Ramp checked at AVP today

[Doug Vetter]

Hi all,

Just figured I'd relate an experience I had today -- I was ramp checked
at Wilkes Barre, PA, for the second time in 15 years of flying.

After shooting a nice "high speed" ILS to a full stop landing, I pulled
up to Tech Aviation. Not 10 seconds after I hopped out and told the
line crew to top the tanks, an unassuming-looking guy walked up and
flipped out an id that logo I'd seen somewhere before... He kindly
introduced himself, "Hi, I'm <name>, an inspector from the FAA" and just
said that he wanted to perform a ramp check.

I said "sure" and asked him what he wanted to see. He said "eh, just
the usual stuff, certificate, medical, aircraft documentation". While I
was busy pulling my credentials out of my flight bag he asked where I
was based. As I turned around to hand him my certificates, I caught him
writing the N number and model of the airplane in a notebook.

When he saw my CFI certificate, he just remarked "oh, you're a CFI,
eh?". "Yup" I said. I don't know if it was just me, but after that he
seemed a bit more friendly and casual. Perhaps having a CFI certificate
is a lot like having a PBA card when pulled over for speeding... :-)

He then said, "Do you have the weight and balance information for the
airplane?" I said, "sure", and grabbed the "Airplane Flight Manual"
binder I developed for the airplane, which, among other things, includes
all of the recent flight records, VOT checks, weight and balance
worksheets, a copy of the POH (this airplane doesn't have an approved
flight manual), squawk listing, and even copies of airframe / powerplant
/ prop logbook pages necessary to prove everything is in license.

When the inspector saw the binder he then asked "Is this a school or a
club airplane?" I said "No, why do you ask?" He replied that he often
sees this kind of binder in a club or school airplane, but he "couldn't
remember" when he last saw a private airplane with one. "Very nice", he
concluded.

At that point, he glanced at the weight and balance data for a couple
seconds and said, "okay that's looks good" He then commented on how
nice the airplane looked. "This airplane is in great shape...pretty
obvious you take care of it". I jokingly replied "well, my partner and
I are really particular about the airplane...so much so that we're
putting my mechanic's kids through college!" He laughed, reached out
his hand to shake mine, and said "thanks for your time, and good luck
with it!". And that was about it.

The interesting twist is I had brought the binder home last weekend so I
could make some changes to it, and I walked out of the house this
morning without it. Halfway down the driveway, I realized my error. I
thought to myself "Well, I don't really *need* it, but I better grab
it". Glad I did. If I hadn't, I would not have been able to show the
weight and balance information and the day would not have ended so well.

Morals? Make sure the airplane you fly has all of the necessary
paperwork in good order EVERY time you fly, and make sure you bring your
certificate(s) and medical with you. You NEVER know when or where
you'll be ramp checked!

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

[Jim Weir]

(S)he can check for it all (s)he wants, but it is a Department of the Treasury
(Customs) requirement, not an FAA requirement. (S)he has no legal obligation OR
standing to enforce another agencie's requirements. Just like looking in and
seeing that the radios are Mark-12s. The FCC outlawed them, not the FAA. They
will take no action...

....unless you REALLY piff them off, and then they will call in the other agency
to do the dirty work.

Jim



He can check the
->aircraft for the required anti-drug exterior data plate.
Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Bob Gardner]

Having copies of the logs is a great idea....carrying the logs is a bad
idea, which you apparently know very well. good report!

Bob Gardner

"Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
et...
> Hi all,
>
> Just figured I'd relate an experience I had today -- I was ramp checked
> at Wilkes Barre, PA, for the second time in 15 years of flying.
>
> After shooting a nice "high speed" ILS to a full stop landing, I pulled
> up to Tech Aviation. Not 10 seconds after I hopped out and told the
> line crew to top the tanks, an unassuming-looking guy walked up and
> flipped out an id that logo I'd seen somewhere before... He kindly
> introduced himself, "Hi, I'm <name>, an inspector from the FAA" and just
> said that he wanted to perform a ramp check.
>
> I said "sure" and asked him what he wanted to see. He said "eh, just
> the usual stuff, certificate, medical, aircraft documentation". While I
> was busy pulling my credentials out of my flight bag he asked where I
> was based. As I turned around to hand him my certificates, I caught him
> writing the N number and model of the airplane in a notebook.
>
> When he saw my CFI certificate, he just remarked "oh, you're a CFI,
> eh?". "Yup" I said. I don't know if it was just me, but after that he
> seemed a bit more friendly and casual. Perhaps having a CFI certificate
> is a lot like having a PBA card when pulled over for speeding... :-)
>
> He then said, "Do you have the weight and balance information for the
> airplane?" I said, "sure", and grabbed the "Airplane Flight Manual"
> binder I developed for the airplane, which, among other things, includes
> all of the recent flight records, VOT checks, weight and balance
> worksheets, a copy of the POH (this airplane doesn't have an approved
> flight manual), squawk listing, and even copies of airframe / powerplant
> / prop logbook pages necessary to prove everything is in license.
>
> When the inspector saw the binder he then asked "Is this a school or a
> club airplane?" I said "No, why do you ask?" He replied that he often
> sees this kind of binder in a club or school airplane, but he "couldn't
> remember" when he last saw a private airplane with one. "Very nice", he
> concluded.
>
> At that point, he glanced at the weight and balance data for a couple
> seconds and said, "okay that's looks good" He then commented on how
> nice the airplane looked. "This airplane is in great shape...pretty
> obvious you take care of it". I jokingly replied "well, my partner and
> I are really particular about the airplane...so much so that we're
> putting my mechanic's kids through college!" He laughed, reached out
> his hand to shake mine, and said "thanks for your time, and good luck
> with it!". And that was about it.
>
> The interesting twist is I had brought the binder home last weekend so I
> could make some changes to it, and I walked out of the house this
> morning without it. Halfway down the driveway, I realized my error. I
> thought to myself "Well, I don't really *need* it, but I better grab
> it". Glad I did. If I hadn't, I would not have been able to show the
> weight and balance information and the day would not have ended so well.
>
> Morals? Make sure the airplane you fly has all of the necessary
> paperwork in good order EVERY time you fly, and make sure you bring your
> certificate(s) and medical with you. You NEVER know when or where
> you'll be ramp checked!
>
> -Doug
>
> --
> --------------------
> Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA
>
> http://www.dvcfi.com
> --------------------
>

[BTIZ]

Don't get me wrong, It's nice to be friendly and polite with the local FAA
on a "ramp check", but don't get carried away.

He can ask for anything he wants.. That does not mean he gets to see them.
He can "see" not handle, the pilot certificate and a medical if required.
What would you have done if he pocketed the certificate or your medical.

Any thing else he asks to see, "Sorry, I'm have an appointment to go to, can
we make an appointment at my local FSDO and have the aircraft paperwork
reviewed there?" That's it, done.

Most logs are not carried, but POH with weight and balance are required. But
they need not be shown during a ramp check. Same for charts, what ever. He
can look in the airplane by looking through the window. He can check the
aircraft for the required anti-drug exterior data plate.

You lucked out.

BT
"Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
et...
> Hi all,
>
> Just figured I'd relate an experience I had today -- I was ramp checked
> at Wilkes Barre, PA, for the second time in 15 years of flying.
>
> After shooting a nice "high speed" ILS to a full stop landing, I pulled
> up to Tech Aviation. Not 10 seconds after I hopped out and told the
> line crew to top the tanks, an unassuming-looking guy walked up and
> flipped out an id that logo I'd seen somewhere before... He kindly
> introduced himself, "Hi, I'm <name>, an inspector from the FAA" and just
> said that he wanted to perform a ramp check.
>
> I said "sure" and asked him what he wanted to see. He said "eh, just
> the usual stuff, certificate, medical, aircraft documentation". While I
> was busy pulling my credentials out of my flight bag he asked where I
> was based. As I turned around to hand him my certificates, I caught him
> writing the N number and model of the airplane in a notebook.
>
> When he saw my CFI certificate, he just remarked "oh, you're a CFI,
> eh?". "Yup" I said. I don't know if it was just me, but after that he
> seemed a bit more friendly and casual. Perhaps having a CFI certificate
> is a lot like having a PBA card when pulled over for speeding... :-)
>
> He then said, "Do you have the weight and balance information for the
> airplane?" I said, "sure", and grabbed the "Airplane Flight Manual"
> binder I developed for the airplane, which, among other things, includes
> all of the recent flight records, VOT checks, weight and balance
> worksheets, a copy of the POH (this airplane doesn't have an approved
> flight manual), squawk listing, and even copies of airframe / powerplant
> / prop logbook pages necessary to prove everything is in license.
>
> When the inspector saw the binder he then asked "Is this a school or a
> club airplane?" I said "No, why do you ask?" He replied that he often
> sees this kind of binder in a club or school airplane, but he "couldn't
> remember" when he last saw a private airplane with one. "Very nice", he
> concluded.
>
> At that point, he glanced at the weight and balance data for a couple
> seconds and said, "okay that's looks good" He then commented on how
> nice the airplane looked. "This airplane is in great shape...pretty
> obvious you take care of it". I jokingly replied "well, my partner and
> I are really particular about the airplane...so much so that we're
> putting my mechanic's kids through college!" He laughed, reached out
> his hand to shake mine, and said "thanks for your time, and good luck
> with it!". And that was about it.
>
> The interesting twist is I had brought the binder home last weekend so I
> could make some changes to it, and I walked out of the house this
> morning without it. Halfway down the driveway, I realized my error. I
> thought to myself "Well, I don't really *need* it, but I better grab
> it". Glad I did. If I hadn't, I would not have been able to show the
> weight and balance information and the day would not have ended so well.
>
> Morals? Make sure the airplane you fly has all of the necessary
> paperwork in good order EVERY time you fly, and make sure you bring your
> certificate(s) and medical with you. You NEVER know when or where
> you'll be ramp checked!
>
> -Doug
>
> --
> --------------------
> Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA
>
> http://www.dvcfi.com
> --------------------
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Doug Vetter wrote:
>
> He laughed, reached out
> his hand to shake mine, and said "thanks for your time, and good luck
> with it!". And that was about it.

Sounds like both of you did things right by the book. Good thing you went back for
the binder - I keep my POH in my flight case to make sure I always have it when I'm
in the plane.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[kage]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:Pvmdc.364$Va4.47@fed1read01...
> You lucked out.


No he didn't. He was prepared. No luck involved.

Karl

[Newps]

Bob Gardner wrote:

> Having copies of the logs is a great idea....carrying the logs is a bad
> idea, which you apparently know very well. good report!

Why would you want a copy of your logs with you? You do not need to
prove that a component is legal RIGHT NOW. Assuming it is legal the
airplane cannot be grounded because the inspector thinks it's not legal.
If he has a question he can make an appointment to look at your logs,
more likely he will have you fax over the relavant info.

[Jay Honeck]

> He laughed, reached out
> his hand to shake mine, and said "thanks for your time, and good luck
> with it!". And that was about it.

That's exactly the way it went down when Mary and I were ramp checked in
Racine, WI a couple of years ago.

If you have a well maintained airplane, with proper paperwork, and you're
pleasant and cooperative, a ramp check is easier than being checked by TSA
on a commercial flight.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Gardner]

Saved him a little hassle by not having to go to the trouble of making more
copies and/or making a visit to the FSDO.

Bob Gardner

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:iImdc.103080$JO3.59160@attbi_s04...
>
>
> Bob Gardner wrote:
>
> > Having copies of the logs is a great idea....carrying the logs is a bad
> > idea, which you apparently know very well. good report!
>
> Why would you want a copy of your logs with you? You do not need to
> prove that a component is legal RIGHT NOW. Assuming it is legal the
> airplane cannot be grounded because the inspector thinks it's not legal.
> If he has a question he can make an appointment to look at your logs,
> more likely he will have you fax over the relavant info.
>

[Doug Vetter]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> That's exactly the way it went down when Mary and I were ramp checked in
> Racine, WI a couple of years ago.
>
> If you have a well maintained airplane, with proper paperwork, and you're
> pleasant and cooperative, a ramp check is easier than being checked by TSA
> on a commercial flight.

Amen. I think I'd feel more comfortable going to a protcologist than
being subject to the invasive TSA "exam".

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

[Doug Vetter]

Bob Gardner wrote:
> Saved him a little hassle by not having to go to the trouble of making more
> copies and/or making a visit to the FSDO.
>
> Bob Gardner

And that's indeed the spirit in which I decided to include that
information. I realize some say that the inspector doesn't have the
right to see everything right then, but more often than not, I've found
that when you deal with a FAA inspector -- either for a flight test such
as the initial CFI or a ramp check -- honesty and openness is the best
policy.

Some of these guys can really make your life a living hell if they want
to, so while I won't volunteer information (note that I asked him what
he wanted to see), I'll generally be prepared to supply anything they
might reasonably ask for in the hope they will not see me as a "target"
and walk away. That's precisely what happened today.

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

[Blanche]

I keep a copy of the current W&B in the folder in the aircraft along
with the AROW documents. I don't keep all the supporting docs -- they
weigh about 5 pounds!

[dave]

What is
"He can check the
aircraft for the required anti-drug exterior data plate." ?

Also, since I fly a citabria there really isn't any where to put very
much stuff. I have one of the multi-compartment bags that hangs off
the back of an automobile seat bungeed in the baggage compartment
(couldn't see spending the premium for the "aviation" bag from
Sporty's). I carry the certificates, POH, W&B chart. I also have the
W&B plugged into my GPS. Does that count if I didn't, although I do,
have a paper copy of the W&B?

Does a fresh printout from aeroplanner count as a current chart?

Dave
68 7ECA

[Richard Kaplan]

"dave" > wrote in message
...

> W&B plugged into my GPS. Does that count if I didn't, although I do,
> have a paper copy of the W&B?

Only the W&B form signed by a mechanic counts as the legally required W&B --
a GPS database does not suffice.

> Does a fresh printout from aeroplanner count as a current chart?

There is no legal requirement for you to carry VFR charts period -- just a
requirement that you obtain all necessary information before the flight.
For IFR you would be unable to accept airways clearances or deal with lost
communication procedures without charts, so charts are required there as
part of the requirement for appropriate navigation equipment.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[C J Campbell]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:Pvmdc.364$Va4.47@fed1read01...
> He can check the
> aircraft for the required anti-drug exterior data plate.
>

The reason for the data plate is much the same as the VIN on your car, with
the additional purpose of ensuring that someone just doesn't go building a
Cessna 172 out of spare parts. Drugs has nothing to do with it.

A friend of mine just bought a Beaver in Canada. The plane had a long
history in both the US and Canada, having been owned at various times by
different owners on both sides of the border. Anyway, when he went to
register the plane he found that it was listed as destroyed. The data plate
was an illegal duplicate. There were actually two Beavers flying around with
the same data plate for awhile. My friend wanted to use the Beaver for
charter, but now the FAA says that because of the incomplete records and
questionable past the plane can never be certified as anything but
experimental. Apparently several former owners on both sides of the border
knew all this and just turned a blind eye toward it; now they are all
pointing fingers at each other. Dehavilland is threatening to get into the
act, tracking down and suing whoever built an illegal copy of its plane. It
is a huge mess and everyone is starting to file lawsuits against everybody
else. Nevertheless, there are apparently a lot of Beavers out there that
have the same problem.

Air America ran into some of the same problem. A lot of those Pilatus
Porters came back badly shot up and Air America started cobbling together
whole new planes out of salvaged parts. They eventually went to
manufacturing planes from spare parts, including special modifications that
little resembled the original Porters. They made up new data plates and even
had multiple airplanes flying around with the same tail numbers and
duplicate data plates. Pilatus eventually sued for infringement, and won.
The illegal aircraft were ordered destroyed. It was a factor in Congress'
decision to shut Air America down (one of many, including complaints from
other airlines that the government should not be competing directly with
them, the discovery that some pilots were conducting illegal activities, the
airline's cover had been completely blown, and -- most importantly -- the
CIA's determination that they no longer needed the airline).

[EDR]

> Air America ran into some of the same problem. A lot of those Pilatus
> Porters came back badly shot up and Air America started cobbling together
> whole new planes out of salvaged parts. They eventually went to
> manufacturing planes from spare parts, including special modifications that
> little resembled the original Porters. They made up new data plates and even
> had multiple airplanes flying around with the same tail numbers and
> duplicate data plates. Pilatus eventually sued for infringement, and won.
> The illegal aircraft were ordered destroyed. It was a factor in Congress'
> decision to shut Air America down (one of many, including complaints from
> other airlines that the government should not be competing directly with
> them, the discovery that some pilots were conducting illegal activities, the
> airline's cover had been completely blown, and -- most importantly -- the
> CIA's determination that they no longer needed the airline).

The book I read told about a factory on a barge in Taiwan that was
manufacturing whole airplanes, not just spare parts.

[pacplyer]

I had just come off of vacation, the traffic was bad, and didn't get
to the airport until showtime. Damn, four huge revisions were in my
box. Oh well I'll just do them during the layover I thought. No one
had ever checked my Jepps in my entire career. Bad wx, 15 hr duty day
and the layover in ANC was just for sleep. Next morning I'm
preflighting my side of the cockpit and I freeze when I hear the words
"FAA and ramp check." And then the unthinkable happened. The fed
looks over at me and asks; "Your Jepp's all up to date?" I looked him
right in the eye and deadpanned: "You Bet!" He replied; "Good
Answer," filled out some paperwork and he left. After I leveled off
and slapped on the A/P, I pulled out these huge orangish envelopes and
the paper started flying. The Captain looks over and exclaims: "OH!
YOU LUCKY SON OF A BITCH!"

pacplyer - out




Doug Vetter > wrote in message >...
> Hi all,
>
> Just figured I'd relate an experience I had today -- I was ramp checked
> at Wilkes Barre, PA, for the second time in 15 years of flying.
>
> After shooting a nice "high speed" ILS to a full stop landing, I pulled
> up to Tech Aviation. Not 10 seconds after I hopped out and told the
> line crew to top the tanks, an unassuming-looking guy walked up and
> flipped out an id that logo I'd seen somewhere before... He kindly
> introduced himself, "Hi, I'm <name>, an inspector from the FAA" and just
> said that he wanted to perform a ramp check.
>
> I said "sure" and asked him what he wanted to see. He said "eh, just
> the usual stuff, certificate, medical, aircraft documentation". While I
> was busy pulling my credentials out of my flight bag he asked where I
> was based. As I turned around to hand him my certificates, I caught him
> writing the N number and model of the airplane in a notebook.
>
> When he saw my CFI certificate, he just remarked "oh, you're a CFI,
> eh?". "Yup" I said. I don't know if it was just me, but after that he
> seemed a bit more friendly and casual. Perhaps having a CFI certificate
> is a lot like having a PBA card when pulled over for speeding... :-)
>
> He then said, "Do you have the weight and balance information for the
> airplane?" I said, "sure", and grabbed the "Airplane Flight Manual"
> binder I developed for the airplane, which, among other things, includes
> all of the recent flight records, VOT checks, weight and balance
> worksheets, a copy of the POH (this airplane doesn't have an approved
> flight manual), squawk listing, and even copies of airframe / powerplant
> / prop logbook pages necessary to prove everything is in license.
>
> When the inspector saw the binder he then asked "Is this a school or a
> club airplane?" I said "No, why do you ask?" He replied that he often
> sees this kind of binder in a club or school airplane, but he "couldn't
> remember" when he last saw a private airplane with one. "Very nice", he
> concluded.
>
> At that point, he glanced at the weight and balance data for a couple
> seconds and said, "okay that's looks good" He then commented on how
> nice the airplane looked. "This airplane is in great shape...pretty
> obvious you take care of it". I jokingly replied "well, my partner and
> I are really particular about the airplane...so much so that we're
> putting my mechanic's kids through college!" He laughed, reached out
> his hand to shake mine, and said "thanks for your time, and good luck
> with it!". And that was about it.
>
> The interesting twist is I had brought the binder home last weekend so I
> could make some changes to it, and I walked out of the house this
> morning without it. Halfway down the driveway, I realized my error. I
> thought to myself "Well, I don't really *need* it, but I better grab
> it". Glad I did. If I hadn't, I would not have been able to show the
> weight and balance information and the day would not have ended so well.
>
> Morals? Make sure the airplane you fly has all of the necessary
> paperwork in good order EVERY time you fly, and make sure you bring your
> certificate(s) and medical with you. You NEVER know when or where
> you'll be ramp checked!
>
> -Doug

[Newps]

BTIZ wrote:

> He can ask for anything he wants.. That does not mean he gets to see them.
> He can "see" not handle, the pilot certificate and a medical if required.

That's assinine.


> What would you have done if he pocketed the certificate or your medical.

I'll get in my plane and fly away.


>
> Any thing else he asks to see, "Sorry, I'm have an appointment to go to, can
> we make an appointment at my local FSDO and have the aircraft paperwork
> reviewed there?" That's it, done.
>
> Most logs are not carried, but POH with weight and balance are required. But
> they need not be shown during a ramp check. Same for charts, what ever. He
> can look in the airplane by looking through the window. He can check the
> aircraft for the required anti-drug exterior data plate.
>
> You lucked out.

No he didn't. That's how 99% of them go.

[Andrew Sarangan]

Newps > wrote in
news:TKzdc.105262$w54.746429@attbi_s01:

>
>
> BTIZ wrote:
>
>> He can ask for anything he wants.. That does not mean he gets to see
>> them. He can "see" not handle, the pilot certificate and a medical if
>> required.
>
> That's assinine.
>
>
>> What would you have done if he pocketed the certificate or your
>> medical.
>
> I'll get in my plane and fly away.
>
>
>>
>> Any thing else he asks to see, "Sorry, I'm have an appointment to go
>> to, can we make an appointment at my local FSDO and have the aircraft
>> paperwork reviewed there?" That's it, done.
>>
>> Most logs are not carried, but POH with weight and balance are
>> required. But they need not be shown during a ramp check. Same for
>> charts, what ever. He can look in the airplane by looking through the
>> window. He can check the aircraft for the required anti-drug exterior
>> data plate.
>>
>> You lucked out.
>
> No he didn't. That's how 99% of them go.
>
>

How could you refuse to show evidence of having a required document such
as W&B? Isn't that the purpose of a ramp check?

[Newps]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> Newps > wrote in
> news:TKzdc.105262$w54.746429@attbi_s01:
>
>
>>
>>BTIZ wrote:
>>
>>
>>>He can ask for anything he wants.. That does not mean he gets to see
>>>them. He can "see" not handle, the pilot certificate and a medical if
>>>required.
>>
>>That's assinine.
>>
>>
>>
>>>What would you have done if he pocketed the certificate or your
>>>medical.
>>
>>I'll get in my plane and fly away.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Any thing else he asks to see, "Sorry, I'm have an appointment to go
>>>to, can we make an appointment at my local FSDO and have the aircraft
>>>paperwork reviewed there?" That's it, done.
>>>
>>>Most logs are not carried, but POH with weight and balance are
>>>required. But they need not be shown during a ramp check. Same for
>>>charts, what ever. He can look in the airplane by looking through the
>>>window. He can check the aircraft for the required anti-drug exterior
>>>data plate.
>>>
>>>You lucked out.
>>
>>No he didn't. That's how 99% of them go.
>>
>>
>
>
> How could you refuse to show evidence of having a required document such
> as W&B? Isn't that the purpose of a ramp check?
>
>

Didn't say you couldn't.

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 17:55:16 -0700, BTIZ wrote:

> He can ask for anything he wants.. That does not mean he gets to see them.
> He can "see" not handle, the pilot certificate and a medical if required.
> What would you have done if he pocketed the certificate or your medical.

If the thought here is that you're surrendering your ticket by handing
them over, that's not how it's done. It's more complex than that and
requires a letter saying you're giving them up, they can't take it and say
so long sucker, and if they do, they're in hot water when you call the
FSDO immediately afterwards.

[BTIZ]

"dave" > wrote in message
...
> What is
> "He can check the
> aircraft for the required anti-drug exterior data plate." ?

it is the exterior data plate normally near the tail required for DEA

gliders are exempt

BT

[Peter Gottlieb]

I haven't heard about this. How does a data plate help the DEA?


"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:BFIdc.478$Va4.278@fed1read01...
> "dave" > wrote in message
> ...
> > What is
> > "He can check the
> > aircraft for the required anti-drug exterior data plate." ?
>
> it is the exterior data plate normally near the tail required for DEA
>
> gliders are exempt
>
> BT
>
>

[Newps]

> On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 17:55:16 -0700, BTIZ wrote:
>
>
>>He can ask for anything he wants.. That does not mean he gets to see them.
>>He can "see" not handle, the pilot certificate and a medical if required.
>>What would you have done if he pocketed the certificate or your medical.

Tell you what. Next time you see a FSDO inspector ask him what would
happen to a FSDO inspector who kept a medical or pilot certificate
during a ramp check against the pilots wishes. My local FSDO guys just
shudder at what would happen to that guy. They told me to just fly
anyways and to expect a FedEx'ed package with your stuff the next day as
well as a personal call of apology from the FSDO chief apologizing
profusely for his agents gross misconduct.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>
> I haven't heard about this. How does a data plate help the DEA?

The argument goes that it makes it easy for them to check the ID of the plane without
having to enter the plane and it's more difficult to falsify than the painted
N-numbers.

And I have some ocean-front property in Valdosta I'd like to show you, too.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[Peter Gottlieb]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Peter Gottlieb wrote:
> >
> > I haven't heard about this. How does a data plate help the DEA?
>
> The argument goes that it makes it easy for them to check the ID of the
plane without
> having to enter the plane and it's more difficult to falsify than the
painted
> N-numbers.
>

Aha. Pretty much as I figured.

[Dave Stadt]

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:FWIdc.2668$rg5.26879@attbi_s52...
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 17:55:16 -0700, BTIZ wrote:
> >
> >
> >>He can ask for anything he wants.. That does not mean he gets to see
them.
> >>He can "see" not handle, the pilot certificate and a medical if
required.
> >>What would you have done if he pocketed the certificate or your medical.
>
> Tell you what. Next time you see a FSDO inspector ask him what would
> happen to a FSDO inspector who kept a medical or pilot certificate
> during a ramp check against the pilots wishes. My local FSDO guys just
> shudder at what would happen to that guy. They told me to just fly
> anyways and to expect a FedEx'ed package with your stuff the next day as
> well as a personal call of apology from the FSDO chief apologizing
> profusely for his agents gross misconduct.

Wasn't Bob Hoovers ticket pulled on the spot by a couple of FAA types that
had no idea how to fly an airplane? It is well known that the FAA will
back its own no matter how wrong the action might have been i.e.. the
Bainbridge absurdity.

[Seth Dillon]

Blitz,
It seems just a tad bit arrogant and rather immature to bust the Fed's balls
just because he is doing his job. If you have nothing to hide then why
build up ill will by playing "who has the biggest pecker" with the FAA? One
day that attitude might just bite you in the ass when he finds some minor
problem that might be overlooked or casually mentioned to you, but do to
getting some "attitude" from you will now result in a violation. As my dad
always said, "You will catch a lot more flies with honey than with vinager."

Seth

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:Pvmdc.364$Va4.47@fed1read01...
> Don't get me wrong, It's nice to be friendly and polite with the local FAA
> on a "ramp check", but don't get carried away.
>
> He can ask for anything he wants.. That does not mean he gets to see them.
> He can "see" not handle, the pilot certificate and a medical if required.
> What would you have done if he pocketed the certificate or your medical.
>
> Any thing else he asks to see, "Sorry, I'm have an appointment to go to,
can
> we make an appointment at my local FSDO and have the aircraft paperwork
> reviewed there?" That's it, done.
>
> Most logs are not carried, but POH with weight and balance are required.
But
> they need not be shown during a ramp check. Same for charts, what ever. He
> can look in the airplane by looking through the window. He can check the
> aircraft for the required anti-drug exterior data plate.
>
> You lucked out.
>
> BT
> "Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
> et...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Just figured I'd relate an experience I had today -- I was ramp checked
> > at Wilkes Barre, PA, for the second time in 15 years of flying.
> >
> > After shooting a nice "high speed" ILS to a full stop landing, I pulled
> > up to Tech Aviation. Not 10 seconds after I hopped out and told the
> > line crew to top the tanks, an unassuming-looking guy walked up and
> > flipped out an id that logo I'd seen somewhere before... He kindly
> > introduced himself, "Hi, I'm <name>, an inspector from the FAA" and just
> > said that he wanted to perform a ramp check.
> >
> > I said "sure" and asked him what he wanted to see. He said "eh, just
> > the usual stuff, certificate, medical, aircraft documentation". While I
> > was busy pulling my credentials out of my flight bag he asked where I
> > was based. As I turned around to hand him my certificates, I caught him
> > writing the N number and model of the airplane in a notebook.
> >
> > When he saw my CFI certificate, he just remarked "oh, you're a CFI,
> > eh?". "Yup" I said. I don't know if it was just me, but after that he
> > seemed a bit more friendly and casual. Perhaps having a CFI certificate
> > is a lot like having a PBA card when pulled over for speeding... :-)
> >
> > He then said, "Do you have the weight and balance information for the
> > airplane?" I said, "sure", and grabbed the "Airplane Flight Manual"
> > binder I developed for the airplane, which, among other things, includes
> > all of the recent flight records, VOT checks, weight and balance
> > worksheets, a copy of the POH (this airplane doesn't have an approved
> > flight manual), squawk listing, and even copies of airframe / powerplant
> > / prop logbook pages necessary to prove everything is in license.
> >
> > When the inspector saw the binder he then asked "Is this a school or a
> > club airplane?" I said "No, why do you ask?" He replied that he often
> > sees this kind of binder in a club or school airplane, but he "couldn't
> > remember" when he last saw a private airplane with one. "Very nice", he
> > concluded.
> >
> > At that point, he glanced at the weight and balance data for a couple
> > seconds and said, "okay that's looks good" He then commented on how
> > nice the airplane looked. "This airplane is in great shape...pretty
> > obvious you take care of it". I jokingly replied "well, my partner and
> > I are really particular about the airplane...so much so that we're
> > putting my mechanic's kids through college!" He laughed, reached out
> > his hand to shake mine, and said "thanks for your time, and good luck
> > with it!". And that was about it.
> >
> > The interesting twist is I had brought the binder home last weekend so I
> > could make some changes to it, and I walked out of the house this
> > morning without it. Halfway down the driveway, I realized my error. I
> > thought to myself "Well, I don't really *need* it, but I better grab
> > it". Glad I did. If I hadn't, I would not have been able to show the
> > weight and balance information and the day would not have ended so well.
> >
> > Morals? Make sure the airplane you fly has all of the necessary
> > paperwork in good order EVERY time you fly, and make sure you bring your
> > certificate(s) and medical with you. You NEVER know when or where
> > you'll be ramp checked!
> >
> > -Doug
> >
> > --
> > --------------------
> > Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA
> >
> > http://www.dvcfi.com
> > --------------------
> >
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
...
> Wasn't Bob Hoovers ticket pulled on the spot by a couple of FAA types that
> had no idea how to fly an airplane?

No. His medical was revoked on an emergency basis, but that has nothing to
do with the question of whether handing your paperwork over to an inspector
will affect your certificate status one way or the other.

If the FAA wants to suspend or revoke your privileges, whether or not you
have your certificates in hand don't matter. Your privileges get suspended
or revoked, and you keeping your papers won't change that. Conversely, if
an inspector takes your certificates from you, and claims that you
voluntarily surrendered them, refusing to give them back, that does not mean
that you cannot fly. It just means that inspector will get into trouble
with his supervisors.

The rules regarding what constitutes voluntary surrender are very clear, and
nothing that happens during a ramp check could result in qualifying as
voluntary surrender (unless you somehow accidently write a letter to the FAA
during the ramp check...a bizarre situation to ponder, IMHO).

Pete

[Cub Driver]

>There is no legal requirement for you to carry VFR charts period -- just a
>requirement that you obtain all necessary information before the flight.

I've been told (never been ramp-checked myself) that the FAA guy can
interpret this to mean that your chart must be current.

(That is, you don't have to carry a chart, but you may not carry a
chart that is out of date.)

And it would seem that, if you irritated the inspector by say refusing
to let go of your pilot certificate, he could declare on the spot
that, obviously, "all necessary information" includes a chart!

Personally, I would rather not take the chance.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

>The argument goes that it makes it easy for them to check the ID of the plane without
>having to enter the plane and it's more difficult to falsify than the painted
>N-numbers.

Oh! You mean the *data plate*?

But haven't they been on airplanes all along?

That plate on Zero Six Hotel, starboard side, near the tail--that's
discouraging me from running drugs to Wiscassett, Maine?

Well, I'll be swanned.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

> If you have nothing to hide then why
>build up ill will by playing "who has the biggest pecker" with the FAA?

When I was young and stupid, I was a passenger in a car that was
stopped by the Massachusetts state police. The trooper started jawing
and jawing about our lack of courtesy, etc., whereupon the tough-guy
driver said: "Don't gimme any sh*t, just gimme the ticket."

So the trooper did.

It made a great story to tell when we got home, but it was really
really stupid.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[BllFs6]

What about this?

You hand an inspector your papers during a ramp check....

He stupidly takes or keeps something he has no legal right to....that you cant
replace on the spot...

You are stuck in Middle of Nowhere, Crappy State USA....you and the plane NEED
to get somewhere NOW....

You continue on your flight path to your destination....

Now youve shown up somewhere else WITHOUT a critical piece of paper....

WHO gets in trouble for not having the correct papers at the second ramp check?

I no nutin about piloting....and an inspector would have to be real jerk before
I'd be anything but polite, helpful, and respectable....

but I'm not sure I'd physically let go of any critical piece of paperwork I
needed either...

As they say...."possesion is 9/10ths of the law"

take care

Blll

[mike regish]

I think I'd rather have somebody looking at that stuff on the ramp as
opposed to being able to sit down comfortably at a desk to look it over.

mike regish

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:Pvmdc.364$Va4.47@fed1read01...
> Don't get me wrong, It's nice to be friendly and polite with the local FAA
> on a "ramp check", but don't get carried away.
>
> He can ask for anything he wants.. That does not mean he gets to see them.
> He can "see" not handle, the pilot certificate and a medical if required.
> What would you have done if he pocketed the certificate or your medical.
>
> Any thing else he asks to see, "Sorry, I'm have an appointment to go to,
can
> we make an appointment at my local FSDO and have the aircraft paperwork
> reviewed there?" That's it, done.
>
> Most logs are not carried, but POH with weight and balance are required.
But
> they need not be shown during a ramp check. Same for charts, what ever. He
> can look in the airplane by looking through the window. He can check the
> aircraft for the required anti-drug exterior data plate.
>
> You lucked out.
>
> BT
> "Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
> et...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Just figured I'd relate an experience I had today -- I was ramp checked
> > at Wilkes Barre, PA, for the second time in 15 years of flying.
> >
> > After shooting a nice "high speed" ILS to a full stop landing, I pulled
> > up to Tech Aviation. Not 10 seconds after I hopped out and told the
> > line crew to top the tanks, an unassuming-looking guy walked up and
> > flipped out an id that logo I'd seen somewhere before... He kindly
> > introduced himself, "Hi, I'm <name>, an inspector from the FAA" and just
> > said that he wanted to perform a ramp check.
> >
> > I said "sure" and asked him what he wanted to see. He said "eh, just
> > the usual stuff, certificate, medical, aircraft documentation". While I
> > was busy pulling my credentials out of my flight bag he asked where I
> > was based. As I turned around to hand him my certificates, I caught him
> > writing the N number and model of the airplane in a notebook.
> >
> > When he saw my CFI certificate, he just remarked "oh, you're a CFI,
> > eh?". "Yup" I said. I don't know if it was just me, but after that he
> > seemed a bit more friendly and casual. Perhaps having a CFI certificate
> > is a lot like having a PBA card when pulled over for speeding... :-)
> >
> > He then said, "Do you have the weight and balance information for the
> > airplane?" I said, "sure", and grabbed the "Airplane Flight Manual"
> > binder I developed for the airplane, which, among other things, includes
> > all of the recent flight records, VOT checks, weight and balance
> > worksheets, a copy of the POH (this airplane doesn't have an approved
> > flight manual), squawk listing, and even copies of airframe / powerplant
> > / prop logbook pages necessary to prove everything is in license.
> >
> > When the inspector saw the binder he then asked "Is this a school or a
> > club airplane?" I said "No, why do you ask?" He replied that he often
> > sees this kind of binder in a club or school airplane, but he "couldn't
> > remember" when he last saw a private airplane with one. "Very nice", he
> > concluded.
> >
> > At that point, he glanced at the weight and balance data for a couple
> > seconds and said, "okay that's looks good" He then commented on how
> > nice the airplane looked. "This airplane is in great shape...pretty
> > obvious you take care of it". I jokingly replied "well, my partner and
> > I are really particular about the airplane...so much so that we're
> > putting my mechanic's kids through college!" He laughed, reached out
> > his hand to shake mine, and said "thanks for your time, and good luck
> > with it!". And that was about it.
> >
> > The interesting twist is I had brought the binder home last weekend so I
> > could make some changes to it, and I walked out of the house this
> > morning without it. Halfway down the driveway, I realized my error. I
> > thought to myself "Well, I don't really *need* it, but I better grab
> > it". Glad I did. If I hadn't, I would not have been able to show the
> > weight and balance information and the day would not have ended so well.
> >
> > Morals? Make sure the airplane you fly has all of the necessary
> > paperwork in good order EVERY time you fly, and make sure you bring your
> > certificate(s) and medical with you. You NEVER know when or where
> > you'll be ramp checked!
> >
> > -Doug
> >
> > --
> > --------------------
> > Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA
> >
> > http://www.dvcfi.com
> > --------------------
> >
>
>

[Richard Kaplan]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...>


> I've been told (never been ramp-checked myself) that the FAA guy can
> interpret this to mean that your chart must be current.

I know this is a prevalent story, but I have never read of any enforcement
action on this.

It is very clear that the FAA's standard does not require any sectional
chart at all for flight in your traffic pattern or the immediate vicinity of
your airport. Is having an old chart onboard worse than no chart? No.

I always do have current charts onboard for wherever I plan to fly, and when
I fly cross-country I often carry with me expired charts for areas quite a
bit off course but where theoretically I might divert in a doomsday
situation. Does having those just-in-case expired charts make me less
safe? No, of course not.

Again, I do not believe there has ever been an enforcement action on this
issue, nor could/should there be one.

Again, you DO clearly need current IFR charts -- but even there, what's
wrong with carrying expired charts for places you don't plan to go unless
some one-in-a-million weather or mechanical event occurs?

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[Newps]

Dave Stadt wrote:


>
> Wasn't Bob Hoovers ticket pulled on the spot by a couple of FAA types that
> had no idea how to fly an airplane?

No, not on the spot. That's not even possible to do.

[Newps]

Cub Driver wrote:

>>The argument goes that it makes it easy for them to check the ID of the plane without
>>having to enter the plane and it's more difficult to falsify than the painted
>>N-numbers.
>
>
> Oh! You mean the *data plate*?
>
> But haven't they been on airplanes all along?

Most, not all planes. Now they all have to be in the same spot. Pilots
side on the fuselage just in fron of the tail.

[Newps]

BllFs6 wrote:

> What about this?
>
> You hand an inspector your papers during a ramp check....
>
> He stupidly takes or keeps something he has no legal right to....that you cant
> replace on the spot...
>
> You are stuck in Middle of Nowhere, Crappy State USA....you and the plane NEED
> to get somewhere NOW....
>
> You continue on your flight path to your destination....
>
> Now youve shown up somewhere else WITHOUT a critical piece of paper....
>
> WHO gets in trouble for not having the correct papers at the second ramp check?

The FSDO guy from the last ramp check.


>
> I no nutin about piloting....and an inspector would have to be real jerk before
> I'd be anything but polite, helpful, and respectable....
>
> but I'm not sure I'd physically let go of any critical piece of paperwork I
> needed either...

Nothin' to worry about.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> >There is no legal requirement for you to carry VFR charts period -- just a
> >requirement that you obtain all necessary information before the flight.
>
> I've been told (never been ramp-checked myself) that the FAA guy can
> interpret this to mean that your chart must be current.

As of 1997, this is not the case, according to inspector Ryan of the Allentown FSDO.
The triggering incident was a case in which an inspector violated a pilot for having
an out-of-date database in his GPS. The inspector argued that this was exactly the
same as having an out-of-date chart. The FAA agreed with the logic and issued orders
to all the inspectors that out-of-date charts are ok.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> >The argument goes that it makes it easy for them to check the ID of the plane without
> >having to enter the plane and it's more difficult to falsify than the painted
> >N-numbers.
>
> Oh! You mean the *data plate*?
>
> But haven't they been on airplanes all along?

Not in that location. The data plate was located inside the aircraft until the early
'90s. Then the feds passed two regulations; one required that all aircraft have 12"
high N-numbers and the other required an identification plate be added at the tail.
These were quickly ammended to allow aircraft with smaller numbers to retain them
until the next paint job, allow some other aircraft (mainly antiques) to retain the
smaller numbers, and to allow the registration info to be painted on instead of
having a plate if the aircraft did not originally come with an exterior plate.

In my '69 Cessna, the data plate was inside the cabin and the serial number and
aircraft type were painted on the fuselage below the horizontal stabilizer. My Maule
was built after the regs went into effect, and the data plate is riveted to the tail.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dave Stadt wrote:
>
> Wasn't Bob Hoovers ticket pulled on the spot by a couple of FAA types that
> had no idea how to fly an airplane?

Yes, and that's precisely why inspectors aren't allowed to do it anymore.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[Peter R.]

Cub Driver wrote:

> When I was young and stupid, I was a passenger in a car that was
> stopped by the Massachusetts state police. The trooper started jawing
> and jawing about our lack of courtesy, etc., whereupon the tough-guy
> driver said: "Don't gimme any sh*t, just gimme the ticket."
>
> So the trooper did.
>
> It made a great story to tell when we got home, but it was really
> really stupid.

Conversely, when I was a young driver, I escaped more than a couple of
speeding tickets by simply being polite and showing respect to the
officer.

No matter how one feels, it rarely ever pays to **** off a government
employee.

--
Peter

[tom418]

Bill, you bring up an interesting point.

Years ago, I visited the Portland Me. GADO office, IGI written in hand, so
as to get the IGI rating added to my Ground instructor Certificate.

While I was there, the two FAA inspectors were discussing a pending
violation of one of the local pilots. His crime: He had just taken (and
passed) his ME checkride, BUT THE FAA forgot to add "Multiengine Land" to
his temporary certificate.
The pilot was caught during a ramp check without the appropriate rating for
the plane he was flying(a twin). Sure, the pilot was a dimbulb for not
noticing the discrepancy (pays $$ for a ME rating , passes, and no mention
of it on the new certificate!), but he was being violated for what was
ultimately an error by the FAA.

"BllFs6" > wrote in message
...
> What about this?
>
> You hand an inspector your papers during a ramp check....
>
> He stupidly takes or keeps something he has no legal right to....that you
cant
> replace on the spot...
>
> You are stuck in Middle of Nowhere, Crappy State USA....you and the plane
NEED
> to get somewhere NOW....
>
> You continue on your flight path to your destination....
>
> Now youve shown up somewhere else WITHOUT a critical piece of paper....
>
> WHO gets in trouble for not having the correct papers at the second ramp
check?
>
> I no nutin about piloting....and an inspector would have to be real jerk
before
> I'd be anything but polite, helpful, and respectable....
>
> but I'm not sure I'd physically let go of any critical piece of paperwork
I
> needed either...
>
> As they say...."possesion is 9/10ths of the law"
>
> take care
>
> Blll

[Bruce Bockius]

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message >
> Only the W&B form signed by a mechanic counts as the legally required W&B --
> a GPS database does not suffice.

Can you point me to an FAR that says this?

Thanks,
Bruce Bockius

[Cub Driver]

(No chart okay, out-of-date chart bad:)

>I know this is a prevalent story, but I have never read of any enforcement
>action on this.

Thanks for the added information.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

>Most, not all planes. Now they all have to be in the same spot. Pilots
>side on the fuselage just in fron of the tail.

That's pretty funny. I wonder how many DEA guys know that the pilot's
side in a J-3 is the port side?

(What about the PA-22? The pilot sits on the left but enters and
leaves on the right?)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Kyle Boatright]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> <snip> The data plate was located inside the aircraft until the early
> '90s. Then the feds passed two regulations; one required that all aircraft
have 12"
> high N-numbers and the other required an identification plate be added at
the tail.
> These were quickly ammended to allow aircraft with smaller numbers to
retain them
> until the next paint job, allow some other aircraft (mainly antiques) to
retain the
> smaller numbers, and to allow the registration info to be painted on
instead of
> having a plate if the aircraft did not originally come with an exterior
plate.
>

>
> George Patterson

The 12' numbers are for crossing the ADIZ and/or for aircraft with a cruise
speed that is higher than most piston engined aircraft.

Here's the FAR (pulled from the Matronics RV List Archives - a very handy
source of information): http://www.matronics.com/searching/search.html


45.29 Size of marks.
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (f) of this section, each operator of an
aircraft shall display marks on the aircraft meeting the size requirements
of this section.
(b) Height. Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this part, the
nationality and registration marks must be of equal height and on -
(1) Fixed-wing aircraft, must be at least 12 inches high, except that:
(i) An aircraft displaying marks at least 2 inches high before November 1,
1981 and an aircraft manufactured after November 2, 1981, but before January
1, 1983, may display those marks until the aircraft is repainted or the
marks are repainted, restored, or changed;
(ii) Marks at least 3 inches high may be displayed on a glider;

(iii) Marks at least 3 inches high may be displayed on an aircraft for which
an experimental certificate has been issued under 21.191(d) or 21.191(g) for
operating as an exhibition aircraft or as an amateur-built aircraft when the
maximum cruising speed of the aircraft does not exceed 180 knots CAS; and

(iv) Marks may be displayed on an exhibition, antique, or other aircraft in
accordance with 45.22.
(2) Airships, spherical balloons, and nonspherical balloons, must be at
least 3 inches high; and
(3) Rotorcraft, must be at least 12 inches high, except that rotorcraft
displaying before April 18, 1983, marks required by 45.29(b)(3) in effect on
April 17, 1983, and rotorcraft manufactured on or after April 18, 1983, but
before December 31, 1983, may display those marks until the aircraft is
repainted or the marks are repainted, restored, or changed.
(c) Width. Characters must be two-thirds as wide as they are high, except
the number "1", which must be one-sixth as wide as it is high, and the
letters "M" and "W" which may be as wide as they are high.
(d) Thickness. Characters must be formed by solid lines one-sixth as thick
as the character is high.
(e) Spacing. The space between each character may not be less than
one-fourth of the character width.
(f) If either one of the surfaces authorized for displaying required marks
under 45.25 is large enough for display of marks meeting the size
requirements of this section and the other is not, full-size marks shall be
placed on the larger surface. If neither surface is large enough for
full-size marks, marks as large as practicable shall be displayed on the
larger of the two surfaces. If any surface authorized to be marked by 45.27
is not large enough for full-size marks, marks as large as practicable shall
be placed on the largest of the authorized surfaces.
(g) Uniformity. The marks required by this part for fixed-wing aircraft must
have the same height, width, thickness, and spacing on both sides of the
aircraft.
(h) After March 7, 1988, each operator of an aircraft penetrating an ADIZ or
DEWIZ shall display on that aircraft temporary or permanent nationality and
registration marks at least 12 inches high.

Section iii is for you. Unless you intend to fly a ADIZ or DEWIZ then if
your cruising speed is 180 KNOTS CAS you can use the 3". Note! Canada
doesn't count.

KB

[vincent p. norris]

>Again, you DO clearly need current IFR charts --

Although I can't imagine setting off on an IFR flight without a
current IFR chart, it is not requried to have ANY chart on an IFR
flight! If you get to your destination without a problem fine.

If you cause a problem, though, you'll have some explaining to do.

vince norris

[Andrew Sarangan]

vincent p. norris > wrote in
:

>>Again, you DO clearly need current IFR charts --
>
> Although I can't imagine setting off on an IFR flight without a
> current IFR chart, it is not requried to have ANY chart on an IFR
> flight! If you get to your destination without a problem fine.
>
> If you cause a problem, though, you'll have some explaining to do.
>
> vince norris

Except taht if you cause a problem, whether the chart is current or not is
not going to make any difference.

[Cub Driver]

>If you cause a problem, though, you'll have some explaining to do.

That reminds me of what my flight instructor said on the subject of
whether the FAA actually requires a certificated pilot or mechanic at
the controls when you are propping a plane: "Dan, there are a whole
lot of reasons why you would not want this to become an issue."


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 15:37:05 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>I wonder how many DEA guys know that the pilot's
>side in a J-3 is the port side?

Argh! STARBOARD. (At least he enters and exits on the right.)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

>(iv) Marks may be displayed on an exhibition, antique, or other aircraft in
>accordance with 45.22.

Is "antique" a matter of years, and if so how many?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> >(iv) Marks may be displayed on an exhibition, antique, or other aircraft in
> >accordance with 45.22.
>
> Is "antique" a matter of years, and if so how many?

Thirty. See 45.22.b.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[Marty]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 15:37:05 -0400, Cub Driver
> > wrote:
>
> >I wonder how many DEA guys know that the pilot's
> >side in a J-3 is the port side?
>
> Argh! STARBOARD. (At least he enters and exits on the right.)
>
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

A simple line my instuctor told me made this easy to remember,

"Port wine is RED and you always pour from the LEFT"

Marty

[Peter R.]

Marty wrote:

> A simple line my instuctor told me made this easy to remember,
>
> "Port wine is RED and you always pour from the LEFT"

Many years ago at summer camp while learning to sail, I learned "PORT
and LEFT have four letters." :)


--
Peter

[S Green]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Marty wrote:
>
> > A simple line my instuctor told me made this easy to remember,
> >
> > "Port wine is RED and you always pour from the LEFT"
>
> Many years ago at summer camp while learning to sail, I learned "PORT
> and LEFT have four letters." :)


Port Out Starboard Home. This referred to the best cabins on the ships to
India from England. The POSH cabins were the cooler ones and attracted a
premium fare.

This lead to the introduction of the word POSH for anything uppercrustish or
better than the norm.

[vincent p. norris]

>That reminds me of what my flight instructor said on the subject of
>whether the FAA actually requires a certificated pilot or mechanic at
>the controls when you are propping a plane: "Dan, there are a whole
>lot of reasons why you would not want this to become an issue."

Many years ago at OSH, as I remember the report, some idiot propped a
plane with no one in it. It got away from him and cut both legs off
a girl sleeping in a tent nearby.

Painful even to think of something so horrible, but I've never been
able to forget it.

vince norris

[pacplyer]

vincent p. norris > wrote in message >...
> >Again, you DO clearly need current IFR charts --
>
> Although I can't imagine setting off on an IFR flight without a
> current IFR chart, it is not requried to have ANY chart on an IFR
> flight! If you get to your destination without a problem fine.
>
> If you cause a problem, though, you'll have some explaining to do.
>
> vince norris

Maybe from a literal reading context under part 91. But the
individual ops specs of FAR135 or FAR121 will specifiy what pubs
crewmembers must carry. But still Vince, I just can't buy this even
under part 91. The careless and reckless part of the regs will always
be applicable. And the FAA may require an IFR proficiency check on
your ass. If you show up without charts the check is over before it
even starts.

I once was jumpseating on an MD-11 from HKG to OAK. The Captain felt
that way and just decided that he'd use the F/O's Jepps that trip so
he left his at home(what an asshole.) Anyway the co-pilot pulls out
his STAR that ATC just cleared him on and sets it on the center
pedastal in front of the thrust levers so that both pilots could see
the arrival. We didn't see it happen, but I've witnessed this before:
It just disappeared! Suction from avionics fans probably slurpped it
down the crack! I made the mistake of telling the captain about this
possibility as he was blaming the F/O for losing it. The Capt then
asks me to tear up the floor hatch behind him and go down in the "hell
hole" and look for it. That was the end of my white shirt! About
like an MIR space station EVA. Took a couple of minutes hanging
upside down just to look for the damned avionics bay light switch down
there. Then it was a real snake act to get my fat body through the
tiny hole and traverse over up under the center cockpit. Never did
find it.

Moral of the story: carry your ****ing charts, dammit!

pacplyer - out

[PJ Hunt]

I wonder how many pilots know where the port side or the starboard side is?

Are we flying airplanes or boats?

PJ

=========================================

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...

> That's pretty funny. I wonder how many DEA guys know that the pilot's
> side in a J-3 is the port side?

[David Brooks]

Easy way to remember. Take the three pairs of words:
left, right
port, starboard
red, green

The shorter words go together, and the longer words go together. You could
probably add:
pilot, passenger (or pilot, instructor)

-- David Brooks

"PJ Hunt" > wrote in message
...
> I wonder how many pilots know where the port side or the starboard side
is?
>
> Are we flying airplanes or boats?
>
> PJ
>
> =========================================
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > That's pretty funny. I wonder how many DEA guys know that the pilot's
> > side in a J-3 is the port side?
>
>

[Roger Halstead]

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:15:11 -0700, "PJ Hunt"
> wrote:

>I wonder how many pilots know where the port side or the starboard side is?

Why would any one care?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Are we flying airplanes or boats?
>
>PJ
>
>=========================================
>
>"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
>> That's pretty funny. I wonder how many DEA guys know that the pilot's
>> side in a J-3 is the port side?
>

[Cub Driver]

Well, evidently *I* didn't know, for a mad minute there.

Port and starboard are as useful on planes as on boats. Otherwise you
have to say: on the right, as seen from the pilot's seat, or some such
locution.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:15:11 -0700, "PJ Hunt"
> wrote:

>I wonder how many pilots know where the port side or the starboard side is?
>
>Are we flying airplanes or boats?
>
>PJ
>
>=========================================
>
>"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
>> That's pretty funny. I wonder how many DEA guys know that the pilot's
>> side in a J-3 is the port side?
>

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Cub Driver]

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 06:48:35 GMT, Roger Halstead
> wrote:

>Why would any one care?

Because port remains the same, whereas "left" changes depending on
whether you're inside the plane (and if inside, whether you're facing
fore or aft) or outside propping it, for example.

How many times have you noted that the prop turns left (as seen from
the pilot's seat)? The prop turns to port. (Unless you;re British, of
course :)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
wrote:

> Well, evidently *I* didn't know, for a mad minute there.
>
> Port and starboard are as useful on planes as on boats. Otherwise you
> have to say: on the right, as seen from the pilot's seat, or some such
> locution.

otoh - when logging the repair to the left main gear on my airplane
there was no "as seen from the pilot's seat, facing forward" stuff.

--
Bob Noel

[tony]

>
>>
>> Port and starboard are as useful on planes as on boats. Otherwise you
>> have to say: on the right, as seen from the pilot's seat, or some such
>> locution.
>
>otoh - when logging the repair to the left main gear on my airplane
>there was no "as seen from the pilot's seat, facing forward" stuff.
>
>--
All of which is why ATC is likely to say "at your nine o'clock position'.

But it seems to me I've also heard them say "Immediate left turn".

[Teacherjh]

>> The prop turns to port.

Well, the top of the prop maybe. The bottom goes the other way.

<g,d,r>

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> Because port remains the same, whereas "left" changes depending on
> whether you're inside the plane (and if inside, whether you're facing
> fore or aft) or outside propping it, for example.

Not to me, it doesn't. The left side of the plane is always the same side.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[Dave Buckles]

David Brooks wrote:
> Easy way to remember. Take the three pairs of words:
> left, right
> port, starboard
> red, green
>
> The shorter words go together, and the longer words go together. You could
> probably add:
> pilot, passenger (or pilot, instructor)

Alternatively:
"Red" and "Right" both start with the same letter. It would sort of
make sense for them to be the same side. Since we're dealing with the
FAA, we can't have *that* sort of logic running around, so switch 'em.

Ditto with the cruising altitudes: "east" and "even" thousands...same
letter...nah, can't be. Swap 'em.

There are a few more that can be worked out that way, but I don't
remember them offhand. Just remember: if it makes sense, it's probably
*not* done by the FAA.

--Dave

--
Dave Buckles

http://www.flight-instruction.com

[Peter Duniho]

"Dave Buckles" > wrote in message
news:AsJfc.7906$55.1601@lakeread02...
> Alternatively:
> "Red" and "Right" both start with the same letter. It would sort of
> make sense for them to be the same side. Since we're dealing with the
> FAA, we can't have *that* sort of logic running around, so switch 'em.

The FAA didn't decide on navigation lights. The red light is on the left,
because the vessel (aircraft, in this case) to the right has the right of
way. The red light shows the other vessel, to the left, that they don't
have the right of way.

Not that starting the words with the same letter is in any way a sensible
way to decide things like this anyway. Navigation lights are used on
aircraft all over the world, and probably for every language in which the
color starts with the same letter as the side, there's another language in
which the other color starts with the same letter as the side.

If blaming it on the FAA helps you to remember, I suppose that's fine. Not
all mnemonics are logical, just memorable. But don't make the mistake of
believing that it's actually the FAA's fault.

> Ditto with the cruising altitudes: "east" and "even" thousands...same
> letter...nah, can't be. Swap 'em.

I'm not sure where the cruising altitudes came from, but again, making
decisions based on coincidences of language seems wrong-headed to me.
Remembering that it's the opposite is a great way to remember which is
which, but blaming the FAA for assigned the altitudes in a way that doesn't
make sense is again illogical.

> There are a few more that can be worked out that way, but I don't
> remember them offhand.

I guess they aren't actually good mnemonics then, since the point of a
mnemonic is to help you remember something.

> Just remember: if it makes sense, it's probably
> *not* done by the FAA.

IMHO, most things the FAA does DO make sense, once you find out the true
motiviation behind the things that they do. They aren't perfect, but
neither do they deserve the rampant disdain that saying things like "if it
makes sense, it's probably *not* done by the FAA" promotes. Also IMHO, it's
only made worse when a flight instructor says stuff like that. I wonder if
you instill the same disrespect for the FAA in your students. That sort of
thing is what leads to the "anti-authority" attitude.

Pete

[Dave Stadt]

"Dave Buckles" > wrote in message
news:AsJfc.7906$55.1601@lakeread02...
> David Brooks wrote:
> > Easy way to remember. Take the three pairs of words:
> > left, right
> > port, starboard
> > red, green
> >
> > The shorter words go together, and the longer words go together. You
could
> > probably add:
> > pilot, passenger (or pilot, instructor)
>
> Alternatively:
> "Red" and "Right" both start with the same letter. It would sort of
> make sense for them to be the same side. Since we're dealing with the
> FAA, we can't have *that* sort of logic running around, so switch 'em.

"Red", "right", "returning" works. It refers to keeping the red bouys on
the right when returning to a harbor. (simplified explanation) Doesn't do
much good in an airplane but the boat people did use some logic.

[Hamish Reid]

In article >,
"Dave Stadt" > wrote:

> "Dave Buckles" > wrote in message
> news:AsJfc.7906$55.1601@lakeread02...
> > David Brooks wrote:
> > > Easy way to remember. Take the three pairs of words:
> > > left, right
> > > port, starboard
> > > red, green
> > >
> > > The shorter words go together, and the longer words go together. You
> could
> > > probably add:
> > > pilot, passenger (or pilot, instructor)
> >
> > Alternatively:
> > "Red" and "Right" both start with the same letter. It would sort of
> > make sense for them to be the same side. Since we're dealing with the
> > FAA, we can't have *that* sort of logic running around, so switch 'em.
>
> "Red", "right", "returning" works. It refers to keeping the red bouys on
> the right when returning to a harbor. (simplified explanation) Doesn't do
> much good in an airplane but the boat people did use some logic.

That only really works in Bouyage Region B, i.e. roughly the US and its
imperial dependencies :-). Doesn't do much good in the majority of the
maritime world, where keeping red bouys on the right while entering a
port or channel would be exactly the wrong thing to do.

You don't know how odd it was for me when I first sailed the Chesapeake
after a lifetime of sailing in Australia and elsewhere, where keeping
red to red is the absolute rule on entering a channel or port...

Hamish

[John Galban]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message >...
>
> "Red", "right", "returning" works. It refers to keeping the red bouys on
> the right when returning to a harbor. (simplified explanation) Doesn't do
> much good in an airplane but the boat people did use some logic.

That one works if you're talking about the lights on an airplane ahead of you.

Here are a few of my memory jogs :

Which color light is on which side - Reds are leftists.
Port and starboard - Starboard has 2 Rs, so it's on the right.
Cruising alitudes - Easterners are odd (I live in the west :-)).

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Casey Wilson]

Since we are no longer sticking to the original thread.....

If for some reason you need to tie the colors, sides, and rights-of-way
together, try this for night flying:

If on your starboard red appears,
It is your duty to keep clear.
If green to port you should see,
There's not so much for you to do
for green to port keeps clear of you.

[The true mariners amongst you will immediately recognize this is a crippled
version of the original ditty. This version is shorter and easier, I think,
to remember.]

[Dave Stadt]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
>...
> >
> > "Red", "right", "returning" works. It refers to keeping the red bouys
on
> > the right when returning to a harbor. (simplified explanation) Doesn't
do
> > much good in an airplane but the boat people did use some logic.
>
> That one works if you're talking about the lights on an airplane ahead
of you.
>
> Here are a few of my memory jogs :
>
> Which color light is on which side - Reds are leftists.
> Port and starboard - Starboard has 2 Rs, so it's on the right.
> Cruising alitudes - Easterners are odd (I live in the west :-)).
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

The important thing to remember is if you see a red light you give way.
Boats or airplanes it works.
Another jog is.....left port.....as in the boat left port.

[Robert M. Gary]

Doug Vetter > wrote in message >...

> When he saw my CFI certificate, he just remarked "oh, you're a CFI,
> eh?". "Yup" I said. I don't know if it was just me, but after that he
> seemed a bit more friendly and casual. Perhaps having a CFI certificate
> is a lot like having a PBA card when pulled over for speeding... :-)

Why did you pull out your CFI certificate when he just needed your
pilot certificate?

[Roger Halstead]

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 06:04:28 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 06:48:35 GMT, Roger Halstead
> wrote:
>
>>Why would any one care?
>
>Because port remains the same, whereas "left" changes depending on
>whether you're inside the plane (and if inside, whether you're facing
>fore or aft) or outside propping it, for example.

To me, it matters not if I'm in or out, the pilot's side is the left
side of the plane. When I look at a plane be it from front or rear
port and left are always the same for the airplane, to me.

I've been flying for many years and never new which side was port or
starboard...although it used to be larboard and starboard.

>
>How many times have you noted that the prop turns left (as seen from
>the pilot's seat)? The prop turns to port. (Unless you;re British, of
>course :)

No...It turns clockwise or counterclockwise...er...anticlockwise.

That's like the question, which rudder pedal do you push on to counter
the torque on climb out. "Which ever one makes it go straight". <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
>The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
>The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
>Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Teacherjh]

Port wine is red.

It's not how I remember it, but it might help some.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Halstead wrote:
>
> ...although it used to be larboard and starboard.

You're old enough to remember when they called it *that*? Wow!!!

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[shywon]

port, left, and red...have less letters then starboard, right, and green

Teacherjh wrote:

> Port wine is red.
>
> It's not how I remember it, but it might help some.
>
> Jose
>
>

[Rob Perkins]

Dave Buckles > wrote:

>"Red" and "Right" both start with the same letter. It would sort of
>make sense for them to be the same side. Since we're dealing with the
>FAA, we can't have *that* sort of logic running around, so switch 'em.

Consider:

You're a-flyin' along at night, and you see, ahead of you, a flashing
beacon, with solid green on the left, solid red on the right, and the
gap between the two lights is slowly growing.

Red. Right. Returning. (yeah, it doesn't quite translate to aviation,
'cause you have to think of "returning" being equal to "bearing down
on ya")

You better bank right yourself, *now*, or that guy's gonna take you
out.

Be safe out there,

Rob

[Roger Halstead]

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 16:34:43 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>Roger Halstead wrote:
>>
>> ...although it used to be larboard and starboard.

I mean "I heard" that's what *they* used to call it. I heard it, I
.... <sigh> Once said, words that can never be called back.

>
>You're old enough to remember when they called it *that*? Wow!!!

And you thought dirt was old.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>George Patterson
> This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
> play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
> a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[H. Adam Stevens]

thank you
thank you
thank you
been needing that mnemonic for DECADES!

"shywon" > wrote in message
...
> port, left, and red...have less letters then starboard, right, and green
>
> Teacherjh wrote:
>
> > Port wine is red.
> >
> > It's not how I remember it, but it might help some.
> >
> > Jose
> >
> >
>

[David Brooks]

Ummm - isn't that how I started this subthread? With the longer/shorter
observation?

About port wine - those of us who dined at the correct establishments also
knew that you pass the (red) *port* wine to the gentleman at your *left*
(there were of course no ladies present at the time). The madeira (also red
:-( ) goes to your right. There we go again: madeira is the longer word.

-- David Brooks

"H. Adam Stevens" > wrote in message
...
> thank you
> thank you
> thank you
> been needing that mnemonic for DECADES!
>
> "shywon" > wrote in message
> ...
> > port, left, and red...have less letters then starboard, right, and green
> >
> > Teacherjh wrote:
> >
> > > Port wine is red.
> > >
> > > It's not how I remember it, but it might help some.
> > >
> > > Jose
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

[shywon]

Thats the way the navy taught us in boot camp
shywon

H. Adam Stevens wrote:

> thank you
> thank you
> thank you
> been needing that mnemonic for DECADES!
>
> "shywon" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>port, left, and red...have less letters then starboard, right, and green
>>
>>Teacherjh wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Port wine is red.
>>>
>>>It's not how I remember it, but it might help some.
>>>
>>>Jose
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

[ZikZak]

On 4/16/04 1:57 PM, in article
, "John Galban"
> wrote:


> Cruising alitudes - Easterners are odd (I live in the west :-)).

I like to use: "People from California are odd" :)

[John Galban]

ZikZak > wrote in message >...
> On 4/16/04 1:57 PM, in article
> , "John Galban"
> > wrote:
>
>
> > Cruising alitudes - Easterners are odd (I live in the west :-)).
>
> I like to use: "People from California are odd" :)

While there may be some truth to that, it does absolutely nothing to
help me remember hemispherical cruising altitudes :-)

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[ZikZak]

On 4/20/04 2:45 PM, in article
, "John Galban"
> wrote:

> ZikZak > wrote in message >...
>> On 4/16/04 1:57 PM, in article
>> , "John Galban"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Cruising alitudes - Easterners are odd (I live in the west :-)).
>>
>> I like to use: "People from California are odd" :)
>
> While there may be some truth to that, it does absolutely nothing to
> help me remember hemispherical cruising altitudes :-)
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Well, if you're coming *from California*, i.e. eastbound, you should use odd
altitudes. It works pretty well for me. To each his own.

[Newps]

"ZikZak" > wrote in message
...
> On 4/16/04 1:57 PM, in article
> , "John Galban"
> > wrote:
>
>
> > Cruising alitudes - Easterners are odd (I live in the west :-)).

NEODDSWEVEN. Pronounce it like a word. All the E's are long E's.

[[email protected]]

this guy is a net troll, he's using at least (6) other usernames,
killfile him ASAP, below is his posting history

http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?enc_author=aLo_UhMAAACqeZKH24Ly4UNtt449SfjF WMj6vob75xS36mXc24h6ww


see the link above, he is using
at least (10) other usernames on Usenet, they include


MARCO R
ROBERT J. KOLKER
ROBERT MORIEN
NEWPS
ASK A DIFFERENT
ROBERT KOLKER
EARL KIOSTERUD
therefore, he has no credibility- merely another net troll