American Spirit / Falcon Owners

[[email protected]]

Does anyone on this forum currently own/fly and American Falcon or Spirit? I am keen to talk with you. Please send me an email off the forum ) or give me a call 250-792-4850.

Thanks,

Andrew Doepner

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Feb 9, 12:27*pm, wrote:
> Does anyone on this forum currently own/fly and American Falcon or Spirit? I am keen to talk with you. Please send me an email off the forum ) or give me a call 250-792-4850.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andrew Doepner

Andrew, do you have one of those ships or kits?

Thanks, Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:21:20 PM UTC-8, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> On Feb 9, 12:27*pm, wrote:
>
> > Does anyone on this forum currently own/fly and American Falcon or Spirit? I am keen to talk with you. Please send me an email off the forum ) or give me a call 250-792-4850.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks,
>
> >
>
> > Andrew Doepner
>
>
>
> Andrew, do you have one of those ships or kits?
>
>
>
> Thanks, Bob K.
>
> http://www.hpaircraft.com

Bob,

I do not own one. I am contemplating buying one and am looking for more information from current owners and former or current builders.

Andrew

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 05:09 11 February 2013, wrote:
>On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:21:20 PM UTC-8, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
>> On Feb 9, 12:27=A0pm, wrote:
>>=20
>> > Does anyone on this forum currently own/fly and American Falcon or
>Spir=
>it? I am keen to talk with you. Please send me an email off the forum
>(doep=
) or give me a call 250-792-4850.
>>=20
>> >
>>=20
>> > Thanks,
>>=20
>> >
>>=20
>> > Andrew Doepner
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Andrew, do you have one of those ships or kits?
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks, Bob K.
>>=20
>> http://www.hpaircraft.com
>
>Bob,=20
>
>I do not own one. I am contemplating buying one and am looking for more
>inf=
>ormation from current owners and former or current builders.
>
>Andrew

I appologise right from the strart if Iv'e got this wrong.
There was a thread on this forum about a mold taken off a crashed ventus
and used for a short production run,was that mixed up with the spirit?
>

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Feb 10, 9:09*pm, wrote:

> I do not own one. I am contemplating buying one and am looking
> for more information from current owners and former or current builders.

Andrew, there are a couple of things you need to know about the Spirit/
Falcon:

* Full disclosure: I offer a competing sailplane kit, so anything I
tell you should be automatically suspect. You have to do your homework
on this.

* Static tests of the as-originally-designed wing structure have
failed in static test at less than the design load limit; the wing
should have been good for at least 1.5 times the design limit. The
problem seems to have been shear failure of the wing root rib where
the transverse pin on the opposite wing spar plugs into it.

* Fixes for the root rib shear issue were designed and at least one
builder tested them. Make sure you know what the fixes are and how to
implement them.

* There are a number of ASC ships that are operational and get flown
regularly, so it is apparently possible to make a usable sailplane out
of one.

* I have satisfied myself that the Spirit and Falcon are relatively
direct copies of a crashed Ventus that was used to make the ASC molds.
However, I haven't gotten any of the remaining principals to go in
record to that effect.

* ASC founder Tor Jensen was killed in 2006 in a motorcycle accident
near Reed's Pinnacle in Yosemite, so he is not available to offer
advice.

* Ralph Luebke seems to be the go-to guy for the various fixes and
upgrades, I wouldn't consider buying a kit without talking with him
about it.

* Marty Eiler of California City flew most of the ASC ships and knew
Tor well; I also recommend you talk with him before buying any ASC kit
or ship.

Wandering off topic, I learned a lot about sailplane design and
development from watching a couple of ASC kits go together at a shop
in Fremont, California:

* Big floppy wing shells and fuselage shells are a real pain for the
builder to align and join, and it is a huge problem if they are
aligned wrong. That is something best done at the kit factory.

* Integrity of the basic structure is key. Static tests to at least
design limit load must be performed and documented.

* Detail design is important in and of itself.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 17:46 11 February 2013, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
>On Feb 10, 9:09=A0pm, wrote:
>
>> I do not own one. I am contemplating buying one and am looking
>> for more information from current owners and former or current
builders.
>
>Andrew, there are a couple of things you need to know about the Spirit/
>Falcon:
>
>* Full disclosure: I offer a competing sailplane kit, so anything I
>tell you should be automatically suspect. You have to do your homework
>on this.
>
>* Static tests of the as-originally-designed wing structure have
>failed in static test at less than the design load limit; the wing
>should have been good for at least 1.5 times the design limit. The
>problem seems to have been shear failure of the wing root rib where
>the transverse pin on the opposite wing spar plugs into it.
>
>* Fixes for the root rib shear issue were designed and at least one
>builder tested them. Make sure you know what the fixes are and how to
>implement them.
>
>* There are a number of ASC ships that are operational and get flown
>regularly, so it is apparently possible to make a usable sailplane out
>of one.
>
>* I have satisfied myself that the Spirit and Falcon are relatively
>direct copies of a crashed Ventus that was used to make the ASC molds.
>However, I haven't gotten any of the remaining principals to go in
>record to that effect.
>
>* ASC founder Tor Jensen was killed in 2006 in a motorcycle accident
>near Reed's Pinnacle in Yosemite, so he is not available to offer
>advice.
>
>* Ralph Luebke seems to be the go-to guy for the various fixes and
>upgrades, I wouldn't consider buying a kit without talking with him
>about it.
>
>* Marty Eiler of California City flew most of the ASC ships and knew
>Tor well; I also recommend you talk with him before buying any ASC kit
>or ship.
>
>Wandering off topic, I learned a lot about sailplane design and
>development from watching a couple of ASC kits go together at a shop
>in Fremont, California:
>
>* Big floppy wing shells and fuselage shells are a real pain for the
>builder to align and join, and it is a huge problem if they are
>aligned wrong. That is something best done at the kit factory.
>
>* Integrity of the basic structure is key. Static tests to at least
>design limit load must be performed and documented.
>
>* Detail design is important in and of itself.
>
>Thanks, Bob K.

Thank you Bob for laying it out so clearly,I was worried I was stirring the

waters with little knowledge
>

[JS]

Tom Riley built and is regularly found flying an exceptionally good example of the ASC Spirit. It is based in Tehachapi, CA.
Jim

[Wallace Berry[_2_]]

In article
>,
Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
talk with him before buying any ASC kit
> or ship.
>
> Wandering off topic, I learned a lot about sailplane design and
> development from watching a couple of ASC kits go together at a shop
> in Fremont, California:
>
> * Big floppy wing shells and fuselage shells are a real pain for the
> builder to align and join, and it is a huge problem if they are
> aligned wrong. That is something best done at the kit factory.
>



I visited that shop once. They had one ASC ship partially assembled and
a set of fuselage shells at that time. I do remember the pieces all
being very floppy. The guy working on them was not at all complementary
of the kit. It was supposed to go together without the need for jigs
(fat chance). He was especially unhappy with trying to close up the
trailing edge of the wings. Apparently, it was hard to get it aligned
and clamped shut before the resin would start to go off. I seem to
remember him saying something about needing 10 guys with little cups of
resin to close the wing.

That guy also told me that it was copied mostly from a Ventus, but that
the cockpit area of the fuselage was bit deeper, thus it would not quite
fit in a clamshell trailer set up for a Ventus. Seems like ASC had their
own trailer design.

WB

[Frank Whiteley]

On Monday, February 11, 2013 10:46:32 AM UTC-7, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
> On Feb 10, 9:09*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
> > I do not own one. I am contemplating buying one and am looking
>
> > for more information from current owners and former or current builders..
>
>
>
> Andrew, there are a couple of things you need to know about the Spirit/
>
> Falcon:
>
>
>
> * Full disclosure: I offer a competing sailplane kit, so anything I
>
> tell you should be automatically suspect. You have to do your homework
>
> on this.
>
>
>
> * Static tests of the as-originally-designed wing structure have
>
> failed in static test at less than the design load limit; the wing
>
> should have been good for at least 1.5 times the design limit. The
>
> problem seems to have been shear failure of the wing root rib where
>
> the transverse pin on the opposite wing spar plugs into it.
>
>
>
> * Fixes for the root rib shear issue were designed and at least one
>
> builder tested them. Make sure you know what the fixes are and how to
>
> implement them.
>
>
>
> * There are a number of ASC ships that are operational and get flown
>
> regularly, so it is apparently possible to make a usable sailplane out
>
> of one.
>
>
>
> * I have satisfied myself that the Spirit and Falcon are relatively
>
> direct copies of a crashed Ventus that was used to make the ASC molds.
>
> However, I haven't gotten any of the remaining principals to go in
>
> record to that effect.
>
>
>
> * ASC founder Tor Jensen was killed in 2006 in a motorcycle accident
>
> near Reed's Pinnacle in Yosemite, so he is not available to offer
>
> advice.
>
>
>
> * Ralph Luebke seems to be the go-to guy for the various fixes and
>
> upgrades, I wouldn't consider buying a kit without talking with him
>
> about it.
>
>
>
> * Marty Eiler of California City flew most of the ASC ships and knew
>
> Tor well; I also recommend you talk with him before buying any ASC kit
>
> or ship.
>
>
>
> Wandering off topic, I learned a lot about sailplane design and
>
> development from watching a couple of ASC kits go together at a shop
>
> in Fremont, California:
>
>
>
> * Big floppy wing shells and fuselage shells are a real pain for the
>
> builder to align and join, and it is a huge problem if they are
>
> aligned wrong. That is something best done at the kit factory.
>
>
>
> * Integrity of the basic structure is key. Static tests to at least
>
> design limit load must be performed and documented.
>
>
>
> * Detail design is important in and of itself.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Ralph cooked a wing root fix for post build which results in a bump. Contact Dr. Mark Maughmer at Penn State for a construction fix. At least one kit went there for his sailplane design program. Another kit is at Mississippi State. Contact the club. It was nearing completion last year. There was a 95% completion in AZ a couple of years ago. There is a 95% completed prototype in CA according to a recent message. There was one for sale in Boulder over a year ago.

AFAIK, none have failed in flight.

Frank Whiteley

[Paul Moggach]

All of the molds, and spare parts etc. for the Spirit now reside in
Toronto, Canada along with one flying example, and one kit, and are sitting
collecting dust currently.

[[email protected]]

Hi Bob,
Thank you for all the information in your post. I know its been a few years now, but I am investigating the possibility of buying a falcon kit.
I have tried to track down your recommended contacts. Ralph appears to have left us, and I am having trouble finding Marty Eiler.
Are you able to get a message(email /phone number) to him, or do you have his contact details?
Cheers
Marco

[[email protected]]

Hi Marco, I cannot help you any more than Google can.

--Bob K.

[Bob Kuykendall]

Marco, I think you need help that I cannot provide.
--Bob K.

[[email protected][_1_]]

I have flown both versions and was part of the crew that blew up a wing during static load testing. There are at least two fixes for the structural issue which Bob correctly.identified.

Handling qualities and performance are average and somewhat reminiscent of the Ventus that was used to create the design. There were large variations in the wing profile and smoothness on the ship I worked on. I was unable to get a decent contour on the wings despite many hours of filling and sanding. There was a depression on the upper skin that was too large to fill. Having wing skins lying around unsupported and bonding them outside of a mold is a poor strategy.

This is NOT a project I would undertake. Overhaul a Std Cirrus or similar or get one of Bob's kits, if available. i like building and working on aircraft. I did not enjoy working on the Spirit and the end product was highly unremarkable. All 1st/2nd gen. Factory glass ships are far better and easier to rig, fly, and maintain. And you do not have to fit a trailer from first principles- a challenging exercise unto itself.

Buying a glass ship from a random builder? Pass. I would require a static load test on all lifting surfaces prior to sale. And I would want to see it first-person.

Tom Riley in Tehachapi has an exceptional Spirit and trailer but is replacing it with an AS-W27. Perhaps a clue?

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 3:35:26 PM UTC+11, wrote:
> I have flown both versions and was part of the crew that blew up a wing during static load testing. There are at least two fixes for the structural issue which Bob correctly.identified.
>
> Handling qualities and performance are average and somewhat reminiscent of the Ventus that was used to create the design. There were large variations in the wing profile and smoothness on the ship I worked on. I was unable to get a decent contour on the wings despite many hours of filling and sanding. There was a depression on the upper skin that was too large to fill.. Having wing skins lying around unsupported and bonding them outside of a mold is a poor strategy.
>
> This is NOT a project I would undertake. Overhaul a Std Cirrus or similar or get one of Bob's kits, if available. i like building and working on aircraft. I did not enjoy working on the Spirit and the end product was highly unremarkable. All 1st/2nd gen. Factory glass ships are far better and easier to rig, fly, and maintain. And you do not have to fit a trailer from first principles- a challenging exercise unto itself.
>
> Buying a glass ship from a random builder? Pass. I would require a static load test on all lifting surfaces prior to sale. And I would want to see it first-person.
>
> Tom Riley in Tehachapi has an exceptional Spirit and trailer but is replacing it with an AS-W27. Perhaps a clue?

I guess it all comes down to $$. Do you have access to details for the fixes for the wing structural issues, and can you please connect me with any technical information for the falcon.

[[email protected]]

Hi Mark, I guess it all comes down to $$. Do you have access to (and can you share) details for the fixes for the wing structural issues, and can you please connect me with any technical information for the falcon.
I also believe someone produced a builders newsletter. Any copies laying around?

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, December 17, 2016 at 1:25:57 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Hi Mark, I guess it all comes down to $$. Do you have access to (and can you share) details for the fixes for the wing structural issues, and can you please connect me with any technical information for the falcon.
> I also believe someone produced a builders newsletter. Any copies laying around?

The bump solution was Ralph Luebke's and was a post build effort. Ralph passed away earlier this year. Dr. Mark Maughmer's sailplane design course had a kit donated and they came up with a solution, though I'm not sure that generally made available. That kit was used for design studies and if completed would never be flown due to liability concerns. RPI similarly designed a glider or two but those were only flown 2-3 times before becoming design studies or display aircraft for similar reasons. Mississippi State University had a kit donated. That kit was completed and was sold to one of the retiring faculty I believe and is still flying as far as I know. No idea what, if any, solution was used. IIRC, in a brief discussion with Mark the concept is to unitize the spar, root rib, and spar carry-through layups with rovings to provide additional strength and keep the external design shape.

Frank Whiteley

[[email protected][_1_]]

Frank is correct on the failure mode: root rib and spar caps separated from the skins.

I have no data on the repair mods but they held a second static test.

If you want a glider of that performance and money is an issue, get a second job or work more hours at your current job and either save the money until you have enough or take out a loan and pay it off as quickly as possible.. A partner will reduce the necessary capital by half.

If you want to build / work on airplanes, find a factory ship in need of refurbishment or work for an aircraft repair shop for minimum wage. Either way, you will get a world-class education in aircraft, will have a decent glider to fly, and it makes economic sense.


Building a sailplane from an ASC kit is false economy, even if someone gave you the kit! Difficult to envision that wxiating wing Skins have a reasonable shape given that the two I have intimate knowledge of were in bad shape direct from the factory and any unfinished kits have been lying about unsupported for a really long time. The odds of getting a decent airfoil arw not good.

Don't forget about the trailer! Fitting a trailer is major work and time and you will likely never have anything as good as a Cobra, Comet, or even an old Eberle the first time you build one.

You will pay yourself less (far less) than minimum wage building a kit. Even overhauling/refinishing a factory ship and trailer will pay you less than minimum wage.

I do not know what you have available for tools and a workspace but both cost $ and doing composites in the garage is very suboptimal.

There are decent deals on the market today and they are not selling (hint, hint) A Std Cirrus, AS-W15, Libelle, et al are fantastic ships and great values.