AOPA credit card --- WARNING.

[Christopher Brian Colohan]

I will only post once on this topic, 'cause I think it is rather off
topic and the thread needs to go away...

Roger > writes:
> Credit cards are good for two things:
> Convenience and emergencies:
> They are NOT good for credit!
>
> Even a signature loan will be half or less for the interest. That is
> why there are companies out there making a business of saving credit
> card users money.
<snip>
> My own credit card co sends me those darn checks (Instant case) and
> other incentives. Of course if I use any of that the interest is
> charged from day one. There is no grace period to the due date.

Actually, sometimes those cheques are a good deal. AMEX sent me some
cheques with a 4.99% rate (fixed for the duration of the loan) and a
$50 transaction fee. I was in the market for a small unsecured loan,
and following the conventional wisdom went to talk to my bank. My
banker took one look at the terms on those cheques, and told me that
he could not come anywhere near matching those rates. (At the time
small unsecured bank loans were going for something like 12%.)

The only gotcha? After using the cheque I had to throw the AMEX card
in a drawer and not use it anymore. According to the fine print if I
used the card at all then any charges I made would get paid off last,
after the low interest debt was paid off. And those purchases would
be charged a much higher rate of interest. They were counting on
customers being stupid enough to ring up more charges after using the
cheque.

It seems strange to me that AMEX is trying to train its customers to
_not_ use their card, but that is not my problem...

Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: PGP: finger
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751

[Matt Whiting]

Rich wrote:
> Yes... basic values used to be taught at home by parents and family.
> Since they are not (in general), it sure seems they should be taught in
> school.
>
> It always puzzled me that there is emphasis on learning that the "Battle
> of Hastings was fought in 1066" and how to solve quadratic equations
> (When will you EVER use this information in real life?) and nothing
> taught about REAL life skills kids lack and really need.

Well, maybe I shouldn't admit this, but I do (did anyway) use quadratic
equations and significant other math in my day job. However, I
understand and agree with your point. I'm not against history or
advanced math, but I do think teaching a little more basics on personal
financial management would help a lot of young folks as they start out
on their own. I had a pretty good grounding growing up, but also read a
lot of financial books very early in my college and working career and
it helped tremendously.


Matt

[Jay Beckman]

"Vingo Optomalicious" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Chuck" > wrote:
>
>> And some people like me are financially strapped and do not have the
>> money
>> to save after the bills are paid. In fact, I was putting $20 a paycheck
>> into
>> the credit union at work trying to save a little bit and had to stop
>> making
>> that deposit because I needed that $20 per pay period just to make bills.
>> In
>> the last 3 years, our health insurance at work has gone up 135% and
>> co-pays,
>> etc have risen also. I have 3 prescriptions, my wife has 5 and our son
>> has
>> one. That's around $150 per month or a little more. Both vehicles are
>> paid
>> off, so no car payments. We rent a house and it is actually about $100
>> below
>> the going rate for our area. Electric bills are out the roof. Do I need
>> to
>> keep going? In otherwords, by me living paycheck to paycheck, and my
>> yearly
>> raises at 3% if I am lucky that don't even cover cost of living, I am
>> doing
>> everything that I can to stay afloat and will resort to whatever means I
>> have to to provide for my wife and son. I wish that you people that make
>> $100,000 a year, own airplanes, drive Lexus and Mercedes and live in half
>> million dollar houses could understand...
>
> You can thank the chimp administration for the rise in health care and
> prescription drug costs.
>
> All republicans deserve to be murdered.

"PLONK"

[Jay Honeck]

> So what's the difference between a "contingency" reservation and no
> reservation?

One main difference: We have all of your information, which makes check-in
a breeze. You will also get preference over "contingency" reservations that
are taken after yours -- although, to be honest, we only get a couple of
them a week.

It's very unusual for our guests to not have a credit card, as you can
imagine -- and most people prefer to have guaranteed reservation.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Hotels are like airlines they overbook in the expectation that there are
> no shows and everyone gets sorted. Often though everyone shows up and some
> one gets stiffed.

Actually, we NEVER over-book. Over-booking is only done by unscrupulous
hotels.

In return, however, we expect that you will actually show up when we hold a
suite for you.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> So what you're saying then, is that you basically don't accept anything
> BUT guaranteed reservations. Do you understand that this sounds kind of
> like a racket to me? You get guaranteed reservations and HOPE the people
> don't show up so you can collect their money without providing anything.
> You can also collect double for the room if they don't show up and
> somebody else comes along and takes the room. Is this even legal?

Mike, the last thing we want is for someone not to show up for a
reservation. We enjoy having pilots and guests come stay with us -- that
is, after all, why we're here -- and the last thing we want is to ****
anyone off.

That said, we simply can't afford to get stiffed by dishonorable or
disorganized people who reserve suites with little intention of showing up.
With only 27 suites, we're just too small to have that happen without
causing us financial hardship. Thus, we "guarantee" their suite in return
for them "guaranteeing" that they will show up.

This is made clear from the very start of the reservation process -- no one
gets caught by surprise, and they have ample opportunity to back out of the
reservation before we get off the phone. Bottom line: If you think there's
a chance that you MIGHT not be able to make it -- don't make a guaranteed
reservation.

If you absolutely want to know that you have a place to stay, and that we
will turn away anyone and everyone who offers us more for the suite (which,
believe it or not, happens on Iowa football weekends. I've had guys offer
me ANY amount of money to "make a suite happen"...) then guarantee that you
will show up by reserving it with your preauthorized credit card.

We are the only hotel (that I know of) that makes an exception to this rule
for pilots. For them we offer our "IFR Cancellation Policy" which allows
them to cancel right up to 6 PM the night of their arrival -- without
penalty -- if conditions drop below VFR minimums along their route of
flight. This is to protect pilots from that unpredicted crappy weather
along their route of flight -- but they STILL have to call us and let us
know by 6PM, or they will be charged for the suite. Again, this is made
completely clear when they make their reservation.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mike V.]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Rich wrote:
>> Yes... basic values used to be taught at home by parents and family.
>> Since they are not (in general), it sure seems they should be taught in
>> school.
>>
>> It always puzzled me that there is emphasis on learning that the "Battle
>> of Hastings was fought in 1066" and how to solve quadratic equations
>> (When will you EVER use this information in real life?) and nothing
>> taught about REAL life skills kids lack and really need.
>
> Well, maybe I shouldn't admit this, but I do (did anyway) use quadratic
> equations and significant other math in my day job. However, I understand
> and agree with your point. I'm not against history or advanced math, but
> I do think teaching a little more basics on personal financial management
> would help a lot of young folks as they start out on their own. I had a
> pretty good grounding growing up, but also read a lot of financial books
> very early in my college and working career and it helped tremendously.

You are so very clever.

[mike regish]

I understand all that. What I'm still not clear on is this. If I make a
contingency reservation and show up on time, will I have a room or not. It
sounds from what you say that if somebody shows up ahead of me, they can
take my room and I will be stuck without.

mike regish

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:aZsqd.479630$D%.73205@attbi_s51...
>
> If you absolutely want to know that you have a place to stay, and that we
> will turn away anyone and everyone who offers us more for the suite
> (which, believe it or not, happens on Iowa football weekends. I've had
> guys offer me ANY amount of money to "make a suite happen"...) then
> guarantee that you will show up by reserving it with your preauthorized
> credit card.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Matt Whiting]

Mike V. wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Rich wrote:
>>
>>>Yes... basic values used to be taught at home by parents and family.
>>>Since they are not (in general), it sure seems they should be taught in
>>>school.
>>>
>>>It always puzzled me that there is emphasis on learning that the "Battle
>>>of Hastings was fought in 1066" and how to solve quadratic equations
>>>(When will you EVER use this information in real life?) and nothing
>>>taught about REAL life skills kids lack and really need.
>>
>>Well, maybe I shouldn't admit this, but I do (did anyway) use quadratic
>>equations and significant other math in my day job. However, I understand
>>and agree with your point. I'm not against history or advanced math, but
>>I do think teaching a little more basics on personal financial management
>>would help a lot of young folks as they start out on their own. I had a
>>pretty good grounding growing up, but also read a lot of financial books
>>very early in my college and working career and it helped tremendously.
>
>
> You are so very clever.
>
>

And you're obviously not.

[Jay Honeck]

>I understand all that. What I'm still not clear on is this. If I make a
>contingency reservation and show up on time, will I have a room or not. It
>sounds from what you say that if somebody shows up ahead of me, they can
>take my room and I will be stuck without.

A contingency reservation cannot be bumped by another contingency
reservation. We'll hold it for you until your announced arrival time (that
you tell us when you make the reservation). If you haven't shown up by
then, we'll actually try to call you. If no answer, we'll release it for
walk-ins.

A contingency reservation CAN be bumped by a guaranteed reservation,
however. We will hold your contingent reservation as long as possible, but
if it's the last suite available, and someone offers to guarantee payment
with their credit card, we'll take guaranteed money every time.

This is, of course, made abundantly clear at the time you make your
reservation. In actuality, most contingent reservations work out just
fine -- but on a Saturday night or during football season, I wouldn't
recommend them.

If you want your suite guaranteed, Mike, you've gotta guarantee it. It's
entirely up to you.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mike V.]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>Well, maybe I shouldn't admit this, but I do (did anyway) use quadratic
>>>equations and significant other math in my day job. However, I
>>>understand and agree with your point. I'm not against history or
>>>advanced math, but I do think teaching a little more basics on personal
>>>financial management would help a lot of young folks as they start out on
>>>their own. I had a pretty good grounding growing up, but also read a lot
>>>of financial books very early in my college and working career and it
>>>helped tremendously.
>>
>> You are so very clever.
>
> And you're obviously not.

Your opinion does not count (at least, not to anyone other than yourself)

[Harlo Peterson]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Y0cqd.98323$V41.97674@attbi_s52...

> We are now in the middle of "the paper chase" with VISA -- but I guarantee
> we will lose the battle even though we followed standard procedure to the
> letter.

Do you have any other legal recourse to this noshow? Would it be worthwhile
for a collection agency to get involved?

[Matt Whiting]

Mike V. wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>>Well, maybe I shouldn't admit this, but I do (did anyway) use quadratic
>>>>equations and significant other math in my day job. However, I
>>>>understand and agree with your point. I'm not against history or
>>>>advanced math, but I do think teaching a little more basics on personal
>>>>financial management would help a lot of young folks as they start out on
>>>>their own. I had a pretty good grounding growing up, but also read a lot
>>>>of financial books very early in my college and working career and it
>>>>helped tremendously.
>>>
>>>You are so very clever.
>>
>>And you're obviously not.
>
>
> Your opinion does not count (at least, not to anyone other than yourself)

Actually, I get paid rather well for my opinions.

Matt

[David Lesher]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:


>Amex had nothing to do with it. You just found a hotel that unscrupulously
>overbooks, but still has a conscience about doing so.

I disagree. It's my understanding tha AMEX really holds the
line on denied rooms; the original hotel eats the cost of
the replacement room, or they lose their merchant account.

Of course, it's possible that likely everything else about Amex;
this is now watered down, and/or not the case at all any more.

[There was a time Amex was really useful -- they got me a new card
the same day, in Guatemala City, on a US holiday.]

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[David Lesher]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:


>American Express is dying -- and Diner's Club barely exists. 92% of our
>guests use Visa/Mastercard (they really *are* the same, BTW), 4% use
>Discover, and 4% pay cash.

At one point, DC had the USGovt. account, but I think they are long
out of it.

In some cities, the major eateries rebelled against Amex; and they
cut their tax.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Roger]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:06:42 -0500, Matt Whiting
> wrote:

>Rich wrote:
>> Yes... basic values used to be taught at home by parents and family.
>> Since they are not (in general), it sure seems they should be taught in
>> school.
>>
>> It always puzzled me that there is emphasis on learning that the "Battle
>> of Hastings was fought in 1066" and how to solve quadratic equations
>> (When will you EVER use this information in real life?) and nothing
>> taught about REAL life skills kids lack and really need.
>
>Well, maybe I shouldn't admit this, but I do (did anyway) use quadratic
>equations and significant other math in my day job. However, I

I find I use a lot of trig, but I don't think I've ever used the
Quadratic since graduation, nor have I used any of that Calculus.
Well... I did use it in grad school, but I never had to use it in
software design like I did in college.

Even with a minor in math I sure don't miss the stuff.

>understand and agree with your point. I'm not against history or
>advanced math, but I do think teaching a little more basics on personal
>financial management would help a lot of young folks as they start out

The local high schools are doing that now. I could have used it back
when I was in high school. At least when I was in college they had
developed "Writing across the curriculum", meaning you wrote at least
three or four papers in each class, not just English.

Had they taught even basics in finance along with investing I think
we'd be far better off today.

24 years ago I had just gotten out of a marriage, owed so much money I
thought I'd never get out of debt and still managed to get my daughter
through college and number one son out on his own. (I got the kids)

>on their own. I had a pretty good grounding growing up, but also read a
>lot of financial books very early in my college and working career and
>it helped tremendously.

Thanks to the level headedness of my folks I have a pretty good head
for finances. I was raised on a small farm and actually farmed long
enough after high school I knew that was not for me. It took me 29
years to get back into college, but I did well. Started on my masters,
but quit for a good job. Worked 7 years and retired. It'd be nice if
retirement paid a bit better, but my wife and I can do most of the
things we like. We don't drive new cars. We pretty much drive them
till the wheels are ready to fall off although my TA had a bit of help
from a GMC. Even then the wheels didn't fall off, but the front ones
ended up under the dash.

I firmly believe if the youth of today were given a good education in
finances, learned to conserve while young, were willing to wait a few
years before starting a family, were willing to settle for an economy
car instead of a big truck or SUV, and put every cent allowed into
their company's CAP (or invested it wisely) they could retire
millionaires. Giving up a little early one can pay really big later
on in life.

There will always be those who don't make it, or get caught, but if
they are willing to move and hunt for the good jobs, save early on
while planning ahead *most* will do well.
>

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Matt

[Roger]

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:21:43 GMT, "RS" > wrote:

>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>news:3Lspd.391816$wV.73568@attbi_s54...
>>> But tell me, what will you do when home, auto and commercial proprerty
>>> loan companies hike their rates just because they feel like it? Even if
>>> you pay on time, every time. All they need to do is lobby hard enough to
>>> put it into law and you are totally screwed.
>>>
>>> What then, Mr Clever Guy?
>>
>> I'm not following you. If you pay "on time, every time" -- credit card
>> companies CAN'T charge you any interest.
>
>What would you do if they hiked the APR on your auto or home loan just
>because they felt like it, even if you had a perfect payment history? Well,

Does the phrase; Adjustable Rate Mortgage ring a bell.

>that's what the credit card companys are doing now - they are changing the
>rules mid-stream. Credit is credit - regardless what it is for. You guys on
>your high moral horses about paying credit cards off every month do not
>impress me (unless you have zero credit - no home, auto, commercial loans at
>all).

That doesn't quite make sense.
They are not changing the rules. They are there in B & W (color in
some cases). In every card I've had over the last 10 years they have
stated they could change the rates at any time they deemed necessary.

The point is: If you really need to borrow, which nearly every one
does at one time or another, do it sensibly.

Like the checks they offer at very low interest rates. Is there a
catch? Generally the answer is yes.

Move your loans to our card and pay only 3%? Look in the fine print
and that may only be good for a couple of months and then the rates go
to 18% APR, or even higher. Have enough equity to cover them? Take
out a second mortgage to pay them off. Most likely the rates will
only be about a third of that of the CC. Then cut up every card
except one and limit its use to absolutely necessary items only.

OTOH car and home loans get bought and sold just like any other
commodity. Some have some pretty high penalties for paying off early.

*IF* I need money I can write checks against the equity in our home
loan. I could get a signature loan. The interest is only slightly
higher than the mortgage which is a small fraction of what a credit
card would charge. It's also treated as a separate loan and doesn't go
against the home loan... unless we'd default.

For the person who has 3 or 4 credit cards, finding one company with a
low introductory APR for 6 months might be their way out of a deep
hole that's been getting deeper.

You have to be careful about changing CC companies though as each
credit check goes against your rating.

Be it a CC or bank loan they have to tell you up front, just what it's
going to cost. Be skeptical of the TV adds. Take time to read the
fine print no matter how restless the loan officer gets. <:-)) Those
companies are going to get their money one way or another

Credit card companies usually make a fixed amount off every sale.
Probably on the order of 5%. You can say the merchant pays that, but
who isn't going to pass it on to the customer?
When the CC companies start pushing the rates up it is for one of two
reasons. General rates are going up, and/or they have a lot of
customers defaulting on payments. CC rates are so high because there
are so many defaulting on payments.
>

Credit cards are the easiest way to borrow money. They are also the
most expensive/poorest way, with maybe the exception of the local
loan sharks.

I don't know if the law has changed, but at one time the credit card
companies could charge at least double what an individual could for a
loan.

BTW, every since the checking account has existed, people have
depended on the time for a check to clear. That is coming to an end
as are the jobs flying canceled checks. In the not too distant
future, when you write a check, it will be debited against your
account and credited to the payee almost instantly. It's this way in
some areas now, but it's becoming universal.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[David Lesher]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:


>Amex had nothing to do with it. You just found a hotel that unscrupulously
>overbooks, but still has a conscience about doing so.

It's my understanding that AMEX really holds the line on denied
rooms; the original hotel eats the cost of the replacement room, or
they lose their merchant account.

Of course, it's possible that like everything else about Amex; this
is now watered down, and/or not the case at all any more.

[There was an era when Amex was really useful -- they got me a new
card the same day, in Guatemala City, on a US holiday.]

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Jay Honeck]

> Do you have any other legal recourse to this noshow? Would it be
> worthwhile for a collection agency to get involved?

In my experience, collection agencies are not the kind of organizations we
want representing us.

Sometimes we just have to realize that the world is full of scum, and a few
of these low-lifes will stay at our inn.

(Or, as in this case, WON'T stay at our inn.... ;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, David Lesher > said:
>[There was an era when Amex was really useful -- they got me a new
>card the same day, in Guatemala City, on a US holiday.]

Yeah, I got a corporate AMEX delivered to my hotel room in Madrid when I
told my company that I couldn't pay a $250/day hotel room bill (times 60
days) on my own personal credit card.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Of course, I also got weird looks when I said that, as a kid, I watched the
toast brown in a toaster to see whether it browned at a linear or exponential
rate. -- Jeff Davis

[Jay Honeck]

> Yeah, I got a corporate AMEX delivered to my hotel room in Madrid when I
> told my company that I couldn't pay a $250/day hotel room bill (times 60
> days) on my own personal credit card.

Wow -- I hope you were staying at the Taj Majal.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
>> Yeah, I got a corporate AMEX delivered to my hotel room in Madrid when I
>> told my company that I couldn't pay a $250/day hotel room bill (times 60
>> days) on my own personal credit card.
>
>Wow -- I hope you were staying at the Taj Majal.

Nope, the Melia Castilla. Actually, come to think of it, it was only
$200/day after we found that (since we were working with IBM) we could
stay on the "Servicio Real" (Royal Service) floors at the IBM corporate
rate instead of the "soak the gringos rate" on their regular floors.

Still, looking on-line, I see that their rates haven't gotten any better.
One site has one room at $252.99/night, and another at $332.99/night.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
char *p="char *p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}

[Corky Scott]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:17:13 -0500, Matt Whiting
> wrote:

>Yes, I think Bush's much more aggressive approach to terrorism has
>helped. Yes, I am considering the lag time, but I'm also considering
>that four years is plenty of time given that this is about how long the
>planning for 9/11 apparently took.

Too bad Bush didn't get aggressive with Al Qaida prior to the attacks,
when being aggressive might have stopped them. Richard Clarke, former
adviser to the Bush White House reported that he could not get the
White House to listen to him or even discuss Al Qaida prior to
September 11, 2001.

The day after the attacks he reported that Rumsfeld demanded that he
find a link connecting Iraq to the attacks despite the common
knowledge that Al Qaida was operating in Afghanistan, not Iraq.
Clarke has said that this demand was so strange that he actually
thought Rumsfeld was joking, at first. Here are his exact words:

"I think they wanted to believe that there was a connection [to Iraq],
but the CIA was sitting there, the FBI was sitting there, I was
sitting there saying we've looked at this issue for years. For years
we've looked and there's just no connection."

So not only did Bush not listen to warnings about the possibility of
an attack on the US using airliners as weapons (the week prior to
9/11/01 Condoleeza Rice gave a speech in which she claimed that our
main security concern is to counter intercontinental ballistic
missiles), he eventually attacked a country that was not harboring Al
Qaida operatives, a country who's dictator the leader of Al Qaida
hated almost as much as America.

Corky Scott

[Jay Honeck]

> Still, looking on-line, I see that their rates haven't gotten any better.
> One site has one room at $252.99/night, and another at $332.99/night.

For those rates, they had better have the Spanish Bikini Team providing full
body massages...

;-)

In our place, that would get you a 1300 sq ft, 2-story townhouse, with full
kitchen, 2 queen bedrooms, 2 baths (one with hot tub) -- and breakfast
delivered -- for TWO nights!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
>> Still, looking on-line, I see that their rates haven't gotten any better.
>> One site has one room at $252.99/night, and another at $332.99/night.

>In our place, that would get you a 1300 sq ft, 2-story townhouse, with full
>kitchen, 2 queen bedrooms, 2 baths (one with hot tub) -- and breakfast
>delivered -- for TWO nights!

Madrid was expensive. A Whopper, fries and a beer at the local Burger
King (yes, they sell beer at Burger King in Spain) was $10.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
[Y]ou should write for the comprehension of the next programmer who
looks at your code, keep it clean and sensible, and *not* play
any obscure Jedi mind-tricks. -- Anthony de Boer

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Still, looking on-line, I see that their rates haven't gotten any better.
>>One site has one room at $252.99/night, and another at $332.99/night.
>
>
> For those rates, they had better have the Spanish Bikini Team providing full
> body massages...
>
> ;-)
>
> In our place, that would get you a 1300 sq ft, 2-story townhouse, with full
> kitchen, 2 queen bedrooms, 2 baths (one with hot tub) -- and breakfast
> delivered -- for TWO nights!

What about the massages? :-)

Matt

[John Galban]

"Chuck" > wrote in message >...
> "John Galban" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> <snip>
> >
> > I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
> > real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
> > probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
> >
>
> Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I need
> credit from time to time for necessities...
>

Reread my post. I said that if you do need to borrow money, a
credit card is the most expensive (and risky) way to get it, leaving
you even fewer options for luxuries. If a credit card is your only
option, then you're in need of some financial planning.

My point was that the typical credit card agreement exposes you to a
potential finanacial disaster. It allows the issuing bank to put you
into a financial hole that could take years to dig yourself out of.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[David Lesher]

(Paul Tomblin) writes:


>Madrid was expensive. A Whopper, fries and a beer at the local Burger
>King (yes, they sell beer at Burger King in Spain) was $10.

Try Martinique. I emptied out the mini-bar and bought cheese, meat
and French break to meet per-diem. Sunday I ate at the tourist hotel's
buffet brunch and it was $40.00...

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[David Lesher]

Roger > writes:



>BTW, every since the checking account has existed, people have
>depended on the time for a check to clear. That is coming to an end
>as are the jobs flying canceled checks. In the not too distant
>future, when you write a check, it will be debited against your
>account and credited to the payee almost instantly. It's this way in
>some areas now, but it's becoming universal.


Make that "past" as Check21 went into effect this month. Note your deposits
STILL 'anti-float'....

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Dave Butler]

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Unfortunately, our schools and often
> our parents simply don't teach people good financial management skills.
> And society in general certainly encourages financial recklessness and
> people without the skills and will power to handle it can easily get in
> trouble.

Reluctantly dipping my toe in this thread and finding something on which to
agree with Matt :-)

My parents, bless 'em, did their best to give me a good start in life and I
certainly thank them for all they did for me, but they couldn't pass on
knowledge they didn't have. They didn't know much about how to manage money, and
I inherited their ignorance. I didn't know how much I didn't know. I've been to
the brink and seen down into the abyss. I'm still learning. If you (collective
you) are like me, take the initiative to get some help, training, education in
managing money, then apply the things you learn. It's not too late... and don't
forget to pass along what you learn to your kids.

Dave

[mike regish]

Did you ever think that maybe it's not just pilots that find themselves in
circumstances beyond their control? I just hate to see anybody lumping whole
groups into a category like "scum" or "low-life" unless the facts warrant
it. I'm sure there are some, but I'm equally sure that there are some
no-shows that have legitimate reasons. Hopefully, they do everything they
can to contact you in a timely manner, but even that's not always possible.

mike regish

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:AbFqd.108236$V41.44108@attbi_s52...
>
> Sometimes we just have to realize that the world is full of scum, and a
> few of these low-lifes will stay at our inn.
>
> (Or, as in this case, WON'T stay at our inn.... ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Mike V.]

"David Lesher" > wrote in message
...
> Roger > writes:
>
>>BTW, every since the checking account has existed, people have
>>depended on the time for a check to clear. That is coming to an end
>>as are the jobs flying canceled checks. In the not too distant
>>future, when you write a check, it will be debited against your
>>account and credited to the payee almost instantly. It's this way in
>>some areas now, but it's becoming universal.
>
>
> Make that "past" as Check21 went into effect this month. Note your
> deposits
> STILL 'anti-float'....

Whereas many other places on the planet have been doing electronic check
clearing for years and years... and years. Banking systems in the US are
archaic, dinosaurs...

[Jay Honeck]

> Did you ever think that maybe it's not just pilots that find themselves in
> circumstances beyond their control? I just hate to see anybody lumping
> whole groups into a category like "scum" or "low-life" unless the facts
> warrant it. I'm sure there are some, but I'm equally sure that there are
> some no-shows that have legitimate reasons. Hopefully, they do everything
> they can to contact you in a timely manner, but even that's not always
> possible.

I've yet to meet a no-show that even attempted to contact us. In fact, I
have yet to meet a no-show that even remembered they had a "guaranteed
reservation" until they got the bill, and disputed it.

These are dishonorable (or disorganized -- or both), unscrupulous people
with no intention of honoring their word. We practically bludgeon people
with our cancellation policy, stressing the importance of calling us if they
needed to cancel, going all the way to sending a reminder postcard a week in
advance of their arrival -- so it's hard to portray these folks as "victims
of the system"...

Only once have I sent a no-show a free night's stay certificate after
charging them -- and that was after the guy told me that his wife had gone
into premature labor! That seemed like a pretty good reason to not show
up...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 08:08:31 -0500, Ron Rosenfeld
> wrote:

>Doesn't sound as if you were "hassled". Just caught in traffic.

No, I wasn't hassled at all.

When the daughter & son-in-law came home that December, they put all
the high-value stuff with no proof of American origin into the Subaru
station wagon, under piles of dirty diapers and children's clothes.
Both the children had measles.

The bulky stuff that was NAFTA-proof went into the U-Haul truck with a
Microsoft Excel inventory and proof of origin.

The boat they'd built traveled separately, through the wilds of Maine
in order to avoid the need to hire state trooper escorts in New York
and Massachusetts.

The whole move was accomplished without paying any duty, and only the
usual half-hour inching through U.S. customs on this side of the big
bridge.

I suspect that most of the delay was post-9/11 examinations of cargo.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:32:27 -0500, Corky Scott
> wrote:

>
>Too bad Bush didn't get aggressive with Al Qaida prior to the attacks,
>when being aggressive might have stopped them.

Highly unlikely, since he'd only taken office in January. The lads
were already in place by that time.

It was the Clinton administration which would have had to be more
aggressive with Al Qaeda.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 15:39:08 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>> All republicans deserve to be murdered.
>
>"PLONK"

Evidently I already had him in the kill file.

It's hard to believe there are such sickos walking around unsecured.
But it does make it a bit easier to understand the minds that flew
the airplanes into the World Trade Center, doesn't it?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[bryan chaisone]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<n3eqd.164904$R05.161886@attbi_s53>...
> > That ain't right. I can see the guarantee thing during a known busy
> > weekend, but if I make a reservation (contingency) and show up at or ahead
> > of the reservation time just to find out you don't have a room because
> > somebody else showed up before me with cash, I'm hauling somebody into
> > court.
>
> With only 27 suites to rent, we're in no position to play the "will they
> show up?" game.
>
> Which is why, if you want a guaranteed reservation, you've got to guarantee
> that you're gonna show up. Since wiring money in advance is pretty awkward,
> we must do it the credit card way -- even though I absolutely despise the
> credit card companies, and it pains me to no end that I must pay those
> *******s 4% of everything I take in.
>
> But, if we didn't accept credit cards, our longevity would be measured in
> weeks. Sadly, very few guests actually pay with cash.
>
> (P.S. Hey, while I'm bitching, let's talk about the 5% I've got to pay to
> the State of Iowa, and the 7% I've got to pay to Johnson County. Yep, a
> whopping 16% of everything we bring in, off the top, goes to someone other
> than Mary and me. Remember that next time you wonder why it costs so
> damned much for a hotel room.)
>
> (P.P.S. Of course, it would be much worse if we were part of a chain, or
> used on-line booking agencies like Travelocity. Then we'd be giving away
> upwards of 46% of everything we earned.)
>
> (P.P.P.S. Which, by the way, is why we can afford to *include* a delivered
> breakfast on a suite for which we only charge $59.95 per night, while the
> chains cannot. That same breakfast, delivered to your suite at the
> Sheraton, by itself will set you back over $40!)


Just out of curiousity, Jay. If someone were to pay cash, will you
split the 16% with them?

Bryan

[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:38:03 GMT, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>right. But your hotel is the only one that I've heard of that doesn't
>take American Express or Diners. I don't have a Visa card
>(just a debit card)

I don't know about hotels, but many enterprises don't accept anything
but MC and Visa. I presently carry a Delta/Amex card (12,500 free
miles for signing up, and no fee for the first 12 months) but I make
sure to carry a backup Visa card in my wallet.

To get back on subject, I don't use my AOPA credit card except when
shopping at Sporty's. I am reimbursed for money spent on gasoline, and
the amount I spend isn't enough to make it worthwhile to file for the
rebate.

The one time I went to an FBO for training, where credit cards were
accepted, they didn't take MasteCard! (Chandler AZ.)

Anyhow, I don't particularly like MasterCard. It seems rather low-rent
to me.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 14:05:24 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>4% pay cash.

Wow. The only reasons I can come up with for paying cash for a hotel
is 1) you earn a lot of money under the IRS radar, and this is a way
to spend it; or 2) the lady with you is not your wife, and your wife
or her lawyer has access to your credit-card records.

It is now almost unheard of not to have a credit card that pays you a
1 percent rebate or 1 frequent-flier mile per dollar spent, if not 2.
Who would not take such a discount?

Furthermore, it's more difficult and time-consuming to pay with cash.
I now use my credit card at the post office for transactions even
under five dollars. (Double miles for the USPS!)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 03:16:22 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
> wrote:

>I disagree. It's my understanding tha AMEX really holds the
>line on denied rooms; the original hotel eats the cost of
>the replacement room, or they lose their merchant account.

The only time I was ever denied a room (members of a convention had
overstayed their reservations, and it is against the law in DC to
evict a tenant willing to pay for his room), the hotel called a taxi,
gave five dollars to the driver, and instructed him to take me to a
sister hotel, where I had a much finer room than I would have been
willing to pay for.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[bryan chaisone]

"Mike V." > wrote in message news:<5c7qd.107089$5K2.93270@attbi_s03>...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "Mike V." > wrote in message
> > news:od1qd.675986$8_6.344569@attbi_s04...
> >>
> >> Let me try to explain this to you even though you are clearly too damn
> >> stupid to understand: some people do not have enough money to get by, let
> >> alone some extra cash to set aside for emergencies.
> >>
> >> GET IT??
> >
> > I get it. And there are people who are in poor financial situations
> > because they've made poor decisions. Do you get that?
>
> So making poor decisions is an excuse for allowing corporations to screw
> people over double when they are down? There is a limit to everything, and
> the credit card co's have crossed the line. Joe Public deserves the same
> sort of protections the credit card co's have been given by congress to ****
> the average consumer.

So being stupid is an excuse to let others pay for your stupidity?

Bryan

[bryan chaisone]

"Mike V." > wrote in message news:<B38qd.154941$HA.64123@attbi_s01>...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >>
> >> So making poor decisions is an excuse for allowing corporations to screw
> >> people over double when they are down?
> >
> > That's not the issue.
>
> It absolutely is the issue. This is just another example of how this country
> is ruled by faceless corporations instead of real people. Could you imagine
> how much backlash small business owners would experience if they used the
> same sort of strong arm tactics on their customers? They can't do it because
> they do not have the money to lobby for protections the corporations are
> routinely awarded by congress. Ever seen how little tax these large
> corporations pay?.... a **** load less than I pay in my (small) business.
>
> There has to be balance to be fair.

Stupid people should be excused from having to pay the balance that they rack up?

[Ron Natalie]

Cub Driver wrote:

> I don't know about hotels, but many enterprises don't accept anything
> but MC and Visa. I presently carry a Delta/Amex card (12,500 free
> miles for signing up, and no fee for the first 12 months) but I make
> sure to carry a backup Visa card in my wallet.

I use my AMEX (one of the first cards I ever got, member since 1981)
when travelling and I carry a second AMEX which is a freebie that has
my COSTCO membership card tacked on it. It only gets used at COSTCO.
>
> To get back on subject, I don't use my AOPA credit card except when
> shopping at Sporty's.

I use my AOPA card only for airplane expenses. Get my rebate plus
it keeps the airplane stuff orgainzed seperately. This was especially
handy back when I had the plane on leaseback and I needed those expense
numbers for tax purposes. Now I probably would be better off not knowing
:-)

> The one time I went to an FBO for training, where credit cards were
> accepted, they didn't take MasteCard! (Chandler AZ.)
>
> Anyhow, I don't particularly like MasterCard. It seems rather low-rent
> to me.

I have a Visa from my credit union and a MasterCard from my insurance
company. Both have pretty good customer support. I chopped up my
BankOne Visa after numerous customer support problems (they called me
on the "I've got the scissors in my hand" statement, which oddly worked
for to get the Discover customer service weenie to fix my account).
I've got one of those Discover keychain thingies that I only have used
once in a long time (I keep it because it's handy when I'm out running
and only take my car key with me). The only other card I have is a
Victoria's Secret card (which gets me all sorts of interesting junk
mail like offers for free personal fittings...which Margy refuses to allow me
to follow up on, and occasionally a $10 gift card (for my birthday) or
some other VS freebie (Margy gets the benefit of these).

[Jay Honeck]

> Just out of curiousity, Jay. If someone were to pay cash, will you
> split the 16% with them?

And risk jail time? Not.

The Gummint takes tax collection *very* seriously, for some reason.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Wow. The only reasons I can come up with for paying cash for a hotel
> is 1) you earn a lot of money under the IRS radar, and this is a way
> to spend it; or 2) the lady with you is not your wife, and your wife
> or her lawyer has access to your credit-card records.

There are apparently a fair number of people who have had their credit cards
yanked. I'm always amazed how many credit card preauthorizations come back
"Declined" -- and often from top notch-looking people.

Since we don't accept checks, their only other option is to pay cash.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

Cub Driver wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 03:16:22 +0000 (UTC), David Lesher
> > wrote:
>
>
>>I disagree. It's my understanding tha AMEX really holds the
>>line on denied rooms; the original hotel eats the cost of
>>the replacement room, or they lose their merchant account.
>
>
> The only time I was ever denied a room

I had the Baltimore Hyatt (a dump by the way) try to deny me a
room once. I pointed out that I had reserved it on my AMEX and
oddly one of their "reserve" rooms became available. AMEX has
good customer support people. They were the easiest by far
to dispute a charge (which I have done twice).

Plenty of people willing to offer me credit, those who have crappy
support, get the Scissor treatment. I usually have a few in the
drawer because they were giving something away for enrolling (Margy
needed at hat at Oshkosh once so we got EAA Visa cards lying around
in the drawer). It's only once in a great while that someone will
notice that I have NEVER charged anything on their cards and inquire
or cancel the card over it.

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Wow. The only reasons I can come up with for paying cash for a hotel
>>is 1) you earn a lot of money under the IRS radar, and this is a way
>>to spend it; or 2) the lady with you is not your wife, and your wife
>>or her lawyer has access to your credit-card records.
>
>
> There are apparently a fair number of people who have had their credit cards
> yanked. I'm always amazed how many credit card preauthorizations come back
> "Declined" -- and often from top notch-looking people.
>
Actually, I used to have an account that regularly came up declined
even though it was in good standing. Evidentally my buying habits
kept triggering their security system. It caused me a lot of grief.
I told them I had the scissors in my hand and they could either figure
out how to adjust things to keep me as a customer or I could terminate
the account right then and there.

It was a pain, but I switched all the stuff I have set up to direct
bill to that card and I had to memorize a new card number for online/
phone purchases.

[John Harlow]

> I use my AMEX (one of the first cards I ever got, member since 1981)
> when travelling and I carry a second AMEX which is a freebie that has
> my COSTCO membership card tacked on it. It only gets used at COSTCO.

AMEX used to be all the rage for some reason. They remind me of avocodo
colored stoves. Don't they still have some unavoiadable yearly fee - no
matter how long you've been a "member since"?

And they still offer no payback, right?

What reason could there possibly be to still have one of those dinosaurs,
aside from that "member since" sillyness?

[John Harlow]

> Plenty of people willing to offer me credit, those who have crappy
> support, get the Scissor treatment. I usually have a few in the
> drawer because they were giving something away for enrolling (Margy
> needed at hat at Oshkosh once so we got EAA Visa cards lying around
> in the drawer).

For those interested in improving their credit ratings: it can be
detrimental to have several open credit lines (with balances or not) as
potential lenders will consider the possibility of you running up balances
and not being able to pay their debt back. Make sure you call credit card
companies you have unnecessary credit with and cancel directly with them -
cutting up the card isn't good enough.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> I don't know about hotels, but many enterprises don't accept anything
> but MC and Visa.

I stopped at an FBO in Virginia once that didn't take anything but Discover.
Would've been nice if I'd found that out before filling the tanks.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

[Newps]

Mike V. wrote:

>>
>>
>>Make that "past" as Check21 went into effect this month. Note your
>>deposits
>>STILL 'anti-float'...

Check 21 started to go into effect this month. It will be at least a
year before it is fully in effect, especially in the small places. They
ain't doing it here in Montana yet.

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Just out of curiousity, Jay. If someone were to pay cash, will you
>>split the 16% with them?
>
>
> And risk jail time? Not.
>
> The Gummint takes tax collection *very* seriously, for some reason.

We were hunting last week in northern Montana and stayed at the same Mom
and Pop motel we have for the last 5 years. The lit up sign out front
announces vacancy and that the place is for sale. After BSing with him
for a while and my brother and I paying our bill you learn a few things.
I pay first with my Visa card. My brother pays for his two nights
with a $100 dollar bill, getting twenty something back in change. The
guy lights up like it's Christmas Eve. "Now this REALLY helps" he
says. I say, let me guess, my brother was never here. He says, never
saw him before in my life, see you guys next year. So cash buyers are
always a little more welcome around here than people with plastic.

[Newps]

John Harlow wrote:

>>Plenty of people willing to offer me credit, those who have crappy
>>support, get the Scissor treatment. I usually have a few in the
>>drawer because they were giving something away for enrolling (Margy
>>needed at hat at Oshkosh once so we got EAA Visa cards lying around
>>in the drawer).
>
>
> For those interested in improving their credit ratings: it can be
> detrimental to have several open credit lines (with balances or not) as
> potential lenders will consider the possibility of you running up balances
> and not being able to pay their debt back. Make sure you call credit card
> companies you have unnecessary credit with and cancel directly with them -
> cutting up the card isn't good enough.

Actually it's the opposite. You do not want to be closing down a bunch
of cards where the only reson is you don't need it. Do a google search
on credit rating. Saw a guy on TV explain it. The new system values
the amount of time each of your accounts has been open. A bunch of
accounts open a short time and then closed is very bad. In fact a
twentysomething kid is not able to get as high a credit score as an
average 50 something simply because of the time factor.

[John Harlow]

>>
>> For those interested in improving their credit ratings: it can be
>> detrimental to have several open credit lines (with balances or not)
>> as potential lenders will consider the possibility of you running up
>> balances and not being able to pay their debt back. Make sure you
>> call credit card companies you have unnecessary credit with and
>> cancel directly with them - cutting up the card isn't good enough.
>
> Actually it's the opposite. You do not want to be closing down a
> bunch of cards where the only reson is you don't need it. Do a
> google search on credit rating. Saw a guy on TV explain it. The new
> system values the amount of time each of your accounts has been open.
> A bunch of accounts open a short time and then closed is very bad. In fact
> a twentysomething kid is not able to get as high a credit
> score as an average 50 something simply because of the time factor.

Yes, a few long term, responsibly used accounts will improve a rating, but a
dozen stagnent accounts with potentially high debt loads can be seen as a
liablility, plus exposes one to identity theft...

http://www.creditcards.com/dos-and-donts.php?PHPSESSID=97bbf07f8be76fb9b765177692a3f5 c8

[Ron Natalie]

John Harlow wrote:
>>I use my AMEX (one of the first cards I ever got, member since 1981)
>>when travelling and I carry a second AMEX which is a freebie that has
>>my COSTCO membership card tacked on it. It only gets used at COSTCO.
>
>
> AMEX used to be all the rage for some reason. They remind me of avocodo
> colored stoves. Don't they still have some unavoiadable yearly fee - no
> matter how long you've been a "member since"?
>
The traditional Green/Gold/Platimum have annual fees. Amex in order to
compete has added some other card services. My COSTCO Platinum Rewards
card is no annual fee plus it gives me some 1% cashback or something like
that.

[Ron Natalie]

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Mike V. wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> Make that "past" as Check21 went into effect this month. Note your
>>> deposits
>>> STILL 'anti-float'...
>
>
> Check 21 started to go into effect this month. It will be at least a
> year before it is fully in effect, especially in the small places. They
> ain't doing it here in Montana yet.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ain't doing it". While check21 ALLOWS
banks to do the "substitute" electronic clearing...there's no requierment.
If "Fred's Bank" can't deal with electronic clearing, they aren't under
any obligation to handle it.

[John Harlow]

> The traditional Green/Gold/Platimum have annual fees. Amex in order
> to compete has added some other card services. My COSTCO Platinum
> Rewards card is no annual fee plus it gives me some 1% cashback or
> something like that.

Now this is interesting in that as I currently only use a debit card there.
I'm checking into it; thanks for the info!

[Ron Natalie]

John Harlow wrote:
>>The traditional Green/Gold/Platimum have annual fees. Amex in order
>>to compete has added some other card services. My COSTCO Platinum
>>Rewards card is no annual fee plus it gives me some 1% cashback or
>>something like that.
>
>
> Now this is interesting in that as I currently only use a debit card there.
> I'm checking into it; thanks for the info!
>
>
The big advantage to me is that it has my costco info printed on the back
so I don't need a separate costco membership card.

[Matt Whiting]

Newps wrote:
>
>
> John Harlow wrote:
>
>>> Plenty of people willing to offer me credit, those who have crappy
>>> support, get the Scissor treatment. I usually have a few in the
>>> drawer because they were giving something away for enrolling (Margy
>>> needed at hat at Oshkosh once so we got EAA Visa cards lying around
>>> in the drawer).
>>
>>
>>
>> For those interested in improving their credit ratings: it can be
>> detrimental to have several open credit lines (with balances or not)
>> as potential lenders will consider the possibility of you running up
>> balances and not being able to pay their debt back. Make sure you
>> call credit card companies you have unnecessary credit with and cancel
>> directly with them - cutting up the card isn't good enough.
>
>
> Actually it's the opposite. You do not want to be closing down a bunch
> of cards where the only reson is you don't need it. Do a google search
> on credit rating. Saw a guy on TV explain it. The new system values
> the amount of time each of your accounts has been open. A bunch of
> accounts open a short time and then closed is very bad. In fact a
> twentysomething kid is not able to get as high a credit score as an
> average 50 something simply because of the time factor.

So is having a bunch of accounts open! My understanding is that the
credit score factors in not only your current level of debt and your
payment history, but also the amount of debt that you could quickly accrue.


Matt

[Marty Shapiro]

Newps > wrote in news:cdidnVHi1PGCBDHcRVn-
:

>
>
> Mike V. wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>>Make that "past" as Check21 went into effect this month. Note your
>>>deposits
>>>STILL 'anti-float'...
>
> Check 21 started to go into effect this month. It will be at least a
> year before it is fully in effect, especially in the small places. They
> ain't doing it here in Montana yet.

I had an interesting discussion about this today with my bank's
branch manager. Check 21 went into effect October 28th. The larger banks
are using it NOW. Smaller ones have a window to convert over. The Check
21 legislation does NOT require the banks to shorten the holding period.

Today's Yahoo! financial page had an interesting article by Suze
Orman on Check 21. You can find it at http://biz.yahoo.com/pfg/e21check/

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Dick]

"Casey Wilson" > wrote in message
news:z%bqd.2405$wr6.140@trnddc04...
>
> "Dick" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> That is unfortunate, but did you really "lose" money? The card companies
>> make the money from the card holders, not the vendors.
>
> You couldn't be more wrong. Credit card companies charge the
> 'vendors' a fee for each and every transaction.

No, you couldn't be more wrong. Vendors choose the prices, consumers hold
the cards. Consumers make the purchases. The fees are passed to the
consumers.

Again, I asked if he actually "lost money" in services or other goods.


I fought with VISA for four months
> over a disputed charge where they gave credit to the card user and refused
> to refund the transaction fee they charged me.
> The so-called customer used a credit card to sign up two people for a
> conference. I paid the conference center based on a head count that
> included him and his wife. I showed VISA the signed contract that put a
> date limit on refunds. The customer did not provide any proof that they
> had ever cancelled, much less on or before the cancellation date. VISA
> refused to honor the charge and left me holding the bag. We no longer
> accept credit cards for conference registration. I put most of the blame
> on the scumbag deadhead.
> Have you never noticed signs near cash registers that deny the use of
> a credit card for sales below a minimum purchase? Have you never noticed
> some 'vendors' will offer a discount to customers that pay cash?
>
>

[David Lesher]

Cub Driver > writes:


>>4% pay cash.

>Wow. The only reasons I can come up with for paying cash for a hotel
>is 1) you earn a lot of money under the IRS radar, and this is a way
>to spend it; or 2) the lady with you is not your wife, and your wife
>or her lawyer has access to your credit-card records.

Or maybe you're tired of ****tyBank & Choicepoint tracking your
every move, not to mention Fatherland Security and Rev. Ike. There
was a time when what you [legally] did was your own business; but
that's no longer true in this country, unless you make real efforts
on your own behalf. And the most effective is: pay cash. When asked
for your name and address, ask back: Why do you need to know?
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[David Lesher]

"John Harlow" > writes:


>What reason could there possibly be to still have one of those [AMEX] dinosaurs,
>aside from that "member since" sillyness?

When I traveled internationaly on business, it had real advantages.
I once needed to solve a crisis by charging BIGNUM right now; they
didn't even blink.

But yes, the gap has been narrowing for many years...

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Jay Honeck]

> I say, let me guess, my brother was never here. He says, never saw him
> before in my life, see you guys next year. So cash buyers are always a
> little more welcome around here than people with plastic.

One thing I've learned from owning three businesses: Don't start lying
about stuff like this.

Why?

a) I'm a bad liar.
b) I can't remember which lie I told to whom.

So, as much as I despise taxes, I play it straight, my books are clean, and
I sleep well at night.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>>> That is unfortunate, but did you really "lose" money? The card
>>> companies make the money from the card holders, not the vendors.
>>
>> You couldn't be more wrong. Credit card companies charge the
>> 'vendors' a fee for each and every transaction.
>
> No, you couldn't be more wrong. Vendors choose the prices, consumers
> hold the cards. Consumers make the purchases. The fees are passed to the
> consumers.

Actually, the credit card companies dip from both wells, charging consumers
AND vendors.

However, vendors are ALWAYS charged, while consumers are charged only if
they're dumb enough to rack up balances, and pay 22% interest.

Of course, in the end, consumers pay more because of the vendor charges,
too -- but it's not always a 100% pass-through.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Or maybe you're tired of ****tyBank & Choicepoint tracking your
> every move, not to mention Fatherland Security and Rev. Ike. There
> was a time when what you [legally] did was your own business; but
> that's no longer true in this country, unless you make real efforts
> on your own behalf. And the most effective is: pay cash. When asked
> for your name and address, ask back: Why do you need to know?

Um, we ask your name, address and daytime phone number when you make a
reservation, and we verify it at check-in.

We do this not because we're interested in your every move, but so we can
mail back the cell phone charger (or whatever) that an amazing percentage of
our guests accidentally leave in their suite when they check out.

(We've got an amazing collection of them, BTW. I think we have one of every
charger -- and they're all different -- ever made.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[David Lesher]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

>> Or maybe you're tired of ****tyBank & Choicepoint tracking your
>> every move, not to mention Fatherland Security and Rev. Ike. There
>> was a time when what you [legally] did was your own business; but
>> that's no longer true in this country, unless you make real efforts
>> on your own behalf. And the most effective is: pay cash. When asked
>> for your name and address, ask back: Why do you need to know?

>Um, we ask your name, address and daytime phone number when you make a
>reservation, and we verify it at check-in.


I didn't say you, Jay. I said the listbroker business, with their
allies the cc: folks.

Besides, you can save the trouble. Trans Union's Trans-Link/Reverse
Lookup service will take that cc: # you have and give you the address
& phone of the cardholder. Then you can send them junk mail, just like
the big junkmailers..

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[[email protected]]

Only if you take your book keeping seriously ;<)

Bryan

[Cub Driver]

On 30 Nov 2004 05:30:14 -0800, (bryan chaisone)
wrote:

>Just out of curiousity, Jay. If someone were to pay cash, will you
>split the 16% with them?

In the early days of credit cards, a friend of mine often asked for
his 2 percent off if he paid cash, but he seldom got it.

After all, with cash you have the occasional loss to counterfeit
bills, incorrect change, and employee pilfering.

BCC, you could go around the U.S. renting cars and motel rooms with a
check. Businesses bought check insurance.

There's a cost to every system of taking money in exchange for goods
or services.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:10:40 -0500, "John Harlow"
> wrote:

>Don't they still have some unavoiadable yearly fee - no
>matter how long you've been a "member since"?

I will ditch my Delta/Amex card when the 12 free months are up. I
change cards yearly in any event, to get the best deal and to clear
the numbers in all the online places.

>And they still offer no payback, right?

I get a mile a dollar. AMEX also has a cash-back card. I think the
traditional green one is still $100/'year and no payback. I guess
there are lots of people who like the appearance and don't care about
a 1 or 2 percent discount.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:52:34 -0500, "Dick" > wrote:

>No, you couldn't be more wrong. Vendors choose the prices, consumers hold
>the cards. Consumers make the purchases. The fees are passed to the
>consumers.

In that sense, every cost is passed to the consumer. But in the case
of credit cards, only the guy using the card gets the payback.

After all, if every cost were simply passed to the consumer, why are
United and U.S.Airlines in bankruptcy court?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Morgans]

"Cub Driver" > wrote

> In that sense, every cost is passed to the consumer. But in the case
> of credit cards, only the guy using the card gets the payback.
>
> After all, if every cost were simply passed to the consumer, why are
> United and U.S.Airlines in bankruptcy court?
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford

Bingo. They are not passing all the costs along, ant that means they are
not charging as much as the service costs. Hard to imagine why they are
losing money.
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.804 / Virus Database: 546 - Release Date: 11/30/2004

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 06:36:09 -0500, "Morgans" >
wrote:

>
>"Cub Driver" > wrote
>
>> In that sense, every cost is passed to the consumer. But in the case
>> of credit cards, only the guy using the card gets the payback.
>>
>> After all, if every cost were simply passed to the consumer, why are
>> United and U.S.Airlines in bankruptcy court?
>>
>> all the best -- Dan Ford
>
>Bingo. They are not passing all the costs along, ant that means they are
>not charging as much as the service costs. Hard to imagine why they are
>losing money.

In competitive businesses, such as airlines, you can't pass along costs
that are related to inefficiencies in the way you do your business. And you
can't pass along costs if those costs are higher than those of a
competitor.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[bryan chaisone]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<oPqrd.121946$V41.104020@attbi_s52>...
> > I say, let me guess, my brother was never here. He says, never saw him
> > before in my life, see you guys next year. So cash buyers are always a
> > little more welcome around here than people with plastic.
>
> One thing I've learned from owning three businesses: Don't start lying
> about stuff like this.
>
> Why?
>
> a) I'm a bad liar.
> b) I can't remember which lie I told to whom.
>
> So, as much as I despise taxes, I play it straight, my books are clean, and
> I sleep well at night.

Both of them? Yes, it is a good idea to dust your books bookshelfs
every now and then.

Bryan

[Janet]

Chuck wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
>
> > I still don't see how this works as the interest you pay means that you
> > can now have even fewer necessities than if you paid cash for them.
> >
>
> You just don't get it, do ya?
>
> Of the 3 "luxuries" that I said that I have, only one *might* have been
> bought on credit and had to pay any interest. That would be the Dell PC. For
> your information, I did charge that PC, but paid it off with my tax refund 2
> months later. I paid 1 or 2 months of interest. Big deal. Dish Network and
> SBC don't charge any interest that I am aware of.
>
> If you will read, I have ONE credit card (Sears, for school clothes, tools,
> etc) that I am paying interest on. For someone in my financial situation, I
> don't feel that is all that bad.

Ok, I'll bite. If somebody is going to pay interest on one credit card, why
choose a Sears Card (now issued by CitiBank), which usually has an APR in excess
of 21%(!)? Even doing something silly like a balance transfer to a lower rate
card (like one of the many offers that show up offering 0 to 5% APR) would make
more sense.

> Would you stop trying to pry into my personal situation please.

Who is "prying?" into anything? You freely posted your financial situation for
all to view.

[Janet]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> >> Well in my case I don't have a 'real' credit card. I have a debit visa
> >>(work just the same). I keep most of my spendable money in checking then
> >>use the Visa the same as cash. If I can't afford something then I don't
> >>buy it.
> >
> > It does NOT work the same.
> >
> > a) Don't try renting a car.
>
> And don't try using to reserve a hotel suite. Most debit cards (unless it's
> a "dual" debit/credit card) will not work with a preauthorization -- which
> is what is required to make a guaranteed reservation.

Offline debit cards (that is when cards are used without the PIN, i.e.
transactions that use the Visa or Mastercard brand network) do support
preauthorization. That's a Visa/MC requirement. When the card is charged at the
merchant, the amount of sale is preauthorized instantly. On a regular credit
card, this just instantly lowers the current available credit amount by the same
amount. But on an offline debit card is used, it puts a hold on the funds in
the bank account. That means that this amount is unavailable to withdraw, have
checks drawn on, etc. even though the money is still in the account as long as
the hold exists. This is how Visa/MC guarantees that the money will be
available when the charge posts (usually 2-3 days out).

The hold goes away when the charge posts (e.g. actual transaction amount is
charged to the account) or else it times out (1-2 weeks) if no charge actually
posts.

Sometimes a preauthorized hold is put on the card without an actual transaction
amount known yet just to make sure there will be enough funds available.
Examples are pay-at-the-gas-pump transactions (usually $50 is preauthorized
before you start pumping), restaurants where an extra amount is pre-authorized
in expectation of a tip, hotels (where they preauthorize for guaranteed
reservations to make sure the card is valid, and also when you check in to
preauthorize some amount for the expected stay and possible incidentals), rental
car places etc. Also AOPA preauthorized $1 every six months or so if you have
auto-renewal to make sure the card is active. You'll never see that $1 on your
statement because they never post the charge.

It's important to understand that just because an amount is preauthorized does
not necessarily mean that it will post to your account. However it will tie up
that amount, either in credit line for a credit card or actual bank funds for a
debit card.

That is another big disadvantage to using debit cards, especially if it causes
you to bounce checks even though there is bank physically in the account but it
is effectively locked until the hold expires.

By the way, MBNA actually shows you preauthorized charge amounts AND who is
making the charge online. Most other credit issuers do not, although you can
usually see how much is pre-authorized (held) by taking your credit limit,
subtracting known charges and balances, and observing any discrepancy between
that difference and the current available credit. (Rounded to the nearest
dollar).

An "online debit" transaction requires a PIN and uses the ATM/POS networks.
Money is debited instantly and there is no preauthorizing then posting later.

I think cards that only suport online debit (e.g. no mastercard or visa logo)
are much better since if somebody steals it they can't do squat without the
PIN. That no-fraud guarantee on MC/Visa debits is nice, but it doesn't help you
right away while your checking account's been cleaned out, your checks are
bouncing, and your card won't work. Sorry for you if you have automatic
overdraft protection from savings too.

[Morgans]

"Janet" > wrote

snip a bunch of stuff so I can bitch about something<g>

> Sometimes a preauthorized hold is put on the card without an actual
transaction
> amount known yet just to make sure there will be enough funds available.
> Examples are pay-at-the-gas-pump transactions (usually $50 is
preauthorized
> before you start pumping),

What is that all about? $50 for gas on a card? That does not even come
close for me. My full size work van has a tank that will hold 31.6 gallons
of gas, and still be running. With gas at times up to $1.89, I have to let
the pump shut off, and then have to start up another charge to finish
filling up. Let's get real here, gas station owners of America!Thanks, I
feel better now.

Required aviation content: I drove that van up to OSH this year, and it
would have been cheaper to charter a plane, after buying the gas and a new
transmission. (well, almost) :-)
--
Jim in NC

[Janet]

Morgans wrote:

> "Janet" > wrote
>
> snip a bunch of stuff so I can bitch about something<g>
>
> > Sometimes a preauthorized hold is put on the card without an actual
> transaction
> > amount known yet just to make sure there will be enough funds available.
> > Examples are pay-at-the-gas-pump transactions (usually $50 is
> preauthorized
> > before you start pumping),
>
> What is that all about? $50 for gas on a card? That does not even come
> close for me. My full size work van has a tank that will hold 31.6 gallons
> of gas, and still be running. With gas at times up to $1.89, I have to let
> the pump shut off, and then have to start up another charge to finish
> filling up. Let's get real here, gas station owners of America!Thanks, I
> feel better now.

Increasing that value would mean larger credit/debit preauthorized holds for
everybody, including the vast majority of people that fill up with less than
$50 at time. Why inconvenience everybody? If you need to pump more, just
restart the pump or pay with another method.

[Morgans]

"Janet" > wrote
>
> Increasing that value would mean larger credit/debit preauthorized holds
for
> everybody, including the vast majority of people that fill up with less
than
> $50 at time. Why inconvenience everybody?

Inconvenience? What? You mean there are people running around filling
their tanks with a credit card, that will not have another $10 available on
their credit line? I'm not buying it, and neither would you if you thought
about it. In the meantime, it costs me, and all others with big tanks
another few extra minutes when we fill up. *That* is inconvenience, and I
will not go back to a place that has not kept up with the times and made a
higher preauthorizations.

>If you need to pump more, just
> restart the pump or pay with another method.

Rediculous.
--
Jim in NC

[Ron Natalie]

Morgans wrote:
saction
>
>>amount known yet just to make sure there will be enough funds available.
>>Examples are pay-at-the-gas-pump transactions (usually $50 is
>
> preauthorized
>
>>before you start pumping),

Actually, that's WRONG. What they usually do is put through a $1
preauthorization. The $50 limit they put on the pumping is a number
that the point of sale determines is the max they will do based on that
$1 preauth.

[Ron Natalie]

Janet wrote:
> Morgans wrote:

>
> Increasing that value would mean larger credit/debit preauthorized holds for
> everybody, including the vast majority of people that fill up with less than
> $50 at time. Why inconvenience everybody? If you need to pump more, just
> restart the pump or pay with another method.
>

It would if the original premise was true, but in fact, the $50 is an arbitrary
limit set by the pump. It has nothing to do with the preauth.

[Corky Scott]

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 23:39:14 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>> Sometimes a preauthorized hold is put on the card without an actual
>transaction
>> amount known yet just to make sure there will be enough funds available.
>> Examples are pay-at-the-gas-pump transactions (usually $50 is
>preauthorized
>> before you start pumping),
>
>What is that all about? $50 for gas on a card? That does not even come
>close for me. My full size work van has a tank that will hold 31.6 gallons
>of gas, and still be running. With gas at times up to $1.89, I have to let
>the pump shut off, and then have to start up another charge to finish
>filling up. Let's get real here, gas station owners of America!Thanks, I
>feel better now.
>
>Required aviation content: I drove that van up to OSH this year, and it
>would have been cheaper to charter a plane, after buying the gas and a new
>transmission. (well, almost) :-)

I'll bet it's because of "Drive off's". People who fill their tanks
and split without paying. The higher the gas prices, the more the
occurrences, at least around here.

One gas station told me about an RV that topped off with 70 gallons,
then drove off without paying.

Corky Scott

[G.R. Patterson III]

Corky Scott wrote:
>
> I'll bet it's because of "Drive off's". People who fill their tanks
> and split without paying. The higher the gas prices, the more the
> occurrences, at least around here.

Can't be done when you pay at the pump with a credit card (which is what this
part of the thread has morphed to). You put the card in first.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[Morgans]

>
> Corky Scott wrote:
> >
> > I'll bet it's because of "Drive off's". People who fill their tanks
> > and split without paying. The higher the gas prices, the more the
> > occurrences, at least around here.
>
> Can't be done when you pay at the pump with a credit card (which is what
this
> part of the thread has morphed to). You put the card in first.
>
> George Patterson

Good Point. So all you gas station owners, Raise The Damn Limit!
--
Jim in NC

[Janet]

Ron Natalie wrote:

> Morgans wrote:
> saction
> >
> >>amount known yet just to make sure there will be enough funds available.
> >>Examples are pay-at-the-gas-pump transactions (usually $50 is
> >
> > preauthorized
> >
> >>before you start pumping),
>
> Actually, that's WRONG. What they usually do is put through a $1
> preauthorization. The $50 limit they put on the pumping is a number
> that the point of sale determines is the max they will do based on that
> $1 preauth.

I'm familiar with pump POS systems that preauthorize $50. YMMV.

If the customer spends more than is preauthorized the merchant is not
guaranteed to get those funds. However I'm not surprised that some gas
stations would not be willing to take that risk since they readily accept
the risk of not requiring a signature, let alone not checking the signature.

[Janet]

Morgans wrote:

> "Janet" > wrote
> >
> > Increasing that value would mean larger credit/debit preauthorized holds
> for
> > everybody, including the vast majority of people that fill up with less
> than
> > $50 at time. Why inconvenience everybody?
>
> Inconvenience? What? You mean there are people running around filling
> their tanks with a credit card, that will not have another $10 available on
> their credit line?

The $50 limit is set because it serves the vast majority of customers without
undue inconvenience of holding checking account money or tying up unnecessary
credit.


> I'm not buying it, and neither would you if you thought
> about it. In the meantime, it costs me, and all others with big tanks
> another few extra minutes when we fill up.

I doubt you will find much willingness on the part of most consumers to require
more of their money to be held to save a moment to restart the pump for thirsty
gas guzzlers. Try using online debit.

> *That* is inconvenience, and I
> will not go back to a place that has not kept up with the times and made a
> higher preauthorizations.

That's certainly your right. Since you don't shop at gas merchants where they
have only a $50 limit at least you don't have to deal with it when you do buy
gas.

[mike regish]

Debit cards are limited too. I use autogas and I fill 7-5 gallon cans as
well as my car sometimes. I like to put 5 gallons exactly in the cans and
now that's more difficult to do since it cuts me off in the middle of a can.

mike regish

"Janet" > wrote in message ...
> Morgans wrote:
>
> Try using online debit.

[Janet]

Bob Noel wrote:

> In article <Tsdqd.405505$wV.131490@attbi_s54>,
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
> > > :-( Then I won't be able to make a reservation for business travel at
> > > your hotel.
> >
> > Or anywhere else, for that matter.
>
> Jay: I have a Diners Club card which I've been using the early 90's
> for business travel.
>
> > I don't know of a single hotel (or even small B&B in our market) that
> > doesn't pre-authorize guaranteed reservations on a credit card.
>
> right. But your hotel is the only one that I've heard of that doesn't
> take American Express or Diners. I don't have a Visa card
> (just a debit card)

Diners Club is going to be affliliated with the Mastercard network in the very
near future, so you'll be fine at Jay's Hotel. CitiBank knows what's up these
days.

[Janet]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> >> One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will screw
> >> the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.
> >
> > has American Express or Diners Club done the same to you?
> > (just curious)
>
> We'll never know -- I threw BOTH of them out right after we opened, after
> they tried to charge us 5% for each transaction. (The other cards -- Visa,
> Mastercard & Discover -- charge us "only" 4% for the privilege of "working"
> with them.)
>
> Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
> but Discover? Everyone else charges to use their cards, while Discover
> actually PAYS you to use their card -- yet they are a distant third or
> fourth in the industry.
>
> Marketing is everything to American consumers, I guess..

You might want to shop around for a better merchant bank deal--4% seems awfully
high for a hotel and signed receipts. You may be able to get a little less than
3% for Visa and Mastercard although your negotiating power will be limited by
your volume. Discover Card has historically charged lower merchant rates than
the big 2--they had to do that to gain merchant market share, just as they paid
cash back to gain consumer market share. American Express has always charged
higher merchant fees/rates, because they could.

Today there are numerous cards that pay more cashback than Discover. Discover
only pays 1% after you charge so many thousands per year (before that you get a
lower percentage cash back). Chase, Citi, BaA, and some others have a few cards
that pay a straight 1%. Discover used to let you "double" your rebate with a
bunch of merchant partners, but the doubling merchants have dwindled to a
trickle in the last year.

MBNA appears to eat part of their 5% AOPA rebate, so a lot of people must pay
them interest on these cards to make it worthwhile. Thanks, guys.

[Morgans]

"mike regish" > wrote

> Debit cards are limited too. I use autogas and I fill 7-5 gallon cans as
> well as my car sometimes. I like to put 5 gallons exactly in the cans and
> now that's more difficult to do since it cuts me off in the middle of a
can.
>
> mike regish

Janet is arguing, just to argue. There is not a reason that she has given
that stands up. It all boils down to the gas station operators being too
lazy to keep up with the changing gas prices necessitating a rise of the
purchase limit.

They can do it if they want to. They have done it at least 2 times before.
Some have already done it again. They will get my business.
--
Jim in NC

[Janet]

Morgans wrote:

> "mike regish" > wrote
>
> > Debit cards are limited too. I use autogas and I fill 7-5 gallon cans as
> > well as my car sometimes. I like to put 5 gallons exactly in the cans and
> > now that's more difficult to do since it cuts me off in the middle of a
> can.
> >
> > mike regish
>
> Janet is arguing, just to argue. There is not a reason that she has given
> that stands up. It all boils down to the gas station operators being too
> lazy to keep up with the changing gas prices necessitating a rise of the
> purchase limit.
>
> They can do it if they want to. They have done it at least 2 times before.
> Some have already done it again. They will get my business.

Actually I'm not arguing at all, just pointing out what is actually happening,
and laziness has nothing to do with it. The vast majority of gasoline purchase
transactions are under thirty dollars today.

[Morgans]

"Janet" > wrote

The vast majority of gasoline purchase
> transactions are under thirty dollars today.
>

There are one HELL of a lot of people that work for a living, and have to
have a vehicle that can tow a load and carry a load. They all have gas
tanks big enough to go over a 50 buck limit, when close to empty.

I'm done here. Have the last word, as I know you must.
--
Jim in NC

[Janet]

Morgans wrote:

> "Janet" > wrote
>
> The vast majority of gasoline purchase
> > transactions are under thirty dollars today.
> >
>
> There are one HELL of a lot of people that work for a living, and have to
> have a vehicle that can tow a load and carry a load. They all have gas
> tanks big enough to go over a 50 buck limit, when close to empty.

Not to worry, just about all diesel pumps have limits far in excess of 50
dollars.

[Cub Driver]

On Tue, 07 Dec 2004 22:10:54 -0500, Janet > wrote:

>That is another big disadvantage to using debit cards, especially if it causes
>you to bounce checks even though there is bank physically in the account but it
>is effectively locked until the hold expires.

I've never understood why anyone would use a debit card. (Europeans do
this all the time, which right away ought to put you on guard!)

Somebody lifts my wallet and runs out to buy a new plasma TV with the
card they find.

Credit card: I tell Visa, "Fraudelent transaction! Deal with it!" No
problem whatever.

Debit card: I beg the bank not to bounce the checks I've written at
$25 per bounce as long as my checking account is empty. Meanwhile I
can't get any cash at the ATM. Very bad scene.

When my bank issued me a "MasterMoney" card in lieu of the old ATM
card, I made them take it back and provide me with a downmarket card
such as they issue to the students with twenty bucks' balance. I just
don't like the idea of a card in existence that could empty out my
account when used without a PIN.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Cub Driver > wrote:

> When my bank issued me a "MasterMoney" card in lieu of the old ATM
> card, I made them take it back and provide me with a downmarket card
> such as they issue to the students with twenty bucks' balance. I just
> don't like the idea of a card in existence that could empty out my
> account when used without a PIN.

I wouldn't either. But a debit card requires the PIN.

--
Bob Noel

[Peter Clark]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 05:22:54 -0500, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>When my bank issued me a "MasterMoney" card in lieu of the old ATM
>card, I made them take it back and provide me with a downmarket card
>such as they issue to the students with twenty bucks' balance. I just
>don't like the idea of a card in existence that could empty out my
>account when used without a PIN.

Actually, w/o PIN they could only buy up to your max purchase
limit/day (my bank defaults at $2500). If you were concerned about
it, yet wanted the utility of a check card, you could ask the bank to
set a lower per-day purchase limit on the card.

[John Harlow]

> Actually, w/o PIN they could only buy up to your max purchase
> limit/day (my bank defaults at $2500). If you were concerned about
> it, yet wanted the utility of a check card, you could ask the bank to
> set a lower per-day purchase limit on the card.

What is the utility of a check card over that of a credit card?

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"John Harlow" > wrote:

> What is the utility of a check card over that of a credit card?

No check to pay to the credit card company and no interest
payment rip-offs by the credit card company.

--
Bob Noel

[Newps]

Cub Driver wrote:


>
> I've never understood why anyone would use a debit card. (Europeans do
> this all the time, which right away ought to put you on guard!)
>
> Somebody lifts my wallet and runs out to buy a new plasma TV with the
> card they find.
>
> Credit card: I tell Visa, "Fraudelent transaction! Deal with it!" No
> problem whatever.
>
> Debit card: I beg the bank not to bounce the checks I've written at
> $25 per bounce as long as my checking account is empty. Meanwhile I
> can't get any cash at the ATM. Very bad scene.

Maybe at your bank, then you need another bank. If I call before the
transaction then the card won't work anywhere, every card is like that.
If I call within a reasonable amount of time of the theft then all
sales from the time I give them are voided and the money returned to me.

[John Harlow]

> No check to pay to the credit card company and no interest
> payment rip-offs by the credit card company.

An auto-payment credit card has neither of those, plus you get free money
for 30 days, fraud protection, extended warranties, rental coverage and cash
back. I have no idea still why anyone would ever use a debit card.

[Janet]

Bob Noel wrote:

> In article >,
> "John Harlow" > wrote:
>
> > What is the utility of a check card over that of a credit card?
>
> No check to pay to the credit card company and no interest
> payment rip-offs by the credit card company.

I've never seen a mainstream credit card company that charged interest
when the full balance is paid off every month on time. If you request,
the credit card company can directly pay your full balance automatically
on the due date each month via EFT from your bank account.

You then have all of the benefits of a credit card (no cleaned out
checking account/bounced checks if there is card fraud, full dispute
rights, 30+ day 0% interest, rewards etc) with your stated advantages of
a debit card.

[Janet]

Bob Noel wrote:

> In article >,
> Cub Driver > wrote:
>
> > When my bank issued me a "MasterMoney" card in lieu of the old ATM
> > card, I made them take it back and provide me with a downmarket card
> > such as they issue to the students with twenty bucks' balance. I just
> > don't like the idea of a card in existence that could empty out my
> > account when used without a PIN.
>
> I wouldn't either. But a debit card requires the PIN.

Not necessarily true. A debit card in online mode requires a PIN. If your
debit card allows offline debit transactions (e.g. it has a Visa or M/C
logo on the front) there is no PIN required for your card (or just the
numbers) to be used to clean out your checking account [and more if you
have overdraft protection].

Sure, maybe you can get all the fraud sorted out later with that no-fraud
guarantee, but in the meantime your checks are bouncing, you can't
withdrawl your money, the people who you gave checks to are upset and are
going to charge you fees + add you to black lists, and you need to spend a
lot of time taking care of this. The no-fraud guarantee isn't going to
help you with *that.*

[Janet]

Newps wrote:

> Cub Driver wrote:
>
> >
> > I've never understood why anyone would use a debit card. (Europeans do
> > this all the time, which right away ought to put you on guard!)
> >
> > Somebody lifts my wallet and runs out to buy a new plasma TV with the
> > card they find.
> >
> > Credit card: I tell Visa, "Fraudelent transaction! Deal with it!" No
> > problem whatever.
> >
> > Debit card: I beg the bank not to bounce the checks I've written at
> > $25 per bounce as long as my checking account is empty. Meanwhile I
> > can't get any cash at the ATM. Very bad scene.
>
> Maybe at your bank, then you need another bank. If I call before the
> transaction then the card won't work anywhere, every card is like that.
> If I call within a reasonable amount of time of the theft then all
> sales from the time I give them are voided and the money returned to me.

That's great, but how do you know when "before the transaction" is? If your
card number is compromised before you know it, your money can be debited
while your card is in your own pocket. A new twist involves creating a new
card with your number saved on the magnetic strip.

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article >,
John Harlow > wrote:
>> Actually, w/o PIN they could only buy up to your max purchase
>> limit/day (my bank defaults at $2500). If you were concerned about
>> it, yet wanted the utility of a check card, you could ask the bank to
>> set a lower per-day purchase limit on the card.
>
>What is the utility of a check card over that of a credit card?

For many, well at least me, it's just easier. I don't buy things that
I can't afford (with the expetion of school loans and my car, which is
paid for now btw). I prefer to pay cash for everything, but I don't like
to carry that much cash on me, and I don't know how much to carry on me
for certain trips. I could write checks, but not every place takes checks
and I don't like waiting for checks to clear.
I'm a nerd, so I've got a calculator watch and keep my 'spending money'
in checking. When I use my debit visa I just subtract that out of my
watch, instant balanced account :) For others they just don't want to pay
the bill off each money (again lazy/easier).
There's something to be said for having a real credit card in case of
an 'accident/emergency' but truth be told it's never really happened and I
get by.

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:52:59 GMT, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>> account when used without a PIN.
>
>I wouldn't either. But a debit card requires the PIN.

No, it doesn't. You can sign a charge sheet, just as with a credit
card. That's what's so scary about debit cards.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[Cub Driver]

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 11:20:27 -0500, "John Harlow"
> wrote:

>> No check to pay to the credit card company and no interest
>> payment rip-offs by the credit card company.
>
>An auto-payment credit card has neither of those, plus you get free money
>for 30 days, fraud protection, extended warranties, rental coverage and cash
>back. I have no idea still why anyone would ever use a debit card.

And frequent-flier miles! I average a trip a year on FF miles from
credit cards, most recently skiing in Aspen CO.

(On the return to Boston, I was in Economy Plus, which I have never
achieved when paying for the ticket!)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

[John Harlow]

> For many, well at least me, it's just easier. I don't buy things
> that I can't afford (with the expetion of school loans and my car,
> which is paid for now btw). I prefer to pay cash for everything,

Set yourself up with an auto debit VISA and get many more benefits at no
cost.