seat) pedals are not adjustable. Front pilot has no GOOD place to put water. Rear pilot has a LOT of space available for water and snacks.

[6PK]

On Monday, January 14, 2013 4:07:15 PM UTC-8, K_Miller wrote:
> I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer. If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.

The A model is a real hadful. VERY heavy on the ailrons yest sensetive on the full flying stab.I understand that the later models are much better.
Also low VNE
6PK

[T[_2_]]

It depends on the makeup of your club. A lot of primary students? A handful of glider for them.
A lot of rated pilots that want to learn or are qualified for high performance glass? A good ship.
Fixed gear as the Janus C is best in club environments.

T

[[email protected]]

We, the Soaring Club of Houston, are looking to expand beyond our current training program of the private license and into the cross country development arena. We are looking for a good 2 seat XC ship that the club XC coaches (5000+ hrs in XC) can fly with a newbie and yet keep up with the LS-4, ASW-20 single seaters, without the $120K expense of a Duo Discus.

Would appreciate all input from clubs who have a similar structure and how they solved the 2 seat XC capable ship problem.

Thanks,
Tony
TS1

[Alexander Swagemakers[_2_]]

In my old club we traded an ASK21 against a Janus CE to have better ship for XC and advanced training. In my opinion it worked out very well. The later Janus models are very similar to the Duo Discus at a far lower price. The Duo has an edge on best glide but the Janus will climb better and has similar performance in high speed glides. I flew a competition in the Janus against a fleet of DG1000 and Duo Discus and did not notice a big disadvantage.. The Janus handles water well and has better short landing capabilities than a Duo due to having flaps.

The Duo is more agile and has lighter aileron forces than the Janus, but if well maintained the Janus stick forces are not a problem. Ground handling and rigging is identical to the Duo except for the non-automatic control linkages. With a good trailer and the right technique and some practice rigging is easily done with 3 people and a wing stand.

In my opinion a Janus is suitable for club operation. The flap lever will add extra complexity over a non-flapped ship which may be problem for low time pilots. On the other hand you can fly the Janus with flaps in +8 from takeoff to landing. The Janus will spin nicely depending on flap position and cg but nothing particularly critical. Being a heavy modern two seater my also may also overburden some low time pilots especially when outlanding on short or difficult field – but that also counts for all other comparable gliders.

I only have experience with a well maintained Janus CE built shortly before the first Duos were introduced. As far as I know there were some considerable changes to the older 18m Janus models. The Janus CE is as far as I have experienced very similar to the Duo and definitely the better deal in terms of price.

[Uncle Fuzzy[_2_]]

On Monday, January 14, 2013 4:07:15 PM UTC-8, K_Miller wrote:
> I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer. If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.

It might be hard to find one available though, at least in the US. The FAA shows only 6 in the country, and ours (12FT)is definately not available!

[Kimmo Hytoenen]

We (www.hyik.fi) have Janus CT (with sustainer engine). We
also have ASK-21 for basic training, couple Astirs and couple LS
single seaters.

We have 200 hours requirement for Janus solo. It's partly
because of the engine. At the moment it's our only glider with
flaps.

The rear pedals are adjustable, but for me a little too close (i'm
186 cm tall). If I cross my legs while not flying from rear seat it's
OK.

Duo is more elegant to fly. On a good day Janus is very nice
glider to fly, but it is a bit heavy in circling. If you testfly one,
stay on neutral flaps until you have centered to the thermal,
then go to positive flaps if you like.

IMHO Janus prices are low. It is excellent for XC training. I got
introduced to XC flying on 300km flight with Janus. It was then
much easier to start XC flying on my own.



At 00:07 15 January 2013, K_Miller wrote:
>I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus
2-seat
>glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a
club
>ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that
was looking for a
>2-seat cross country trainer.
>If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your
opinion would be
>appreciated.
>
>

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:29:10 -0800, tsmolder wrote:

> We, the Soaring Club of Houston, are looking to expand beyond our
> current training program of the private license and into the cross
> country development arena. We are looking for a good 2 seat XC ship that
> the club XC coaches (5000+ hrs in XC) can fly with a newbie and yet keep
> up with the LS-4, ASW-20 single seaters, without the $120K expense of a
> Duo Discus.
>
My club (Cambridge GC in the UK) has a two seat fleet of 2 ASK21s, a G103
Twin Acro II and a Puchacz. During the summer we operate 24x7 with two
paid instructors who are both good, experienced XC pilots. Given suitable
weather and students with the hours and skills to benefit from the
experience, they regularly fly xc in the ASK 21s off the winch. Typical
flights would be 100 - 150km.

My first XC flight was as P2 in our G103 during the Cambridge Regionals
with probably our best pilots at the time as P1. We won the day, a 218 km
racing task, on handicap and I learnt a huge amount.

I also know a UK club where there's a privately owned Puchacz with a full
XC panel for both pilots.

Judging from what I've seen at CGC, almost any plastic two seater with
performance matching a G103 or better would be suitable for XC training.
However, IMO having at least one instructor with the required XC
experience and capability is more important than getting a better glider.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Eric Munk]

Depends on what you want to use it for. Ab initio: no way. Advanced
trainer: not ideal. As a cross-country trainer it is well suited. Flaps, so
a bit more complicated to fly than other sialplanes for some pilots.
Relatively high landing speed. Forget about the drag chute (it works about
50-50 chance). It is a pig in maintenance in a club environment, especially
above 3000 hours. I had one that was on its 3rd set of wing-fuse pins, 7th
set of stabilizer attachments and play on controls was a constant issue.
The ironwares on Schempp-Hirth are disappointingly low quality, alas.

[[email protected]]

Le jeudi 17 janvier 2013 08:35:59 UTC+1, Eric Munk a écrit*:
> Depends on what you want to use it for. Ab initio: no way.

Why? I've been with a club in Germany (also as instructor) which did ab-initio including first solo on a Janus B (later on on a Janus C).
No problem whatsoever.

[Dan Marotta]

Thanks for that.

It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
quality of the instruction.


> wrote in message
...
Le jeudi 17 janvier 2013 08:35:59 UTC+1, Eric Munk a écrit :
> Depends on what you want to use it for. Ab initio: no way.

Why? I've been with a club in Germany (also as instructor) which did
ab-initio including first solo on a Janus B (later on on a Janus C).
No problem whatsoever.

[Bill D]

The light dawns!

On Sunday, January 27, 2013 9:48:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Thanks for that.
>
>
>
> It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
>
> quality of the instruction.
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> Le jeudi 17 janvier 2013 08:35:59 UTC+1, Eric Munk a �crit :
>
> > Depends on what you want to use it for. Ab initio: no way.
>
>
>
> Why? I've been with a club in Germany (also as instructor) which did
>
> ab-initio including first solo on a Janus B (later on on a Janus C).
>
> No problem whatsoever.

[Dan Marotta]

Dream on... We're continually bombarded these days with messages that we
can't do this or that, or a particular feature of the car won't work while
in motion "For Your Safety". Thanks a lot, Ford... Nevermind that my wife
is a GPS fiend and the air bag sensor in the passenger seat says she's
there.

No, if it's got flaps it's "too difficult", or that's "too much to keep
track of". And don't get me started on tail wheels. Three trips around the
pattern in an L-19 with retractable skis and I was cut loose to have fun in
the Alaskan bush. But that was in the early 70s when men were still men...


"Bill D" > wrote in message
...
The light dawns!

On Sunday, January 27, 2013 9:48:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Thanks for that.
>
>
>
> It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
>
> quality of the instruction.
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> Le jeudi 17 janvier 2013 08:35:59 UTC+1, Eric Munk a �crit :
>
> > Depends on what you want to use it for. Ab initio: no way.
>
>
>
> Why? I've been with a club in Germany (also as instructor) which did
>
> ab-initio including first solo on a Janus B (later on on a Janus C).
>
> No problem whatsoever.

[Dave Nadler]

On Sunday, January 27, 2013 11:48:24 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
> quality of the instruction.

Yep.

Reminds me of a visit to a local glider club a couple decades
back, where I watched a Janus B make several extremely firm
arrival/bounce/vigorous arrival kinda landings. I inquired as
to who was the instructor in charge, and went and offered to
shoot a few landings with the guys who seemed to be having a
lot of trouble. After my kind offer was declined, someone
came and informed me that the instructor I spoke to had
been flying those, um, arrivals, oooops...

The club then disposed of the "too difficult" aircraft...

[Bill D]

On Monday, January 14, 2013 5:07:15 PM UTC-7, K_Miller wrote:
> I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer.
>
> If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.

[Bill D]

In 1959 my primary glider trainer was a war-surplus LK10A - probably the least suitable trainer I've ever flown. However, it did teach me to recognize impending spin departures before things got out of hand. The hand wringing about flaps is amusing. Every airplane trainer these days has flaps - and, of course, an engine to manage. Come to think of it, gliders are probably the only aircraft still manufactured without flaps.

On Sunday, January 27, 2013 6:24:32 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Dream on... We're continually bombarded these days with messages that we
>
> can't do this or that, or a particular feature of the car won't work while
>
> in motion "For Your Safety". Thanks a lot, Ford... Nevermind that my wife
>
> is a GPS fiend and the air bag sensor in the passenger seat says she's
>
> there.
>
>
>
> No, if it's got flaps it's "too difficult", or that's "too much to keep
>
> track of". And don't get me started on tail wheels. Three trips around the
>
> pattern in an L-19 with retractable skis and I was cut loose to have fun in
>
> the Alaskan bush. But that was in the early 70s when men were still men....
>
>
>
>
>
> "Bill D" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> The light dawns!
>
>
>
> On Sunday, January 27, 2013 9:48:24 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> > Thanks for that.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
>
> >
>
> > quality of the instruction.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > wrote in message
>
> >
>
> > ...
>
> >
>
> > Le jeudi 17 janvier 2013 08:35:59 UTC+1, Eric Munk a �crit :
>
> >
>
> > > Depends on what you want to use it for. Ab initio: no way.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Why? I've been with a club in Germany (also as instructor) which did
>
> >
>
> > ab-initio including first solo on a Janus B (later on on a Janus C).
>
> >
>
> > No problem whatsoever.

[Uncle Fuzzy[_2_]]

.... *The hand wringing about flaps is amusing. *Every airplane trainer
these days has flaps - and, of course, an engine to manage. *Come to
think of it, gliders are probably the only aircraft still manufactured
without flaps.
>
I've wondered about that too. I'd never flown a flapped ship until I
bought one. It didn't seem to be very complicated at the time, and
still doesn't.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

>> ... The hand wringing about flaps is amusing. Every airplane trainer
>> these days has flaps - and, of course, an engine to manage. Come to
>> think of it, gliders are probably the only aircraft still manufactured
>> without flaps.
>>
> I've wondered about that too. I'd never flown a flapped ship until I
> bought one. It didn't seem to be very complicated at the time, and
> still doesn't.
>

I'll "third that". And in gliders, most of the flap-based hand wringing
concerns *only* camber-changing flaps, not large-deflection landing flaps
(simply because there are very few of the latter, relative to the glider
population as a whole). As Alice might say, "Curioser and curioser."

I transitioned from a 1-26 to a large deflection landing flapped glider 1975,
with ~125 total hours (all glider), and zero instructional hours in a flapped
ship of any sort (unavailable to me then/there). Yeah, I did have theoretical
knowledge of flap-effects on a wing's lift & drag curves as functions of angle
of attack, and yeah, I did mentally prepare myself, but the actual initial
flight/landing was strictly a non-event in terms of "flap-use-trauma". In the
event, I liked large deflection landing flaps so much that I never again owned
a single seat glider without 'em.

Further evidence that how a person thinks, matters?

Bob W.

[Bill D]

On Monday, January 28, 2013 10:55:14 AM UTC-7, Bob Whelan wrote:
> >> ... The hand wringing about flaps is amusing. Every airplane trainer
>
> >> these days has flaps - and, of course, an engine to manage. Come to
>
> >> think of it, gliders are probably the only aircraft still manufactured
>
> >> without flaps.
>
> >>
>
> > I've wondered about that too. I'd never flown a flapped ship until I
>
> > bought one. It didn't seem to be very complicated at the time, and
>
> > still doesn't.
>
> >
>
>
>
> I'll "third that". And in gliders, most of the flap-based hand wringing
>
> concerns *only* camber-changing flaps, not large-deflection landing flaps
>
> (simply because there are very few of the latter, relative to the glider
>
> population as a whole). As Alice might say, "Curioser and curioser."
>
>
>
> I transitioned from a 1-26 to a large deflection landing flapped glider 1975,
>
> with ~125 total hours (all glider), and zero instructional hours in a flapped
>
> ship of any sort (unavailable to me then/there). Yeah, I did have theoretical
>
> knowledge of flap-effects on a wing's lift & drag curves as functions of angle
>
> of attack, and yeah, I did mentally prepare myself, but the actual initial
>
> flight/landing was strictly a non-event in terms of "flap-use-trauma". In the
>
> event, I liked large deflection landing flaps so much that I never again owned
>
> a single seat glider without 'em.
>
>
>
> Further evidence that how a person thinks, matters?
>
>
>
> Bob W.

The only guy I've ever flown with who just couldn't come to grips with flaps (IS28b2 Twin Lark) was a flight instructor whose entire flying career had been in 2-33's. He kept whining, "Can't we just set the flaps and not mess with them?" But then the elevator trim had him baffled and he wouldn't go near the 'retractable' gear handle.

[Ventus_a]

Gotta agree Dan. I have known 2 ladies that did ab-initio training to solo and beyond in a Janus A and both turned out fine pilots. The quality of instruction is certainly what seals the deal

At my club we have a Duo X and a Discus CS that some people struggle to fly well and it is down to the lack of top quality instruction and a culture among some of the newer and older pilots where they are more concerned with getting 'credentialed' than actually gaining real skill. Just getting a box ticked off in the training syllabus to some of them means "I know all I have to about that now" instead of "I'm judged competent at that and I can now work on getting more skilled at it"

:-) Colin

Thanks for that.

It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
quality of the instruction.


wrote in message
...
Le jeudi 17 janvier 2013 08:35:59 UTC+1, Eric Munk a écrit :
Depends on what you want to use it for. Ab initio: no way.

Why? I've been with a club in Germany (also as instructor) which did
ab-initio including first solo on a Janus B (later on on a Janus C).
No problem whatsoever.

[Ventus_a]

About the Janus tail chute. I had a share of a Janus A back in the 80's. The sum total of the instruction I had in the use of the tail chute was poor at best, i.e. "get the nose down when deploying the chute or you'll never get the speed back"

After some flying around higher up with the chute deployed (deliberately) before joining the pattern one day I found the following; at low speed it would still glide as well or better than a Blanik as long as you kept the speed back, it would still thermal ok with the same caveat, keep the speed low and that the chute risers at slow speed would stream one side of the rudder or the other meaning a hefty push was needed to initiate a turn at which point they would pop under to the other side.

Would have been nice if someone had been able to share that with me right from the start. I didn't find it necessary to land it fast either, a quick check of the airbrakes at the flare would suffice if it was sinking on too quickly. Best field landing over a 4'6" fence was under 100 yards with everything hanging out and the useless drum brake giving a small amount of assistance

In all the flying in the Janus I did, the chute got used on about 75% of the flights and the ONLY failure I ever experienced was when deploying the chute while dumping water. (Karl and Iris were visiting New Zealand at the time and I had her as a passenger on that flight while Karl was off flying a borrowed ASW 20)

Ah the good old days. . .
Colin

Depends on what you want to use it for. Ab initio: no way. Advanced
trainer: not ideal. As a cross-country trainer it is well suited. Flaps, so
a bit more complicated to fly than other sialplanes for some pilots.
Relatively high landing speed. Forget about the drag chute (it works about
50-50 chance). It is a pig in maintenance in a club environment, especially
above 3000 hours. I had one that was on its 3rd set of wing-fuse pins, 7th
set of stabilizer attachments and play on controls was a constant issue.
The ironwares on Schempp-Hirth are disappointingly low quality, alas.

[Ventus_a]

As Dan said elsewhere the quality of the instructors is the most important thing and if I had my time again I would still be very happy to have had XC training in any model Janus. Before I bought into a syndicate that owned a Janus A, I had one XC flight with a pilot who had won a few Nationals and done several world champs. What a lesson in how to fly!

Maybe I'm swayed by my good experiences but the Janus will do the job just fine

I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer.
If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, January 28, 2013 3:49:14 PM UTC-5, Ventus_a wrote:
> ...a culture... more concerned
> with getting 'credentialed' than actually gaining real skill...

I'd like to think that that position is a minority sub-culture within soaring.

I've noticed a few pilots with high level skills that like to gamble with very long odds, for example, by placing critical bets about rapidly changing weather.

I expect that there are a few pilots with good credentials, but not very good skills, who like to gamble with very long odds.

So where am I on this matrix? I guess that we all take risks, some more skillfully than others, and that we all stay in the sport until our luck runs out.

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 8:34:52 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote>
>
> I'd like to think that that position is a minority sub-culture within soaring.
>
>
>
> I've noticed a few pilots with high level skills that like to gamble with very long odds, for example, by placing critical bets about rapidly changing weather.
>
>
>
> I expect that there are a few pilots with good credentials, but not very good skills, who like to gamble with very long odds.
>
>
>
> So where am I on this matrix? I guess that we all take risks, some more skillfully than others, and that we all stay in the sport until our luck runs out.

Unfortunately I have to agree with Ventus_a. A lot depends on the club atmosphere and quality of instructors, but I see a lot of glider pilots who are perfectly happy staying at the skill level they acquired to pass their checkride, and making no attempt to progress any further. They are the "twirlybirds" that show up, fly a trainer for 1 hour on a booming day, then often leave before having to put all the club's gear away. Mention moving map software or FLARM to these guys, and all you get is a blank stare...

They don't think they are taking risks because they never stretch out - but in actuality they have stopped learning, and depending on how good their instruction was, may be the most dangerous pilots on the field!

But hey, as long as they pay their bills, it keeps the club going!

Kirk
66

[Eric Munk]

Wow. When I said 'no way' for use as ab-initio, I was not implying it
couldn't be done, but was in no way suitable as an ab initio trainer for
intensive club use compared to other gliders available. I'm sure
Schempp-Hirth never intended it to be anyway.

We do about 4000-5000 lesson flights every year, on ASK-21s mostly. Compare
their landing speed, easy handling, forgiveness, low complexity and
durability against a Janus C (or for that sake, a Duo Discus, etc). An
ASK-21 leaves a lot more room for error for students (which you will need
sooner or later, also during first solos when there's no instructor in the
back). It will get them soloed sooner than a more complex glider, and give
them extra room to further find their way by experience.

Now, if you have one or two students a year, I can understand that given
properly qualified and experienced instructors, a Janus C may be used
safely for ab initio. Buying one especially for ab initio only would be a
no-way, I would say.

[Eric Munk]

>It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
quality of the instruction.

We do about 4000-5000 instructional flights a year, mostly on ASK-21's,
about half of that is ab initio, and we like to think that our standard of
instruction is pretty good. Our experience is that however well you train
students, they sooner or later still need just that little extra room for
error while honing their skills, especially when flying early solos. An
ASK-21 will give that room. A Janus C is a lot less likely to do so. Then
there's also the maintenance point of view: Schempp-Hirth just does not
stand up to the punishment and wear Schleicher can take.

It's not a question of being able to use a Janus C for ab initio. Sure you
can. But does that mean I would want to? No. Not when there's so much
better available.

Just my two cents.

[Ventus_a]

Hi Eric

I understood that you weren't implying ab-initio training couldn't be done in a Janus.

Despite how my previous post may have been taken I wouldn't expect that a club would get good value for money from a Janus if they were to focus on ab-initio training in it. Yes I've known some people who have been trained successfully on the Janus but the intention of my posts was with regard to their use as an XC trainer. I think they are eminently suitable for that with the right instructors

In a club environment a more docile and forgiving machine like the K21 is a given for ab-initio as it also allows a wider range of instructor ability to be utilised

:-) Colin


Wow. When I said 'no way' for use as ab-initio, I was not implying it
couldn't be done, but was in no way suitable as an ab initio trainer for
intensive club use compared to other gliders available. I'm sure
Schempp-Hirth never intended it to be anyway.

We do about 4000-5000 lesson flights every year, on ASK-21s mostly. Compare
their landing speed, easy handling, forgiveness, low complexity and
durability against a Janus C (or for that sake, a Duo Discus, etc). An
ASK-21 leaves a lot more room for error for students (which you will need
sooner or later, also during first solos when there's no instructor in the
back). It will get them soloed sooner than a more complex glider, and give
them extra room to further find their way by experience.

Now, if you have one or two students a year, I can understand that given
properly qualified and experienced instructors, a Janus C may be used
safely for ab initio. Buying one especially for ab initio only would be a
no-way, I would say.

[[email protected]]

I have about 2oo hours in Janus A. I can't speak for other versions. All I can say is: It is perfectly safe, but it does not have pleasant handling qualities.

The ailerons are light and effective, the rudder heavy and takes an eternity and the elevator is super sensitive. Sometimes, the flying tail stalls while thermaling, making the nose pitch down. This can be alleviated by quickly relaxing back pressure and when you feel (you can feel it) the tail "unstalled", you then resume the stick position as before, otherwise you'll pick up speed quickly.

These characteristics are true at any flap setting. Thermals pretty well with positive flap and lands well too.

You just can not be ham fisted on the stick, it must be precise and quick, while horse kicking the rudder pedals.

Don't know why they installed the drogue shoot. With full flaps and spoilers it's pretty good already. I did land once on flaps 0. don't. It'll float forever.

Despite all this, I had a lot of fun with it.

[Eric Munk]

>It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
>quality of the instruction.

We do about 4000-5000 tuition flights a year, mostly on ASK-21s. About half
of them are ab initio. No matter how well we train people (and I'd like to
think our instructors'experience and skills are above average), we find
that there's always a time when early solo pilots (who also fly their first
solo's on the twoseaters) need just that extra safety margin. A margin that
a glider like the ASK-21 offers. And a Janus C doesn't. Keeps the student
pilot and the glider in one piece (in that order).

CAN you use a Janus C for ab initio. Sure. Would I like my club to do so?
No way. There's aircraft far better suited for that, from both a
maintenance and safety point of view. Just my two cents.

[Eric Munk]

hmmm, some duplicate posts here unfortunately. My apologies. Seems there's
a a two-day delay in publishing what I typed, hence the doubles...

At 13:11 31 January 2013, Eric Munk wrote:
>>It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
>>quality of the instruction.
>
>We do about 4000-5000 tuition flights a year, mostly on ASK-21s. About
half
>of them are ab initio. No matter how well we train people (and I'd like
to
>think our instructors'experience and skills are above average), we find
>that there's always a time when early solo pilots (who also fly their
first
>solo's on the twoseaters) need just that extra safety margin. A margin
that
>a glider like the ASK-21 offers. And a Janus C doesn't. Keeps the student
>pilot and the glider in one piece (in that order).
>
>CAN you use a Janus C for ab initio. Sure. Would I like my club to do so?
>No way. There's aircraft far better suited for that, from both a
>maintenance and safety point of view. Just my two cents.
>
>

[Uncle Fuzzy[_2_]]

On Friday, February 1, 2013 8:36:16 AM UTC-8, Eric Munk wrote:
> hmmm, some duplicate posts here unfortunately. My apologies. Seems there's
>
> a a two-day delay in publishing what I typed, hence the doubles...
>
>
>
> At 13:11 31 January 2013, Eric Munk wrote:
>
> >>It's not about the complexity of the aircraft, it's entirely about the
>
> >>quality of the instruction.
>
> >
>
> >We do about 4000-5000 tuition flights a year, mostly on ASK-21s. About
>
> half
>
> >of them are ab initio. No matter how well we train people (and I'd like
>
> to
>
> >think our instructors'experience and skills are above average), we find
>
> >that there's always a time when early solo pilots (who also fly their
>
> first
>
> >solo's on the twoseaters) need just that extra safety margin. A margin
>
> that
>
> >a glider like the ASK-21 offers. And a Janus C doesn't. Keeps the student
>
> >pilot and the glider in one piece (in that order).
>
> >
>
> >CAN you use a Janus C for ab initio. Sure. Would I like my club to do so?
>
> >No way. There's aircraft far better suited for that, from both a
>
> >maintenance and safety point of view. Just my two cents.
>
> >
>
> >

[Gavin Short[_2_]]

Yes, my German club purchased Janus C in 2011. Apart from a protracted time
getting it registered in Germany it was nicely overhauled by our club
before being put into service. It is used as a cross country trainer (the
other club 2 seaters are 2 K-13s and a K-21).

I flew for 4 hours with an instructor wanting to get his OLC and P1 cross
country time up. I used the flight as a regional acquaint and an
introduction to flying with flaps. Later in the year I got cleared solo on
the Janus C. It has 'long legs' compared to my Standard Cirrus but once
you compensate with a suitably sized circuit and approach I was able to get
the landings spot on. later in the season I flew my buddy's DG-200 17.6 and
so I am transitioned onto single seat with flaps.

Impressions:

- Pretty roomy in the back but after 4 hours getting out was pretty painful
with cramped legs & stiff knees (I never have that problems in the Std
Cirrus, even after 6+ hours).

- Flaps become intuitive pretty quickly. If you 'change down' the flap too
quickly when pulling up into a thermal your feel the drag and quickly learn
when to change the flap setting.

- Front seat seems a little cramped. My parachute kept catching on
something when closing the canopy - I will try with another parachute next
time.

- Poor man's Duo Discus. Good performance and handling though. The
ergonomics are compromised cf a modern 2 seaters. I am sure my club would
love to a have a Duo or DG1000/1001 but could get about 6 or 8 Janus C for
the price we paid for ours.

- Tail parachute not used (fitted but tagged out for normal use).

- Air brakes seem pretty effective.

- Undercarriage mechanism not repeated in the which led to the amusing
incident 'Youthful instructor in the front after 2.5 hours flying 'Gavin we
have a problem' me: I check a/c position against airspace - no problem.
Check height 7,500 feet, wings still attached,level flight, not stalling,
not spinning - all seems OK to me 'What is the problem? Instructor: 'The
undercarriage is still down'. me. 'Well if you pull it up and you don't
tell anyone then nobody will know!.

-Mylar strips/tape on wing tips, aileron mechanism seems a little
vulnerable to hangar rash/handling in a club environment.

The Janus C is proving very popular.


Gavin
Std Cirrus, G-SCNN, #173
LSV Viersen, Keiheuvel, Belgium

[[email protected]]

Well, it was in a club where we had about 10 ab-initio students per year, and the Janus was the least performing aircraft of the fleet. X-country flying was strongly encouraged, and there was no way to buy an ASK21 which you can use more or less for training only.

Over the years, we had one single incident to report (nose wheel push up during landing, would have happened with an ASK21 as well). I didn't see any difference in flight numbers to solo in resoect to other double seaters. And yes, students did use the flaps.

Over my career, I have been flying as an ab-initio instructor in the backseat of Ka7, ASK13, ASK21, SF34, Twin and Janus. Bottom line: The aircraft doesn't matter *at all*.

Le mercredi 30 janvier 2013 14:28:23 UTC+1, Eric Munk a écrit*:
> Wow. When I said 'no way' for use as ab-initio, I was not implying it
>
> couldn't be done, but was in no way suitable as an ab initio trainer for
>
> intensive club use compared to other gliders available. I'm sure
>
> Schempp-Hirth never intended it to be anyway.
>
>
>
> We do about 4000-5000 lesson flights every year, on ASK-21s mostly. Compare
>
> their landing speed, easy handling, forgiveness, low complexity and
>
> durability against a Janus C (or for that sake, a Duo Discus, etc). An
>
> ASK-21 leaves a lot more room for error for students (which you will need
>
> sooner or later, also during first solos when there's no instructor in the
>
> back). It will get them soloed sooner than a more complex glider, and give
>
> them extra room to further find their way by experience.
>
>
>
> Now, if you have one or two students a year, I can understand that given
>
> properly qualified and experienced instructors, a Janus C may be used
>
> safely for ab initio. Buying one especially for ab initio only would be a
>
> no-way, I would say.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:07:15 PM UTC+13, Keith wrote:
> I am interested in learning if other soaring clubs have a Janus 2-seat glider in their fleet, which model they have, its suitability as a club ship and whether they would recommend one to a club that was looking for a 2-seat cross country trainer.
>
> If you have other personal experience in the Janus, your opinion would be appreciated.

My club had a Janus A for 15 years until a couple of years ago. I have 83 flights and 72 hours in it, mostly taking friends&family for rides. The only twin I have more hours in is the DG1000 (81 hours). Other twins I've flown include 50 hours in Blanik, 20 in Grob twins, under 5 each in K21, K13, K7, Puchacz.

A lot of people in our club didn't like the Janus. I don't really understand why. Sure, it was more sensitive and less harmonized than the DG1000, but nothing that was a problem for a competent pilot, and the better performance below 50 knots and above 80 made up for it.

WIth the belly hook, sensitive elevator, and solidly mounted wheel I wouldn't want to teach takeoff/tow/landing in it if another two seater was available. Of course it would be possible. Put in in +6 flaps and leave it there and it's as easy to fly in the middle of the sky as a Grob, and with about the same performance. Use the flaps as intended and it'll match or beat a Duo or DG1000.

In our club we've now settled on a couple of DG1000s to do everything from rides/ab-initio to cross country.

If your club is big enough to have a mixed fleet then a Janus (any model) is excellent for putting solo-standard pilots into for cross country training. There are few two seaters with better performance and certainly not for less money.

They're also great for checking people out before they fly a flapped single seater.