On balance, are Moving Map PNAs better than Cambridge 302/303 styleLCD navigation?

[son_of_flubber]

Now that folks have experience with both approaches, are Moving Map PNAs in fact a big step forward?

Do the advantages of Moving Map PNAs outweigh the disadvantages?

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 11:25:54 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Now that folks have experience with both approaches, are Moving Map PNAs in fact a big step forward?
>
>
>
> Do the advantages of Moving Map PNAs outweigh the disadvantages?

Heck yes! I kind of look at it this way:

- Generation 1: LCD-based displays (including pointers, numerical values, stuff like that) give you basic situational awareness. I'm 10 miles from the turnpoint and it's "over there". A big step up from a paper map and trying to figure out if that lake there and that road there are really Smithsburg or maybe it's Jonesville.

- Generation 2: Initial moving maps added much more visual information, so you can quickly compare the view out the window to the view on the screen. This allows you to also anticipate terrain options (hey, there's a ridge over there) or other landing options (3 airports jsut off course to the right).

- Generation 3: The latest fully integrated devices mix situational awareness with tactical awareness for racing or serious XC. If you invest some time toward configuring to your liking and chose a device that maps to your style (some people like to fiddle with numbers and values; I like pictures), you can not only know where you are going but where to go to optimize distance on tasks and stuff like that.

The longer answer is much longer, but it's just heck yes with more details.

P3

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 5:25:54 PM UTC+2, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Now that folks have experience with both approaches, are Moving Map PNAs in fact a big step forward?
>
>
>
> Do the advantages of Moving Map PNAs outweigh the disadvantages?

Yes.

Setup correctly (and they DO take some setting up), a good PNA map will tell you at a glance where you are, which way you need to go, and what landing places are in range all around you. You simply cannot get all that data from a text display.

My setup has an SN10 for the important tactical data, focused on the task or destination ahead. My PNA (Oudie/SYM) gives me a much bigger overview of the task, ground track, landable fields, and some additional data that I can look at when time permits.

Kirk
66

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:29:40 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:

> My setup has an SN10 for the important tactical data, focused on the task or destination ahead. My PNA (Oudie/SYM) gives me a much bigger overview of the task, ground track, landable fields, and some additional data that I can look at when time permits.
>

So you're saying that you prefer to see tactical priority #1 information on SN10 and overview priority #2 info on PNA. Do you think that this is because you first develop the habits/skills of using the SN10 and you later added the PNA as a welcome enhancement, or is there some inherent advantage to splitting the information between the two devices?

Assuming you had your choice of "speed-to-fly" varios, would you then be happy putting all of the other information on the PNA? Or do you see a problem with putting too much information on the PNA and mixing tactical with overview information on the same device?

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:15:09 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

> - Generation 3: The latest fully integrated devices mix situational awareness with tactical awareness for racing or serious XC. If you invest some time toward configuring to your liking and chose a device that maps to your style (some people like to fiddle with numbers and values; I like pictures), you can not only know where you are going but where to go to optimize distance on tasks and stuff like that.

And this integration and readability may or may not be possible on a smallish barely bright enough screen depending on the acuity of your close vision and the design/customization of the graphics. Hence the popularity of the two device approach:

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:29:40 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:

> My setup has an SN10 for the important tactical data, focused on the task or destination ahead. My PNA (Oudie/SYM) gives me a much bigger overview of the task, ground track, landable fields, and some additional data that I can look at when time permits.
>

Or if your close vision is so-so, you can invest in something like ClearNav..

[JohnDeRosa]

> Do the advantages of Moving Map PNAs outweigh the disadvantages?

Absolutely without a doubt PNAs are the way to go. This is along the trajectory from compass+map, to bearing+distance (303), to not-so-bright displays (PDA and some PNAs), finally to the super bright PNAs.

BTW: What disadvantages do you speak of? There are some but I'm interested in your take.

- John

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 8:49:39 PM UTC+2, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> Assuming you had your choice of "speed-to-fly" varios, would you then be happy putting all of the other information on the PNA? Or do you see a problem with putting too much information on the PNA and mixing tactical with overview information on the same device?

Well, since I don't like "speed to fly" varios, it's kind of a moot point. Seriously, I thing the new crop of varios cram too much information into a small display, which is the exact opposite of what I want. I have the info I need in big numbers on my SN10 custom page, some of it repeated on my Oudie screens, and think we should be using more aural cues instead of more little bugs on varios. I prefer to pick a speed to fly and stick to it instead of following a speed command.

Now if I had an AOA indicator with nice bright LEDs, I wouldn't even need to look at the airspeed when slow (pattern, gaggling, etc). That would be really trick!

Kirk

[[email protected]]

>
> > Do the advantages of Moving Map PNAs outweigh the disadvantages?
>
>
>
> Heck yes! I kind of look at it this way:
>
>
>
> - Generation 1: LCD-based displays (including pointers, numerical values, stuff like that) give you basic situational awareness. I'm 10 miles from the turnpoint and it's "over there". A big step up from a paper map and trying to figure out if that lake there and that road there are really Smithsburg or maybe it's Jonesville.
>
>
>
> - Generation 2: Initial moving maps added much more visual information, so you can quickly compare the view out the window to the view on the screen. This allows you to also anticipate terrain options (hey, there's a ridge over there) or other landing options (3 airports jsut off course to the right).
>
>
>
> - Generation 3: The latest fully integrated devices mix situational awareness with tactical awareness for racing or serious XC. If you invest some time toward configuring to your liking and chose a device that maps to your style (some people like to fiddle with numbers and values; I like pictures), you can not only know where you are going but where to go to optimize distance on tasks and stuff like that.
>
>
>
> The longer answer is much longer, but it's just heck yes with more details.
>
>
>
> P3

Generation 4: Google glasses , with full voice input and output ('"Ok, glasses, final glide?... 300 over Mc 4 15 miles to go .... Average? .. 2 knots up..)

John Cochrane

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 3:18:43 PM UTC-4, JohnDeRosa wrote:

> BTW: What disadvantages do you speak of? There are some but I'm interested in your take.
>

I deliberately left the disadvantages unspecified in my question. I thought that they would be forthcoming in the discussion.

I'm inexperienced with PNAs, but wary. I know that I don't want to be that kid I saw yesterday riding down the sidewalk towards me on his bike, left hand on the handlebars, and right hand texting.

[[email protected]]

Yes, that's always the fear but for the most part they just become another
instrument you glance at while flying. The only intensive fiddling I've had
with them has involved trying to add waypoints to MAT tasks. I WILL note
that you have to learn to use them properly OUT OF THE PLANE, however.

[noel.wade]

One thing people don't understand: Part of setting up a PNA or other
moving-map display PROPERLY is setting it up so you don't _*need*_ to
stare at it to get important information. :-)

For example: With LK8000 on my PNA I set it up so landable points that
are within glide range (with a safety-margin) are highlighted big and
GREEN. Unreachable ones are marked in RED. At a glance I can see if
there are big green dots on my display - meaning that I have options
if things start to go to hell. I don't have to scroll through lists or
have my brain interpret numbers and letters (which take a certain
amount of processing and interpretation by the brain). I just know
that "Green Dots" = Landout Options. And at a glance I can also see
roughly in what direction they are and how far away they are, relative
to me.

Now, secondarily I have LK8000 display my arrival altitude next to
each green dot (again, with a safety margin built-in). IF I have time,
I can look at that number and decide how easily I can make it to that
point. And if the cockpit workload is low enough, I can glance at that
number once every 30-60 seconds over a 3-5 minute period and easily
detect if the number is growing or shrinking. If its growing, I'm
"beating" my glide and can have confidence I'll make it there. If the
number is shrinking, then I know I'm not likely to make it, given the
way my glide is trending (badly). However, all of these mental
gymnastics are secondary tasks. I only need to glance at the screen to
get "the big picture" and the overall gist of things.

There are lots more examples I could give like this (such as a bright
PNA with good terrain coloration helping you visualize whether you're
flying into rising or lowering terrain, whether you have to cross
mountains or valleys in your path, etc); but hopefully the example
above helps get the point across.

--Noel

[Roel Baardman]

> Now if I had an AOA indicator with nice bright LEDs, I wouldn't even
> need to look at the airspeed when slow (pattern, gaggling, etc).
> That would be really trick!

Use a sidestring?

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:40:19 PM UTC+2, Roel Baardman wrote:
> > Now if I had an AOA indicator with nice bright LEDs, I wouldn't even
>
> > need to look at the airspeed when slow (pattern, gaggling, etc).
>
> > That would be really trick!
>
>
>
> Use a sidestring?

Tried it. Too sensitive to yaw, and not in the right place to see easily. And they get caught in the canopy when you close it...

66

[Dan Marotta]

All good advice, though I question the need for terrain to be displayed vs.
simply looking outside. Then, again, I fly where the visibility is rarely
*less* than 100 miles. Perhaps, in other locations, a terrain display
helps.

As to the kid texting while riding the bike - I hope he ran into a bus.


"noel.wade" > wrote in message
...
> One thing people don't understand: Part of setting up a PNA or other
> moving-map display PROPERLY is setting it up so you don't _*need*_ to
> stare at it to get important information. :-)
>
> For example: With LK8000 on my PNA I set it up so landable points that
> are within glide range (with a safety-margin) are highlighted big and
> GREEN. Unreachable ones are marked in RED. At a glance I can see if
> there are big green dots on my display - meaning that I have options
> if things start to go to hell. I don't have to scroll through lists or
> have my brain interpret numbers and letters (which take a certain
> amount of processing and interpretation by the brain). I just know
> that "Green Dots" = Landout Options. And at a glance I can also see
> roughly in what direction they are and how far away they are, relative
> to me.
>
> Now, secondarily I have LK8000 display my arrival altitude next to
> each green dot (again, with a safety margin built-in). IF I have time,
> I can look at that number and decide how easily I can make it to that
> point. And if the cockpit workload is low enough, I can glance at that
> number once every 30-60 seconds over a 3-5 minute period and easily
> detect if the number is growing or shrinking. If its growing, I'm
> "beating" my glide and can have confidence I'll make it there. If the
> number is shrinking, then I know I'm not likely to make it, given the
> way my glide is trending (badly). However, all of these mental
> gymnastics are secondary tasks. I only need to glance at the screen to
> get "the big picture" and the overall gist of things.
>
> There are lots more examples I could give like this (such as a bright
> PNA with good terrain coloration helping you visualize whether you're
> flying into rising or lowering terrain, whether you have to cross
> mountains or valleys in your path, etc); but hopefully the example
> above helps get the point across.
>
> --Noel
>

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:50:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> All good advice, though I question the need for terrain to be displayed vs.
>
> simply looking outside. Then, again, I fly where the visibility is rarely
>
> *less* than 100 miles. Perhaps, in other locations, a terrain display
>
> helps.
>

Certainly in Appalachian ridge country, terrain maps are hugely useful. Knowing which of the 3 low ridges ahead is the one with the valley in front or which one has the big gap in it is very helpful for newbies to an area. More importantly, my ClearNav gives a very easy to use visual indication of whether I'm going to clear a ridge when making transitions.

P3

[Morgan[_2_]]

I use both. L-Nave/GPS Nav combo. The Dell Streak with XCSoar is fantastic for situational awareness and I rarely fiddle with it in flight since I can see what I can reach. Maybe zoom in or out. Usually set MC2 and forget it although I have the polar degraded to about 32:1 for my Duo to pad my margins. As mentioned before, it is the trend of things I pay most attention to. Flying out west where we have lots of airports and landable fields, the terrain and other details aren't really that important.

I use the GPS-Nav for more point specific items. Point it at useful waypoint on course for relaying position info to fellow flyers so that we can get a sense of where we are relative to each other. I also like the L-Nav for final glide since it is right there in the panel front and center and has air-data that XCSoar doesn't so it knows about changes to the winds.

I could get by just fine with either. Air data into XCSoar or some other moving map would be my preference if I had to pick just one. The benefits of the added awareness without fiddling are quite apparent.

For contest flying in turn area or MAT tasks XCSoar is great. Just fly over the turnpoint and it adds it to your list. Arm a turn area as soon as you want to make your turn and move on to the next waypoint.

Backup devices are sure nice to have in the plane though. The tablets are good, but way more crash prone than an SN-10 or L-Nav it seems.

Morgan

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 10:07:36 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
> On Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:50:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> > All good advice, though I question the need for terrain to be displayed vs.
>
> >
>
> > simply looking outside. Then, again, I fly where the visibility is rarely
>
> >
>
> > *less* than 100 miles. Perhaps, in other locations, a terrain display
>
> >
>
> > helps.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Certainly in Appalachian ridge country, terrain maps are hugely useful. Knowing which of the 3 low ridges ahead is the one with the valley in front or which one has the big gap in it is very helpful for newbies to an area.. More importantly, my ClearNav gives a very easy to use visual indication of whether I'm going to clear a ridge when making transitions.
>
>
>
> P3

[noel.wade]

On May 23, 10:07*am, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:50:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > All good advice, though I question the need for terrain to be displayed vs.
> > simply looking outside. *Then, again, I fly where the visibility is rarely
> > *less* than 100 miles. *Perhaps, in other locations, a terrain display
> > helps.
>
> Certainly in Appalachian ridge country, *terrain maps are hugely useful.. *Knowing which of the 3 low ridges ahead is the one with the valley in
> front or which one has the big gap in it is very helpful for newbies to an area.

Additionally, its useful for orienting yourself in terrain or
territory that's confusing or unfamiliar. Major road intersections
and especially Lake shorelines are very distinctive and the human eye
is good at interpreting them even when approaching them from an odd
angle. Mountains, random fields, and small-towns can be
indistinguishable or easily confused for other similar items when
approached from an unfamiliar direction or under certain lighting
conditions. Displaying these major land features on a moving map helps
orient you, relative to the terrain, your desired bearing, and
possible landouts.

Here's a good example: You're 10 miles from a lake, flying towards it
and worried about getting low. You know there is a landout field you
can use near the lake-shore, if things don't improve. You'll want to
ask yourself: Is that known-good-landout-field on the LEFT side of the
lake, or the RIGHT side of the lake? You don't want to fly to the
wrong side and then try to cross the water at low altitude! With an
LCD display, you would probably have to go "heads down" and scroll
through several screens to look at possible landouts nearby and then
do the mental gymnastics based on a bearing to the waypoint, to
determine if the landout field is on the left side of the lake or the
right side of the lake - relative to your current position. With a
moving map you glance at the screen and can SEE the landout field
highlighted, and where it is relative to your positon and the lake.
You can compare what you see over the nose of your glider with the
map, and instantly understand where it is and what you have to do to
fly towards it.

--Noel

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:40:41 PM UTC-4, Morgan wrote:
> I use both. L-Nave/GPS Nav combo. The Dell Streak with XCSoar is fantastic for situational awareness and I rarely fiddle with it in flight since I can see what I can reach. Maybe zoom in or out. Usually set MC2 and forget it although I have the polar degraded to about 32:1 for my Duo to pad my margins. As mentioned before, it is the trend of things I pay most attention to. Flying out west where we have lots of airports and landable fields, the terrain and other details aren't really that important.
>
Another important point BTW. The newer systems are getting better and better at information visualization. I fly the same way with my ClearNav. Once I enter the task and head out on course, I almost never push any buttons or spend time staring at the screen. A quick glance confirms where I am, where I'm heading, what I can reach, and the trends of glide performance, etc.

A lot of the old-time pundits who haven't flown with these devices lament the "increase in heads-down time." For me, it's just the opposite. I spend way less time in the cockpit than I did in the days of paper maps or first generation Garmin 12 Navigation.

[Dan Marotta]

My Dell Streak receives air data via Bluetooth from my CAI-302.


"Morgan" > wrote in message
...
I use both. L-Nave/GPS Nav combo. The Dell Streak with XCSoar is fantastic
for situational awareness and I rarely fiddle with it in flight since I can
see what I can reach. Maybe zoom in or out. Usually set MC2 and forget it
although I have the polar degraded to about 32:1 for my Duo to pad my
margins. As mentioned before, it is the trend of things I pay most
attention to. Flying out west where we have lots of airports and landable
fields, the terrain and other details aren't really that important.

I use the GPS-Nav for more point specific items. Point it at useful
waypoint on course for relaying position info to fellow flyers so that we
can get a sense of where we are relative to each other. I also like the
L-Nav for final glide since it is right there in the panel front and center
and has air-data that XCSoar doesn't so it knows about changes to the winds.

I could get by just fine with either. Air data into XCSoar or some other
moving map would be my preference if I had to pick just one. The benefits
of the added awareness without fiddling are quite apparent.

For contest flying in turn area or MAT tasks XCSoar is great. Just fly over
the turnpoint and it adds it to your list. Arm a turn area as soon as you
want to make your turn and move on to the next waypoint.

Backup devices are sure nice to have in the plane though. The tablets are
good, but way more crash prone than an SN-10 or L-Nav it seems.

Morgan

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 10:07:36 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
> On Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:50:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> > All good advice, though I question the need for terrain to be displayed
> > vs.
>
> >
>
> > simply looking outside. Then, again, I fly where the visibility is
> > rarely
>
> >
>
> > *less* than 100 miles. Perhaps, in other locations, a terrain display
>
> >
>
> > helps.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Certainly in Appalachian ridge country, terrain maps are hugely useful.
> Knowing which of the 3 low ridges ahead is the one with the valley in
> front or which one has the big gap in it is very helpful for newbies to an
> area. More importantly, my ClearNav gives a very easy to use visual
> indication of whether I'm going to clear a ridge when making transitions.
>
>
>
> P3

[cernauta]

I'd like to know what BT interface/adapter you are using,
or, if you had experience with different adapters, then could you
recommend the best between them...

thank you very much

aldo cernezzi
www.voloavela.it



On Thu, 23 May 2013 17:45:22 -0600, "Dan Marotta"
> wrote:

>My Dell Streak receives air data via Bluetooth from my CAI-302.

[Morgan[_2_]]

I have used the SoarTronics BT Adapter to connect my Streak to my Powerflarm. It worked great. I suspect you could use it to connect to a 302 as well, though I can't remember for sure. It has a couple of standard 8ping network cable type connectors. I know people who have used the k6-BT for 302 connection though.

Unfortunately the XCSoar team hasn't had anyone jump in and write the appropriate drivers for the LNAV to get data from it. It is apparently different than the output of the 302. I don't know if it can provide air data or not, but it's not really the end of the world. It's pretty simple to set the wind manually if needed in XCSoar and I'll occasionally do that when I know I've got winds to deal with that XCSoar doesn't know about. Convergence flying is often a case where it can't discern winds or the winds it knows about will not match a final glide away from the convergence.

On Saturday, May 25, 2013 7:35:36 AM UTC-7, cernauta wrote:
> I'd like to know what BT interface/adapter you are using,
>
> or, if you had experience with different adapters, then could you
>
> recommend the best between them...
>
>
>
> thank you very much
>
>
>
> aldo cernezzi
>
> www.voloavela.it
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 23 May 2013 17:45:22 -0600, "Dan Marotta"
>
> <dcmarottat> wrote:
>
>
>
> >My Dell Streak receives air data via Bluetooth from my CAI-302.

[Max Kellermann[_2_]]

On Sunday, May 26, 2013 4:56:19 AM UTC+2, Morgan wrote:
> Unfortunately the XCSoar team hasn't had anyone jump in and write the appropriate drivers for the LNAV to get data from it.

A driver for the L-Nav written by Alan Walls has been merged just a few days ago:

http://git.xcsoar.org/cgit/master/xcsoar.git/commit/?id=89582dab

It will appear in XCSoar-testing very soon: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.xcsoar.testing

[cernauta]

On Sat, 25 May 2013 19:56:19 -0700 (PDT), Morgan >
wrote:

>I have used the SoarTronics BT Adapter to connect my Streak to my Powerflarm. It worked great. I suspect you could use it to connect to a 302 as well, though I can't remember for sure. It has a couple of standard 8ping network cable type connectors. I know people who have used the k6-BT for 302 connection though.

thanks!
aldo

[Dan Marotta]

I use the K6BT. It plugs directly into my CAI302 and pairs with my Streak.


"cernauta" > wrote in message
...
> I'd like to know what BT interface/adapter you are using,
> or, if you had experience with different adapters, then could you
> recommend the best between them...
>
> thank you very much
>
> aldo cernezzi
> www.voloavela.it
>
>
>
> On Thu, 23 May 2013 17:45:22 -0600, "Dan Marotta"
> > wrote:
>
>>My Dell Streak receives air data via Bluetooth from my CAI-302.
>