Flight plan when crossing the boarder

[Robert M. Gary]

Does anyone know the actual reason you're required to file a flight
plan when crossing the boarding between the U.S. and Canada? Does
someone sit down at the end of the year and try to count operations
based on them? They carry NO customs benefit since customs are handled
separately.

Usually, when we fly south into Mexico, we don't both filing since the
U.S. has no way to actually hand the flight plan to Mexico. Most of
the Mexico AOI don't even have working phones, much less computers.
However, they are always happy to see you arrive at any time. Of
course crossing the ADIZ northbound from Mexico is a different thing
all together.

-Robert

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (Robert M. Gary) said:
>Does anyone know the actual reason you're required to file a flight
>plan when crossing the boarding between the U.S. and Canada? Does

Because if you don't, they'll send a pair of F-16s out to check you out.
And then, if they decide not to shoot you down, they send you a bill for
the fuel the F-16s used. You don't want that. :-)

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
My family's values included "Always state your assumptions and your evidence",
"first find out what the problem is, then fix it", and "feed your horse before
yourself". But you don't see people legislating those... -- Zeebee

[Andrew Sarangan]

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in news:ccaeba$uvt$1
@allhats.xcski.com:

> In a previous article, (Robert M. Gary) said:
>>Does anyone know the actual reason you're required to file a flight
>>plan when crossing the boarding between the U.S. and Canada? Does
>
> Because if you don't, they'll send a pair of F-16s out to check you out.
> And then, if they decide not to shoot you down, they send you a bill for
> the fuel the F-16s used. You don't want that. :-)
>

What happens if you overfly Canada, but not land? Do you need to file a
flight plan for that too? Admittedly, the only times I have done that were
under IFR, but I don't see why VFR aircraft would be any different.

[Julian Scarfe]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> Does anyone know the actual reason you're required to file a flight
> plan when crossing the boarding between the U.S. and Canada? Does
> someone sit down at the end of the year and try to count operations
> based on them? They carry NO customs benefit since customs are handled
> separately.

Filing a flight plan when crossing an international border is an ICAO
requirement. Of course that doesn't explain why the requirement hasn't been
waived for convenience between the US and Canada, as have many other
requirements that are standard for international stuff. But it does mean
that it would be a question of overriding the default, which may take
unanimity between diverse Canadian departments. Maybe some of them have
access to Google? :-) http://www.invadecanada.us/

Julian Scarfe

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Andrew Sarangan > said:
>What happens if you overfly Canada, but not land? Do you need to file a
>flight plan for that too? Admittedly, the only times I have done that were
>under IFR, but I don't see why VFR aircraft would be any different.

Yes, you do.

It's even supposed to be helpful if you put "OVERFLIGHT" in the remarks
section, don't know if that's true.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
We are not gentle tolerant people. We like drastically effective solutions.
-- Steve VanDevender

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Julian Scarfe" > said:
>requirements that are standard for international stuff. But it does mean
>that it would be a question of overriding the default, which may take
>unanimity between diverse Canadian departments. Maybe some of them have
>access to Google? :-) http://www.invadecanada.us/

How do you know it's Canada that's being intransegent? Look at how much
better CANPASS is than GATE, and you can see that it's the US that is
scared to let their guard down even a little.

Besides:
http://cwd.ptbcanadian.com/



--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
You really know you're in trouble when your boss decides upon a suicide
pact... and agrees to go first.
-- Chris King

[Andrew Sarangan]

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in
:

> In a previous article, Andrew Sarangan > said:
>>What happens if you overfly Canada, but not land? Do you need to file
>>a flight plan for that too? Admittedly, the only times I have done
>>that were under IFR, but I don't see why VFR aircraft would be any
>>different.
>
> Yes, you do.
>
> It's even supposed to be helpful if you put "OVERFLIGHT" in the
> remarks section, don't know if that's true.
>

I thought you only had to file if you were more than 25 miles in Canada?

[Robert M. Gary]

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in message >...
> In a previous article, (Robert M. Gary) said:
> >Does anyone know the actual reason you're required to file a flight
> >plan when crossing the boarding between the U.S. and Canada? Does
>
> Because if you don't, they'll send a pair of F-16s out to check you out.
> And then, if they decide not to shoot you down, they send you a bill for
> the fuel the F-16s used. You don't want that. :-)

That just doesn't make any sense though. If you are talking to ATC,
they would just ask you what you are doing. Remember though, there is
no ADIZ between Canada and the U.S. If you decide not to talk to ATC
as you cross you wouldn't have a transponder code so they can't tell
the difference between the planes that have filed and those that have
not. They all just look like dots on the radar. How would they know
the difference? When you cross the ADIZ (like from Mexico), you get
your own code and everything, its very different.

-Robert

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (Robert M. Gary) said:
(Paul Tomblin) wrote in message
>...
>> In a previous article, (Robert M. Gary) said:
>> >Does anyone know the actual reason you're required to file a flight
>> >plan when crossing the boarding between the U.S. and Canada? Does
>>
>> Because if you don't, they'll send a pair of F-16s out to check you out.
>> And then, if they decide not to shoot you down, they send you a bill for
>> the fuel the F-16s used. You don't want that. :-)
>
>That just doesn't make any sense though. If you are talking to ATC,
>they would just ask you what you are doing. Remember though, there is
>no ADIZ between Canada and the U.S. If you decide not to talk to ATC
>as you cross you wouldn't have a transponder code so they can't tell
>the difference between the planes that have filed and those that have
>not. They all just look like dots on the radar. How would they know

Since 9/11, aircraft crossing the border are required to be on a flight
plan AND in communication with ATC, either VFR Flight Following or IFR.
When flying across southern Ontario talking to Toronto Center, I was
continually hearing Canadian pilots calling up near the border to get
flight following across the border. That's in contrast to American
pilots, who seem to get flight following the whole way there.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
A bleeding heart can be hell on the carpeting.

[Robert M. Gary]

Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message >...
> (Paul Tomblin) wrote in
> :
>

> I thought you only had to file if you were more than 25 miles in Canada?


In addition, you also have to file anytime you cross a border.

[Andrew Sarangan]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in
om:

> Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message
> >...
>> (Paul Tomblin) wrote in
>> :
>>
>
>> I thought you only had to file if you were more than 25 miles in
>> Canada?
>
>
> In addition, you also have to file anytime you cross a border.

Is this a US requirement (FAR) or a Canadian requirement (CAR)? I looked in
the FAR but could not find any reference to it except FAR part 99 which
only applies to flights into ADIZ.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 05 Jul 2004 22:08:09 GMT, Andrew Sarangan >
wrote:

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in
om:
>
>> Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message
>> >...
>>> (Paul Tomblin) wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>
>>> I thought you only had to file if you were more than 25 miles in
>>> Canada?
>>
>>
>> In addition, you also have to file anytime you cross a border.
>
>Is this a US requirement (FAR) or a Canadian requirement (CAR)? I looked in
>the FAR but could not find any reference to it except FAR part 99 which
>only applies to flights into ADIZ.

It is listed in my Jepp published Canadian Entry requirements supplement.
It is also published in the Canadian section of the DOT/FAA International
Flight Information Manual. The latter is available online at
http://www.faa.gov/ats/aat/ifim/ifimcaai.htm and also
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/travel/canada/canifim.html


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Buff5200]

The flight plan helps Customs distinguish between legitimate flights,
and those
attempting to illegally smuggle French Canadians south across the boarder.

Canada has for many years now been engaged in a covert campaign to export
their "French Problem" south to the US. Thru false bottom trucks, small
boats
across the rivers, and aircraft under radar, Canada is attempting to
remove the
French Canadians and smuggle them into the French speaking neighborhoods of
Louisiana, NYC and Washington.

The US had originally intended to send the illegal French Canadian
Ouetbacks to
Guantanimo. But those plans had been canceled when Al-Queida prisoners
said they
would rather have electrical wires attached to their genitals than share
a cell with the
French.

Robert M. Gary wrote:

>Does anyone know the actual reason you're required to file a flight
>plan when crossing the boarding between the U.S. and Canada? Does
>someone sit down at the end of the year and try to count operations
>based on them? They carry NO customs benefit since customs are handled
>separately.
>
>Usually, when we fly south into Mexico, we don't both filing since the
>U.S. has no way to actually hand the flight plan to Mexico. Most of
>the Mexico AOI don't even have working phones, much less computers.
>However, they are always happy to see you arrive at any time. Of
>course crossing the ADIZ northbound from Mexico is a different thing
>all together.
>
>-Robert
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message >...
> (Robert M. Gary) wrote in
> om:

> Is this a US requirement (FAR) or a Canadian requirement (CAR)? I looked in
> the FAR but could not find any reference to it except FAR part 99 which
> only applies to flights into ADIZ.

In truth, I don't know. I know that the AOPA guides for boarder
crossing refer to it as a "reguirement". However, I don't know what
law it comes from. When going South into Mexico (which is not really
an ADIZ crossing) it is said that filing alerts the commander of the
airport that you are arriving. Of course, anyone who has been to
Mexico would laugh at that. For Canada, CAN-PASS already knows you're
coming.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in message >...
> Since 9/11, aircraft crossing the border are required to be on a flight
> plan AND in communication with ATC, either VFR Flight Following or IFR.
> When flying across southern Ontario talking to Toronto Center, I was
> continually hearing Canadian pilots calling up near the border to get
> flight following across the border. That's in contrast to American
> pilots, who seem to get flight following the whole way there.

I guess some parts of Canada are just too remote to get Flight
Following from. I know that pilots somewhat regularly cross into the
U.S. from Mexico without radios or transponders (since 9/11) but you
have to prearrange the crossing location and exact time. The last time
I was down in Mexico I ran into an airplane recovery guy who picks up
wrecked airplanes and flys them back to the insurance co. Sometimes
they end up as "green" airplanes (no radios).

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> Since 9/11, aircraft crossing the border are required to be on a flight
> plan AND in communication with ATC, either VFR Flight Following or IFR.
> When flying across southern Ontario talking to Toronto Center, I was
> continually hearing Canadian pilots calling up near the border to get
> flight following across the border. That's in contrast to American
> pilots, who seem to get flight following the whole way there.

I know this to not be the case when entering the U.S. from Mexico but
perhaps that's just because you have a transponder code. We usually
are not talking to ATC when we cross back into the U.S. but we have a
DVFR open.

I was pretty happy with how easy the handoff was into Canada. When I
entered Canada I was VFR. It wasn't really a handoff but I was allowed
to keep my transponder code and the Canadian controller expected me
(the U.S. controller said FF canceled, remain this code, contact
Victoria). Southbound I was IFR (and IMC) and you couldn't tell the
difference other than the use of the phrase "decimal" rather than
"point" when giving freq's.
Landing at Vancouver Int'l was really a piece of cake. The controllers
were very friendly when I told them I didn't know any of the locations
they were talking about (I never saw any "coal mines", etc on the
charts).
-robert

[Kees Mies]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in message >...
> Does anyone know the actual reason you're required to file a flight
> plan when crossing the boarding between the U.S. and Canada? Does
> someone sit down at the end of the year and try to count operations
> based on them? They carry NO customs benefit since customs are handled
> separately.
>
> Usually, when we fly south into Mexico, we don't both filing since the
> U.S. has no way to actually hand the flight plan to Mexico. Most of
> the Mexico AOI don't even have working phones, much less computers.
> However, they are always happy to see you arrive at any time. Of
> course crossing the ADIZ northbound from Mexico is a different thing
> all together.
>
> -Robert


Hi Robert,

I do not have the slightest idea why one has to file a flight plan for
border crossings.
You Americans are lucky, you can fly for hours in nearly any direction
before crossing a border.
Try Europe for a change.
Every country has its own rules for VFR flight plans, really
confusing.

And what they do with all these flight plans, I do not know.
I suppose it is meant to keep the un-employment figures low.

-Kees

[Peter Duniho]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> In truth, I don't know. I know that the AOPA guides for boarder
> crossing [...]

Okay, I can't stand it any longer.

Robert...please, it's "border". No "a".

Thanks,
Pete

[Peter Duniho]

Oops...sorry. That was supposed to be email. Oh well...

[Andrew Sarangan]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in
om:

> Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message
> >...
>> (Robert M. Gary) wrote in
>> om:
>
>> Is this a US requirement (FAR) or a Canadian requirement (CAR)? I
>> looked in the FAR but could not find any reference to it except FAR
>> part 99 which only applies to flights into ADIZ.
>
> In truth, I don't know. I know that the AOPA guides for boarder
> crossing refer to it as a "reguirement". However, I don't know what
> law it comes from. When going South into Mexico (which is not really
> an ADIZ crossing) it is said that filing alerts the commander of the
> airport that you are arriving. Of course, anyone who has been to
> Mexico would laugh at that. For Canada, CAN-PASS already knows you're
> coming.
>
> -Robert


Crossing into Mexico is not an ADIZ crossing??

[Gary Drescher]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> om...
> > In truth, I don't know. I know that the AOPA guides for boarder
> > crossing [...]
>
> Okay, I can't stand it any longer.
>
> Robert...please, it's "border". No "a".

It's possible to cross a boarder, though he may not be happy about it. :)

--Gary

[Jim Weir]

I've never crossed a boarder. Gets the boarder madder than hell, don'cha know.

{;-)


Jim



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> Okay, I can't stand it any longer.

Thank you!

George Patterson
In Idaho, tossing a rattlesnake into a crowded room is felony assault.
In Tennessee, it's evangelism.

[S Green]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> Does anyone know the actual reason you're required to file a flight
> plan when crossing the boarding between the U.S. and Canada? Does
> someone sit down at the end of the year and try to count operations
> based on them? They carry NO customs benefit since customs are handled
> separately.
>
> Usually, when we fly south into Mexico, we don't both filing since the
> U.S. has no way to actually hand the flight plan to Mexico. Most of
> the Mexico AOI don't even have working phones, much less computers.
> However, they are always happy to see you arrive at any time. Of
> course crossing the ADIZ northbound from Mexico is a different thing
> all together.

ICAO regulations.

Flying round Europe, you need to file a flight plan even though there are no
border controls between many of the countries. (Schengen States)

[Vigo]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message
>...
> > (Paul Tomblin) wrote in
> > :
> >
>
> > I thought you only had to file if you were more than 25 miles in Canada?
>
>
> In addition, you also have to file anytime you cross a border.

if you go more than 25 miles you can file or use a flight itinarary

[Kees Mies]

"S Green" > wrote in message >...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Does anyone know the actual reason you're required to file a flight
> > plan when crossing the boarding between the U.S. and Canada? Does
> > someone sit down at the end of the year and try to count operations
> > based on them? They carry NO customs benefit since customs are handled
> > separately.
> >
> > Usually, when we fly south into Mexico, we don't both filing since the
> > U.S. has no way to actually hand the flight plan to Mexico. Most of
> > the Mexico AOI don't even have working phones, much less computers.
> > However, they are always happy to see you arrive at any time. Of
> > course crossing the ADIZ northbound from Mexico is a different thing
> > all together.
>
> ICAO regulations.
>
> Flying round Europe, you need to file a flight plan even though there are no
> border controls between many of the countries. (Schengen States)

Not completely true.
Some states do not require a VFR flight plan to cross their borders.
If memory serves well Germany and Austria are such states.
So, when you fly from Holland to Germany you have to file a flight
plan be
cause it is in the Dutch regulations but Germany does not require it,
except....
It is possible to fly from Holland to Germany without flight plan if
you take of from Teuge and land at Aachen for example.
There are some more airport combinations that you can choose from.
I don't bother, I file flights plans when crossing borders anyway.
Which leads to another topic, how to file flight plans in other
countries or get meteo or notams. This is where the fun starts.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 01:16:02 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

>Oops...sorry. That was supposed to be email. Oh well...
>


Shouldn't that be 'e-mail'? :-)

[Peter Duniho]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> >Oops...sorry. That was supposed to be email. Oh well...
>
> Shouldn't that be 'e-mail'? :-)

Either is correct.


"e-mail or e·mail also E-mail (ml)
n.
1.. A system for sending and receiving messages electronically over a
computer network, as between personal computers.
2.. A message or messages sent or received by such a system. "