circumnavigating Chicago Class B

[Neil Bratney]

Hey all,

I'm looking at flying my PA 28-161 VFR from Minneapolis to South Bend,
Indiana, in a few weeks for a Notre Dame football game (go irish!). Two
big things, of course, stand in my way: Lake Michigan and the Chicago
Class B airspace.

I've looked at the Chicago Terminal Chart, and have come up with two
possibilities:

1.) Aim for the OBK VOR, then skirt under Class Bravo at 2,900, and hug
the lakeshore all the way around to South Bend.

2.) Take 'er up to 11,500 in southcentral Wisconsin, go above the Class
B airspace. I've never been up that high before! This might let me cut
a little deeper across Lake Michigan.

3.) Accept a transition through Class B from ATC.

I'm a pretty new VFR pilot (you might remember my Duluth post) with
about 80 hrs... but am very comfortable communicating with ATC in /
around MSP Class B airspace.

I will, as always, have VFR flight following. Will ATC be expecting me
to choose one of the above options when I approach Chicagoland? How
much ATC interaction should I expect while I'm over / under their
airspace? Maybe just handoffs?

Also, Meigs Class D is still on the chart. Is it really still in
effect/operation?

Thanks a ton!

Neil Bratney
PP-ASEL

[tony zambon]

"Neil Bratney" > wrote in message
...
> Hey all,
>
> I'm looking at flying my PA 28-161 VFR from Minneapolis to South Bend,
> Indiana, in a few weeks for a Notre Dame football game (go irish!). Two
> big things, of course, stand in my way: Lake Michigan and the Chicago
> Class B airspace.
>
> I've looked at the Chicago Terminal Chart, and have come up with two
> possibilities:
>
> 1.) Aim for the OBK VOR, then skirt under Class Bravo at 2,900, and hug
> the lakeshore all the way around to South Bend.
>
> 2.) Take 'er up to 11,500 in southcentral Wisconsin, go above the Class
> B airspace. I've never been up that high before! This might let me cut
> a little deeper across Lake Michigan.
>
> 3.) Accept a transition through Class B from ATC.
>
> I'm a pretty new VFR pilot (you might remember my Duluth post) with
> about 80 hrs... but am very comfortable communicating with ATC in /
> around MSP Class B airspace.
>
> I will, as always, have VFR flight following. Will ATC be expecting me
> to choose one of the above options when I approach Chicagoland? How
> much ATC interaction should I expect while I'm over / under their
> airspace? Maybe just handoffs?
>
> Also, Meigs Class D is still on the chart. Is it really still in
> effect/operation?
>
> Thanks a ton!
>
> Neil Bratney
> PP-ASEL
>

in reverse order meigs is just a park now it is a class nothing.
flight following around ohare? you can try but dont count on it.
getting a transition through the class B? not a chance in hell.

climb above the class b? i wouldnt, there is a lot of high speed traffic
up there.
if the weather is good just head down the shoreline at about 2000 feet it
is really neat.
if the weather is a bit iffy head for the dupage vor to joliet vor then
gary

tony zambon
9941L

[Dave Stadt]

"Neil Bratney" > wrote in message
...
> Hey all,
>
> I'm looking at flying my PA 28-161 VFR from Minneapolis to South Bend,
> Indiana, in a few weeks for a Notre Dame football game (go irish!). Two
> big things, of course, stand in my way: Lake Michigan and the Chicago
> Class B airspace.
>
> I've looked at the Chicago Terminal Chart, and have come up with two
> possibilities:
>
> 1.) Aim for the OBK VOR, then skirt under Class Bravo at 2,900, and hug
> the lakeshore all the way around to South Bend.
>
> 2.) Take 'er up to 11,500 in southcentral Wisconsin, go above the Class
> B airspace. I've never been up that high before! This might let me cut
> a little deeper across Lake Michigan.
>
> 3.) Accept a transition through Class B from ATC.
>
> I'm a pretty new VFR pilot (you might remember my Duluth post) with
> about 80 hrs... but am very comfortable communicating with ATC in /
> around MSP Class B airspace.
>
> I will, as always, have VFR flight following. Will ATC be expecting me
> to choose one of the above options when I approach Chicagoland? How
> much ATC interaction should I expect while I'm over / under their
> airspace? Maybe just handoffs?
>
> Also, Meigs Class D is still on the chart. Is it really still in
> effect/operation?
>
> Thanks a ton!
>
> Neil Bratney
> PP-ASEL


If you have never transited the lake shore it is a million dollar ride and
definitely worth doing.

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

tony zambon wrote:

> "Neil Bratney wrote:

> > 2.) Take 'er up to 11,500 in southcentral Wisconsin, go above the
Class
> > B airspace. I've never been up that high before!

> climb above the class b? i wouldnt, there is a lot of high speed
traffic up there.

I've done that (11,500 a couple of times), and it works fine. I've
never seen a "lot" of high speed traffic at that (or any other) level
that I fly at. All the small stuff is lower, and all the big stuff is
higher. All the big stuff down low is IN the "B", hence the "B" :-).
Plus, you can go in a straight line.

> if the weather is good just head down the shoreline at about 2000
feet it
> is really neat.

Agreed - it's wonderful in NYC - I imagine the same would be true for
Chicago.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2004

[Travis Marlatte]

Chances of continuing flight following around Chicago is 50/50. Sounding
professional and time of day determines your chance of getting handed off.
Chances of tranisitioning the class B is zero. The lakeshore ride is the
better view. If the weather is iffy, stay west.

Most people transition the lakeshore at 2000. Personally, I do it at 2200 or
1800. Keep your eyes open. With Meigs gone, there is no one controlling the
lakeshore anymore. Talk to Gary around the south side.

If you want to talk, send me an email.
--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Neil Bratney" > wrote in message
...
> Hey all,
>
> I'm looking at flying my PA 28-161 VFR from Minneapolis to South Bend,
> Indiana, in a few weeks for a Notre Dame football game (go irish!). Two
> big things, of course, stand in my way: Lake Michigan and the Chicago
> Class B airspace.
>
> I've looked at the Chicago Terminal Chart, and have come up with two
> possibilities:
>
> 1.) Aim for the OBK VOR, then skirt under Class Bravo at 2,900, and hug
> the lakeshore all the way around to South Bend.
>
> 2.) Take 'er up to 11,500 in southcentral Wisconsin, go above the Class
> B airspace. I've never been up that high before! This might let me cut
> a little deeper across Lake Michigan.
>
> 3.) Accept a transition through Class B from ATC.
>
> I'm a pretty new VFR pilot (you might remember my Duluth post) with
> about 80 hrs... but am very comfortable communicating with ATC in /
> around MSP Class B airspace.
>
> I will, as always, have VFR flight following. Will ATC be expecting me
> to choose one of the above options when I approach Chicagoland? How
> much ATC interaction should I expect while I'm over / under their
> airspace? Maybe just handoffs?
>
> Also, Meigs Class D is still on the chart. Is it really still in
> effect/operation?
>
> Thanks a ton!
>
> Neil Bratney
> PP-ASEL
>

[vincent p. norris]

>If you have never transited the lake shore it is a million dollar ride and
>definitely worth doing.

I enthusiasticallly second that; it's the way I go to and return from
OSH.

But when I go from central PA down to the Outer Banks, I go over
Dulles above the Class B. Works great.

vince norris

[David Johnson]

> climb above the class b? i wouldnt, there is a lot of high speed traffic
> up there.


Baloney. All that "high speed traffic" is either taking off or landing
(way down below you) or is overflying waaaayyy above you at 11.5 or
12.5. Overflying is the safest place to be. The view is great as
well (assuming good weather)

Been there, done that

David Johnson

[tony zambon]

"David Johnson" > wrote in message
om...
> > climb above the class b? i wouldnt, there is a lot of high speed
traffic
> > up there.
>
>
> Baloney. All that "high speed traffic" is either taking off or landing
> (way down below you) or is overflying waaaayyy above you at 11.5 or
> 12.5. Overflying is the safest place to be. The view is great as
> well (assuming good weather)
>
> Been there, done that
>
> David Johnson

sorry but i have to disagree. flying over the top of ohare is not a
good place to be. if you dont believe me check out the STARs, most have the
inbounds crossing various fixes at 30 to 40 miles out at 11,000 ft.

tony zambon
grumman
9941L

[Nathan Young]

Option #1. The Chicago lakeshore view is awesome, especially on a
clear evening. Beware the lakefront and stadium TFRs that come and
go. Approach is 20.55. You can fly the lakeshore at 2900MSL. Watch
for other sightseeing traffic as it is heavy. Drop down lower and
look up at the Hancock and Sears Tower as you fly by. If you do the
OBK VOR to the lakeshore, be careful not to clip the lower ring of the
Bravo and/or PWKs airspace.

Option #2. If you are on flightfollowing, ORD approach will probably
ask you to go around ORD, and may cancel FF if you go over. Also,
Chicago center does not usually coordinate handoffs with ORD approach,
so you may find yourself mixing it up with the Janesville arrival
traffic without flight following. Good views, but doing this makes me
nervous.

Option #3 will not happen. I've been flying in ORD area for 10 years
and have had 1 VFR ransition through the Bravo, and that was at 2am.

Alternate option. Go around ORD to the West and South. Approach is
20.55, 33.5, 19.35 respectively. What's another 15 minutes of flying?


On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:40:12 GMT, Neil Bratney
> wrote:

>Hey all,
>
>I'm looking at flying my PA 28-161 VFR from Minneapolis to South Bend,
>Indiana, in a few weeks for a Notre Dame football game (go irish!). Two
>big things, of course, stand in my way: Lake Michigan and the Chicago
>Class B airspace.
>
>I've looked at the Chicago Terminal Chart, and have come up with two
>possibilities:
>
>1.) Aim for the OBK VOR, then skirt under Class Bravo at 2,900, and hug
>the lakeshore all the way around to South Bend.
>
>2.) Take 'er up to 11,500 in southcentral Wisconsin, go above the Class
>B airspace. I've never been up that high before! This might let me cut
>a little deeper across Lake Michigan.
>
>3.) Accept a transition through Class B from ATC.
>
>I'm a pretty new VFR pilot (you might remember my Duluth post) with
>about 80 hrs... but am very comfortable communicating with ATC in /
>around MSP Class B airspace.
>
>I will, as always, have VFR flight following. Will ATC be expecting me
>to choose one of the above options when I approach Chicagoland? How
>much ATC interaction should I expect while I'm over / under their
>airspace? Maybe just handoffs?
>
>Also, Meigs Class D is still on the chart. Is it really still in
>effect/operation?
>
>Thanks a ton!
>
>Neil Bratney
>PP-ASEL

[MLenoch]

> sorry but i have to disagree. flying over the top of ohare is not a
>good place to be. if you dont believe me check out the STARs, most have the
>inbounds crossing various fixes at 30 to 40 miles out at 11,000 ft.

I've been flying VFR over the top of O'Hare for the past 20 years. Almost no
traffic up there. I find all of the traffic below 10,000' and above 4000'
around the sides of the class B. But then again, I transition over the top in
excess of 250 knots. For slower VFR, I'd recommend lake shore or the west side
as previous posts have described.
VL

[Bob]

"Travis Marlatte" > wrote:

>Most people transition the lakeshore at 2000. Personally, I do it at 2200 or
>1800.

Is this option something you'd consider for a Cub or Champ
cruising at 70 mph with a battery operated radio and no
XPDR? If heading from the east coast (Mass) to Oshkosh in
such an old timer how would you go? I doubt I can get over
the top. Around the west side of Chicago or up through
Canada are pretty far at such a slow speed, and 50 miles
over water on the direct route is not something I'm anxious
to try.

[john smith]

In 20+ years of going to OSH from OH, I have only gone over the top
once. All but one other time have been along the lakeshore. The other
exception was around the west side in 1985 in a Champ. That was to stop
for lunch and fuel at Clow.

Bob wrote:
> "Travis Marlatte" > wrote:
>
>
>>Most people transition the lakeshore at 2000. Personally, I do it at 2200 or
>>1800.
>
>
> Is this option something you'd consider for a Cub or Champ
> cruising at 70 mph with a battery operated radio and no
> XPDR? If heading from the east coast (Mass) to Oshkosh in
> such an old timer how would you go? I doubt I can get over
> the top. Around the west side of Chicago or up through
> Canada are pretty far at such a slow speed, and 50 miles
> over water on the direct route is not something I'm anxious
> to try.

[Viperdoc]

I have flown the low altitude route as well as over the top VFR and much
prefer the high altitude. If you have an engine problem you have a lot more
options, and traffic is a lot more visible up high.

Don't forget that all of the heavy iron has TCAS and will see you on the
screen well before you see them.

[Travis Marlatte]

No radio? No problem. No XPDR? Oops. You'd have to be pretty far out over
Lake Michigan to be outside the ORD class B 30nm mode C veil. So, that
depends on your definition of risk. Do you mind being 15 miles offshore with
no floats and a battery operated radio that might not transmit to shore and
no XPDR so that they could track your splash?

That's too much risk for me. I'd stick to the farm fields south and west of
the class B veil.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> "Travis Marlatte" > wrote:
>
> >Most people transition the lakeshore at 2000. Personally, I do it at 2200
or
> >1800.
>
> Is this option something you'd consider for a Cub or Champ
> cruising at 70 mph with a battery operated radio and no
> XPDR? If heading from the east coast (Mass) to Oshkosh in
> such an old timer how would you go? I doubt I can get over
> the top. Around the west side of Chicago or up through
> Canada are pretty far at such a slow speed, and 50 miles
> over water on the direct route is not something I'm anxious
> to try.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> No radio? No problem. No XPDR? Oops. You'd have to be pretty far out over
> Lake Michigan to be outside the ORD class B 30nm mode C veil. So, that
> depends on your definition of risk. Do you mind being 15 miles offshore
> with
> no floats and a battery operated radio that might not transmit to shore
> and
> no XPDR so that they could track your splash?
>
> That's too much risk for me. I'd stick to the farm fields south and west
> of
> the class B veil.
>

Most Cubs and Champs were built without electrical systems and thus are
exempt from the transponder requirements of the Mode C veil.

[john smith]

Yep! I can fly right up to the inner-most cylinder, below 1200' AGL.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> Most Cubs and Champs were built without electrical systems and thus are
> exempt from the transponder requirements of the Mode C veil.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Travis Marlatte wrote:
>
> No radio? No problem. No XPDR? Oops. You'd have to be pretty far out over
> Lake Michigan to be outside the ORD class B 30nm mode C veil.

He said a Cub or a Champ; that is, an aircraft that was built with no electrical
system. He can fly such an aircraft within the veil as long as he stays out of the
class-B itself.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Travis Marlatte]

Oops. Sorry. I guess I should have assumed that from the "battery operated
radio" phrase.

Then it's a phone call to get permission, right?

--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > No radio? No problem. No XPDR? Oops. You'd have to be pretty far out
over
> > Lake Michigan to be outside the ORD class B 30nm mode C veil. So, that
> > depends on your definition of risk. Do you mind being 15 miles offshore
> > with
> > no floats and a battery operated radio that might not transmit to shore
> > and
> > no XPDR so that they could track your splash?
> >
> > That's too much risk for me. I'd stick to the farm fields south and west
> > of
> > the class B veil.
> >
>
> Most Cubs and Champs were built without electrical systems and thus are
> exempt from the transponder requirements of the Mode C veil.
>
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Oops. Sorry. I guess I should have assumed that from the "battery operated
> radio" phrase.
>
> Then it's a phone call to get permission, right?

Only to operate within the Class B itself. Which is not what they are
suggesting.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> Oops. Sorry. I guess I should have assumed that from the "battery operated
> radio" phrase.
>
> Then it's a phone call to get permission, right?
>

No. No permission is required for VFR flight in the Mode C veil.

[Newps]

Travis Marlatte wrote:

> Oops. Sorry. I guess I should have assumed that from the "battery operated
> radio" phrase.
>
> Then it's a phone call to get permission, right?

Only to the anal stuck up controllers. Nobody ever calls here to
request permission to operate without a transponder within the class C
because they know they just have to call us on the radio to get service.
As for operating within the veil without a transponder you've got to
be kidding. Nobody bothers with piddly ass worries like that.