Not required, by worthwhile, training

[son_of_flubber]

Last summer, I put my ear to the wind and I figured out that 'spin training' was worthwhile, but not required to obtain a private pilot glider rating.

What other training is worthwhile, but not required? What can I ask a qualified instructor to teach me after I obtain my glider rating?

For example, I'd like to learn how to recover from inverted flight, because rotor is common where I fly.

What else?

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
, son_of_flubber says...
>
> Last summer, I put my ear to the wind and I figured out that 'spin training' was worthwhile, but not required to obtain a private pilot glider rating.
>
> What other training is worthwhile, but not required? What can I ask a qualified instructor to teach me after I obtain my glider rating?
>
> For example, I'd like to learn how to recover from inverted flight, because rotor is common where I fly.
>
> What else?

How's about.... spend some time under the hood. And how about unusual
attitude recovery from under the hood.

It's fun, and one day, it might save yer butt.

--
Duncan.

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, January 19, 2013 7:34:04 PM UTC-5, Dave Doe wrote:

> How's about.... spend some time under the hood. And how about unusual
> attitude recovery from under the hood.

I'm guessing that you are suggesting some sort of IFR training. My only technique for IFR is "benign spiral", so yeah I'd like to get some basic IFR skills. Wet wave puts me at risk of flying into a cloud, or getting stuck up above the cloud deck.

How do I get IFR-for-glider-pilots training? Do I have to go to a powered flight school? Do I have to get a single engine rating before I can do IFR training? Seems like a power plane would be the efficient way to to this.

[Dan Marotta]

Getting thrown inverted is not very likely, even in rotor, due to the long
wings of the glider. I've flown a lot of wave and rotor and never felt out
of control. Flying a tow plane in rotor is a different story...

I think you'd be better served to ask your instructor for cross country
training so that you don't spend all your time after licensing hanging out
over the airport, becoming bored, and leaving the sport.

If you exercise sound judgment, it's unlikely you'll get caught above
coulds. I know... It *can* happen, but that's usually due to a series of
poor decisions which got you into that position in the first place.


"son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
...
> Last summer, I put my ear to the wind and I figured out that 'spin
> training' was worthwhile, but not required to obtain a private pilot
> glider rating.
>
> What other training is worthwhile, but not required? What can I ask a
> qualified instructor to teach me after I obtain my glider rating?
>
> For example, I'd like to learn how to recover from inverted flight,
> because rotor is common where I fly.
>
> What else?
>

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:13:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Getting thrown inverted is not very likely, even in rotor,

The appeal of aerobatic training is two-fold. First there is the mechanical mastery and better feel for attitude and control. Second is 'anti-panic-training'; not sure what the CFIGs call this, but the idea is to jump into stressful situations in a controlled way, so that when something stressful happens you keep a level head and solve the problem.

>I think you'd be better served to ask your instructor for cross country
training

XC is already on my list. I started this winter by working through Frank Paynter's book and flying tasks in Condor. (Just to clarify, I got my glider rating in the fall.)

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:13:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Getting thrown inverted is not very likely, even in rotor, due to the long
>
> wings of the glider. .... Flying a tow plane in rotor is a different story...

Have you ever been in a glider on tow and seen the tow plane go inverted?

[Mike the Strike]

On Saturday, January 19, 2013 6:32:59 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:13:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> > Getting thrown inverted is not very likely, even in rotor, due to the long
>

Unlikely perhaps, but not impossible. I got turned upside down in wave in South Africa flying a 19m Jantar-1 many years ago. My long wings didn't help - the glider pitched forward nose down and then flipped. I recovered with full dive brakes (and a very high pulse rate).

Mike

[Ramy]

Wow! I heard about gliders rolling inverted but never heard about gliders pitching inverted. This is something more common with tailless aircrafts such as hang gliders. Was it just a little pass 90 degrees down or you were looking up at the ground? I imagine recovering from this is much more dangerous than rolling inverted as more speed is building up. Good choice activating the spoilers.

Ramy

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
, son_of_flubber says...
>
> On Saturday, January 19, 2013 7:34:04 PM UTC-5, Dave Doe wrote:
>
> > How's about.... spend some time under the hood. And how about
> > unusual attitude recovery from under the hood.
>
> I'm guessing that you are suggesting some sort of IFR training. My
> only technique for IFR is "benign spiral", so yeah I'd like to get
> some basic IFR skills. Wet wave puts me at risk of flying into a
> cloud, or getting stuck up above the cloud deck.
>
> How do I get IFR-for-glider-pilots training? Do I have to go to a
> powered flight school? Do I have to get a single engine rating before
> I can do IFR training? Seems like a power plane would be the efficient
> way to to this.


Sorry, can't answer the how to go about it thing. However, I believe
you're best to do the training (IFR) in a glider and not a light a/c -
as that's what you fly! :) - should an excursion into cloud ever happen.
I'm sure you've seen the "178 seconds to live" thing - you don't wanna
be one of those. And I don't know a lot about gliding, being a light
a/c pilot only (involved w' a gliding club for years, but never been in
one, yet :( ) - however I believe gliders are pretty slippery things,
and over-speeding is far more sucseptable in a glider than a small
plane. So knowing when and how to recover correctly from a spiral dive
(or similar) is probably pretty damn important IMO - use of correct
recovery procedure, air-brakes, spin recovery, etc. Talk to your
instructor about it.

I'm sure such instruction is probably optional - but it's great fun and
IMO well worth knowing that you *can* do it - should it ever happen.

--
Duncan.

[Nick Kennedy]

At 07:01 20 January 2013, Ramy wrote:

During a checkout in Minden on a windy day I was told don't release Unless
the tug goes inverted or is pointing back at the glider. That was some
sage advice.
Nick
>Wow! I heard about gliders rolling inverted but never heard about gliders
>p=
>itching inverted. This is something more common with tailless aircrafts
>suc=
>h as hang gliders. Was it just a little pass 90 degrees down or you were
>lo=
>oking up at the ground? I imagine recovering from this is much more
>dangero=
>us than rolling inverted as more speed is building up. Good choice
>activati=
>ng the spoilers.=20
>
>Ramy
>

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

What else?

Benign spiral.
Cross-country aerotow (low tow in level tow and descent on tow.)
Extremely accurate, short field landing techniques, off-airport if feasible.

I teach these and more with every glider-rating checkride or flight review at Marfa.

Free checkrides: no exam fee / no glider rental fee / free room at Marfa, near the mountains of southwest Texas to March 31, 2013.
e-mail Burt for details: marfagliders at aol dott com

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

On Jan 19, 6:28*pm, son_of_flubber > wrote:
> Last summer, I put my ear to the wind and I figured out that 'spin training' was worthwhile, but not required to obtain a private pilot glider rating.
>
> What other training is worthwhile, but not required? *What can I ask a qualified instructor to teach me after I obtain my glider rating?
>
> For example, I'd like to learn how to recover from inverted flight, because rotor is common where I fly.
>
> What else?

Cross country.
The "sport" of soaring is flying cross country. The FAA exam is geared
to making sure you can go up and down safely, but is not geared to
developing actual skill at cross country flying.
The most important extra training you can get is two-seat cross
country flying. Most of us old timers figured it out on our own, map
in one hand and terror in our hearts. Go get some training, it will
get you over the hump in much less time and with fewer unfortuante
"adventures" on the way.
John Cochrane

[Joyce Acheson]

I am a believer in the value of having some regular training in
unusual attitudes in a glider. A basic aerobatic course including
recovery from inverted flight and recovery from a full spin are the
minimums.
I have been rolled inverted twice in a glider; once on tow thru rotor
and once by gusts running the White Mountains in California. Both
were very unsettling events and I am convinced that I would not have
survived the second event without having recieved training in basic
aerobatics.

We have had a basic aerobatic event at Williams Soaring three times.
The focus of the event is for every pilot to experience inverted
flight and to learn the basic "push and roll" recovery. It is very
impressive how many pilots are completely disoriented and cannot
respond in a rational manner. Typically they just freeze up and do
nothing untill the speeds and attitudes are unsafe or worse, they
initiate recovery by pulling thru a half loop which would assure an
overstress situation for both the aircraft and the pilot. Full spins,
not just incipient spins are a similar situation.

It is my opinion that current pilot training is so focused on keeping
the aircraft straight and level that pilots are very, very, very
uncomfortable in any previously unexperienced situation. When faced
with a highly unusual sight picture along with G forces that are new
the pilot is frozen with panic.

I have experienced it. I have observed it with many pilots. Recovery
from inverted flight and recovery from full spins should be standard
initial training and part of recurrency qualification.

Guy "DDS"

[kirk.stant]

As ofhers have suggested, acro training in a glider. Unless you have gyro instruments in the gliders you fly, instrument and under the hood training will be of little practical use, but it is fun.

Practice at landing at every kind of airfield. That means using the radio (while scratching down low - whats ATIS and tower freq?) to talk to a towered field and picking where to land (the big instrument runway is probably NOT the best place with an airliner inbound!).

Using radios correctly (hint: spend time reading the AIM). Flying a safe pattern at a strange field when you get there at 500' agl. What to do when a 50 knot gust front gets to the field when you are in the pattern (hint: land into the wind regardless of runway direction).

Think of possible emergencies and practice them with an instructor. Fly a no-rudder pattern to landing. Pull full spoilers on tow, release, then fly a safe pattern and land without closing them.

Kirk
66

Help maintain or fix a glider to understand how it works better.

[kirk.stant]

Parachute training.

Kirk
66

[Jim Crawford]

At 15:28 20 January 2013, Joyce Acheson wrote:
>I am a believer in the value of having some regular training in
>unusual attitudes in a glider. A basic aerobatic course including
>recovery from inverted flight and recovery from a full spin are the
>minimums.
>I have been rolled inverted twice in a glider; once on tow thru rotor
>and once by gusts running the White Mountains in California. Both
>were very unsettling events and I am convinced that I would not have
>survived the second event without having recieved training in basic
>aerobatics.
>
>We have had a basic aerobatic event at Williams Soaring three times.
>The focus of the event is for every pilot to experience inverted
>flight and to learn the basic "push and roll" recovery. It is very
>impressive how many pilots are completely disoriented and cannot
>respond in a rational manner. Typically they just freeze up and do
>nothing untill the speeds and attitudes are unsafe or worse, they
>initiate recovery by pulling thru a half loop which would assure an
>overstress situation for both the aircraft and the pilot. Full spins,
>not just incipient spins are a similar situation.
>
>It is my opinion that current pilot training is so focused on keeping
>the aircraft straight and level that pilots are very, very, very
>uncomfortable in any previously unexperienced situation. When faced
>with a highly unusual sight picture along with G forces that are new
>the pilot is frozen with panic.
>
>I have experienced it. I have observed it with many pilots. Recovery
>from inverted flight and recovery from full spins should be standard
>initial training and part of recurrency qualification.
>
>Guy "DDS"
>


I would strongly support doing some basic aerobatic and cloud flying
instruction. The principle behind both being that if you ever find yourself
inadvertently in an unusual attitude or entering cloud, then you've already
been there before and sorted it out so it loses a lot of the fear factor
and vastly improves competance. It is also a hell of a lot of fun!

I wonder about this 'benign spiral' recovery. I had never heard of this
before (UK pilot) and was briefed on it when flying at Minden. After a
first rate wave flight I set up the aircraft for a benign spiral in clear
air to try it out. I was particularly interested as I was flying an LS4,
identical to my own in thw UK. I could not find a spiral which did not
start to speed up and roll in. What gives?

Jim

[Dan Marotta]

"son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
...
> On Saturday, January 19, 2013 8:13:10 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Getting thrown inverted is not very likely, even in rotor, due to the
>> long
>>
>> wings of the glider. .... Flying a tow plane in rotor is a different
>> story...
>
> Have you ever been in a glider on tow and seen the tow plane go inverted?

Can't say that I have, but I've seen the glider tucked in on my right wing
while towing in the Wet Mountain Valley in Colorado. That was the day I
completed my Diamond Badge; I towed all day, dragging gliders through the
rotor. Nobody achieved the climb. I recall the only parts of my body
touching the aircraft were my right hand on the stick, my left hand on the
overhead, and the straps on my shoulders. That's when the glider was so far
out of position.

At the end of the day, I conned someone else to tow and I got off at about
11,500' MSL (runway elevation is 8,290'), did a split-s to drop about 500 ft
to notch the barograph, and climbed to FL290.

Here's a link to the airport, it was gravel back then...
http://silverwestairport.custercountygov.com/

Yes, aerobatic training is a hoot, and I didn't mean that you shouldn't
enjoy it. I just thought that XC was more important for the new glider
pilot.

[Dan Marotta]

"kirk.stant" > wrote in message
...
> Parachute training.
>
> Kirk
> 66

Parachute training - a HELL of a lot of fun! When I bought my ram air
'chute, I went to the jump club for 'one' training jump. I ended up taking
seven. I would have done more, but I get more for my money at the
gliderport.

Regarding instruments and aerobatics, I must admit that I received the best
training in the world 40 years ago in the US Air Force so I really can't
relate to this discussion other than to the statement about a map in one
hand and terror in my heart! I just reviewed my logbook and read my
comments on my first cross country flights. Not very far, but, to me, world
class! Fortunately, for me, there was someone willing to lead me around
increasingly challenging courses until I was ready to go it alone.

[son_of_flubber]

On Sunday, January 20, 2013 12:36:33 PM UTC-5, Jim Crawford wrote:

> I wonder about this 'benign spiral' recovery. I had never heard of this
> before (UK pilot) and was briefed on it when flying at Minden. After a
> first rate wave flight I set up the aircraft for a benign spiral in clear
> air to try it out. I was particularly interested as I was flying an LS4,
> identical to my own in thw UK. I could not find a spiral which did not
> start to speed up and roll in. What gives?

I understand that benign spiral only works on some aircraft under some weight and balance conditions. It works well for me on a Blanik L-23 with fully open spoilers. Insert classic 'your mileage will vary' disclaimer.

[Dan Marotta]

I tried the benign spiral years ago in my LS-6a and found it to be divergent
in pitch.


"son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
...
> On Sunday, January 20, 2013 12:36:33 PM UTC-5, Jim Crawford wrote:
>
>> I wonder about this 'benign spiral' recovery. I had never heard of this
>> before (UK pilot) and was briefed on it when flying at Minden. After a
>> first rate wave flight I set up the aircraft for a benign spiral in clear
>> air to try it out. I was particularly interested as I was flying an LS4,
>> identical to my own in thw UK. I could not find a spiral which did not
>> start to speed up and roll in. What gives?
>
> I understand that benign spiral only works on some aircraft under some
> weight and balance conditions. It works well for me on a Blanik L-23 with
> fully open spoilers. Insert classic 'your mileage will vary' disclaimer.

[Bart[_4_]]

On Jan 19, 4:44*pm, son_of_flubber > wrote:
> How do I get IFR-for-glider-pilots training? *Do I have to go to a powered flight school? *Do I have to get a single engine rating before I can do IFR training? *Seems like a power plane would be the efficient way to to this.

Do what I did and buy a lesson in a power plane. The instructor was
happy to let me fly under a hood. It did not matter that I was not a
power pilot.

Flying itself was not that big of a deal, by the way.

Bart