Scud running fatal in Maine

[Roger Long]

This accident was up our way and I followed the progress of the search. On
the basis of the weather on the day the plane disappeared, I expected to
find that it was a new pilot in over her head. Just goes to show that lots
of experience and type ratings don't make scud running a good idea. 14,500
hour big iron driver with 20 years in float planes who could have filed and
executed an IFR flight plan in her sleep hits a hill in 700 foot ceilings.

Another high time Mainer who could have been IFR up above the hills did the
same thing a few years back and set a great example for the Air Explorers
Troop he founded. They are naming a new Boy Scout center near PWM after
him.

http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040818X01248&key=1

--

Roger Long

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Long wrote:
>
> [A] 14,500
> hour big iron driver with 20 years in float planes who could have filed and
> executed an IFR flight plan in her sleep hits a hill in 700 foot ceilings.

I didn't know they have instrument approaches to lakes.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[zatatime]

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:30:00 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>I didn't know they have instrument approaches to lakes.


If I recall correctly the Seattle area has some (a couple). Not sure
if its on the US or Canadian side though.

z

[H.P.]

What drives a pilot with her skills to be so...assaholic?


"Roger Long" > wrote in message
.. .
> This accident was up our way and I followed the progress of the search.
On
> the basis of the weather on the day the plane disappeared, I expected to
> find that it was a new pilot in over her head. Just goes to show that
lots
> of experience and type ratings don't make scud running a good idea.
14,500
> hour big iron driver with 20 years in float planes who could have filed
and
> executed an IFR flight plan in her sleep hits a hill in 700 foot ceilings.
>
> Another high time Mainer who could have been IFR up above the hills did
the
> same thing a few years back and set a great example for the Air Explorers
> Troop he founded. They are naming a new Boy Scout center near PWM after
> him.
>
> http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20040818X01248&key=1
>
> --
>
> Roger Long
>
>
>
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> >I didn't know they have instrument approaches to lakes.
>
>
> If I recall correctly the Seattle area has some (a couple). Not sure
> if its on the US or Canadian side though.

Sort of. There are no instrument approaches to waterways per se, but we
have several seaplane bases close enough to airports with instrument
approaches that for all intents and purposes, they might as well have
instrument approaches.

Non-precision, of course, but that's almost always good enough.

One is at Renton, WA where seaplanes can taxi right up to the airport and
get a dolly out of the water. Another is at Lake Union...an instrument
approach into Boeing Field will get you down low enough to "circle to land"
on Lake Union (which is adjacent to the north end of the Seattle downtown
area).

Heck, a really determined pilot could fly the approach to Renton, and then
taxi the entire length of the lake all the way up to Kenmore. I forget what
the width of the under-bridge passage is, so maybe they'd have to fly 100'
off the water, but that'd be no big deal in a seaplane.

Similar things apply in the Victoria and Vancouver area, as well as many
other major seaplane destinations in the PNW.

Same thing probably applies at at least one airport near a landable waterway
in the general vicinity of the reported accident in Maine.

Coincidentally, we just had a scud-running accident here in the Northwest,
not too far from Vancouver, WA (across the river from Portland). Amazingly
enough, three out of four survived.

Pete

[Paul Sengupta]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> Heck, a really determined pilot could fly the approach to Renton, and then
> taxi the entire length of the lake all the way up to Kenmore. I forget
what
> the width of the under-bridge passage is, so maybe they'd have to fly 100'
> off the water, but that'd be no big deal in a seaplane.

100' over a bridge? Any idea how the FAA/UK CAA define "while taking
off or landing"? If you're in the process of landing, just making a very
shallow
approach, could you still be prosecuted for low flying?!

Paul

[Roger Long]

They don't in Maine. I was just pointing out that all that IFR skill
doesn't change the low level VFR in IMC equation.

Her option would have been to wait for better weather or climb and file pop
up for diversion to an airport with an approach if things were lower than
she thought. Of course, that could have meant revealing that she set off on
a less than legal VFR flight which might have had repercussions for her
employment. Perhaps she was subject to pressures a non-professional pilot
wouldn't have been.

The other Maine scud runner was on a flight from an approach to an approach.
He hit a treeless, snow covered hill that probably looked just like the mist
he was flying under.

--

Roger Long



"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Roger Long wrote:
> >
> > [A] 14,500
> > hour big iron driver with 20 years in float planes who could have filed
and
> > executed an IFR flight plan in her sleep hits a hill in 700 foot
ceilings.
>
> I didn't know they have instrument approaches to lakes.
>
> George Patterson
> If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
> he gives it to.

[Gary Drescher]

"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
> Of course, that could have meant revealing that she set off on
> a less than legal VFR flight

The flight may have been unwise, but wasn't the weather (as reported at MLT)
legal for daytime VFR in Class G as long as she stayed below the 700'
ceiling?

--Gary

[Ace Pilot]

This is the kind of accident that scares me the most. As someone
posted earlier, you'd expect a rookie pilot to get sucked into this
kind of accident, but not someone with the experience this pilot had.
Leaves me wondering if there are weather conditions out there that can
be misleading to experienced pilots, which means someone with less
experience (like me) wouldn't stand a chance of recognizing the risk
in a timely fashion.

Some details on the accident that I've picked up through various
media. The pilot and her husband owned KT Aviation, a seaplane
instruction and charter business in Maine. Both were pilots for
airlines when they started the business, but the husband's airline
went out of business allowing him to devote more time to KT Aviation.
Reports I've read said the fatal flight was enroute to pick up
charterers. A magazine article from more than a year ago said the
business was trying to expand the charter side of the operation since
that revenue source tended to be more reliable than seaplane
instruction.

[Jay Honeck]

> This is the kind of accident that scares me the most. As someone
> posted earlier, you'd expect a rookie pilot to get sucked into this
> kind of accident, but not someone with the experience this pilot had.
> Leaves me wondering if there are weather conditions out there that can
> be misleading to experienced pilots

Well said. I've often wondered how pilots get themselves into this sort of
thing.

Is the problem a gradual lowering of the ceiling as they drone along,
oblivious to the growing danger? Is there a weather phenomenon that I've
never experienced that can slam the sunroof shut quickly -- faster than a
pilot can get on the ground? (I've seen fog envelop an airport in minutes,
going from CAVU to 1/10th mile visibility almost instantly -- but that fog
was rolling in off a lake, and could have been easily out-run.)

Is it just old-fashioned "get-there-itis," an internal pressure that they
"must" get there for some reason? Or is it that they've "seen this a
thousand times" and always made it through before, so why should today be
any different?

I know as my flying hours have built, I've grown more comfortable with a
wider range of weather conditions. Is this "experience"? Or
"familiarity"? Or an insidious, gradual and foolish lowering of my
instinctive defenses?

Accidents like hers make you sit up and take notice.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roger Long]

Oh right, I forgot that she would have been starting off in Class G. I'm
used to thinking about what I need to get out of our Class C.

--

Roger Long



"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:Xb%Wc.312020$%_6.145966@attbi_s01...
> "Roger Long" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Of course, that could have meant revealing that she set off on
> > a less than legal VFR flight
>
> The flight may have been unwise, but wasn't the weather (as reported at
MLT)
> legal for daytime VFR in Class G as long as she stayed below the 700'
> ceiling?
>
> --Gary
>
>

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:48:36 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

<snip>

>Coincidentally, we just had a scud-running accident here in the Northwest,
>not too far from Vancouver, WA (across the river from Portland). Amazingly
>enough, three out of four survived.
>
>Pete

We headed home to the Seattle area from same fly-in (McMinnville, OR)
a couple hours before the accident aircraft. The front was moving
east at 15 knots, so it didn't take long for the "door to get closed".

Several other friends left McMinnville about the same time as the
accident aircraft, and they couldn't get any further north than
Scappoose, so they landed, borrowed the airport car and got a hotel.

Bela P. Havasreti

[Roger Long]

I've often wondered, usually while driving over the hills on the Mass
turnpike and sort of mentally flying myself through them, if the overcast
can fool you into thinking you are looking at the top of the hill when it's
actually in the clouds. A pilot might even pull up into the clouds for a
little extra clearance and plan to ease down on the other side. I've seen
lots of overcast up close in the hills that I could easily see suckering you
into a hill top; especially making decisions at twice automotive speed.

--

Roger Long



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:0E0Xc.57436$Fg5.30391@attbi_s53...
> > This is the kind of accident that scares me the most. As someone
> > posted earlier, you'd expect a rookie pilot to get sucked into this
> > kind of accident, but not someone with the experience this pilot had.
> > Leaves me wondering if there are weather conditions out there that can
> > be misleading to experienced pilots
>
> Well said. I've often wondered how pilots get themselves into this sort
of
> thing.
>
> Is the problem a gradual lowering of the ceiling as they drone along,
> oblivious to the growing danger? Is there a weather phenomenon that I've
> never experienced that can slam the sunroof shut quickly -- faster than a
> pilot can get on the ground? (I've seen fog envelop an airport in
minutes,
> going from CAVU to 1/10th mile visibility almost instantly -- but that fog
> was rolling in off a lake, and could have been easily out-run.)
>
> Is it just old-fashioned "get-there-itis," an internal pressure that they
> "must" get there for some reason? Or is it that they've "seen this a
> thousand times" and always made it through before, so why should today be
> any different?
>
> I know as my flying hours have built, I've grown more comfortable with a
> wider range of weather conditions. Is this "experience"? Or
> "familiarity"? Or an insidious, gradual and foolish lowering of my
> instinctive defenses?
>
> Accidents like hers make you sit up and take notice.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
> 100' over a bridge? Any idea how the FAA/UK CAA define "while taking
> off or landing"? If you're in the process of landing, just making a very
> shallow approach, could you still be prosecuted for low flying?!

The part you'd fly over is a floating bridge, probably only 30-40' off the
water. In any case, even 500' would be sufficient, if you don't buy the
idea that an airplane transitioning from an instrument approach to its
destination is landing.

Pete

[David Brooks]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "zatatime" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >I didn't know they have instrument approaches to lakes.
> >
> >
> > If I recall correctly the Seattle area has some (a couple). Not sure
> > if its on the US or Canadian side though.
>
> Sort of. There are no instrument approaches to waterways per se, but we
> have several seaplane bases close enough to airports with instrument
> approaches that for all intents and purposes, they might as well have
> instrument approaches.
>
> Non-precision, of course, but that's almost always good enough.

Felts Field in Spokane is designated to have three runways, one of which is
3W/21W. The nonprecision approaches don't forbid circling, so that says to
me this is a waterway with an instrument approach.

Hmmm.. however circling is not allowed to the northwest. Is the waterway NW
or SE of the hard-top? Don't know.

-- David Brooks

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
[snip]
> I know as my flying hours have built, I've grown more
> comfortable with a wider range of weather conditions.
> Is this "experience"? Or "familiarity"? Or an insidious,
> gradual and foolish lowering of my instinctive defenses?

I've noticed the same thing. The longer I go without getting in real
trouble, the less I am bothered by gnarly weather, particularly now that
I've got a way to keep a distant eye on it in flight.

We often read posts from pilots who think GA fatal accident statistics don't
apply to them because they would *never* do some of the "stupid" things
described in the NTSB reports. I bet if we had known a lot of those
"stupid" pilots, we'd realize that most were no dumber than the rest of us.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Maule Driver]

This kind of accident seems a little too easy to fall into as soon as you
find yourself:
- Scud running (pick your definition)
- In non-flat terrain (remember manmade obstructions)
- in terrain that isn't as familiar as the back of your hand (catch-22 here)
- With a commitment at the other end (see get-home-itis)

Float planes sometimes rely on numerous landing areas - makes risky flights
even more attractive.

This pilot's experience could be described as mostly flying a/c and missions
that most weather can't stop. Perhaps a little confusion was experienced
vis-a-vis VFR light a/c work.

I would submit that IFR is the way to avoid scud running and the terrain.
This flight obviously could not be made IFR.

But everytime one does a VFR scud run to a destination that has an approach
or can be accessed by an approach, one is taking more risk than they need
to.

Don't you think?

"Roger Long" > wrote in message
.. .
> I've often wondered, usually while driving over the hills on the Mass
> turnpike and sort of mentally flying myself through them, if the overcast
> can fool you into thinking you are looking at the top of the hill when
it's
> actually in the clouds. A pilot might even pull up into the clouds for a
> little extra clearance and plan to ease down on the other side. I've seen
> lots of overcast up close in the hills that I could easily see suckering
you
> into a hill top; especially making decisions at twice automotive speed.
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:0E0Xc.57436$Fg5.30391@attbi_s53...
> > > This is the kind of accident that scares me the most. As someone
> > > posted earlier, you'd expect a rookie pilot to get sucked into this
> > > kind of accident, but not someone with the experience this pilot had.
> > > Leaves me wondering if there are weather conditions out there that can
> > > be misleading to experienced pilots
> >
> > Well said. I've often wondered how pilots get themselves into this sort
> of
> > thing.
> >
> > Is the problem a gradual lowering of the ceiling as they drone along,
> > oblivious to the growing danger? Is there a weather phenomenon that
I've
> > never experienced that can slam the sunroof shut quickly -- faster than
a
> > pilot can get on the ground? (I've seen fog envelop an airport in
> minutes,
> > going from CAVU to 1/10th mile visibility almost instantly -- but that
fog
> > was rolling in off a lake, and could have been easily out-run.)
> >
> > Is it just old-fashioned "get-there-itis," an internal pressure that
they
> > "must" get there for some reason? Or is it that they've "seen this a
> > thousand times" and always made it through before, so why should today
be
> > any different?
> >
> > I know as my flying hours have built, I've grown more comfortable with a
> > wider range of weather conditions. Is this "experience"? Or
> > "familiarity"? Or an insidious, gradual and foolish lowering of my
> > instinctive defenses?
> >
> > Accidents like hers make you sit up and take notice.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> >
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Long wrote:
>
> Her option would have been to wait for better weather or climb and file pop
> up for diversion to an airport with an approach if things were lower than
> she thought.

How would she divert to an airport if she's got straight floats? There are seaplane
bases with approaches in the area?

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dan Luke wrote:
>
> I've noticed the same thing. The longer I go without getting in real
> trouble, the less I am bothered by gnarly weather, particularly now that
> I've got a way to keep a distant eye on it in flight.

On the other hand, I find that the longer it's been since I've flown in borderline
conditions, the higher my weather standards get.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
G.R. Patterson III > wrote:
>
>How would she divert to an airport if she's got straight floats?

Landing on a hard surface on straight floats sure sounds preferable
to what happened...

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Roger Long]

Here's a good article on the subject.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182679-1.html

--
Roger Long

[Roger Long]

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:7x8Xc.68953$mD.5233@attbi_s02...
> >How would she divert to an airport if she's got straight floats?
>
> Landing on a hard surface on straight floats sure sounds preferable
> to what happened...


I saw on the news last year that an amphibian had landed wheels up and close
the airport briefly until it could be towed away. I looked at our tiedown
neighbor's floats to see if it had been him but everything looked OK.
Turned out that it was him! The keels on his floats were a quarter inch
narrower than they had been before but it was no big deal.

--

Roger Long

[Jim Rosinski]

(Ace Pilot) wrote

> This is the kind of accident that scares me the most. As someone
> posted earlier, you'd expect a rookie pilot to get sucked into this
> kind of accident, but not someone with the experience this pilot had.
> Leaves me wondering if there are weather conditions out there that can
> be misleading to experienced pilots, which means someone with less
> experience (like me) wouldn't stand a chance of recognizing the risk
> in a timely fashion.

I flew with Kathy (the pilot who was killed) last year while visiting
relatives in Maine. I was doing brush-up work for my seaplane rating,
and treating the relatives to some flight-seeing. She was an
extremely competent and skilled pilot. There have been numerous
articles about the accident in the Bangor Daily News, which my sister
has been keeping me abreast of. Some are available at
www.bangordailynews.com but for complete text they ask you to pay.
The most recent info is that the engine was generating power at the
time of impact.

With 12 hours of logged time as a seaplane pilot I hardly qualify as
an expert. But to amplify on Ace Pilot's comments, it doesn't make
sense that a veteran seaplane pilot would plow into a mountainside
even in bad weather, considering that emergency landing strips (lakes,
rivers) are everywhere in that area. Speculation, but some of the
explanation may lie in the common bush pilot's ethic that come hell or
high water, they *will* be there to pick you up when they said they
would (Kathy was on a charter pickup).

Kathy's husband Tim is an equally skilled pilot and decent human
being. He was the examiner when I got my seaplane rating with KT
Aviation 2 years ago (the KT is for Kathy and Tim). We sent him a
copy of a video we made during last year's flight with Kathy. Don't
know what's going to happen to KT Aviation, but I'm not optimistic.
It was just the 2 of them and maybe a part-time instructor in the
summer. My heart goes out to Tim.

Jim Rosinski
N3825Q

[Roger Long]

I think what this accident shows us is that the highest levels of competence
are not sufficient to keep low under the scud from being one of the most
dangerous places you can be in an airplane. Whether the risk is justified
is another question that depends on the mission and who is in the airplane.

You are right about the bush pilot ethic. A friend of mine did fishing camp
flying in Alaska. The Microsoft type high rollers would come up from
Seattle for a day or two of fishing and the idea that a little weather would
send them home without getting their lines wet was never even considered.
Many times, he would fall into bed with his clothes on at midnight and lie
there shaking from the adrenaline until 4:30 when he would get up and do it
all over again. After a few months, he came back to this world and gave up
flying.

--

Roger Long

[C Kingsbury]

"Roger Long" > wrote in message >...

> You are right about the bush pilot ethic.

I got my ASES at Alaska Float Ratings on the Kenai peninsula, which
also does a moderate amount of part 135 charter ops in the area with 3
floatplanes and 2 landplanes. The owner is a 30+ year bush pilot with
>20k hours, most of it on floats up North. Suffice it to say that
while I was there for 4 days, there were probably 2 or 3 charter
flights to fishing lodges that either didn't take off, or turned back
on the way, including ones he flew himself. These were familiar routes
they flew sometimes a dozen times a day every day of the season for
over ten years. "I've never lost a plane, and no pilot I've trained
has ever died up here," he told me. True or not I could see that
unless Little Nell was waiting for her medicine on the other side,
there were plenty of flights they weren't going to push their limits
to make.

-cwk.

[Roger Long]

I'm glad to here that there are outfits with sense up there. My friend's is
the only first hand report I've ever gotten about that way of life.

Standards probably vary widely up there, just as they do here. It may also
be easier for an established operation to maintain a good attitude than one
just starting out.

I'll make a note of their name in case I ever want to do any flying in AK.

--

Roger Long



"C Kingsbury" > wrote in message
om...
> "Roger Long" > wrote in message
>...
>
> > You are right about the bush pilot ethic.
>
> I got my ASES at Alaska Float Ratings on the Kenai peninsula, which
> also does a moderate amount of part 135 charter ops in the area with 3
> floatplanes and 2 landplanes. The owner is a 30+ year bush pilot with
> >20k hours, most of it on floats up North. Suffice it to say that
> while I was there for 4 days, there were probably 2 or 3 charter
> flights to fishing lodges that either didn't take off, or turned back
> on the way, including ones he flew himself. These were familiar routes
> they flew sometimes a dozen times a day every day of the season for
> over ten years. "I've never lost a plane, and no pilot I've trained
> has ever died up here," he told me. True or not I could see that
> unless Little Nell was waiting for her medicine on the other side,
> there were plenty of flights they weren't going to push their limits
> to make.
>
> -cwk.