Freelance CFIs and plane rentals??

[Sam]

I posted a message awhile back about one of my relatives offering me
free flight instruction. He's a very experienced airline pilot and
has done a lot of CFI work in the past. He's still current on his CFI
rating, and the plan is to begin training in June (when I have more
money and he has more time).

Do you think there will be any problem with one of the local FBOs
renting us a plane for my training? Obviously they'll want to check
him out and see his history, but beyond that is there anything I need
to know? Obviously we should just make a couple of calls and see what
their policy is, but I just wanted to know if this was a common
situation or not first. TIA!

Sam

[Bob Gardner]

Situations vary between schools and insurance carriers, but the ones I am
familiar with require that airplanes covered by the FBO policy be flown by
instructors employed by the FBO. Airline pilot and experience don't count
as much as being an employee. But maybe your situation is different.

Bob Gardner

"Sam" > wrote in message
om...
> I posted a message awhile back about one of my relatives offering me
> free flight instruction. He's a very experienced airline pilot and
> has done a lot of CFI work in the past. He's still current on his CFI
> rating, and the plan is to begin training in June (when I have more
> money and he has more time).
>
> Do you think there will be any problem with one of the local FBOs
> renting us a plane for my training? Obviously they'll want to check
> him out and see his history, but beyond that is there anything I need
> to know? Obviously we should just make a couple of calls and see what
> their policy is, but I just wanted to know if this was a common
> situation or not first. TIA!
>
> Sam

[Richard Hertz]

If you can't find an FBO to rent the plane for this, you may be able to find
plane owners who rent planes. It is not uncommon.

You will probably have to beat the bushes a bit more to find them , but they
are out there.


"Sam" > wrote in message
om...
> I posted a message awhile back about one of my relatives offering me
> free flight instruction. He's a very experienced airline pilot and
> has done a lot of CFI work in the past. He's still current on his CFI
> rating, and the plan is to begin training in June (when I have more
> money and he has more time).
>
> Do you think there will be any problem with one of the local FBOs
> renting us a plane for my training? Obviously they'll want to check
> him out and see his history, but beyond that is there anything I need
> to know? Obviously we should just make a couple of calls and see what
> their policy is, but I just wanted to know if this was a common
> situation or not first. TIA!
>
> Sam

[C J Campbell]

The problem is usually one of insurance. The FBO's insurer insists that
instruction be given only by instructors employed by the FBO. The FBO may
also object to providing an airplane for an instructor that it perceives is
competing with its own business.

If you do find a private individual who is willing to rent his plane to you
for instruction, be sure to carry your own renter's insurance. The airplane
is required to have 100 hour inspections if used for rental.

Flying clubs often welcome free-lance instructors. You and your instructor
could consider joining such a club.

Actually buying an airplane and learning to fly in it can be cheaper than
renting. I have known people who did this and who ended up selling the plane
for more than they paid for it.

[BTIZ]

owners renting out their aircraft for instruction... may not have the "open
pilot policy" that allows for student solo operations..

BT

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> The problem is usually one of insurance. The FBO's insurer insists that
> instruction be given only by instructors employed by the FBO. The FBO may
> also object to providing an airplane for an instructor that it perceives
is
> competing with its own business.
>
> If you do find a private individual who is willing to rent his plane to
you
> for instruction, be sure to carry your own renter's insurance. The
airplane
> is required to have 100 hour inspections if used for rental.
>
> Flying clubs often welcome free-lance instructors. You and your instructor
> could consider joining such a club.
>
> Actually buying an airplane and learning to fly in it can be cheaper than
> renting. I have known people who did this and who ended up selling the
plane
> for more than they paid for it.
>
>

[Greg Esres]

<<The airplane is required to have 100 hour inspections if used for
rental.>>

Thought we had killed this myth a long time ago.

----------------------------------------<snip>-----------------------------------------
FAA Letter of Interpretation

May 3, 1984

In Reply Refer To: ACE-7
Mr. Perry Rackers
Jefferson City Flying Service
PO Box 330
Jefferson City, Missouri 65101

Dear Mr. Rackers:

This is in reply to your request of May 1, 1984, that we render an
opinion regarding the applicability of the 100-hour inspections
requirement of Section 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations
to rental aircraft.

Section 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides that,
except as noted in Section 91.169(c), a person may not operate an
aircraft carrying any person, other than a crewmember, for hire, and
may not give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that
person provides unless, within the previous 100 hours of time in
service, the aircraft has received either an annual or a 100-hour
inspection
..
If a person merely leases or rents an aircraft to another person and
does not provide the pilot, that aircraft is not required by Section
91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations to have a 100-hour
inspection. As noted above, the 100-hour inspection is required only
when the aircraft is carrying a person for hire, or when a person is
providing flight instruction for hire, in their own aircraft.

If there are any questions, please advise us.

Sincerely,
/s/
Joseph T. Brennan
Associate Regional Counsel.

[Dennis O'Connor]

The interesting thing about that Greg, is that is defies common sense by
changing a required safety inspection period based only upon whose name is
on the title - but then it is the FAA, right?
denny

"Greg Esres" > wrote in >
> Thought we had killed this myth a long time ago.
>
> ----------------------------------------<snip>----------------------------
-------------
> FAA Letter of Interpretation
>
> May 3, 1984
>
> In Reply Refer To: ACE-7
> Mr. Perry Rackers
> Jefferson City Flying Service
> PO Box 330
> Jefferson City, Missouri 65101
>
> Dear Mr. Rackers:
>
> This is in reply to your request of May 1, 1984, that we render an
> opinion regarding the applicability of the 100-hour inspections
> requirement of Section 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations
> to rental aircraft.
>
> Section 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations provides that,
> except as noted in Section 91.169(c), a person may not operate an
> aircraft carrying any person, other than a crewmember, for hire, and
> may not give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that
> person provides unless, within the previous 100 hours of time in
> service, the aircraft has received either an annual or a 100-hour
> inspection
> .
> If a person merely leases or rents an aircraft to another person and
> does not provide the pilot, that aircraft is not required by Section
> 91.169(b) of the Federal Aviation Regulations to have a 100-hour
> inspection. As noted above, the 100-hour inspection is required only
> when the aircraft is carrying a person for hire, or when a person is
> providing flight instruction for hire, in their own aircraft.
>
> If there are any questions, please advise us.
>
> Sincerely,
> /s/
> Joseph T. Brennan
> Associate Regional Counsel.
>
>

[Andrew Sarangan]

Your friend can rent the airplane from the FBO and give you dual
instruction without any restriction. But the problem comes when you
have to fly solo or fly solo cross countries. What you might want to
do is take the majority of your instruction with your friend, and then
switch to one of the FBO instructors and have them sign off your solo.
You have to do the same for the cross countries as well. This is a
hassle, but I really don't see how an FBO will allow a stranger to
sign off another stranger to take their airplanes on solo flights. If
your friend has done a lot of CFI work in the past he must have some
ideas on how to do this or know someone in the community who could
help.




(Sam) wrote in message >...
> I posted a message awhile back about one of my relatives offering me
> free flight instruction. He's a very experienced airline pilot and
> has done a lot of CFI work in the past. He's still current on his CFI
> rating, and the plan is to begin training in June (when I have more
> money and he has more time).
>
> Do you think there will be any problem with one of the local FBOs
> renting us a plane for my training? Obviously they'll want to check
> him out and see his history, but beyond that is there anything I need
> to know? Obviously we should just make a couple of calls and see what
> their policy is, but I just wanted to know if this was a common
> situation or not first. TIA!
>
> Sam

[C J Campbell]

Old myths never die.

[Robert M. Gary]

(Sam) wrote in message >...
> I posted a message awhile back about one of my relatives offering me
> free flight instruction. He's a very experienced airline pilot and
> has done a lot of CFI work in the past. He's still current on his CFI
> rating, and the plan is to begin training in June (when I have more
> money and he has more time).
>
> Do you think there will be any problem with one of the local FBOs
> renting us a plane for my training? Obviously they'll want to check
> him out and see his history, but beyond that is there anything I need
> to know? Obviously we should just make a couple of calls and see what
> their policy is, but I just wanted to know if this was a common
> situation or not first. TIA!

As far as I know, there are no FBOs in the U.S. that have CFI's as
employees. We are almost always "1099" not "W-2". I think this helps
divorse the liability of having employees.
Your question really varies by the FBO. There are many FBOs in
Sacramento that will not consider it unless you want to fly full time
for them. There are others that just want you to sign up as a member
of their club. In general the professional training type places are
not likely to permit this. I'm an independent CFI and know of several
places I can get planes to teach in and places that I can't. The
bottom line is, you need to call.

Also, make sure this guy is really commited to training you. Accepting
a student is a BIG responsibility and I don't believe you should take
it on unless you are willing to see the student all the way through.

-Robert, CFI

[Robert M. Gary]

"Richard Hertz" > wrote in message >...
> If you can't find an FBO to rent the plane for this, you may be able to find
> plane owners who rent planes. It is not uncommon.
>
> You will probably have to beat the bushes a bit more to find them , but they
> are out there.

But very, very expensive. Figure an extra $6000/year in insurance.

[Robert M. Gary]

(Andrew Sarangan) wrote in message >...
> Your friend can rent the airplane from the FBO and give you dual
> instruction without any restriction.

Very unlikely. I've never seen a club, FBO that didn't explicitly
state that only club approved CFIs can give instruction. Most also
prohibit flying from the right seat just to ensure you aren't giving
instruction.

[Robert M. Gary]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message >...
> If you do find a private individual who is willing to rent his plane to you
> for instruction, be sure to carry your own renter's insurance.

I doubt this will work. First of all the owner will have to add
insurance to allow the student to be training in his airplane. For my
plane it adds about $6000/year with a prohibitation on solo. Most
companies do not want to ensure commercial instruction insurance on
planes unless there are at least 3 airplanes on the policy.

I wish this myth of buying renters insurance would die. A renter's
policy ONLY covers situations where you can PROVE the renter was at
fault. The owner's policy will only cover those situations that the
policy allows for. I guarantee your policy only allows named insureds
to receive instruction.

So, if the "student" were flying the plane and the landing gear broke
on its own and totaled the plane, there would be NO insurance. The
student's renters' insurance would say, "Prove the student caused
this". The owners insurance would say "Prove a named insured or open
pilot was piloting" (almost all open pilot polices require at least a
private and sometimes an instrument rating).

My policy (AIG ) makes no distinction between who is PIC. It simply
says only a named insured can be "piloting" the plane. This means
there is no insurance if they think anyone else touched the controls.

-Robert

[John Galban]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message news:<oYf_b.30140$tM5.14018@fed1read04>...
> owners renting out their aircraft for instruction... may not have the "open
> pilot policy" that allows for student solo operations..
>

Private owners are not likely to have insurance that covers this at
all. Open pilot would apply to someone else flying your plane, but
does not generally extend to a rental arrangement. This would take
the plane out of the business/pleasure class of insurance and into the
commercial (read: big bucks) class.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> Old myths never die.

Neither do they just fade away.

[Richard Hertz]

Not sure what you mean here. Who pays for the insurance. From what I saw
the rates for private pilot rentals for lessons was very comparable to the
local FBOs. (a little lower actually)

I am not talking about a person who has his own plane and rents it out once
in a while - rather a person with one more who owns them primarily as a
business proposition. So how is the individual owner's insurance more than
the FBO and how is that going to make it more expensive?


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> "Richard Hertz" > wrote in message
>...
> > If you can't find an FBO to rent the plane for this, you may be able to
find
> > plane owners who rent planes. It is not uncommon.
> >
> > You will probably have to beat the bushes a bit more to find them , but
they
> > are out there.
>
> But very, very expensive. Figure an extra $6000/year in insurance.

[Richard Hertz]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> The problem is usually one of insurance. The FBO's insurer insists that
> instruction be given only by instructors employed by the FBO. The FBO may
> also object to providing an airplane for an instructor that it perceives
is
> competing with its own business.
>
> If you do find a private individual who is willing to rent his plane to
you
> for instruction, be sure to carry your own renter's insurance. The
airplane
> is required to have 100 hour inspections if used for rental.

Wrong.


>
> Flying clubs often welcome free-lance instructors. You and your instructor
> could consider joining such a club.
>
> Actually buying an airplane and learning to fly in it can be cheaper than
> renting. I have known people who did this and who ended up selling the
plane
> for more than they paid for it.

This is true only if you end up selling it. Buying an airplane is not a
cost-effective way to get flight time. Renting is cheaper.

[Richard Hertz]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
>...
> > If you do find a private individual who is willing to rent his plane to
you
> > for instruction, be sure to carry your own renter's insurance.
>
> I doubt this will work. First of all the owner will have to add
> insurance to allow the student to be training in his airplane. For my
> plane it adds about $6000/year with a prohibitation on solo. Most
> companies do not want to ensure commercial instruction insurance on
> planes unless there are at least 3 airplanes on the policy.

I don't know whether or not it will "work," but I know of students who rent
from a non-FBO. This person had a few C172s and rented them out at
competitive rates.

So how can FBOs afford it?

>
> I wish this myth of buying renters insurance would die. A renter's
> policy ONLY covers situations where you can PROVE the renter was at
> fault. The owner's policy will only cover those situations that the
> policy allows for. I guarantee your policy only allows named insureds
> to receive instruction.
>
> So, if the "student" were flying the plane and the landing gear broke
> on its own and totaled the plane, there would be NO insurance. The
> student's renters' insurance would say, "Prove the student caused
> this". The owners insurance would say "Prove a named insured or open
> pilot was piloting" (almost all open pilot polices require at least a
> private and sometimes an instrument rating).
>
> My policy (AIG ) makes no distinction between who is PIC. It simply
> says only a named insured can be "piloting" the plane. This means
> there is no insurance if they think anyone else touched the controls.
>

I can have an unnamed pilot - but I assume you mean not being instructed.

> -Robert

[Andrew Sarangan]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in message >...
> (Andrew Sarangan) wrote in message >...
> > Your friend can rent the airplane from the FBO and give you dual
> > instruction without any restriction.
>
> Very unlikely. I've never seen a club, FBO that didn't explicitly
> state that only club approved CFIs can give instruction. Most also
> prohibit flying from the right seat just to ensure you aren't giving
> instruction.

I've seen that too, but I don't see how they can make the distinction
between flight instruction and taking a passenger flying.

[C J Campbell]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> (Sam) wrote in message
>...
>
> As far as I know, there are no FBOs in the U.S. that have CFI's as
> employees. We are almost always "1099" not "W-2". I think this helps
> divorse the liability of having employees.

I am an employee of PAVCO as a CFI and get a W-2.

A lot of places that claim that their instructors are 'independent'
contractors are asking to get bitten by their state labor regulators. Some
states allow anyone who claims that they are a contractor to be treated as
one, but some others get downright nasty.

There is no liability protection in having contractors instead of employees.
It is a tax and labor issue. Employers have to pay employer taxes for their
employees and withhold income taxes and deposit them on a regular basis.
They have to pay their employees minimum wage. They have to pay their
employees for all work they do. Both states and the federal government take
a dim view of businesses that attempt to evade taxes and labor laws by
calling their employees 'independent' contractors.

If a CFI was really an independent contractor he could not be required to
perform any additional duties, could not be told how to do his job, could
not be required to use company planes, could not be forbidden to give flight
instruction on his own time or at other FBOs, etc. Some states require
anyone working as a contractor to have a license or otherwise register as a
business.

The first time a 'contractor' CFI gets hurt on the job and files a workman's
compensation claim (or even inadvertently admits to hospital personnel that
he was injured on the job) then the state is going to come looking for back
taxes, penalties, interest, and a real good reason why this CFI should not
be eligible for compensation at the employer's expense. A good argument can
be made that calling your instructors contractors actually increases your
liability exposure a great deal. Employees are easier to insure and much
easier to manage.

[Robert M. Gary]

"Richard Hertz" > wrote in message >...
> Not sure what you mean here. Who pays for the insurance. From what I saw
> the rates for private pilot rentals for lessons was very comparable to the
> local FBOs. (a little lower actually)
>
> I am not talking about a person who has his own plane and rents it out once
> in a while - rather a person with one more who owns them primarily as a
> business proposition. So how is the individual owner's insurance more than
> the FBO and how is that going to make it more expensive?

You just have the mimimum of 3 planes for new policies otherwise you
end up paying an unworkable amount for your insurance. If you have an
existing policy you can probably continue to renew it.

[Robert M. Gary]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message >...
> If a CFI was really an independent contractor he could not be required to
> perform any additional duties, could not be told how to do his job, could
> not be required to use company planes, could not be forbidden to give flight
> instruction on his own time or at other FBOs, etc. Some states require
> anyone working as a contractor to have a license or otherwise register as a
> business.

I'm pretty sure that isn't true. I work in the teleco industry and
about 25% of us (engineers) are contractors. You would never know the
difference just walking around the cubes. The contractors are still
told how to do their job just like employees. They are still required
to use the same equipment. They do not have to be ind. businesses (we
operate in almost every state and over 30 countries). They are still
forbidden from working for anyone else during their contract. The
company has 6 lawyers dedicated to preventing the state from
considering these guys as employees (there are some strange things
they do to maintain the difference).


-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

(Andrew Sarangan) wrote in message >...
> (Robert M. Gary) wrote in message >...
> > (Andrew Sarangan) wrote in message >...
> > > Your friend can rent the airplane from the FBO and give you dual
> > > instruction without any restriction.
> >
> > Very unlikely. I've never seen a club, FBO that didn't explicitly
> > state that only club approved CFIs can give instruction. Most also
> > prohibit flying from the right seat just to ensure you aren't giving
> > instruction.
>
> I've seen that too, but I don't see how they can make the distinction
> between flight instruction and taking a passenger flying.

Its just not good relations to violate a policy of the FBO just
because you don't think you'll be caught. As pilots, we still live in
a pretty small community and word of pilots (especially CFIs) gets
around pretty fast, even in large towns. We've all heard stories of
the crazy CFIs in the area. You don't want to be bundled up with those
guys.

[Robert M. Gary]

"Richard Hertz" > wrote in message >...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> >...
> I don't know whether or not it will "work," but I know of students who rent
> from a non-FBO. This person had a few C172s and rented them out at
> competitive rates.
>
> So how can FBOs afford it?


They have a minimum of 3 planes or they continue to renew an existing
policy.

> > My policy (AIG ) makes no distinction between who is PIC. It simply
> > says only a named insured can be "piloting" the plane. This means
> > there is no insurance if they think anyone else touched the controls.
> >
>
> I can have an unnamed pilot - but I assume you mean not being instructed.

No, just flying. You need to look at the "open warranty" clause in
your policy. It will state the requirements of the unnamed pilot. I
would be VERY surprised if it didn't say that the unnamed pilot didn't
have to at least hold a private. Usually they have to have close to
the same hours as the named pilots since that is what the policy price
is based on.

[Michael]

"C J Campbell" > wrote
> If a CFI was really an independent contractor he could not be required to
> perform any additional duties, could not be told how to do his job, could
> not be required to use company planes, could not be forbidden to give flight
> instruction on his own time or at other FBOs, etc.

I am an independent contractor at an FBO. I don't get a W2 or 1099.
I meet all the above tests. The FBO does not pay me - I am
responsible for finding my own students, doing my own billing, etc.
The student pays the FBO for the aircraft, and pays me for instruction
in a completely separate transaction. I set my own rates. All
instructors there work on the same basis. There are operations that
do it right.

I estimate these comprise less than 5% of all FBO's.

> The first time a 'contractor' CFI gets hurt on the job and files a workman's
> compensation claim ...

It doesn't even require that. All it really takes is one disgruntled
fired flight instructor filing for unemployment. If the state labor
board decides he doesn't meet the definition of independent contractor
(and most don't), watch out. The argument that he knew what the deal
was up front doesn't fly - the reason labor law exists in the first
place is that the employer is understood to have much more power in
the situation than the employee.

Personally, I would love to see these laws enforced against FBO's. It
would lead to a much better business climate.

Michael

[John Galban]

(Andrew Sarangan) wrote in message >...
> (Robert M. Gary) wrote in message >...
> > Very unlikely. I've never seen a club, FBO that didn't explicitly
> > state that only club approved CFIs can give instruction. Most also
> > prohibit flying from the right seat just to ensure you aren't giving
> > instruction.
>
> I've seen that too, but I don't see how they can make the distinction
> between flight instruction and taking a passenger flying.

It might be difficult before the fact, but this would certainly come
out in an accident investigation. That could put the instructor in
some very hot water (financially speaking).

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[John Galban]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message >...
>
> A lot of places that claim that their instructors are 'independent'
> contractors are asking to get bitten by their state labor regulators. Some
> states allow anyone who claims that they are a contractor to be treated as
> one, but some others get downright nasty.
>

State labor regulators? I'd be a lot more concerned about the IRS.
A few years ago they started cracking down on employers who claimed
their employees were independent contractors, in order to avoid
payroll taxes. Some FBOs that I know of treat their instructors as
true independent contractors, while others have gone the employee
route. It depends on how the FBO is run.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Ron Natalie]

"Richard Hertz" > wrote in message et...

> I am not talking about a person who has his own plane and rents it out once
> in a while - rather a person with one more who owns them primarily as a
> business proposition. So how is the individual owner's insurance more than
> the FBO and how is that going to make it more expensive?

In order to insure for flight instruction use (other than the owner/named insured)
generally triples the insurance cost. Doesn't make any difference if it only gets
rented once a week or in every two hour block all week long.

[Ron Natalie]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> If you do find a private individual who is willing to rent his plane to you
> for instruction, be sure to carry your own renter's insurance. The airplane
> is required to have 100 hour inspections if used for rental.

Incorrect. It does not need a 100 hour to be rented.

[Ron Natalie]

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message ...
> The interesting thing about that Greg, is that is defies common sense by
> changing a required safety inspection period based only upon whose name is
> on the title - but then it is the FAA, right?

It doesn't have anything to do with who's name on the title. The rule says when
carrying passengers for hire or when the instructor provides the aircraft. If the
plane is rented without pilot, then it is neither of the above. Where in the rule or
the FAA interp that was posted here did you determine that the name on the title
had anything to do with it.

[Ron Natalie]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message om...
> Your friend can rent the airplane from the FBO and give you dual
> instruction without any restriction.

Depends on the FBO. Believe me, our policy back when I was in
the flying club required that the only instruction be done by the club
instructors. A renter who just happened to be a CFI could not give
instruction even to ohter club members.

[Teacherjh]

>>
A renter who just happened to be a CFI could not give
instruction even to ohter club members.
<<

I presume "renter" means "club member who rents from the club"... then why
doesn't the club simply approve the CFI club member as an approved instructor?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Ron Natalie]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message ...
> >>
> A renter who just happened to be a CFI could not give
> instruction even to ohter club members.
> <<
>
> I presume "renter" means "club member who rents from the club"... then why
> doesn't the club simply approve the CFI club member as an approved instructor?
>
That option was available to the CFI-member, but some for whatever reason choose
not to do so.

[Michael]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote
> The
> company has 6 lawyers dedicated to preventing the state from
> considering these guys as employees (there are some strange things
> they do to maintain the difference).

And there is the key. If you have enough money to pay for good enough
lawyers, you can get away with anything (including murder). What FBO
has that kind of money?

Michael