Alien training rule perspective

[Roger Long]

These new TSA training rules, however improved, are an excellent case study
in security.

Let's look first at the background. Before 911 and all the hysteria, a
flight instructor noticed that an odd guy seemed to only want to learn how
to take off and aim the plane without landing. The CFI alerted the FBI who
acted like he was reporting an alien abduction. Someone in the FBI did try
to take it seriously and had her (I believe) career destroyed for going
around the organizational obstruction to the information being passed up the
chain of command. But, someone in aviation did notice that something funny
was going on, even in those innocent days.

So now, if someone wants to learn how to aim an airplane while holding a
Koran in one hand and chanting "Allah is great" while they do it, they won't
be able to learn in the normal aviation training environment. History has
shown that, in a typical flight school environment, someone is very likely
to notice that something is wrong with the picture and report it. This time
around the FBI might even pay attention to the report (although I wouldn't
bet my life on it).

Not being able to train in a normal flight school will not prevent the
determined terrorist from getting enough stick and rudder skills to carry
out an attack. There are plenty of drug runner pilots and similar types who
would teach him for a fee and out of anyone's view. The TSA rules will
simply move illicit training to where it is less likely to be noticed while
putting yet more burdens on the law abiding. The primary effect will to be
to prevent aspiring aero-terrorists from making the mistake of trying to
learn in the environment where they are most likely to be detected.

Do you feel safer yet?

--

Roger Long

[Ron Natalie]

Roger Long wrote:

> Not being able to train in a normal flight school will not prevent the
> determined terrorist from getting enough stick and rudder skills to carry
> out an attack. There are plenty of drug runner pilots and similar types who
> would teach him for a fee and out of anyone's view.

And for them it wouldn't even be illegal. The rules only apply to people
trying for legitimate ratings with legitimate flight instructors. BillyBob,
just a private pilot, with no CFI can give the instruction to Osoma with no
obligation to the TSA or anybody else...just can't sign him off for his
checkride.

[Roger Long]

Excellent point. Notice how often (maybe 99.8%) these government responses
have the effect of putting otherwise law abiding citizens in danger of
becoming paperwork lawbreakers without making dangerous activity actually
illegal?

--

Roger Long



"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Roger Long wrote:
>
>> Not being able to train in a normal flight school will not prevent the
>> determined terrorist from getting enough stick and rudder skills to carry
>> out an attack. There are plenty of drug runner pilots and similar types
>> who would teach him for a fee and out of anyone's view.
>
> And for them it wouldn't even be illegal. The rules only apply to people
> trying for legitimate ratings with legitimate flight instructors.
> BillyBob,
> just a private pilot, with no CFI can give the instruction to Osoma with
> no
> obligation to the TSA or anybody else...just can't sign him off for his
> checkride.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Roger Long" > said:
>Not being able to train in a normal flight school will not prevent the
>determined terrorist from getting enough stick and rudder skills to carry
>out an attack. There are plenty of drug runner pilots and similar types who

Much as I hate this rule (as a permanent resident of the United States who
isn't a citizen yet), I have to say one good thing about the rule: If the
terrorists aren't training at a legitimate flight school, then they can't
get a legitimate visa for flight training like the 9/11 terrorists did.
Of course, if the INS had been doing their homework then or now, people
with known terrorist ties wouldn't be given training visas in the first
place, and the onus wouldn't be on the flight schools to find them after
they'd been given visas.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I don't see what C++ has to do with keeping people from shooting themselves
in the foot. C++ will happily load the gun, offer you a drink to steady
your nerves, and help you aim. -- Peter da Silva

[C Kingsbury]

"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
>
> Do you feel safer yet?
>

It's worth asking whether these rules would have even done anything to help
catch the original 9/11 bunch. More likely they would have been lost in the
great paper chase as they were with visas, driver's licenses, et. al.

What I'd support is a program where the TSA had profilers like the El Al
guys come around and do seminars on things to watch out for. Charge
admission and require them annually for all I care. Hell, open them to the
general public while you're at it. The proposed system seems to add a lot
more noise than signal.

-cwk.

[Roger Long]

So, they'll learn to fly somewhere off the radar screen and come in on a
visa to study flower arranging.

The government continues to confuse making things mildly inconvenient with
prevention and thinking that the more people inconvenienced, the greater the
safety.

All the confusion and effort of inconveniencing the innocent many actually
makes it easier for the determined few who are a danger. Make everyone
carry an identity card and the cops will stop looking at faces and behavior.
They'll just start checking the cards. It's much easier to fake the card
and much easier to blend into the long line of people waiting for their
cards to be checked.

You know, we had a system that actually worked, up to a point. A CFI called
up the FBI and said, "Hey, something weird is going on here." The new rule
is part of the gargantuan structure being put in place that will change our
lives forever while obscuring and burying the simple things that will work,
like responding when someone calls up and says they think their flight
student wants to crash a plane into a building.


--

Roger Long



"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Roger Long" > said:
>>Not being able to train in a normal flight school will not prevent the
>>determined terrorist from getting enough stick and rudder skills to carry
>>out an attack. There are plenty of drug runner pilots and similar types
>>who
>
> Much as I hate this rule (as a permanent resident of the United States who
> isn't a citizen yet), I have to say one good thing about the rule: If the
> terrorists aren't training at a legitimate flight school, then they can't
> get a legitimate visa for flight training like the 9/11 terrorists did.
> Of course, if the INS had been doing their homework then or now, people
> with known terrorist ties wouldn't be given training visas in the first
> place, and the onus wouldn't be on the flight schools to find them after
> they'd been given visas.
>
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> I don't see what C++ has to do with keeping people from shooting
> themselves
> in the foot. C++ will happily load the gun, offer you a drink to steady
> your nerves, and help you aim. -- Peter da Silva

[NW_PILOT]

"Roger Long" > wrote in message
...
> These new TSA training rules, however improved, are an excellent case
study
> in security.
>
> Let's look first at the background. Before 911 and all the hysteria, a
> flight instructor noticed that an odd guy seemed to only want to learn how
> to take off and aim the plane without landing. The CFI alerted the FBI who
> acted like he was reporting an alien abduction. Someone in the FBI did try
> to take it seriously and had her (I believe) career destroyed for going
> around the organizational obstruction to the information being passed up
the
> chain of command. But, someone in aviation did notice that something funny
> was going on, even in those innocent days.
>
> So now, if someone wants to learn how to aim an airplane while holding a
> Koran in one hand and chanting "Allah is great" while they do it, they
won't
> be able to learn in the normal aviation training environment. History has
> shown that, in a typical flight school environment, someone is very likely
> to notice that something is wrong with the picture and report it. This
time
> around the FBI might even pay attention to the report (although I wouldn't
> bet my life on it).
>
> Not being able to train in a normal flight school will not prevent the
> determined terrorist from getting enough stick and rudder skills to carry
> out an attack. There are plenty of drug runner pilots and similar types
who
> would teach him for a fee and out of anyone's view. The TSA rules will
> simply move illicit training to where it is less likely to be noticed
while
> putting yet more burdens on the law abiding. The primary effect will to be
> to prevent aspiring aero-terrorists from making the mistake of trying to
> learn in the environment where they are most likely to be detected.
>
> Do you feel safer yet?
>
> --
>
> Roger Long
>
>
>
>

TSA, Police, FBI = window dressing

The other night I caught a car prowler even took a photo/video of the person
prowling the neighbor hood cars and when confronted he blamed me as being a
racist and that he was just selling oil change coupons.

I told the officer that I don't care if he is white, hispanic, black,
yellow, green, or red when someone knocks on the door, then rings the door
bell at 9 PM at night and when you don't answer they start looking in your
car windows that's car prowling. The prowler said he was looking for oil
change stickers yea right. Police did not do anything because a race issue
was brought up. They police threatened to charge me for harassment because
the prowler brought up the race issue. Even though he was trespassing and I
have video surveillance of him looking in the car windows.

I called the auto lube co the next morning and they denied sending anyone
out to sell oil change coupons and they do not advertise that way.

This same situation I believe could happen to a flight instructor or maybe
worse. An instructor may deny a foreign middle eastern man flight
instruction because he feels that they may be a security risk or something
else and the instructor gets sued for racial discrimination or charged with
criminal discrimination. Now if the TSA denies the foreign student flight
instruction so be it its out of the instructors hands.

[Peter Duniho]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> [...] If the
> terrorists aren't training at a legitimate flight school, then they can't
> get a legitimate visa for flight training like the 9/11 terrorists did.

Huh?

A known terrorist should not be able to get a legitimate visa, even for
flight training. Conversely, a person who should be permitted to get a
legitimate visa would easily pass whatever tests the FAA and TSA come up
with for restricting flight training.

Why would a terrorist avoid going to a legitimate flight school if they
would otherwise have no trouble getting a visa for the training?

Your comment reeks of tautology.

> Of course, if the INS had been doing their homework then or now, people
> with known terrorist ties wouldn't be given training visas in the first
> place, and the onus wouldn't be on the flight schools to find them after
> they'd been given visas.

Exactly. But more importantly, even with the onus on the flight schools,
they aren't actually finding terrorists. They are deferring the work to the
government, while incurring a huge paperwork headache with absolutely no
benefit.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> I told the officer that I don't care if he is white, hispanic, black,
> yellow, green, or red when someone knocks on the door, then rings the door
> bell at 9 PM at night and when you don't answer they start looking in your
> car windows that's car prowling. The prowler said he was looking for oil
> change stickers yea right. Police did not do anything because a race issue
> was brought up.

I don't suppose the lack of any illegal activity might have had something to
do with the lack of an arrest?

Honestly, he might have been a prowler, he might not have. Until you see
him trying to break into a car, you have no idea. His story could easily
have been true, and he guilty of nothing more than being stupid enough to
try to sell oil change coupons late at night.

I mean really, just how smart do you think a guy who's making his money
selling oil change coupons door to door actually is?

Pete

[Jay Honeck]

> They are deferring the work to the government, while incurring a huge
> paperwork headache with absolutely no benefit.

Which is, after all, what our government does best.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Judah]

Perhaps the TSA should start fingerprinting all foreign Oil Change Coupon
salesman. Then it will solve all of our problems.


"Peter Duniho" > wrote in
:

> "NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
> ...
>> [...]
>> I told the officer that I don't care if he is white, hispanic, black,
>> yellow, green, or red when someone knocks on the door, then rings the
>> door bell at 9 PM at night and when you don't answer they start
>> looking in your car windows that's car prowling. The prowler said he
>> was looking for oil change stickers yea right. Police did not do
>> anything because a race issue was brought up.
>
> I don't suppose the lack of any illegal activity might have had
> something to do with the lack of an arrest?
>
> Honestly, he might have been a prowler, he might not have. Until you
> see him trying to break into a car, you have no idea. His story could
> easily have been true, and he guilty of nothing more than being stupid
> enough to try to sell oil change coupons late at night.
>
> I mean really, just how smart do you think a guy who's making his money
> selling oil change coupons door to door actually is?
>
> Pete
>
>
>

[NW_PILOT]

"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> Perhaps the TSA should start fingerprinting all foreign Oil Change Coupon
> salesman. Then it will solve all of our problems.


The TSA should give us the right to retroactive abort the person that's
trespassing and car prowling no matter what race or skin color.

>
>
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in
> :
>
> > "NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> [...]
> >> I told the officer that I don't care if he is white, hispanic, black,
> >> yellow, green, or red when someone knocks on the door, then rings the
> >> door bell at 9 PM at night and when you don't answer they start
> >> looking in your car windows that's car prowling. The prowler said he
> >> was looking for oil change stickers yea right. Police did not do
> >> anything because a race issue was brought up.
> >
> > I don't suppose the lack of any illegal activity might have had
> > something to do with the lack of an arrest?
> >
> > Honestly, he might have been a prowler, he might not have. Until you
> > see him trying to break into a car, you have no idea. His story could
> > easily have been true, and he guilty of nothing more than being stupid
> > enough to try to sell oil change coupons late at night.
> >
> > I mean really, just how smart do you think a guy who's making his money
> > selling oil change coupons door to door actually is?
> >
> > Pete
> >
> >
> >
>

[Peter Duniho]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message
...
> The TSA should give us the right to retroactive abort the person that's
> trespassing and car prowling no matter what race or skin color.

Capital punishment for property crimes?

Uh, okay. Fortunately, most people are more sensible than you when it comes
to stuff like that.