Cold Weather Winter Flying Q's

[NW_PILOT]

I may have to go to the Regina, SK, CA/Minnesota area this winter for 2
months.

First Is Snow How Deep Before Ski's Are Needed? Ware to obtain ski's for a
cessna 150?

Best Type of Oil Heater?

Should One Use a Cowl Warmer?

I Notice in the manual something about a winterization Kit Can I
install/uninstall it my self? Can you still buy the winterization kit? If so
ware is the best place to buy?

Any Tips For Landing on Ice And Snow!

Any Extra Pre-Flight Inspections Needed For Extreme Cold Weather

Any other useful tips for that type of flying gladly accepted.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "NW_PILOT" > said:
>I may have to go to the Regina, SK, CA/Minnesota area this winter for 2
>months.
>
>First Is Snow How Deep Before Ski's Are Needed? Ware to obtain ski's for a
>cessna 150?

It may surprise you to find out that Saskatchewan has snow plows. Many
airports will have clear runways, even in the middle of winter.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I treat shops as military objectives to be penetrated and stripped of needed
resources in as little time as possible. She has adventures in them.
-- Joe Thompson

[Nathan Young]

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 03:59:31 -0800, "NW_PILOT" >
wrote:

>I may have to go to the Regina, SK, CA/Minnesota area this winter for 2
>months.
>
>First Is Snow How Deep Before Ski's Are Needed? Ware to obtain ski's for a
>cessna 150?

Most airports will be plowed, and you would only require skiis if
landing offsite (like on a lake), or if it is snowing so hard that the
airport cannot keep up. I have landed my Cherokee in 1-2 inches of
snow, and it was fine. Be sure to remove your wheel pants. I have
heard that snow can get packed in the pant and either cause damage to
the pant, or to the tire.

>Best Type of Oil Heater?

I've used a Red Dragon preheater to start down to 0degF. Be patient,
and let it run for a long time (30+ minutes). Definitely use a cowl
cover to help keep the heat in the cowling. The best pre-heat is just
to keep the plane in a heated hangar.

>I Notice in the manual something about a winterization Kit Can I
>install/uninstall it my self? Can you still buy the winterization kit? If so
>ware is the best place to buy?

I don't know about the C150, but for the PA28-180, the oil temp will
not get above 125deg without the winterization kit. So it is a must
for winter flying. Just be prepared to take it off if you fly South
into warmer weather.

>Any Tips For Landing on Ice And Snow!

Make sure your crosswind technique is spotless, and the crosswinds are
light. Seriously, landing on ice, or packed snow with a crosswind is
not easy. Once the plane gets moving sideways on ice it is difficult
to stop the side-motion given the lack of friction between the gear
and the runway. This is especially true as the plane slows down and
the control surfaces become less effective.

Also, taxiing on ice is difficult. Some ramps have a slant to them,
and the plane will want to 'fall' off the ramp.

One more tip for landing. Bring the plane to a complete stop on the
runway, then begin your taxi phase. A lot of pilots have thought they
have control of the plane, try to make a taxiway, and then end up in a
snowdrift.

Taxiways and runways will be lined with snow, possibly several feet
deep. As such, wingtip clearance (particularly on lowwings) needs to
be watched closely. Stay in the middle of the taxiway/runway and
watch those wingtips.

>Any Extra Pre-Flight Inspections Needed For Extreme Cold Weather

Wear warm clothes in the plane, and have extra blankets for
passengers. Airplanes tend to be drafty, and when the OAT is below 0
deg F, it gets cold in a hurry.

Have a good pair of sunglasses. On a bright sunny day with snow
covering the ground, the brightness can be overwhelming.

When it is snowing lightly, VFR conditions will often be reported at
nearby airports. In flight visibility with snow can be quite low,
basically making it an IFR flight.

[G.R. Patterson III]

NW_PILOT wrote:
>
> Best Type of Oil Heater?

Wag-Aero sells a cover kit for the oil tank. It's not a heater, but it will keep the
oil warmer when the engine's running.

> Should One Use a Cowl Warmer?

If you intend to be flying somewhere, parking for an hour, and flying again without
pre-heat, I would buy an insulated cowl cover. I had a Kennon cover for my 150.

> I Notice in the manual something about a winterization Kit Can I
> install/uninstall it my self? Can you still buy the winterization kit? If so
> ware is the best place to buy?

Back in the early 90's, my A&P told me that these were no longer available. He could
have been wrong. Check with an authorized Cessna service center.

> Any Extra Pre-Flight Inspections Needed For Extreme Cold Weather

Preheat. If possible, get the heater outlet into the lower part of the cowl. That
will heat the oil tank as well as the rest of the engine.

> Any other useful tips for that type of flying gladly accepted.

Keep the revs up - the heater works best near redline. I found that my heater was
most effective if I cracked the cabin air knob just a little to increase the air
flow. I would definitely wear insulated boots and either long johns or insulated
pants.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Newps]

NW_PILOT wrote:
> I may have to go to the Regina, SK, CA/Minnesota area this winter for 2
> months.
>
> First Is Snow How Deep Before Ski's Are Needed?

Depends on the plane and the tires you have. I have landed my 182 in a
few inches.


Ware to obtain ski's for a
> cessna 150?

That's funny, ski's on a 150. A 150 can barely get out of its own way.


>
> Best Type of Oil Heater?

You'll need a nose mitten first, no matter what type of heater you get.
You only need an oil pan heater. I have two on my 182. I can use one
or both at the same time, depending on the OAT. At zero degrees F and
both heaters plugged in the oil will be 100F and each cylinder will be
80F.


>
> Should One Use a Cowl Warmer?

There's no reason to get an electric one, it's an inefficient way to heat.


>
> I Notice in the manual something about a winterization Kit Can I
> install/uninstall it my self?

That is a foam insulator that goes over the breather pipe. Get that at
your local hardware store. It also is two plates that get mount on the
front of the cowl, restricting the airflow. I made mine last year.
Found someone who had them and traced a copy for my self.


Can you still buy the winterization kit?

You might but they're really expensive from Cessna. Just make your own.


>
> Any Tips For Landing on Ice And Snow!

Snow is fun. You'll make great landings. Ice is easy too. Just don't
be trying to stop quick or manuever.


>
> Any Extra Pre-Flight Inspections Needed For Extreme Cold Weather

Make sure the gas quick drains still work. They'll freeze shut if
there's even a hint of water. To heat the interior, if you have
electricity available, leave a 60 or 100 watt light bulb turned on on
the fllor of the pilots side. The heat will warm the instruments and
make the interior a little warmer.

[[email protected]]

My Minnesota thoughts -

1) Preheat only before flying. Do not heat continuously or you will
have internal corrosion in the engine cylinders. Inside storage is
OK.

2) Preheat long enough to get the oil warm too. Do not just preheat
to get the cylinders warm.

3) Don't think you can get by without preheat "just this once" when
below about 32 deg F, especially if you have non-winter grade oil. It
is really hard on an engine as it takes quite a long time for the
crankcase to develop an oil fog if things are too gooey. Scored
camshafts and cylinders can be the result. I like semisynthetic oils,
although the starter engagement on your 150 may not like the extra
lubricity.

Engine lube systems are such that the bypassed oil from the relief
valve does not have good access to the heat of the cylinders. They
then become actually surprisingly slow to warm up - especially if the
oil is thick, since most of the oil flow bypasses the engine after a
cold startup. Try to cover any oil coolers so that the oil temp
eventually warms up to 180 deg F in flight to minimize condensation in
the oil.

4) Add small amounts (couple of tablespoons or so) of isopropyl
alcohol (yellow can HEET) to the tanks as a matter if principle when
it is below freezing. You may otherwise have small amounts of
dissolved water in the fuel come out of solution as snow when the fuel
is severely chilled. Beware of fuel that has been severely chilled
since its last filtering. On a long flight, this snow can block the
fuel screens. I know, it happened to me although it was about -20 deg
F. I know of others that have had the same problem.

Personally I don't like to fly below zero F, as a result of 4), but I
know others do it.

[Cub Driver]

>Snow How Deep Before Ski's Are Needed?

In the NE, it doesn't take much more than an inch before you're in
trouble. However, very few people use skis. They plow the runway
instead.

At 7B3 Hampton NH, the plowing is done in a racetrack oval with the
east side being the runway and the west side the taxiway. The
"infield" is for ski planes if anyone is so equipped.

Our problem is more with ice than with snow. Plowing an open space
exposes it to sun, and of course you don't salt a grass field, so ice
forms and is difficult to get rid of--basically, it takes a good thaw.
Landing and taking off aren't the problem; taxiing is, especially on
the turns (I learned to switch to left magneto to slow down for the
turns) and in the wind (I was blown sideways several feet on one
occasion, very nearly into the snowbank).

As a matter of policy, the airport here doesn't rent the Cubs when the
air temp is below 20F.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Mike Rapoport]

> wrote in message
om...
> My Minnesota thoughts -
>
> 4) Add small amounts (couple of tablespoons or so) of isopropyl
> alcohol (yellow can HEET) to the tanks as a matter if principle when
> it is below freezing. You may otherwise have small amounts of
> dissolved water in the fuel come out of solution as snow when the fuel
> is severely chilled. Beware of fuel that has been severely chilled
> since its last filtering. On a long flight, this snow can block the
> fuel screens. I know, it happened to me although it was about -20 deg
> F. I know of others that have had the same problem.
>

What is HEET? Thanks.

Mike
MU-2

[Jay Honeck]

> What is HEET? Thanks.

It's basically a small bottle of alcohol that is for sale at every gas
station in the Midwest from now through next April. Now it's about 49
cents apiece. When the temperature drops below zero, it'll sell for a buck
forty nine...

Funny thing is, I see people buying the stuff by the dozen -- yet they won't
use ethanol in their cars.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

> What is HEET? Thanks.

Automobile gas line deicer. Some say Minnesotans drink the
stuff......!

Really HEET is not needed here anymore with our mandatory gasahol.

Beware there are two versions. Be sure to get deicer only with
isopropyl alcohol. Actually to be legal, you should use aviation
grade isopropyl alcohol. but I've never seen the stuff.

If you are using jet fuel for an MU-2 this doesn't apply. I don't
know what they use.

> Mike
> MU-2

[Newps]

wrote:

>>What is HEET? Thanks.
>
>
> Automobile gas line deicer. Some say Minnesotans drink the
> stuff......!
>
> Really HEET is not needed here anymore with our mandatory gasahol.
>
> Beware there are two versions. Be sure to get deicer only with
> isopropyl alcohol. Actually to be legal, you should use aviation
> grade isopropyl alcohol. but I've never seen the stuff.

I used Heet once. Had my shiny newly overhauled Cardinal about 2 weeks.
Poured in a can of Heet into the tank. Gummy blue crap came out the
fuel drain. Turns out Heet removes the blue dye from 100LL.

[Mike Rapoport]

> wrote in message
om...
>> What is HEET? Thanks.
>
> Automobile gas line deicer. Some say Minnesotans drink the
> stuff......!
>
> Really HEET is not needed here anymore with our mandatory gasahol.
>
> Beware there are two versions. Be sure to get deicer only with
> isopropyl alcohol. Actually to be legal, you should use aviation
> grade isopropyl alcohol. but I've never seen the stuff.
>
> If you are using jet fuel for an MU-2 this doesn't apply. I don't
> know what they use.
>
>> Mike
>> MU-2

I have a Helio Courier too, but mostly I was just interested in what it was
particularly since the context suggested that it was some widely availible
product to remove water from fuel. They use a additive called Prist to
remove water from jet fuel and also to prevent microbes from growing in the
fuel. What is the other version of HEET made from and what is it used for?
Diesel?

Mike
MU-2

[SelwayKid]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message >...
> I may have to go to the Regina, SK, CA/Minnesota area this winter for 2
> months.
>
> First Is Snow How Deep Before Ski's Are Needed? Ware to obtain ski's for a
> cessna 150?
>
> Best Type of Oil Heater?
>
> Should One Use a Cowl Warmer?
>
> I Notice in the manual something about a winterization Kit Can I
> install/uninstall it my self? Can you still buy the winterization kit? If so
> ware is the best place to buy?
>
> Any Tips For Landing on Ice And Snow!

Aside from the many good hints/tips you are getting, here are few
more. Make sure you are either wearing on have on board, WARM clothes
in the event of an engine failure and you end up freezing to death
while waiting for help!
When you taxi, the brake rotors will heat up and any blowing snow that
hits them will melt. When you do your run up, the brakes may freeze
and you can have a problem getting them unstuck. Same can happen when
you take off. when you touch down again, anticipate a lurch as one
wheel breaks lose before the other. May nothappen but I saw if often
enough in Canada and Norther Minnesota. The only time I ever saw a
C-150 leave a contrail was in GPZ in the pattern! OAT was about 0f.
Getting some preheat into the cockpit will help the windscreen defrost
and more importantly will warm the gyros and instruments so they will
not bind and cause premature wear and tear or total malfunction.
Ol Shy & Bashful
>
> Any Extra Pre-Flight Inspections Needed For Extreme Cold Weather
>
> Any other useful tips for that type of flying gladly accepted.

[Cub Driver]

On 5 Nov 2004 05:15:55 -0800, (SelwayKid) wrote:

> Make sure you are either wearing on have on board, WARM clothes
>in the event of an engine failure and you end up freezing to death
>while waiting for help!

My instructor liked to say: "Remember, every time you go out for a
crosscountry flight, you are volunteering for an overnight camping
trip."

I have not yet switched over to winter flying clothes. Happily, in the
Cub, there is not much difference between what you wear as PIC and
what you'd want to wear in the woods.

I don't carry snowshoes, but I do carry a cell phone. That's to call
911 and tell them to send the local snowmobile club after me :)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On 5 Nov 2004 05:15:55 -0800, (SelwayKid) wrote:

> When you do your run up, the brakes may freeze
>and you can have a problem getting them unstuck.

My first snowy weather flight was also my first solo rental. It was a
day to remember. The airport owner was plowing the taxiway toward the
downwind end of the runway, so I decided to cut across the unplowed
section between me and the runway. After all, I would have driven
through it in my car without hesitating. But the tail came up, and I
was stuck. The owner (the owner!) had to come along, tell me to shut
down the engine, turn the plane, and give me a prop.

Then I proceeded to have the opposite experience of what you relate.
While doing the runup, the braked tires weren't sufficient to hold me
in place, so I slid up against the unplowed section again. Happily I
was able to turn the plane with the rudder and didn't require the
owner's services again.

That was five years ago, and every time I meet the owner, I still
imagine him thinking: "Oh yeah, the fool who tried to taxi through
snow."

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Kevin]

Nathan Young > wrote in message >...
>
> Wear warm clothes in the plane, and have extra blankets for
> passengers. Airplanes tend to be drafty, and when the OAT is below 0
> deg F, it gets cold in a hurry.

Good point on the clothes. You need to think about what's going to
happen if you have an off airport landing. Treking even a mile when
it's cold out could have consequences you didn't plan for. So boots,
gloves, proper jackets, a hat.. all recommended items for winter
flying in Canada. Yes I know there isn't much room in a Cessna 150.
Stuff the extra things in the back if you have to. Turning into a
popsicle isn't much fun.

[Blueskies]

"Kevin" > wrote in message om...
> Nathan Young > wrote in message >...
>>
>> Wear warm clothes in the plane, and have extra blankets for
>> passengers. Airplanes tend to be drafty, and when the OAT is below 0
>> deg F, it gets cold in a hurry.
>
> Good point on the clothes. You need to think about what's going to
> happen if you have an off airport landing. Treking even a mile when
> it's cold out could have consequences you didn't plan for. So boots,
> gloves, proper jackets, a hat.. all recommended items for winter
> flying in Canada. Yes I know there isn't much room in a Cessna 150.
> Stuff the extra things in the back if you have to. Turning into a
> popsicle isn't much fun.

http://www.alaska.faa.gov/ancfsdo/WintPrep/winter.htm

http://www.equipped.com/ak_cnda.htm#Alaskan

[[email protected]]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message >...
> I may have to go to the Regina, SK, CA/Minnesota area this winter for 2
> months.
>
> First Is Snow How Deep Before Ski's Are Needed? Ware to obtain ski's for a
> cessna 150?
>
> Best Type of Oil Heater?
>
> Should One Use a Cowl Warmer?
>
> I Notice in the manual something about a winterization Kit Can I
> install/uninstall it my self? Can you still buy the winterization kit? If so
> ware is the best place to buy?
>
> Any Tips For Landing on Ice And Snow!
>
> Any Extra Pre-Flight Inspections Needed For Extreme Cold Weather
>
> Any other useful tips for that type of flying gladly accepted.

On approach to a snowy runway you may find banks of snow
right at the threshold, depending on who plowed.

Even the wings may encounter the snow bank half way down
the nice runway..

Also land without brake usage planned. Making
speed control more importent.

I have never landed except on snow. But read in the
AOPA magazine and heard it said that half ice and half
pavement is the worst situation. eXCEPT all ice with
six inch ruts seems like the worst to me.

[Cub Driver]

>I have never landed except on snow. But read in the
>AOPA magazine and heard it said that half ice and half
>pavement is the worst situation. eXCEPT all ice with
>six inch ruts seems like the worst to me.

Ice is very bad, no matter what's under it. And ice is what you
inevitably get in the Northeast at some point in the winter,
especially on a grass runway. (Pavement is likely to melt the ice
off.)

I have been blown sideways on the runway, and I have had to make turns
on ice so slick that I had to switch to one magneto in order to travel
slowly enough at idle to make the turn without sliding off.

One winter we had an instructor who brought her figure skates to kill
time on such a day. It certainly adds to the excitement of taxiing on
glare ice when you have to worry about mincing up the CFI on your way
to the gas pump.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[PaulH]

If you're parking it outside, you may have to do what the Alaska
pilots do when it gets to -40 - keep the battery indoors. Use Tanis
or Reiff cylnder heaters, plus a crankcase warmer. You'll also need
some way to warm the cabin somewhat - gyros, tach cables, and other
moving devices don't respond well to subzero starts.

Be aware that if you go down anywhere without rescue within a couple
of hours, recovery isn't likely before you freeze - those prairie
provinces have exceptional wind chills. Check with local pilots -
they will be your best source.

On the other hand, once you get it started, your 150 will climb like
crazy :-)

[SelwayKid]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> On 5 Nov 2004 05:15:55 -0800, (SelwayKid) wrote:
>
> > When you do your run up, the brakes may freeze
> >and you can have a problem getting them unstuck.
>
> My first snowy weather flight was also my first solo rental. It was a
> day to remember. The airport owner was plowing the taxiway toward the
> downwind end of the runway, so I decided to cut across the unplowed
> section between me and the runway. After all, I would have driven
> through it in my car without hesitating. But the tail came up, and I
> was stuck. The owner (the owner!) had to come along, tell me to shut
> down the engine, turn the plane, and give me a prop.
************************************************** ****
Dan
I've seen aircraft that taxied too fast over those snowplow humps and
bent the nose gear or got the prop. I carried kitty litter on the
aircraft to sp[rinkle on the ramp so my pax didn't slip and bust their
a#ss. Also used it one time to avoid slipping while I propped a twin
Beech. Carried it in the car to help me out of slick spots too.....
More than once I've been on slick ramps or runup areas where the
brakes wouldn't hold against 1700 RPM and I had to do a rolling runup.
Lots of winter stories about flying up on the Canada border between
GPZ, International Falls and Winnipeg and down into the MSP area. Lots
of severe winter weather and temps that went to -60f. brrrrrr.......
Ol Shy & Bashful
>
> Then I proceeded to have the opposite experience of what you relate.
> While doing the runup, the braked tires weren't sufficient to hold me
> in place, so I slid up against the unplowed section again. Happily I
> was able to turn the plane with the rudder and didn't require the
> owner's services again.
>
> That was five years ago, and every time I meet the owner, I still
> imagine him thinking: "Oh yeah, the fool who tried to taxi through
> snow."
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> the blog www.danford.net