AOPA credit card --- WARNING. [Archive]

Jay Honeck

November 25th 04, 09:43 PM

> Kinda timely since PBS's Frontline had a show on credit cards last
> Tuesday.
> Very eye opening, it seems that a couple of Supreme Court decisions allow
> credit card companies to charge whatever interest rate they want and to
> raise the interest rate on money already on the balance.
> Most of the credit card holders interviewed had never read or didn't
> understand the "fine print" in their card contracts.

One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will screw
the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.

Over the past couple of years we have had a handful of guests with
guaranteed reservations not show up at the inn, who were charged for one
night's stay. Two of them simply called their credit card companies and
disputed the charge -- at which point the credit card company immediately
credited them and charged us back, no questions asked!

It was then up to US to "prove" to VISA that the guest had stayed with us --
which, of course, they had not. Despite the fact that these guests
insisted on "guaranteed reservations", despite the fact that we had
pre-authorized their stay on their credit card, despite the fact that we had
mailed post cards to their home, reminding them of their reservation -- and
despite the fact that we followed VISA's own procedures for no-shows to the
letter -- we were totally helpless, and had to eat the bill. No amount of
documentation or phone calls mattered to VISA.

THAT is the real credit card scandal that is sweeping America right now --
but no one outside of the industry knows (or, quite frankly) cares about it.
But we ALL pay for scumbags like these in the end.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Bob Noel

November 25th 04, 09:46 PM

In article <Nlspd.150701$R05.147436@attbi_s53>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will screw
> the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.

has American Express or Diners Club done the same to you?
(just curious)

--
Bob Noel

Jay Honeck

November 25th 04, 09:52 PM

>> One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will screw
>> the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.
>
> has American Express or Diners Club done the same to you?
> (just curious)

We'll never know -- I threw BOTH of them out right after we opened, after
they tried to charge us 5% for each transaction. (The other cards -- Visa,
Mastercard & Discover -- charge us "only" 4% for the privilege of "working"
with them.)

Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
but Discover? Everyone else charges to use their cards, while Discover
actually PAYS you to use their card -- yet they are a distant third or
fourth in the industry.

Marketing is everything to American consumers, I guess...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

November 25th 04, 09:53 PM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:%9spd.150672$R05.66688@attbi_s53...
>> If you have an MBNA credit card, look at your statements...if you like
>> being screwed by the credit card company then ignore this thread and do
>> nothing.
>
> You talk like MBNA owes you something. If you don't want to use their
> damned card -- don't.
>
> If MBNA charges you 20% interest -- and you're dumb enough to use their
> card -- who cares? It's not like there aren't 100 other credit card
> companies begging for your business, so either pay the bill off each
> month, or tell 'em to take a hike.

Ok. So you also support legalized loan sharking. Fine.

But tell me, what will you do when home, auto and commercial proprerty loan
companies hike their rates just because they feel like it? Even if you pay
on time, every time. All they need to do is lobby hard enough to put it into
law and you are totally screwed.

What then, Mr Clever Guy?

Paul Tomblin

November 25th 04, 10:02 PM

In a previous article, "Chuck" > said:
>
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a sucker.
>
>Or isn't as wealthy or well off financially as you are...

Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you know.
Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money ahead of
time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
instant gratification stuff.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Outside of a dog, a good book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog,
it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx

Paul Tomblin

November 25th 04, 10:04 PM

In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
>Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
>but Discover?

Because nobody in Canada takes Discover. As a friend of mine "Discovered"
the hard way.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World
War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
-- Albert Einstein

Casey Wilson

November 25th 04, 10:06 PM

"RS" > wrote in message
news:%Cqpd.97927$5K2.50864@attbi_s03...
> "Casey Wilson" > wrote in message
> news:FUppd.10488$1B2.4184@trnddc02...
>>
>> I'm with Paul. If you can't afford to pay off the balance at the end
>> of the month, then you can't afford to use the card in the first place.
>
> Are you a supporter of legalized loan sharking? Because that is what I
> think MBNA is doing. Not to mention that MBNA has surpassed Enron as the
> biggest contributor to George Bush. It's all good, move along folks,
> nothing to worry about...

Nothing in my post warranted your response. I'll put it this way, if
you don't like what they offer, close your account. MBNA isn't holding a gun
to your head. Sheesh!

Jay Honeck

November 25th 04, 10:10 PM

> But tell me, what will you do when home, auto and commercial proprerty
> loan companies hike their rates just because they feel like it? Even if
> you pay on time, every time. All they need to do is lobby hard enough to
> put it into law and you are totally screwed.
>
> What then, Mr Clever Guy?

I'm not following you. If you pay "on time, every time" -- credit card
companies CAN'T charge you any interest.

Or are you talking about annual fees, like American Express charges?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Casey Wilson

November 25th 04, 10:10 PM

"
> Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
> but Discover? Everyone else charges to use their cards, while Discover
> actually PAYS you to use their card -- yet they are a distant third or
> fourth in the industry.

Hey Jay, check into Bank One's master card. I switched from Discover to
BO (pun) for two reasons. One, master card is recognized more places, and
two, Bank One pays back more.

ArtP

November 25th 04, 10:19 PM

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 21:52:37 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
>but Discover?

I use MBNA Master card because of the AOPA discount. The rest of the
time I use Bank of America Visa because they will automatically take
the full balance due (not just the minimum payment) from my bank
account.

November 25th 04, 10:21 PM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:3Lspd.391816$wV.73568@attbi_s54...
>> But tell me, what will you do when home, auto and commercial proprerty
>> loan companies hike their rates just because they feel like it? Even if
>> you pay on time, every time. All they need to do is lobby hard enough to
>> put it into law and you are totally screwed.
>>
>> What then, Mr Clever Guy?
>
> I'm not following you. If you pay "on time, every time" -- credit card
> companies CAN'T charge you any interest.

What would you do if they hiked the APR on your auto or home loan just
because they felt like it, even if you had a perfect payment history? Well,
that's what the credit card companys are doing now - they are changing the
rules mid-stream. Credit is credit - regardless what it is for. You guys on
your high moral horses about paying credit cards off every month do not
impress me (unless you have zero credit - no home, auto, commercial loans at
all).

Matt Whiting

November 25th 04, 10:25 PM

Chuck wrote:

> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In a previous article, "RS" > said:
>>
>>>If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on
>
> your
>
>>>last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA cardholders, even
>
> if
>
>>>you pay on time.
>>
>>Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a sucker.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Or isn't as wealthy or well off financially as you are...

Just the opposite. Someone who is wealthy could afford to carry a
balance, it is folks who aren't who shouldn't be. I'm with Paul, I've
never paid a cent of interest on a credit card in nearly 20 years now.
People who carry credit card balances, for anything other than a real
emergency, are suckers as he said. And people who are smart, will save
up an emergency fund so that even emergencies don't require carrying a
credit card balance.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 25th 04, 10:30 PM

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>If you have an MBNA credit card, look at your statements...if you like
>>being screwed by the credit card company then ignore this thread and do
>>nothing.
>
>
> You talk like MBNA owes you something. If you don't want to use their
> damned card -- don't.
>
> If MBNA charges you 20% interest -- and you're dumb enough to use their
> card -- who cares? It's not like there aren't 100 other credit card
> companies begging for your business, so either pay the bill off each month,
> or tell 'em to take a hike.
>
> We haven't paid a nickel of credit card interest since 1985 -- and that was
> to pay for our wedding. (And I've felt stupid about paying *that* ever
> since.) The ONLY valid reason to use a credit card is to consolidate all of
> your bills into one easily payable check each month.

Actually, there are lots of other valid reasons. One is that in many
places you can't do things like rent a car without plastic. Many car
rental places won't take cash.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 25th 04, 10:32 PM

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Kinda timely since PBS's Frontline had a show on credit cards last
>>Tuesday.
>>Very eye opening, it seems that a couple of Supreme Court decisions allow
>>credit card companies to charge whatever interest rate they want and to
>>raise the interest rate on money already on the balance.
>>Most of the credit card holders interviewed had never read or didn't
>>understand the "fine print" in their card contracts.
>
>
> One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will screw
> the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.
>
> Over the past couple of years we have had a handful of guests with
> guaranteed reservations not show up at the inn, who were charged for one
> night's stay. Two of them simply called their credit card companies and
> disputed the charge -- at which point the credit card company immediately
> credited them and charged us back, no questions asked!
>
> It was then up to US to "prove" to VISA that the guest had stayed with us --
> which, of course, they had not. Despite the fact that these guests
> insisted on "guaranteed reservations", despite the fact that we had
> pre-authorized their stay on their credit card, despite the fact that we had
> mailed post cards to their home, reminding them of their reservation -- and
> despite the fact that we followed VISA's own procedures for no-shows to the
> letter -- we were totally helpless, and had to eat the bill. No amount of
> documentation or phone calls mattered to VISA.
>
> THAT is the real credit card scandal that is sweeping America right now --
> but no one outside of the industry knows (or, quite frankly) cares about it.
> But we ALL pay for scumbags like these in the end.

I assume you keep a list of such "customers." Seems like a business
opportunity here to start a database of folks who do this routinely and
then sell the list to other vendors! :-)

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 25th 04, 10:38 PM

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>>One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will screw
>>>the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.
>>
>>has American Express or Diners Club done the same to you?
>>(just curious)
>
>
> We'll never know -- I threw BOTH of them out right after we opened, after
> they tried to charge us 5% for each transaction. (The other cards -- Visa,
> Mastercard & Discover -- charge us "only" 4% for the privilege of "working"
> with them.)
>
> Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
> but Discover? Everyone else charges to use their cards, while Discover
> actually PAYS you to use their card -- yet they are a distant third or
> fourth in the industry.

Funny you should mention this. I just got a Discover card last January
after hearing from my sister how they got money back on theirs. I kept
my Visa however. Turns out that was a good call as I've found a lot of
places that don't accept Discover. Also, the rebat isn't nearly as
large as their marketing leads you to believe. I've spent probably
15,000 on Discover this year and my rebate is still less than $50.
Quite frankly, this isn't worth the pain of dealing with two credit
cards, paying two bills, etc. Also, I've had three erroneous charges on
my Discover in the 10 months I've had it ... more than I've had on Visa
in 20 years! The last two erroneous charges were substantial, totaling
$1500 for shipping on DHL from a location in Washington state, while I
was out of the country no less!

I'm going to get the meager rebate at year end and then cut up the
Discover card. The rebate is mostly fluff in my experience. I just I'm
just not in bad enough financial shape to get excited about a 0.3% rebate...

Matt

Paul Tomblin

November 25th 04, 10:39 PM

In a previous article, "RS" > said:
>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>What would you do if they hiked the APR on your auto or home loan just
>because they felt like it, even if you had a perfect payment history? Well,
>that's what the credit card companys are doing now - they are changing the
>rules mid-stream. Credit is credit - regardless what it is for. You guys on

No, credit isn't credit "regardless what it is for". The credit agreement
of a credit card (you know, that fine print that you didn't read) clearly
gives them the right to hike the rates every time it strikes their fancy.
The loan agreement of auto loans and home loans are different, and if you
read the fine print on them you'd find that they can't raise the rates on
a whim.

That's why smart people take out bank loans rather than borrowing against
credit cards if they *must* use credit.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
And on the seventh day, He exited from append mode.

Matt Whiting

November 25th 04, 10:40 PM

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
>
>>Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
>>but Discover?
>
>
> Because nobody in Canada takes Discover. As a friend of mine "Discovered"
> the hard way.
>
>

And not just in Canada. I've found two local restaurants in just the
last month who don't take Discover. I've also found a number of other
smaller establishments that don't take Discover. Most large outfits do,
but not many of the small ones.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 25th 04, 10:42 PM

Matt Whiting

November 25th 04, 10:43 PM

Casey Wilson wrote:

> "RS" > wrote in message
> news:%Cqpd.97927$5K2.50864@attbi_s03...
>
>>"Casey Wilson" > wrote in message
>>news:FUppd.10488$1B2.4184@trnddc02...
>>
>>> I'm with Paul. If you can't afford to pay off the balance at the end
>>>of the month, then you can't afford to use the card in the first place.
>>
>>Are you a supporter of legalized loan sharking? Because that is what I
>>think MBNA is doing. Not to mention that MBNA has surpassed Enron as the
>>biggest contributor to George Bush. It's all good, move along folks,
>>nothing to worry about...
>
>
> Nothing in my post warranted your response. I'll put it this way, if
> you don't like what they offer, close your account. MBNA isn't holding a gun
> to your head. Sheesh!
>
>

Casey, you obviously don't understand liberals. They feel that they
shouldn't have to take responsibility for their actions, but rather be
protected and looked after by the government.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 25th 04, 10:49 PM

RS wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:3Lspd.391816$wV.73568@attbi_s54...
>
>>>But tell me, what will you do when home, auto and commercial proprerty
>>>loan companies hike their rates just because they feel like it? Even if
>>>you pay on time, every time. All they need to do is lobby hard enough to
>>>put it into law and you are totally screwed.
>>>
>>>What then, Mr Clever Guy?
>>
>>I'm not following you. If you pay "on time, every time" -- credit card
>>companies CAN'T charge you any interest.
>
>
> What would you do if they hiked the APR on your auto or home loan just
> because they felt like it, even if you had a perfect payment history? Well,
> that's what the credit card companys are doing now - they are changing the
> rules mid-stream. Credit is credit - regardless what it is for. You guys on
> your high moral horses about paying credit cards off every month do not
> impress me (unless you have zero credit - no home, auto, commercial loans at
> all).

They aren't changing the rules midstream. Read your credit card
agreement. This is all spelled out in there. I actually read mine and
it is quite appalling what you agree to when you accept a credit card,
but it is hardly a rules change mid-stream. I don't care about all of
these issues as I pay my bill in full each month and they can't charge
me anything for that, because the agreement says so!

Likewise, my home mortgage can't be changed arbitrarily other than the
annual adjustment due to its being an ARM. However, this is likewise
all spelled out in the agreement I signed when I got the loan.

As for car loans, anyone buying a car on a loan is almost as foolish as
anyone carrying a credit card balance. Cars should be bought only with
cash as should any depreciating asset.

You do read your agreements for loans, credit cards, etc., right?

Matt

Paul Tomblin

November 25th 04, 11:03 PM

In a previous article, said:
>Jay Honeck wrote:
>> THAT is the real credit card scandal that is sweeping America right now --
>> but no one outside of the industry knows (or, quite frankly) cares about it.
>> But we ALL pay for scumbags like these in the end.
>
>I assume you keep a list of such "customers." Seems like a business
>opportunity here to start a database of folks who do this routinely and
>then sell the list to other vendors! :-)

In this country you'd probably get sued for libel if you maintained such a
list.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Diplomacy is the ability to let someone else have your way.

Paul Tomblin

November 25th 04, 11:06 PM

In a previous article, said:
>Jay Honeck wrote:
>> they tried to charge us 5% for each transaction. (The other cards -- Visa,
>> Mastercard & Discover -- charge us "only" 4% for the privilege of "working"
>> with them.)
>
>Given this, why don't people like yourself offer discounts for cash any
>longer? Seems like less use of credit cards would be to your advantage.

Probably a violation of their agreement with the credit card company if
they did.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Don't even get me started on the MCSEs I know. It's a miracle of
modern technology that some of these fsckwits still draw breath,
much less a paycheck. -- Marc Bowden

Paul Tomblin

November 25th 04, 11:08 PM

In a previous article, said:
>Casey, you obviously don't understand liberals. They feel that they
>shouldn't have to take responsibility for their actions, but rather be
>protected and looked after by the government.

I got news for you, buddy. I'm the one arguing that people shouldn't
carry credit card balances if they don't want to pay credit card interest
rates, and I'm a conservative's worst nightmare - I'm a Trudeau Liberal.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Ahhh, the permie offer. The "Please sign up with us clueless fsckwits
so you can spend all your time digging us out at a pittance" offer.
-- Dan Holdsworth

mike regish

November 25th 04, 11:24 PM

Did you tell them that if they didn't show they would be responsible for
one night's payment.

Just curious. You don't make that clear here.

mike regish

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Nlspd.150701$R05.147436@attbi_s53...
>
> It was then up to US to "prove" to VISA that the guest had stayed with
> us -- which, of course, they had not. Despite the fact that these
> guests insisted on "guaranteed reservations", despite the fact that we had
> pre-authorized their stay on their credit card, despite the fact that we
> had mailed post cards to their home, reminding them of their
> reservation -- and despite the fact that we followed VISA's own procedures
> for no-shows to the letter -- we were totally helpless, and had to eat the
> bill. No amount of documentation or phone calls mattered to VISA.
>
> THAT is the real credit card scandal that is sweeping America right now --
> but no one outside of the industry knows (or, quite frankly) cares about
> it. But we ALL pay for scumbags like these in the end.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

mike regish

November 25th 04, 11:30 PM

Yeah. Like Bush has taken full responsibility for getting us into Iraq under
wrong and false pretenses. Wasn't HIS fault. It was bad intel. Yeah...that's
it...bad intel. That's the ticket.

Oh...wait...Bush isn't a liberal, is he?

Get back on your meds, Matt.

mike regish

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> Casey, you obviously don't understand liberals. They feel that they
> shouldn't have to take responsibility for their actions, but rather be
> protected and looked after by the government.
>
> Matt
>

John Harlow

November 25th 04, 11:31 PM

> Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any
> card but Discover? Everyone else charges to use their cards, while
> Discover actually PAYS you to use their card -- yet they are a
> distant third or fourth in the industry.

I have a Visa Platinum "rewards" card through Bank Of America, which I not
only have setup auto-debit to my account for the outstanding balance every
month (never a finance charge nor worry of late fee, plus I get free use of
their money for 30 days), but they cut ME a check for $150 a year for using
their card. I buy everything with it.

But they don't seem to advertise it. The way I found out about it is I
called to cancel my regular Visa, When they asked "why?" I said I use
Discover which pays cash back. Then and only then did they say they had a
competitive card; it actually pays twice what Discover does, plus Discover
has gone to their silly $20 cash back increments.

Definitely an excellent deal.

Bob Noel

November 25th 04, 11:31 PM

In article <Fuspd.85361$V41.50473@attbi_s52>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > has American Express or Diners Club done the same to you?
> > (just curious)
>
> We'll never know -- I threw BOTH of them out right after we opened, after
> they tried to charge us 5% for each transaction. (The other cards -- Visa,
> Mastercard & Discover -- charge us "only" 4% for the privilege of "working"
> with them.)

um, does making a reservation at your place require a credit card?
My Visa card is really just a debit card (with a small daily limit). And
my employer's wonderful travel policy requires me to use the Diners Club
for business travel.

> Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
> but Discover?

Because almost every place that I need to use a credit card won't take
Discover (self-serve pump at the airport, the aeroclub, etc).

--
Bob Noel

Vaughn

November 25th 04, 11:36 PM

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you know.

No, but the *******s sure do try to seduce you into the deficit spending
lifestyle, and they try to start us off early. Just go into any college dorm
lobby or study area and the place will be awash with credit card applications.
Guess who puts them there? Guess why?

> Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money ahead of
> time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
> instant gratification stuff.

Agreed.

Vaughn

Matt Whiting

November 25th 04, 11:40 PM

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, said:
>
>>Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>>>THAT is the real credit card scandal that is sweeping America right now --
>>>but no one outside of the industry knows (or, quite frankly) cares about it.
>>>But we ALL pay for scumbags like these in the end.
>>
>>I assume you keep a list of such "customers." Seems like a business
>>opportunity here to start a database of folks who do this routinely and
>>then sell the list to other vendors! :-)
>
>
> In this country you'd probably get sued for libel if you maintained such a
> list.
>
>

Well, as a lawyer once told me, the truth is always a defense against a
libel or slander charge. You would only be liable for libel if you put
someone on the list without due cause.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 25th 04, 11:43 PM

mike regish wrote:

> Yeah. Like Bush has taken full responsibility for getting us into Iraq under
> wrong and false pretenses. Wasn't HIS fault. It was bad intel. Yeah...that's
> it...bad intel. That's the ticket.
>
> Oh...wait...Bush isn't a liberal, is he?
>
> Get back on your meds, Matt.

Better watch more news. Bush has taken full responsibility for being in
Iraq in a number of interviews. He was even asked if he'd do it again
knowing that the intel was wrong and he said yes. How much more
assumption of responsibility do you want?

Now do you have a legitimate example?

Matt

Casey Wilson

November 25th 04, 11:45 PM

> rules mid-stream. Credit is credit - regardless what it is for. You guys
> on your high moral horses about paying credit cards off every month do not
> impress me (unless you have zero credit - no home, auto, commercial loans
> at all).

Well, now that you mention it, I have no mortgage payments, own two
cars, a pickup and a jeep outright, don't owe the doctor or dentist any
money, and pay off all my credit cards at the end of the month. Oh yeah, I
put three kids of my four kids through college -- one elected to pass on the
opportunity. I got wise to the stupidity of paying exhorbitant interest
rates on loans and credit cards more than twenty years ago. It seems to have
rubbed off on my kids. None of them ever pay the "minimum balance due,"
although I will admit, one of them is paying a mortgage off.

Mike V.

November 25th 04, 11:48 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message >> Nothing in
my post warranted your response. I'll put it this way, if
>> you don't like what they offer, close your account. MBNA isn't holding a
>> gun to your head. Sheesh!
>
> Casey, you obviously don't understand liberals. They feel that they
> shouldn't have to take responsibility for their actions, but rather be
> protected and looked after by the government.

Fiscal responsibility? Excuse me while I laugh my ass off... such words are
a total riot coming from a so-called conservative.
Conservatives/Republicans/Bush are the very last people on this planet who
could talk about fiscal responsibility.

Conservatives drove us into ever increasing federal debt, oil prices through
the roof, the weakest dollar ever, growth in federal spending. And you want
to talk about taking responsibility. Yeah, right...

Matt Whiting

November 25th 04, 11:58 PM

Vaughn wrote:

> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you know.
>
>
> No, but the *******s sure do try to seduce you into the deficit spending
> lifestyle, and they try to start us off early. Just go into any college dorm
> lobby or study area and the place will be awash with credit card applications.
> Guess who puts them there? Guess why?

Yep, just like everyone with something to sell, be it credit cards,
cars, beer or drugs (legal ones!). Pays to teach your kids
self-discipline very early on.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 26th 04, 12:04 AM

Mike V. wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message >> Nothing in
> my post warranted your response. I'll put it this way, if
>
>>>you don't like what they offer, close your account. MBNA isn't holding a
>>>gun to your head. Sheesh!
>>
>>Casey, you obviously don't understand liberals. They feel that they
>>shouldn't have to take responsibility for their actions, but rather be
>>protected and looked after by the government.
>
>
> Fiscal responsibility? Excuse me while I laugh my ass off... such words are
> a total riot coming from a so-called conservative.
> Conservatives/Republicans/Bush are the very last people on this planet who
> could talk about fiscal responsibility.

I mostly agree with you here, believe it or not. The current
administration hasn't done a good job at all of fiscal management. You
won't get any argument from me there. Do you really believe that all
conservative Republicans agree with everything the current
administration is doing?

> Conservatives drove us into ever increasing federal debt, oil prices through
> the roof, the weakest dollar ever, growth in federal spending. And you want
> to talk about taking responsibility. Yeah, right...

Not conservatives in general, just the one's currently in power. I
agree that things could have been handled much better, however, I also
know that had the Clinton administration been able to continue four more
years with the recession that started on his watch and the 9/11 attacks,
we'd likely be in much the same situation. We likely wouldn't have
spent as much money on the war on terror as Clinton wouldn't have had
the stomach for that. The unknown downside is that this passive
approach likely would have encouraged more 9/11 like attacks and the
cost of them would have been horrendous.

Matt

Chris

November 26th 04, 12:07 AM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> mike regish wrote:
>
>> Yeah. Like Bush has taken full responsibility for getting us into Iraq
>> under wrong and false pretenses. Wasn't HIS fault. It was bad intel.
>> Yeah...that's it...bad intel. That's the ticket.
>>
>> Oh...wait...Bush isn't a liberal, is he?
>>
>> Get back on your meds, Matt.
>
> Better watch more news. Bush has taken full responsibility for being in
> Iraq in a number of interviews. He was even asked if he'd do it again
> knowing that the intel was wrong and he said yes. How much more
> assumption of responsibility do you want?
>
> Now do you have a legitimate example?

That just proves he is stupid

Capt.Doug

November 26th 04, 12:19 AM

>"RS" wrote in message > Answer the question: Have fed rates gone up 4%?
> No... Not even close. So there is no interest rate based justification for
> such a rate hike.

The USA is a corporation. It is governed largely by corporate style law. You
and your name are considered a corporation. You signed your name to a
corporate instrument called a credit card agreement. No one forced you to
sign it. That's all the justification that is needed.

Instead of ranting about falling prey to your own signature in a nasty
negative post, how about spreading the word that people are accountable for
the documents they sign and therefore should be careful to read and
UNDERSTAND all the details involved before signing?

Most of the readers in this group are of average intelligence (some think
they're smarter :-)). They understand that credit card lenders draw suckers
in with low interest rates and then jack it up when the balances climb. If
you can't see the scheme, and you won't hold yourself personally accountable
for the agreement you signed, perhaps this is the wrong group for you.
Ranting about a lack of justification is falling on deaf ears.

D.

mike regish

November 26th 04, 12:30 AM

Taking responsibility for screwing up is what I'd like to see. Show me
where he's done that. Any idiot knows he's responsible for getting us there.
Saying that he'd screw up again is not exactly reassuring.

mike regish

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> mike regish wrote:
>
>> Yeah. Like Bush has taken full responsibility for getting us into Iraq
>> under wrong and false pretenses. Wasn't HIS fault. It was bad intel.
>> Yeah...that's it...bad intel. That's the ticket.
>>
>> Oh...wait...Bush isn't a liberal, is he?
>>
>> Get back on your meds, Matt.
>
> Better watch more news. Bush has taken full responsibility for being in
> Iraq in a number of interviews. He was even asked if he'd do it again
> knowing that the intel was wrong and he said yes. How much more
> assumption of responsibility do you want?
>
> Now do you have a legitimate example?
>
> Matt
>

Paul Tomblin

November 26th 04, 12:52 AM

In a previous article, "mike regish" > said:
>Did you tell them that if they didn't show they would be responsible for
>one night's payment.

Mike, that's why they call it "guaranteeing" the reservation. You risk
having to pay for a night you wont be there in return for the guarantee
that they won't give the room away if you're a little bit late arriving.
I don't know of a hotel in North America that doesn't operate that way.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Wonder what diamonds do to lusers though."
"When attached to the teeth of a blade turning at 7000rpm, a darn fine job."
-- Peter N. M. Hansteen and D. Joseph Creighton

'Vejita' S. Cousin

November 26th 04, 01:18 AM

In article <Fuspd.85361$V41.50473@attbi_s52>,
>Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
>but Discover? Everyone else charges to use their cards, while Discover
>actually PAYS you to use their card -- yet they are a distant third or
>fourth in the industry.
>
>Marketing is everything to American consumers, I guess...

Well in my case I don't have a 'real' credit card. I have a debit visa
(work just the same). I keep most of my spendable money in checking then
use the Visa the same as cash. If I can't afford something then I don't
buy it.
I've thought about getting a real credit card (just in case) and if I
did so it would most likely be through my credit union (because it's just
easier). _IF_ I was forced to use a real credit card I would pay it off
in less than 60 days (to avoid the interest).
I had a real credit card for about 7yrs, but always paid it off. When
debit visa came out I cancelled it.
The thing about Discover is that it's not accepted everywhere I go, so
I can't use it the same as cash as I can a debit visa.

'Vejita' S. Cousin

November 26th 04, 01:22 AM

In article >,
>>> they tried to charge us 5% for each transaction. (The other cards -- Visa,
>>> Mastercard & Discover -- charge us "only" 4% for the privilege of "working"
>>> with them.)
>>
>>Given this, why don't people like yourself offer discounts for cash any
>>longer? Seems like less use of credit cards would be to your advantage.
>
>Probably a violation of their agreement with the credit card company if
>they did.

Can't speak for Jay but that's a common clause. I've dealth with two
small busniess that gave cash discounts, and they got letters from Visa
(have no idea how anyone found out) saying they had to stop that. Visa
also has rules about what kind of fees you can charge too, my University
is in voliation of that agreement and last time I checked 2 students were
suing the University over it :)

ArtP

November 26th 04, 01:37 AM

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 01:18:22 +0000 (UTC),
('Vejita' S. Cousin) wrote:

> Well in my case I don't have a 'real' credit card. I have a debit visa
>(work just the same). I keep most of my spendable money in checking then
>use the Visa the same as cash

As you say a debit card is just like cash (which is not the
same as a credit card). When I use a credit card I get to keep my
money for an additional 40 days (average of 15 days until the end of
the billing period and another 25 days until the credit card company
takes the payment). More importantly if I have a problem with the
product purchased with a credit card, the credit card company will
intervene on my behalf with the debit card I am on my own.

Philip Sondericker

November 26th 04, 01:50 AM

in article , Paul Tomblin at
wrote on 11/25/04 10:02 AM:

> Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a sucker.

Or they know perfectly well what they're doing and accept the consequences,
distasteful as they may be. I made a conscious decision to carry some credit
card debt in order to get my pilot's license. I had no other immediate
options, and I don't regret doing it.

mike regish

November 26th 04, 02:12 AM

Just asking. Is that stated anywhere? Usually things like that are. If not,
they should be. It's not all that difficult. I don't do hotels all that
often and I would want to be told that specifically. It would certainly have
cured this problem.

mike regish

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "mike regish" > said:
>>Did you tell them that if they didn't show they would be responsible for
>>one night's payment.
>
> Mike, that's why they call it "guaranteeing" the reservation. You risk
> having to pay for a night you wont be there in return for the guarantee
> that they won't give the room away if you're a little bit late arriving.
> I don't know of a hotel in North America that doesn't operate that way.
>
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> "Wonder what diamonds do to lusers though."
> "When attached to the teeth of a blade turning at 7000rpm, a darn fine
> job."
> -- Peter N. M. Hansteen and D. Joseph Creighton

Ron Rosenfeld

November 26th 04, 02:15 AM

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:50:26 GMT, "RS" > wrote:

>If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on your
>last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA cardholders, even if
>you pay on time.
>
>So check your credit card statements and call AOPA credit card services to
>complain.
>And also call MBNA to drop the rate back down.
>

The APR is only an issue if you carry a balance.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Chuck

November 26th 04, 02:25 AM

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Chuck" > said:
> >
> >"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a
sucker.
> >
> >Or isn't as wealthy or well off financially as you are...
>
> Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you know.
> Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money ahead of
> time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
> instant gratification stuff.
>

Ya know... I didn't say that paying the balance off was a bad thing. I guess
what kinda ticked me off about your post was you said that people were
idiots or suckers for not paying the balance. I merely pointed out that some
people can't do that.

If I get a new job and have to go to Sears and buy $2,000 worth of tools, I
will not be able to pay the balance off in one month. But I gotta have the
tools if I want the job.

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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Chuck

November 26th 04, 02:31 AM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck wrote:
>
> > "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>In a previous article, "RS" > said:
> >>
> >>>If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on
> >
> > your
> >
> >>>last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA cardholders,
even
> >
> > if
> >
> >>>you pay on time.
> >>
> >>Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a
sucker.
> >
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Or isn't as wealthy or well off financially as you are...
>
> Just the opposite. Someone who is wealthy could afford to carry a
> balance, it is folks who aren't who shouldn't be. I'm with Paul, I've
> never paid a cent of interest on a credit card in nearly 20 years now.
> People who carry credit card balances, for anything other than a real
> emergency, are suckers as he said. And people who are smart, will save
> up an emergency fund so that even emergencies don't require carrying a
> credit card balance.
>
>

Maybe I am in the wrong newsgroup to be discussing this. I would imagine
that most people in this newsgroup make damn good money and can afford to
have a nice chunk of change in the bank.

Unfortunately, I am not in that situation.

Luckily, we don't use credit cards other than Sears, so we don't worry much
about interest on credit cards.

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Paul Tomblin

November 26th 04, 02:37 AM

In a previous article, "Chuck" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you know.
>> Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money ahead of
>> time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
>> instant gratification stuff.
>If I get a new job and have to go to Sears and buy $2,000 worth of tools, I
>will not be able to pay the balance off in one month. But I gotta have the
>tools if I want the job.

And if you get a bank loan instead of carrying it on your credit card, the
interest rates will be *much* lower and won't go up on a banker's whim.

That's what I did when I needed a $5000 computer to set up my computer
consulting business right out of college. Ok, initially I was stupid and
used a credit card, but I changed to a bank loan as soon as I could get
one.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I think I'd like to see a Simpsons episode starting up with Bart Simpson
writing 'I will not attempt to undermine the Usenet Cabal'.
-- J. D. Falk

Andrew Gideon

November 26th 04, 02:42 AM

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>> One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will
>>> screw the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.
>>
>> has American Express or Diners Club done the same to you?
>> (just curious)
>
> We'll never know -- I threw BOTH of them out right after we opened, after
> they tried to charge us 5% for each transaction. (The other cards --
> Visa, Mastercard & Discover -- charge us "only" 4% for the privilege of
> "working" with them.)

Interesting. I wonder if the 5% plus following their own rules (if they
do!) might end up costing you less in the long run.

Personally, I'm a big believer in not trusting parties that don't follow
even their own rules. I always worry that the next "failure" will be
bigger than any before.

- Andrew

Steven Barnes

November 26th 04, 02:58 AM

Discover is nasty about this. My ex is in debt up to her @$$. One card is a
Discover. Cash advances were at a horrific 20-30%. Purchases were lower, but
still in high teens. Majority of balance was purchases. She had money to pay
off the cash advance portion, since that was eating her alive. Dickscover
wouldn't allow it. "Pay off the purchase balance first, then you can pay off
the cash advance portion". She wont have the purchase stuff paid off for
years. Great income for Dickscover.

Now, I have a Discover too, but I never put a charge on it that I cannot pay
off in full. Never. Ever. I'll take out a loan at my bank first.

Whew, I feel better. Now, where's them leftovers....

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:48qpd.146702$bk1.38982@fed1read05...
> I've noticed that also, all balances were paid in full, and I only use the
> AOPA card for aviation purposes to get the 5% rebate and then pay in full.
> And yet the rate goes up on recurring balances, while they offer 4%
transfer
> credit.
>
> Read the fine print, any payments made pay off the lower interest rate
debt
> first while the higher "revolving balance" interest rate continues to
> accrue. Some companies do apply payments equally to all debt at different
> rates based on the ratio on each debt.
>
> BT
>
> "RS" > wrote in message
> news:m3opd.97109$5K2.54232@attbi_s03...
> > If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on
your
> > last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA cardholders, even
> > if you pay on time.
> >
> > So check your credit card statements and call AOPA credit card services
to
> > complain.
> > And also call MBNA to drop the rate back down.
> >
>
>

aluckyguess

November 26th 04, 03:36 AM

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "RS" > said:
>>If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on your
>>last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA cardholders, even
>>if
>>you pay on time.
>
> Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a sucker.
> The credit card companies hate me because I haven't paid a cent of
> interest to any of them in 3 years. I get about 5 envelopes full of Visa
> checks every month (as well as come-ons for new cards) because they want
> to sucker me into that debt cycle.
>
They dont hate you they love you. They still get 2-3 pecent from the company
you used the credit card on. I do the same thing I buy everything on a
credit card. That way it is insured (somewhat) and I have a record. I pay
them off every month. I also have GMC card and when I buy a new car you can
get up to 3000.00 off the price of the car.
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> Microsoft - Where quality is job 1.0.1

Judah

November 26th 04, 03:48 AM

Matt Whiting > wrote in
:

> Mike V. wrote:

<Snip>

> ... The unknown downside is that this passive
> approach likely would have encouraged more 9/11 like attacks and the
> cost of them would have been horrendous.
>
>
> Matt

Your presumption is that there will not be anymore 9/11 like attacks.

In fact, both before and after 9/11/2001, there have been many Al Qaeda
sponsored terrorist attacks.

See http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884893.html

In the 8 years between 1993 and 9/11/2001, there were 5 Al-Qaeda
sponsored terrorist attacks on US properties (including the 1993 bombing
of WTC, but not including the attack in Seattle that was foiled). None of
those properties were actually here on the MainLand.

In the 3 years between 9/11/2001 and today, there have been 15 Al-Qaeda
sponsored attacks, 3 of which were directly on Americans or American
properties (not including the Shoe Bomber who was foiled). Of course,
none of them has been on the MainLand either.

Statements like yours seem to be founded on some fantasy that the Bush
approach - our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan - has somehow discouraged
and curtailed terrorist attacks.

The unfortunate reality is that it clearly has not. And only time will
tell whether they will be able to deliver another attack on our MainLand
again. It is unclear what effect ANY other strategy would have had on
terrorism - whether more or less aggressive than Bush's. But make no
mistake. Terrorist attacks on the US are not DOWN as a result of Bush's
tactics...

Judah

November 26th 04, 03:53 AM

"RS" > wrote in news:XVspd.565691$mD.442744@attbi_s02:

<snip>
> What would you do if they hiked the APR on your auto or home loan just
> because they felt like it, even if you had a perfect payment history?
> Well, that's what the credit card companys are doing now - they are
> changing the rules mid-stream. Credit is credit - regardless what it is
> for. You guys on your high moral horses about paying credit cards off
> every month do not impress me (unless you have zero credit - no home,
> auto, commercial loans at all).

I would immediately refinance with a company that offered a fixed rate
mortgage.

Just the same way that I don't have an AOPA credit card - but if I did, and
they jacked up my rate, I would take one of the many 0% balance transfer
offers and transfer the balance to a card that was not involved in usury.

Paul Tomblin

November 26th 04, 04:01 AM

In a previous article, "aluckyguess" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> The credit card companies hate me because I haven't paid a cent of
>> interest to any of them in 3 years. I get about 5 envelopes full of Visa
>They dont hate you they love you. They still get 2-3 pecent from the company

No, they hate me. Do you know what I read in the newspaper a couple of
days ago? That credit card companies refer to people who don't carry a
balance and who don't pay interest as "dead beats". On the other hand,
the guys running up huge debts that they'll probably never pay off are the
people they love - they'll get 4 or 5 times the actual debt in interest
payments, and then sue the person's estate when they die.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I once successfully declined a departmental retreat, saying that on
that day I planned instead to advance.
-- Alan J. Rosenthal

Morgans

November 26th 04, 04:20 AM

"Judah" > wrote

> Just the same way that I don't have an AOPA credit card - but if I did,
and
> they jacked up my rate, I would take one of the many 0% balance transfer
> offers and transfer the balance to a card that was not involved in usury.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If you call the bank that has the account, and tell them you will be closing
your account if they do not match the other card's going rates, chances are
they will lower your rate to match.

Try it and see. It has worked for me in the past. (not the AOPA card, but
all companies want your business)
--
Jim in NC

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Dick

November 26th 04, 04:41 AM

"RS" > wrote in message
news:XVspd.565691$mD.442744@attbi_s02...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:3Lspd.391816$wV.73568@attbi_s54...
>>> But tell me, what will you do when home, auto and commercial proprerty
>>> loan companies hike their rates just because they feel like it? Even if
>>> you pay on time, every time. All they need to do is lobby hard enough to
>>> put it into law and you are totally screwed.
>>>
>>> What then, Mr Clever Guy?
>>
>> I'm not following you. If you pay "on time, every time" -- credit card
>> companies CAN'T charge you any interest.
>
> What would you do if they hiked the APR on your auto or home loan just
> because they felt like it, even if you had a perfect payment history?
> Well, that's what the credit card companys are doing now - they are
> changing the rules mid-stream. Credit is credit - regardless what it is
> for. You guys on your high moral horses about paying credit cards off
> every month do not impress me (unless you have zero credit - no home,
> auto, commercial loans at all).

You are truly ignorant. Most secured loans have fixed rates and fixed time
periods. You should read your credit card agreements. If you think you can
do better, then by all means start a money lending business. Otherwise,
keep your mouth shut and take your whining elsewhere. If you really feel
wronged, cancel the card and take your business elsewhere.

>
>

Dave Stadt

November 26th 04, 04:46 AM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> >>If you have an MBNA credit card, look at your statements...if you like
> >>being screwed by the credit card company then ignore this thread and do
> >>nothing.
> >
> >
> > You talk like MBNA owes you something. If you don't want to use their
> > damned card -- don't.
> >
> > If MBNA charges you 20% interest -- and you're dumb enough to use their
> > card -- who cares? It's not like there aren't 100 other credit card
> > companies begging for your business, so either pay the bill off each
month,
> > or tell 'em to take a hike.
> >
> > We haven't paid a nickel of credit card interest since 1985 -- and that
was
> > to pay for our wedding. (And I've felt stupid about paying *that* ever
> > since.) The ONLY valid reason to use a credit card is to consolidate
all of
> > your bills into one easily payable check each month.
>
> Actually, there are lots of other valid reasons. One is that in many
> places you can't do things like rent a car without plastic. Many car
> rental places won't take cash.
>
>
> Matt

So you pay the bill off when you get it. Get it?

Andrew Sarangan

November 26th 04, 05:49 AM

"RS" > wrote in news:m3opd.97109$5K2.54232@attbi_s03:

> If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on
> your last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA
> cardholders, even if you pay on time.

Even if you pay on time? I always paid each month in full and was never
charged a red cent. Do you have a reference to back up your claim?

Jay Beckman

November 26th 04, 05:57 AM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In a previous article, "Chuck" > said:
>> >
>> >"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a
> sucker.
>> >
>> >Or isn't as wealthy or well off financially as you are...
>>
>> Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you know.
>> Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money ahead of
>> time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
>> instant gratification stuff.
>>
>
>
> Ya know... I didn't say that paying the balance off was a bad thing. I
> guess
> what kinda ticked me off about your post was you said that people were
> idiots or suckers for not paying the balance. I merely pointed out that
> some
> people can't do that.
>
> If I get a new job and have to go to Sears and buy $2,000 worth of tools,
> I
> will not be able to pay the balance off in one month. But I gotta have the
> tools if I want the job.
>

If I had to buy $2K worth of anything to get a job, I'd be much more worried
about which column they'd go in for the deduction off my taxes.

Jay

Mike V.

November 26th 04, 06:11 AM

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
...
> "RS" > wrote in news:m3opd.97109$5K2.54232@attbi_s03:
>
>> If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on
>> your last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA
>> cardholders, even if you pay on time.
>
> Even if you pay on time? I always paid each month in full and was never
> charged a red cent. Do you have a reference to back up your claim?

People are really not too smart around here. Paying on time means paying at
least the minimum payment, on time.

From what I hear, MBNA recently changed a bunch of AOPA customers from fixed
interest rate to variable with a fine print clause which basically said..
"we are changing you to variable rate unless you send us letter of objection
within X days". And when people called MBNA to find out whether this meant a
rate change was coming, they said "NO" on the phone... but a rate change was
instituted anyway

Blanche

November 26th 04, 07:29 AM

Jay Beckman > wrote:
>If I had to buy $2K worth of anything to get a job, I'd be much more worried
>about which column they'd go in for the deduction off my taxes.

Unreimbursed Employee Expenses
IIRC, Form 2701 off the Schedule A

Jay Beckman

November 26th 04, 08:03 AM

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Beckman > wrote:
>>If I had to buy $2K worth of anything to get a job, I'd be much more
>>worried
>>about which column they'd go in for the deduction off my taxes.
>
> Unreimbursed Employee Expenses
> IIRC, Form 2701 off the Schedule A
>

LOL...

I knew someone would offer up the exact information...

Jay

Earl Grieda

November 26th 04, 09:57 AM

Don't confuse Matt with the truth. He is still trying to convince people
that our 18th century founding fathers felt that any 21st century alcoholic
with an assault rifle is a member of some nebulous "militia".

Earl G

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:8Wtpd.391984$wV.154119@attbi_s54...
> Yeah. Like Bush has taken full responsibility for getting us into Iraq
under
> wrong and false pretenses. Wasn't HIS fault. It was bad intel.
Yeah...that's
> it...bad intel. That's the ticket.
>
> Oh...wait...Bush isn't a liberal, is he?
>
> Get back on your meds, Matt.
>
> mike regish
>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Casey, you obviously don't understand liberals. They feel that they
> > shouldn't have to take responsibility for their actions, but rather be
> > protected and looked after by the government.
> >
> > Matt
> >
>
>

Rich

November 26th 04, 01:17 PM

I've wondered that too. We put everything we buy (even my daughter's
college tuition) on our Discover (and pay it off next month, of course)
and get the cashback discount. Keep a Visa and American Express for the
few places that don't take Discover (like Costco).

I always figured that Discover charges the merchant more than Visa...
but your posting suggests otherwise.

Rich

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
> but Discover? Everyone else charges to use their cards, while Discover
> actually PAYS you to use their card -- yet they are a distant third or
> fourth in the industry.
>

Just go look it up!

November 26th 04, 01:19 PM

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 02:58:02 GMT, "Steven Barnes"
> wrote:

>Discover is nasty about this. My ex is in debt up to her @$$. One card is a
>Discover. Cash advances were at a horrific 20-30%. Purchases were lower, but
>still in high teens. Majority of balance was purchases. She had money to pay
>off the cash advance portion, since that was eating her alive. Dickscover
>wouldn't allow it. "Pay off the purchase balance first, then you can pay off
>the cash advance portion". She wont have the purchase stuff paid off for
>years. Great income for Dickscover.

Discover is just nasty.

I moved. Called Discover to change my address. Got 2 statements with
the new address, then didn't notice I didn't get a statement, then
next month got a statement which showed a $42 30 day overdue balance.
I called them to figure out what was going on and they sent me a
reprint of the statement, which had the old address on it. No idea
why the post office didn't forward it, but I digress. After griping
to them about a late column entry because of their mistake they
basically told me to take a leap. Couple of months later I picked up
my credit report and found that they had actually reported me as 30
day late on a whopping $42 balance because they mailed the statement
to the wrong address, even though their computer had done statements
to the correct one in the intervening period. Then, even though it
was their fault and I had never carried a balance before that month,
they refused to remove the entry from my credit report. I closed my
account on the spot.

Rich

November 26th 04, 01:25 PM

Well, the rate on an auto or home loan is fixed by the contract, silly!
Or else it is specifically bound by the contract to whatever
increases that are in the contract. Just like the rate on your credit
card is variable according to the contract you signed when you applied.
You DID read what you agreed to, didn't you? If you didn't agree with
it, why did you sign the application?

BTW, in fact I do not have ANY debt outstanding. It's fun to tell that
to people calling offering re-financing. I'm not rich (except in
name)... just frugal.

And frankly, I don't care whether I impress you. Frankly, you don't
impress me, much.

Rich

RS wrote:

> What would you do if they hiked the APR on your auto or home loan just
> because they felt like it, even if you had a perfect payment history? Well,
> that's what the credit card companys are doing now - they are changing the
> rules mid-stream. Credit is credit - regardless what it is for. You guys on
> your high moral horses about paying credit cards off every month do not
> impress me (unless you have zero credit - no home, auto, commercial loans at
> all).
>
>

David Lesher

November 26th 04, 01:25 PM

(Paul Tomblin) writes:

>In a previous article, "RS" > said:
>>If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on your
>>last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA cardholders, even if
>>you pay on time.

>Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a sucker.
>The credit card companies hate me because I haven't paid a cent of
>interest to any of them in 3 years. I get about 5 envelopes full of Visa
>checks every month (as well as come-ons for new cards) because they want
>to sucker me into that debt cycle.

Paul is what the credit card industry calls a "deadbeat"....
When the banks started the cc: industry in the 60's; they used
to cancel such people. Federal regulations somewhat constrain
them now.

There was a Frontline on the cc industry just last week. See
if your PBS station is rerunning it.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher

November 26th 04, 01:29 PM

Matt Whiting > writes:

>Actually, there are lots of other valid reasons. One is that in many
>places you can't do things like rent a car without plastic. Many car
>rental places won't take cash.

Years ago, Hertz wouldn't even allow a _2nd driver_ who didn't have
one. They gave me all kinds of BS reason.

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher

November 26th 04, 01:36 PM

('Vejita' S. Cousin) writes:

> Well in my case I don't have a 'real' credit card. I have a debit visa
>(work just the same). I keep most of my spendable money in checking then
>use the Visa the same as cash. If I can't afford something then I don't
>buy it.

It does NOT work the same.

a) Don't try renting a car.

b) The consumer protection laws for Debit/ATM cards are far weaker.

The issuers love them, because they have zero float. They also have
lower processing costs than checks AND they get 3-5% from the
merchant.....

--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

David Lesher

November 26th 04, 01:40 PM

Another "we'll screw you for paying cash" item is cell phones. Just
try and buy one for cash; i.e. no contract.

You'll find you pay 3-10x per minute for the priviledge of paying
in advance. And of course, the phone is not "free" either..

{In the EU, prepay phones are both common and inexpensive..}
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Matt Whiting

November 26th 04, 03:33 PM

mike regish wrote:

> Taking responsibility for screwing up is what I'd like to see. Show me
> where he's done that. Any idiot knows he's responsible for getting us there.
> Saying that he'd screw up again is not exactly reassuring.

I'd like to see ANY politician admit they've screwed up. I don't think
I've ever seen that happen.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 26th 04, 03:40 PM

Chuck wrote:

> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In a previous article, "Chuck" > said:
>>
>>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a
>
> sucker.
>
>>>Or isn't as wealthy or well off financially as you are...
>>
>>Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you know.
>>Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money ahead of
>>time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
>>instant gratification stuff.
>>
>
>
>
> Ya know... I didn't say that paying the balance off was a bad thing. I guess
> what kinda ticked me off about your post was you said that people were
> idiots or suckers for not paying the balance. I merely pointed out that some
> people can't do that.
>
> If I get a new job and have to go to Sears and buy $2,000 worth of tools, I
> will not be able to pay the balance off in one month. But I gotta have the
> tools if I want the job.

That is exactly why any financial advisor worth their salt recommends
that you save an amount equal to 3 - 6 months of expenses as an
"emergency" cash fund. Yes, it takes time to do this and a lot of
self-control, which most Americans no longer have, but that eliminates
the need to ever use a credit card for a situation like this ... or a
transmission failure in your car ... or a leak in your roof, etc.

Rather than save, most people use credit as their emergency fund. And,
as Paul said, that is a sucker play.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 26th 04, 03:44 PM

Chuck wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Chuck wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>In a previous article, "RS" > said:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on
>>>
>>>your
>>>
>>>
>>>>>last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA cardholders,
>
> even
>
>>>if
>>>
>>>
>>>>>you pay on time.
>>>>
>>>>Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a
>
> sucker.
>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>Or isn't as wealthy or well off financially as you are...
>>
>>Just the opposite. Someone who is wealthy could afford to carry a
>>balance, it is folks who aren't who shouldn't be. I'm with Paul, I've
>>never paid a cent of interest on a credit card in nearly 20 years now.
>>People who carry credit card balances, for anything other than a real
>>emergency, are suckers as he said. And people who are smart, will save
>>up an emergency fund so that even emergencies don't require carrying a
>>credit card balance.
>>
>>
>
>
> Maybe I am in the wrong newsgroup to be discussing this. I would imagine
> that most people in this newsgroup make damn good money and can afford to
> have a nice chunk of change in the bank.
>
> Unfortunately, I am not in that situation.

Actually, it has little to do with how much you make, at least once
above a truly subsistence income level, which varies by locale. Someone
below this level, truly has no options, but running up credit cards
doesn't help. They need to seek help from a charitable agency, etc.
until they can restore sufficient income to live on.

The real issue in 95% of situations, is that spending is simply out of
line with income. I've taught financial management seminars in my
church and studied this topic for about 20 years. Admittedly, their are
people who simply don't have enough income to live on, but that is
really a fairly small percentage of the population. In almost all
cases, spending can be adjusted to live within one's means and even save
money, however small amount that may be at first. Living on credit
means you are paying money for interest that gives you no value in the
long run. Over the course of your lifetime, you are even poorer for it.
That is a simple fact.

> Luckily, we don't use credit cards other than Sears, so we don't worry much
> about interest on credit cards.

Smart move.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 26th 04, 03:49 PM

Judah wrote:

> Matt Whiting > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>Mike V. wrote:
>
>
> <Snip>
>
>>... The unknown downside is that this passive
>>approach likely would have encouraged more 9/11 like attacks and the
>>cost of them would have been horrendous.
>>
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> Your presumption is that there will not be anymore 9/11 like attacks.

Your presumption is wrong. My presumption is that there would be more
attacks under an administration with Clinton-like policies than under
one with Bush-like policies. Since the Twin Towers and Pentagon attacks
were conceived, planned and partially executed (the flight training)
under Clinton, I count a good portion of that against him as well. I
never suggested that we'd be free of attacks. I don't think that is
likely anytime soon.

Matt

Frank

November 26th 04, 03:51 PM

David Lesher wrote:

> Matt Whiting > writes:
>
>
>>Actually, there are lots of other valid reasons. One is that in many
>>places you can't do things like rent a car without plastic. Many car
>>rental places won't take cash.
>
> Years ago, Hertz wouldn't even allow a _2nd driver_ who didn't have
> one. They gave me all kinds of BS reason.
>

Last time I rented from Hertz they required *2* credit cards! Lucky I had my
Visa (debit) with me and they took it because my MasterCharge is the only
credit card I have.

--
Frank....H

Matt Whiting

November 26th 04, 03:54 PM

Dave Stadt wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>If you have an MBNA credit card, look at your statements...if you like
>>>>being screwed by the credit card company then ignore this thread and do
>>>>nothing.
>>>
>>>
>>>You talk like MBNA owes you something. If you don't want to use their
>>>damned card -- don't.
>>>
>>>If MBNA charges you 20% interest -- and you're dumb enough to use their
>>>card -- who cares? It's not like there aren't 100 other credit card
>>>companies begging for your business, so either pay the bill off each
>
> month,
>
>>>or tell 'em to take a hike.
>>>
>>>We haven't paid a nickel of credit card interest since 1985 -- and that
>
> was
>
>>>to pay for our wedding. (And I've felt stupid about paying *that* ever
>>>since.) The ONLY valid reason to use a credit card is to consolidate
>
> all of
>
>>>your bills into one easily payable check each month.
>>
>>Actually, there are lots of other valid reasons. One is that in many
>>places you can't do things like rent a car without plastic. Many car
>>rental places won't take cash.
>>
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> So you pay the bill off when you get it. Get it?

Yes, as I said earlier, that is exactly what I do. My point was that
there is more than ONE valid reason to have a credit card. For me, bill
consolidation isn't even the most important reason.

Matt

Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 04:25 PM

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> I got news for you, buddy. I'm the one arguing that people shouldn't
> carry credit card balances if they don't want to pay credit card interest
> rates, and I'm a conservative's worst nightmare - I'm a Trudeau Liberal.
>

Which Trudeau?

Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 04:26 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:oOupd.565787$mD.26031@attbi_s02...
>
> Taking responsibility for screwing up is what I'd like to see. Show me
> where he's done that. Any idiot knows he's responsible for getting us
> there. Saying that he'd screw up again is not exactly reassuring.
>

What screw-up?

Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 04:28 PM

"Mike V." > wrote in message
news:ybupd.146104$HA.7378@attbi_s01...
>
> Fiscal responsibility? Excuse me while I laugh my ass off... such words
> are a total riot coming from a so-called conservative.
> Conservatives/Republicans/Bush are the very last people on this planet who
> could talk about fiscal responsibility.
>
> Conservatives drove us into ever increasing federal debt, oil prices
> through the roof, the weakest dollar ever, growth in federal spending. And
> you want to talk about taking responsibility. Yeah, right...

Then how is it we managed to get so far in debt with liberals in power?

Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 04:39 PM

"RS" > wrote in message
news:aGppd.564849$mD.370862@attbi_s02...
>
> Do you work for MBNA? You sound like the person I talked to at MBNA
> customer > service....I told him that the fed did not raise interest rates
> by 3 to 4%, which is what MBNA is doing.
>
> If you have an MBNA credit card, look at your statements...if you like
> being screwed by the credit card company then ignore this thread and do
> nothing.

I have an MBNA credit card and I hardly feel like I'm being screwed. They
charge me no annual fee and I never carry a balance so I never pay any
interest. I use the card for nearly all of my purchases, since I don't have
to pay for them for 30 to 60 days after purchase I get an effective
interest-free loan on whatever amount I spend. There's not even any postage
cost as I can pay online. The interest rate is irrelevant, any percentage
of zero is still zero.

Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 04:42 PM

"RS" > wrote in message
news:XVspd.565691$mD.442744@attbi_s02...
>>
>> I'm not following you. If you pay "on time, every time" -- credit card
>> companies CAN'T charge you any interest.
>>
>
> What would you do if they hiked the APR on your auto or home loan just
> because they felt like it, even if you had a perfect payment history?

How could credit card companies hike the APR on my auto or home loan?

John Harlow

November 26th 04, 04:42 PM

> I have an MBNA credit card and I hardly feel like I'm being screwed.

To feel even less screwed ;) get a rewards card and actually get paid to use
it.

John Galban

November 26th 04, 04:46 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message >...
>
> Ya know... I didn't say that paying the balance off was a bad thing. I guess
> what kinda ticked me off about your post was you said that people were
> idiots or suckers for not paying the balance. I merely pointed out that some
> people can't do that.

And those people are suckers. If you borrow money at several times
the going interest rate (which is what you'll eventually do if you
carry a balance), you're a sucker. The interest rate and fee
structures that are currently allowed, were considered loan sharking
in the recent past, a practice that was relegated to mostly criminal
organizations.

I saw a recent interview where a Harvard contract law professor was
asked to explain (in layman's terms) an average cardholders agreement.
Although the average consumer is supposed to know what is contained
in a contract, she said she wasn't sure about all the details herself.
On top of that, what she did ascertain is that the average
cardholders agreeement gives the card issuer the right to charge
whatever rate they want, and to change it with 15 days notice, usually
by means of an insert full of small print with your bill. So even if
you accept a bank's offer of a card for 1% interest for six months or
whatever, there is really not much keeping them from bumping your rate
(and making money) any time they want. The agreements are set up to
give the issuing bank a ridiculous advantage in every aspect of the
transaction. Borrowing money under those terms is truly a sucker bet.

I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 04:48 PM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Nlspd.150701$R05.147436@attbi_s53...
>
> One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will screw
> the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.
>
> Over the past couple of years we have had a handful of guests with
> guaranteed reservations not show up at the inn, who were charged for one
> night's stay. Two of them simply called their credit card companies and
> disputed the charge -- at which point the credit card company immediately
> credited them and charged us back, no questions asked!
>
> It was then up to US to "prove" to VISA that the guest had stayed with
> us -- which, of course, they had not. Despite the fact that these
> guests insisted on "guaranteed reservations", despite the fact that we had
> pre-authorized their stay on their credit card, despite the fact that we
> had mailed post cards to their home, reminding them of their
> reservation -- and despite the fact that we followed VISA's own procedures
> for no-shows to the letter -- we were totally helpless, and had to eat the
> bill. No amount of documentation or phone calls mattered to VISA.
>
> THAT is the real credit card scandal that is sweeping America right now --
> but no one outside of the industry knows (or, quite frankly) cares about
> it. But we ALL pay for scumbags like these in the end.
>

I agree that it's entirely proper to charge a no-show for the one night
stay, but unless you turned someone else away because of the guaranteed
reservation what bill are you eating?

Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 04:50 PM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Fuspd.85361$V41.50473@attbi_s52...
>
> Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
> but Discover? Everyone else charges to use their cards, while Discover
> actually PAYS you to use their card -- yet they are a distant third or
> fourth in the industry.
>
> Marketing is everything to American consumers, I guess...
>

VISA and Mastercard do not charge me for using their cards.

John Galban

November 26th 04, 04:58 PM

"RS" > wrote in message news:<Bvspd.565639$mD.474111@attbi_s02>...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:%9spd.150672$R05.66688@attbi_s53...
> >> If you have an MBNA credit card, look at your statements...if you like
> >> being screwed by the credit card company then ignore this thread and do
> >> nothing.
> >
> > You talk like MBNA owes you something. If you don't want to use their
> > damned card -- don't.
> >
> > If MBNA charges you 20% interest -- and you're dumb enough to use their
> > card -- who cares? It's not like there aren't 100 other credit card
> > companies begging for your business, so either pay the bill off each
> > month, or tell 'em to take a hike.
>
> Ok. So you also support legalized loan sharking. Fine.

Jay mentioned that he hasn't payed card interest since 1985. It
appears that YOU are the one who supports legalized loan sharking.
You support it with cash out your pocket.

>
> But tell me, what will you do when home, auto and commercial proprerty loan
> companies hike their rates just because they feel like it? Even if you pay
> on time, every time. All they need to do is lobby hard enough to put it into
> law and you are totally screwed.

Not likely (unless you live in Delaware or South Dakota). The
legitimate loan business is pretty well regulated by feds and states.
Credit cards are the dark side of the loan business. Lenders know
that a legitimate, knowledgable borrower would never sign a loan
contract that allowed the lender to jack up interest and/or fees at
their whim. That is exactly what you do when you borrow money on a
card.

>
> What then, Mr Clever Guy?

Jay hasn't paid the loansharks since 1985. You're complaining that
MBNA jacked up your rate (which they have every right to do under your
contract). Who's the clever guy?

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Paul Tomblin

November 26th 04, 05:24 PM

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I got news for you, buddy. I'm the one arguing that people shouldn't
>> carry credit card balances if they don't want to pay credit card interest
>> rates, and I'm a conservative's worst nightmare - I'm a Trudeau Liberal.
>Which Trudeau?

Pierre.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Being lectured on fiscal responsibility by George Bush is like being
lectured on law and order by Tony Soprano." - John Kerry

gatt

November 26th 04, 05:31 PM

Did you see the Frontline segment about this sort of thing the other day?
This is actually normal. The contracts clearly state that they can raise
the rates however they want. MBNA is one of the big three that are
notorious for it.

-c

"RS" > wrote in message
news:m3opd.97109$5K2.54232@attbi_s03...
> If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on your
> last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA cardholders, even
if
> you pay on time.
>
> So check your credit card statements and call AOPA credit card services to
> complain.
> And also call MBNA to drop the rate back down.
>
>

Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 05:53 PM

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
> said:
>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> I got news for you, buddy. I'm the one arguing that people shouldn't
>>> carry credit card balances if they don't want to pay credit card
>>> interest
>>> rates, and I'm a conservative's worst nightmare - I'm a Trudeau Liberal.
>>Which Trudeau?
>
> Pierre.
>

Why would a Trudeau Liberal be a conservative's worst nightmare?

Foster

November 26th 04, 06:19 PM

And, I don't believe retail credit rates were lowered anywhere near
proportionally to the fed rates when they were declining.

RS wrote:
> "Daniel L. Lieberman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The Fed rates have gone up so so should retail credit rates.
>
>
> Answer the question: Have fed rates gone up 4%?
> No... Not even close. So there is no interest rate based justification for
> such a rate hike.
>
>

Foster

November 26th 04, 06:25 PM

To paraphrase another post:

You talk like [VISA] owes you something. If you don't want to use their
damned [service]-- don't.

If [VISA] charges you 20% interest -- and you're dumb enough to use
their card [services]-- who cares? It's not like there aren't 100
other credit card companies begging for your business, so either [accept
their rules], or tell 'em to take a hike.

;-)

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Kinda timely since PBS's Frontline had a show on credit cards last
>>Tuesday.
>>Very eye opening, it seems that a couple of Supreme Court decisions allow
>>credit card companies to charge whatever interest rate they want and to
>>raise the interest rate on money already on the balance.
>>Most of the credit card holders interviewed had never read or didn't
>>understand the "fine print" in their card contracts.
>
>
> One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will screw
> the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.
>
> Over the past couple of years we have had a handful of guests with
> guaranteed reservations not show up at the inn, who were charged for one
> night's stay. Two of them simply called their credit card companies and
> disputed the charge -- at which point the credit card company immediately
> credited them and charged us back, no questions asked!
>
> It was then up to US to "prove" to VISA that the guest had stayed with us --
> which, of course, they had not. Despite the fact that these guests
> insisted on "guaranteed reservations", despite the fact that we had
> pre-authorized their stay on their credit card, despite the fact that we had
> mailed post cards to their home, reminding them of their reservation -- and
> despite the fact that we followed VISA's own procedures for no-shows to the
> letter -- we were totally helpless, and had to eat the bill. No amount of
> documentation or phone calls mattered to VISA.
>
> THAT is the real credit card scandal that is sweeping America right now --
> but no one outside of the industry knows (or, quite frankly) cares about it.
> But we ALL pay for scumbags like these in the end.

Matt Whiting

November 26th 04, 07:52 PM

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>
>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>I got news for you, buddy. I'm the one arguing that people shouldn't
>>>carry credit card balances if they don't want to pay credit card interest
>>>rates, and I'm a conservative's worst nightmare - I'm a Trudeau Liberal.
>>
>>Which Trudeau?
>
>
> Pierre.
>
>

How is Canada these days? I haven't visited since before 9/11 due to
the hassles at the border. It was bad enough before.

Matt

Chuck

November 26th 04, 08:47 PM

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Chuck" > said:
> >"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you
know.
> >> Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money ahead
of
> >> time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
> >> instant gratification stuff.
> >If I get a new job and have to go to Sears and buy $2,000 worth of tools,
I
> >will not be able to pay the balance off in one month. But I gotta have
the
> >tools if I want the job.
>
> And if you get a bank loan instead of carrying it on your credit card, the
> interest rates will be *much* lower and won't go up on a banker's whim.
>
> That's what I did when I needed a $5000 computer to set up my computer
> consulting business right out of college. Ok, initially I was stupid and
> used a credit card, but I changed to a bank loan as soon as I could get
> one.
>

That's fine, but what if my credit is poor and I can't get a bank loan?

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Newps

November 26th 04, 08:50 PM

Matt Whiting wrote:

>>
>>
>
> How is Canada these days? I haven't visited since before 9/11 due to
> the hassles at the border. It was bad enough before.

We go to Canada a couple times a winter to play hockey. Flash them a
hockey stick and you sail right thru. Getting back takes a little
longer. Now they take your ID and run everyone thru the computer to see
if any of you are wanted.

Mike Rapoport

November 26th 04, 08:56 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In a previous article, "RS" > said:
>> >If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on
> your
>> >last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA cardholders, even
> if
>> >you pay on time.
>>
>> Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a sucker.
>
> <snip>
>
> Or isn't as wealthy or well off financially as you are...
>

You have to be wealthier to carry a balance than not.

Mike
MU-2

Chuck

November 26th 04, 09:07 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck wrote:
>
> > "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>In a previous article, "Chuck" > said:
> >>
> >>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>>Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a
> >
> > sucker.
> >
> >>>Or isn't as wealthy or well off financially as you are...
> >>
> >>Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you
know.
> >>Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money ahead
of
> >>time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
> >>instant gratification stuff.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Ya know... I didn't say that paying the balance off was a bad thing. I
guess
> > what kinda ticked me off about your post was you said that people were
> > idiots or suckers for not paying the balance. I merely pointed out that
some
> > people can't do that.
> >
> > If I get a new job and have to go to Sears and buy $2,000 worth of
tools, I
> > will not be able to pay the balance off in one month. But I gotta have
the
> > tools if I want the job.
>
> That is exactly why any financial advisor worth their salt recommends
> that you save an amount equal to 3 - 6 months of expenses as an
> "emergency" cash fund. Yes, it takes time to do this and a lot of
> self-control, which most Americans no longer have, but that eliminates
> the need to ever use a credit card for a situation like this ... or a
> transmission failure in your car ... or a leak in your roof, etc.
>
> Rather than save, most people use credit as their emergency fund. And,
> as Paul said, that is a sucker play.
>

And some people like me are financially strapped and do not have the money
to save after the bills are paid. In fact, I was putting $20 a paycheck into
the credit union at work trying to save a little bit and had to stop making
that deposit because I needed that $20 per pay period just to make bills. In
the last 3 years, our health insurance at work has gone up 135% and co-pays,
etc have risen also. I have 3 prescriptions, my wife has 5 and our son has
one. That's around $150 per month or a little more. Both vehicles are paid
off, so no car payments. We rent a house and it is actually about $100 below
the going rate for our area. Electric bills are out the roof. Do I need to
keep going? In otherwords, by me living paycheck to paycheck, and my yearly
raises at 3% if I am lucky that don't even cover cost of living, I am doing
everything that I can to stay afloat and will resort to whatever means I
have to to provide for my wife and son. I wish that you people that make
$100,000 a year, own airplanes, drive Lexus and Mercedes and live in half
million dollar houses could understand...

When I got married, my wife got hurt and we ended up getting behind on bills
because she couldn't work for almost a year. Everytime we see daylight,
something happens and we get sucked back into the hole again.

The point that I keep trying to make is that some people are not able to
save because of their financial situation. It seems that most in this NG
don't seem to understand that.

I understand what yall are saying about the 3-6 month cushion, and that is
great if you can afford to do so. I wish that I could. If so, I would have a
cushion in the bank.

I do take offense to being called a sucker and an idiot because I have 1
credit card that I am paying interest on. In my situation, I have no choice.

If you want to call people who have 15 credit cards with balances and they
buy big screen TV's, stereos, jewelry, etc on credit, I will agree with you
then, but think about the persons situation before you call people names...

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Mike Rapoport

November 26th 04, 09:08 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In a previous article, "Chuck" > said:
>> >"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you
> know.
>> >> Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money ahead
> of
>> >> time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
>> >> instant gratification stuff.
>> >If I get a new job and have to go to Sears and buy $2,000 worth of
>> >tools,
> I
>> >will not be able to pay the balance off in one month. But I gotta have
> the
>> >tools if I want the job.
>>
>> And if you get a bank loan instead of carrying it on your credit card,
>> the
>> interest rates will be *much* lower and won't go up on a banker's whim.
>>
>> That's what I did when I needed a $5000 computer to set up my computer
>> consulting business right out of college. Ok, initially I was stupid and
>> used a credit card, but I changed to a bank loan as soon as I could get
>> one.
>>
>
>
> That's fine, but what if my credit is poor and I can't get a bank loan?
>
>
Then you pay a high rate because you are a poor risk.

Keep in mind that this discussion was started by someone with an AOPA card.
Presumably he is a pilot and managed to pay $5K for flight training.

Mike
MU-2

Chuck

November 26th 04, 09:22 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> >Chuck wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe I am in the wrong newsgroup to be discussing this. I would imagine
> > that most people in this newsgroup make damn good money and can afford
to
> > have a nice chunk of change in the bank.
> >
> > Unfortunately, I am not in that situation.
>
> Actually, it has little to do with how much you make, at least once
> above a truly subsistence income level, which varies by locale. Someone
> below this level, truly has no options, but running up credit cards
> doesn't help. They need to seek help from a charitable agency, etc.
> until they can restore sufficient income to live on.

<snip>

Remember, each situation is different...

As embarrassing as this is to say, but I will say that it wasn't our fault,
we had our electricity disconnected almost 2 years ago.

It is a long story, but my wife's best friend passed away suddenly and our
thoughts were with her family. We did receive a termination notice, but
again, we were with the family. We realized the notice and paid the bill *in
full* over the internet *before* the due date. We were still terminated
because they didn't *post* it before the termination date. They admitted it
was there but wasn't posted. They refused to re-instates service until we
paid over $800 that we didn't have (including a repayment of the bill that
we had just paid)(Thanks for the loan, Mom).

I am not saying this was 100% the utility companies fault, we never should
have let it get to a termination notice (but we didn't have the money for
the payment at the time), but I feel that they should have worked with us on
this, especially since they did admit their mistake. Also, it was a day that
was below freezing and we had a dog, a cat and a bird along with our young
son (which made no difference to them).

Anyway, they suggested that we call a help agency. OK, I am in a bind, so I
did call all 3 of the agencies they suggested. Not any of them would help
us. Said that we didn't qualify. I try my hardest not to be a prejudice
person, but at times like this, I wonder if I am just the wrong color...
(Sorry if I offended anyone)

So... help agencies aren't always the answer...

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Mike Rapoport

November 26th 04, 09:23 PM

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> Jay mentioned that he hasn't payed card interest since 1985. It
> appears that YOU are the one who supports legalized loan sharking.
> You support it with cash out your pocket.
>

Actually it isn't MBNA that is getting his money...its me! Somebody has to
underwrite my $250 annual rebate and it is people who carry a balance. I
talked to an MBNA manager at AOPA expo and asked him how many cardholders
only used to card to make purchases qualifying for the rebate and not
carrying a balance. He said that it was a "pretty high percentage". The
rate on the card is not just a function of MBNA's cost of funds, it is also
default rate and the cost of paying the cards "perks".

Mike
MU-2

Chuck

November 26th 04, 09:24 PM

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...

<snip>
>
> I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
> real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
> probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
>

Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I need
credit from time to time for necessities...

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Mike Rapoport

November 26th 04, 09:28 PM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Fuspd.85361$V41.50473@attbi_s52...
>>> One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will
>>> screw
>>> the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.
>>
>> has American Express or Diners Club done the same to you?
>> (just curious)
>
> We'll never know -- I threw BOTH of them out right after we opened, after
> they tried to charge us 5% for each transaction. (The other cards --
> Visa, Mastercard & Discover -- charge us "only" 4% for the privilege of
> "working" with them.)
>
> Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
> but Discover? Everyone else charges to use their cards, while Discover
> actually PAYS you to use their card -- yet they are a distant third or
> fourth in the industry.
>

Because there are cards that give more valuable rebates than Discover. I
have an REI card that pays 1% on every purchase starting from the first
dollar.

Mike
MU-2

Chuck

November 26th 04, 09:29 PM

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
<snip>
>
> Keep in mind that this discussion was started by someone with an AOPA
card.
> Presumably he is a pilot and managed to pay $5K for flight training.
>

I remember that... That means he has more money than I do to be able to get
flight training...

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mike regish

November 26th 04, 10:19 PM

Using the wrong excuse to invade Iraq.

mike

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
news:4PIpd.53>
> What screw-up?
>

Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 10:32 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
>> real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
>> probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
>>
>
> Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I need
> credit from time to time for necessities...
>

Is your computer a luxury or a necessity?

Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 10:33 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:%ZNpd.149478$HA.64434@attbi_s01...
>
> Using the wrong excuse to invade Iraq.
>

Many reasons were given for invading Iraq. Which were wrong?

iflyatiger

November 26th 04, 10:39 PM

Chuck

I feel for you man ... I hope this turns around for you soon...

My theory is that peoples complete financial future can be determined to
some extent by their financial start. You can start out the plus side or the
negative side of it . And it can all be changed by the opportunity you were
given in business, maybe by the help your parents gave you when you were
young ( helping you to buy your first car, etc..)
or on the flip side by any bad turn of events that might have happened to
you along the way.

Everyone can tell you how foolish it is for you to use a credit card but
from your description of your situation it is understandable that you do
what you have to do... It is easy to tell other people what they should do
but until they are in the same exact situation as you it doesn't carry as
much weight.

I have been very lucky to have been given a few breaks when I was young that
allowed me to start out on the plus side of the money curve. And I have made
sure that I thanked both of my past bosses for the break / opportunity that
they gave me back then.

Good luck and take care.

Jon

"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Chuck wrote:
> >
> > > "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > >>In a previous article, "Chuck" > said:
> > >>
> > >>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>>
> > >>>>Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a
> > >
> > > sucker.
> > >
> > >>>Or isn't as wealthy or well off financially as you are...
> > >>
> > >>Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you
> know.
> > >>Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money ahead
> of
> > >>time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
> > >>instant gratification stuff.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ya know... I didn't say that paying the balance off was a bad thing. I
> guess
> > > what kinda ticked me off about your post was you said that people were
> > > idiots or suckers for not paying the balance. I merely pointed out
that
> some
> > > people can't do that.
> > >
> > > If I get a new job and have to go to Sears and buy $2,000 worth of
> tools, I
> > > will not be able to pay the balance off in one month. But I gotta have
> the
> > > tools if I want the job.
> >
> > That is exactly why any financial advisor worth their salt recommends
> > that you save an amount equal to 3 - 6 months of expenses as an
> > "emergency" cash fund. Yes, it takes time to do this and a lot of
> > self-control, which most Americans no longer have, but that eliminates
> > the need to ever use a credit card for a situation like this ... or a
> > transmission failure in your car ... or a leak in your roof, etc.
> >
> > Rather than save, most people use credit as their emergency fund. And,
> > as Paul said, that is a sucker play.
> >
>
> And some people like me are financially strapped and do not have the money
> to save after the bills are paid. In fact, I was putting $20 a paycheck
into
> the credit union at work trying to save a little bit and had to stop
making
> that deposit because I needed that $20 per pay period just to make bills.
In
> the last 3 years, our health insurance at work has gone up 135% and
co-pays,
> etc have risen also. I have 3 prescriptions, my wife has 5 and our son has
> one. That's around $150 per month or a little more. Both vehicles are paid
> off, so no car payments. We rent a house and it is actually about $100
below
> the going rate for our area. Electric bills are out the roof. Do I need to
> keep going? In otherwords, by me living paycheck to paycheck, and my
yearly
> raises at 3% if I am lucky that don't even cover cost of living, I am
doing
> everything that I can to stay afloat and will resort to whatever means I
> have to to provide for my wife and son. I wish that you people that make
> $100,000 a year, own airplanes, drive Lexus and Mercedes and live in half
> million dollar houses could understand...
>
> When I got married, my wife got hurt and we ended up getting behind on
bills
> because she couldn't work for almost a year. Everytime we see daylight,
> something happens and we get sucked back into the hole again.
>
> The point that I keep trying to make is that some people are not able to
> save because of their financial situation. It seems that most in this NG
> don't seem to understand that.
>
> I understand what yall are saying about the 3-6 month cushion, and that is
> great if you can afford to do so. I wish that I could. If so, I would have
a
> cushion in the bank.
>
> I do take offense to being called a sucker and an idiot because I have 1
> credit card that I am paying interest on. In my situation, I have no
choice.
>
> If you want to call people who have 15 credit cards with balances and they
> buy big screen TV's, stereos, jewelry, etc on credit, I will agree with
you
> then, but think about the persons situation before you call people
names...
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.801 / Virus Database: 544 - Release Date: 11/24/2004
>
>

Paul Tomblin

November 26th 04, 11:08 PM

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>"mike regish" > wrote in message
>news:%ZNpd.149478$HA.64434@attbi_s01...
>> Using the wrong excuse to invade Iraq.
>Many reasons were given for invading Iraq. Which were wrong?

All of them.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
As for taste buds, bear in mind that the country which gave the world
Irn Bru also developed the Deep Fried Mars Bar. Marmite is the height
of sophistication in comparison. -- Malcolm Ray

Dave Stadt

November 26th 04, 11:10 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Galban" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> <snip>
> >
> > I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
> > real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
> > probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
> >
>
> Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I need
> credit from time to time for necessities...

There are umpteen ways to get credit without paying the outrageous credit
card interest rates.

Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 11:11 PM

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
> said:
>>"mike regish" > wrote in message
>>news:%ZNpd.149478$HA.64434@attbi_s01...
>>> Using the wrong excuse to invade Iraq.
>>Many reasons were given for invading Iraq. Which were wrong?
>
> All of them.
>

You say that because you don't know the reasons given for invading Iraq.

Dave Stadt

November 26th 04, 11:16 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In a previous article, "Chuck" > said:
> > >"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you
> know.
> > >> Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money
ahead
> of
> > >> time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
> > >> instant gratification stuff.
> > >If I get a new job and have to go to Sears and buy $2,000 worth of
tools,
> I
> > >will not be able to pay the balance off in one month. But I gotta have
> the
> > >tools if I want the job.
> >
> > And if you get a bank loan instead of carrying it on your credit card,
the
> > interest rates will be *much* lower and won't go up on a banker's whim.
> >
> > That's what I did when I needed a $5000 computer to set up my computer
> > consulting business right out of college. Ok, initially I was stupid
and
> > used a credit card, but I changed to a bank loan as soon as I could get
> > one.
> >
>
>
> That's fine, but what if my credit is poor and I can't get a bank loan?

Go see a financial advisor that specializes in helping folks in your
condition. No matter what, credit cards are not the answer to your problems.

Judah

November 26th 04, 11:26 PM

Matt Whiting > wrote in
:

> Judah wrote:
>
>> Matt Whiting > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>
>>>Mike V. wrote:
>>
>>
>> <Snip>
>>
>>>... The unknown downside is that this passive
>>>approach likely would have encouraged more 9/11 like attacks and the
>>>cost of them would have been horrendous.
>>>
>>>
>>>Matt
>>
>>
>> Your presumption is that there will not be anymore 9/11 like attacks.
>
> Your presumption is wrong. My presumption is that there would be more
> attacks under an administration with Clinton-like policies than under
> one with Bush-like policies. Since the Twin Towers and Pentagon attacks
> were conceived, planned and partially executed (the flight training)
> under Clinton, I count a good portion of that against him as well. I
> never suggested that we'd be free of attacks. I don't think that is
> likely anytime soon.
>
> Matt

Even if you count the Twin Tower and Pentagon attacks against Clinton, your
missing the point. We have had as many attacks on US soil during the first
4 years of Bush Presidency as we had in the entire 8 years that Clinton was
in office. Why would that lead you to believe that Clinton-like policies
would produce MORE attacks than Bush's?

Chuck

November 26th 04, 11:28 PM

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
> >> real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
> >> probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
> >>
> >
> > Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I need
> > credit from time to time for necessities...
> >
>
> Is your computer a luxury or a necessity?
>
>

I said "very many luxuries". Never said that I didn't have *any*

My PC is a luxury as well as my DSL, although it's only $5 more a month than
dial up, and so is my Dish Network, but I only have the basic package. Those
are my luxuries... What are yours?

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Chuck

November 26th 04, 11:35 PM

"iflyatiger" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck
>
> I feel for you man ... I hope this turns around for you soon...
>
> My theory is that peoples complete financial future can be determined to
> some extent by their financial start. You can start out the plus side or
the
> negative side of it . And it can all be changed by the opportunity you
were
> given in business, maybe by the help your parents gave you when you were
> young ( helping you to buy your first car, etc..)
> or on the flip side by any bad turn of events that might have happened to
> you along the way.
>
> Everyone can tell you how foolish it is for you to use a credit card but
> from your description of your situation it is understandable that you do
> what you have to do... It is easy to tell other people what they should do
> but until they are in the same exact situation as you it doesn't carry as
> much weight.
>
> I have been very lucky to have been given a few breaks when I was young
that
> allowed me to start out on the plus side of the money curve. And I have
made
> sure that I thanked both of my past bosses for the break / opportunity
that
> they gave me back then.
>
> Good luck and take care.
>

Thanks Jon...

I'm glad that you have had the opportunity to become financially stable. I
am confident that someday, I will finally be there also! Just wondering
when!! haha

I have made a few bad choices in the past (waiting until I was almost 40 to
go to college, etc...), but hopefully it is all behind me...

<sarcasm>I know that I can count on the moral support from my fellow
aviation buffs...</sarcasm> :)

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Steven P. McNicoll

November 26th 04, 11:44 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>>
>> "Chuck" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >> I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
>> >> real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
>> >> probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I
>> > need
>> > credit from time to time for necessities...
>> >
>>
>> Is your computer a luxury or a necessity?
>>
>>
>
> I said "very many luxuries". Never said that I didn't have *any*
>
> My PC is a luxury as well as my DSL, although it's only $5 more a month
> than
> dial up, and so is my Dish Network, but I only have the basic package.
> Those
> are my luxuries... What are yours?
>

Mine are not an issue. I'm not complaining about credit card policies while
purchasing luxuries. You are.

Paul Tomblin

November 26th 04, 11:48 PM

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
>> said:
>>>"mike regish" > wrote in message
>>>news:%ZNpd.149478$HA.64434@attbi_s01...
>>>> Using the wrong excuse to invade Iraq.
>>>Many reasons were given for invading Iraq. Which were wrong?
>>
>> All of them.
>>
>
>You say that because you don't know the reasons given for invading Iraq.

I know the reasons that were given to the public and the UN beforehand.
Every single one of them was either wrong or an outright lie. As for the
real reasons, I suspect that if we knew those Bush would have lost the
election by 60 million votes.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I got accused of being humorless last night. I'm considering quoting
Lieutenant Commander Data: "Perhaps the joke was not funny."
-- Alan Rosenthal

Chuck

November 27th 04, 12:11 AM

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> > k.net...
> >>
> >> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >>
> >> >> I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get
a
> >> >> real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
> >> >> probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I
> >> > need
> >> > credit from time to time for necessities...
> >> >
> >>
> >> Is your computer a luxury or a necessity?
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I said "very many luxuries". Never said that I didn't have *any*
> >
> > My PC is a luxury as well as my DSL, although it's only $5 more a month
> > than
> > dial up, and so is my Dish Network, but I only have the basic package.
> > Those
> > are my luxuries... What are yours?
> >
>
> Mine are not an issue. I'm not complaining about credit card policies
while
> purchasing luxuries. You are.
>
>

Oh... OK.... well, are my luxuries excessive? Apparently, you already had
your opinion of me and my luxuries...

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.801 / Virus Database: 544 - Release Date: 11/24/2004

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 01:10 AM

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>> Many reasons were given for invading Iraq. Which were wrong?
>>>>
>>>
>>> All of them.
>>>
>>
>>You say that because you don't know the reasons given for invading Iraq.
>>
>
> I know the reasons that were given to the public and the UN beforehand.
>

That is unlikely.

>
>Every single one of them was either wrong or an outright lie.
>

Explain why.

>
> As for the real reasons, I suspect that if we knew those Bush would have
> lost the election by 60 million votes.
>

The real reasons were those given, but you're not familiar with them.

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 01:14 AM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
. com...
>> >
>> > I said "very many luxuries". Never said that I didn't have *any*
>> >
>> > My PC is a luxury as well as my DSL, although it's only $5 more a month
>> > than
>> > dial up, and so is my Dish Network, but I only have the basic package.
>> > Those
>> > are my luxuries... What are yours?
>> >
>>
>> Mine are not an issue. I'm not complaining about credit card policies
> while
>> purchasing luxuries. You are.
>>
>
> Oh... OK.... well, are my luxuries excessive?
>

In your position, yes.

>
> Apparently, you already had your opinion of me and my luxuries...
>

No, it was formed when you admitted you spent money on luxuries while
bitching about your financial situation.

Mike V.

November 27th 04, 01:17 AM

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>>
>> Apparently, you already had your opinion of me and my luxuries...
>>
>
> No, it was formed when you admitted you spent money on luxuries while
> bitching about your financial situation.

Were you born a prick or did you learn to become one?

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 01:25 AM

"Mike V." > wrote in message
news:7BQpd.102152$5K2.72055@attbi_s03...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >>
>>> Apparently, you already had your opinion of me and my luxuries...
>>>
>>
>> No, it was formed when you admitted you spent money on luxuries while
>> bitching about your financial situation.
>>
>
> Were you born a prick or did you learn to become one?

Neither. Were you born a poor judge of character or did you learn to become
one?

Paul Tomblin

November 27th 04, 01:38 AM

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> I know the reasons that were given to the public and the UN beforehand.
>That is unlikely.
>>Every single one of them was either wrong or an outright lie.
>Explain why.

1. Saddam has weapons of mass destruction - LIE
2. Saddam has ties to Al Queda - LIE
3. Saddam is a threat to America - LIE
4. Saddam was attempting to buy Uranium from Niger - LIE
5. Deposing Saddam will make America safer - LIE
6. The Iraqi people will greet American troops as liberators and there
will be no need for massive numbers of troops to secure the country
afterwards - WRONG

Ok, which reasons do you think I missed?

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
My group's mission statement - 'You want *what* ? By *WHEN* ?'
-- Simon Burr

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 01:48 AM

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> 1. Saddam has weapons of mass destruction - LIE
>

Not a lie. It may have been wrong but it was definitely not a lie. The one
point before the war on which there was agreement was that Saddam had WMD.

>
> 2. Saddam has ties to Al Queda - LIE
>

Not a lie, Saddams ties to Al Qaeda were demonstrated.

>
> 3. Saddam is a threat to America - LIE
>

How so? Saddam with WMD is certainly a threat to America and it was agreed
that he had WMD.

>
> 4. Saddam was attempting to buy Uranium from Niger - LIE
>

Not a lie, Saddam did attempt that.

>
> 5. Deposing Saddam will make America safer - LIE
>

Not a lie, the whole world is safer without Saddam.

>
> 6. The Iraqi people will greet American troops as liberators and there
> will be no need for massive numbers of troops to secure the country
> afterwards - WRONG
>

Many Iraqis did greet American troops as liberators.

>
> Ok, which reasons do you think I missed?
>

I don't know, but it doesn't matter. You were wrong on all counts.

Paul Tomblin

November 27th 04, 02:24 AM

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> 1. Saddam has weapons of mass destruction - LIE
>>
>
>Not a lie. It may have been wrong but it was definitely not a lie. The one
>point before the war on which there was agreement was that Saddam had WMD.

Most of the intelligence source said he didn't. Bush's people decided to
believe the ONE source (who was a defector and then very suspect) who told
them what they wanted to beleive.

>> 2. Saddam has ties to Al Queda - LIE
>>
>
>Not a lie, Saddams ties to Al Qaeda were demonstrated.

Thoroughly disproved by the 9/11 Commission.

>> 3. Saddam is a threat to America - LIE
>>
>
>How so? Saddam with WMD is certainly a threat to America and it was agreed
>that he had WMD.

He didn't have them, and if Bush's people hadn't cooked the books, we all
would have known that.

>> 4. Saddam was attempting to buy Uranium from Niger - LIE
>>
>
>Not a lie, Saddam did attempt that.

Thoroughly disproved. The document cited in his State of the Union
address was known to be a lie before he cited it. It was even supposedly
signed by somebody who was no longer in the government position that he
supposedly was in.

>> 5. Deposing Saddam will make America safer - LIE
>
>Not a lie, the whole world is safer without Saddam.

Bull****. The US presence in Iraq is making thousands of new fanatical
terrorists every week, both in Iraq and outside. People whose anger was
directed towards their oppressor Saddam is now directed towards their
invaders, us. And Bush's calling it a "crusade" was sure to fanaticize a
lot of formerly moderate muslims.

>> 6. The Iraqi people will greet American troops as liberators and there
>> will be no need for massive numbers of troops to secure the country
>> afterwards - WRONG
>>
>
>Many Iraqis did greet American troops as liberators.

Army war planners demanded 200,000 - 300,000 troops to make sure there
wasn't any looting and destruction of infastructure after the "end of
major combat operations". Rumsfeld overruled them and went in without
enough people, and the resulting chaos fueled the insurgency.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"using Outlook to read e-mail is like licking public toilets; using Outlook
with a virus checker is like taking antibiotics and then licking public
toilets (it might work, but it's hardly optimal" -- David Megginson

Ron Rosenfeld

November 27th 04, 02:36 AM

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:52:32 -0500, Matt Whiting >
wrote:

>How is Canada these days? I haven't visited since before 9/11 due to
>the hassles at the border. It was bad enough before.

Hassles? Where?

We live on the border and have not been subject to any hassles.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 02:37 AM

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
> said:
>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> 1. Saddam has weapons of mass destruction - LIE
>>>
>>
>>Not a lie. It may have been wrong but it was definitely not a lie. The
>>one
>>point before the war on which there was agreement was that Saddam had WMD.
>
> Most of the intelligence source said he didn't. Bush's people decided to
> believe the ONE source (who was a defector and then very suspect) who told
> them what they wanted to beleive.
>

Wrong. Every nation with an intelligence gathering capability said he had
WMD. The only nation that disputed it was Iraq.

>
>>> 2. Saddam has ties to Al Queda - LIE
>>>
>>
>>Not a lie, Saddams ties to Al Qaeda were demonstrated.
>
> Thoroughly disproved by the 9/11 Commission.
>

Confirmed by inspectors in Iraq.

>>> 3. Saddam is a threat to America - LIE
>>>
>>
>>How so? Saddam with WMD is certainly a threat to America and it was
>>agreed
>>that he had WMD.
>
> He didn't have them, and if Bush's people hadn't cooked the books, we all
> would have known that.
>

He was believed to have had them and it has not been proven that he didn't
have them. There's no evidence that any books were cooked and no reason to
believe any were.

>>> 4. Saddam was attempting to buy Uranium from Niger - LIE
>>>
>>
>>Not a lie, Saddam did attempt that.
>
> Thoroughly disproved.
>

No, it was proven.

>
> The document cited in his State of the Union
> address was known to be a lie before he cited it. It was even supposedly
> signed by somebody who was no longer in the government position that he
> supposedly was in.
>
>
>>> 5. Deposing Saddam will make America safer - LIE
>>
>>Not a lie, the whole world is safer without Saddam.
>
> Bull****. The US presence in Iraq is making thousands of new fanatical
> terrorists every week, both in Iraq and outside. People whose anger was
> directed towards their oppressor Saddam is now directed towards their
> invaders, us. And Bush's calling it a "crusade" was sure to fanaticize a
> lot of formerly moderate muslims.
>

Nonsense. You're entitled to your own opinions but you're not entitled to
your own facts. The fact is you've bought the propaganda.

Mike V.

November 27th 04, 02:52 AM

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Mike V." > wrote in message
> news:7BQpd.102152$5K2.72055@attbi_s03...
>> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>> >>
>>>> Apparently, you already had your opinion of me and my luxuries...
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, it was formed when you admitted you spent money on luxuries while
>>> bitching about your financial situation.
>>>
>>
>> Were you born a prick or did you learn to become one?
>
> Neither. Were you born a poor judge of character or did you learn to
> become one?

Sorry. My mistake. I thought you were a prick but evidently you are a douche
bag.

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 02:58 AM

"Mike V." > wrote in message
news:KZRpd.150167$HA.59696@attbi_s01...
>>>
>>> Were you born a prick or did you learn to become one?
>>>
>>
>> Neither. Were you born a poor judge of character or did you learn to
>> become one?
>>
>
> Sorry. My mistake. I thought you were a prick but evidently you are a
> douche bag.

I answered your question. Why wont you answer mine?

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 03:48 AM

Chuck wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Chuck wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>In a previous article, "Chuck" > said:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a
>>>
>>>sucker.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Or isn't as wealthy or well off financially as you are...
>>>>
>>>>Nobody is *forcing* you to buy what you can't currently afford, you
>
> know.
>
>>>>Back before credit cards existed, people actually saved up money ahead
>
> of
>
>>>>time for major purchases, instead of all this "buy now and pay later"
>>>>instant gratification stuff.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ya know... I didn't say that paying the balance off was a bad thing. I
>
> guess
>
>>>what kinda ticked me off about your post was you said that people were
>>>idiots or suckers for not paying the balance. I merely pointed out that
>
> some
>
>>>people can't do that.
>>>
>>>If I get a new job and have to go to Sears and buy $2,000 worth of
>
> tools, I
>
>>>will not be able to pay the balance off in one month. But I gotta have
>
> the
>
>>>tools if I want the job.
>>
>>That is exactly why any financial advisor worth their salt recommends
>>that you save an amount equal to 3 - 6 months of expenses as an
>>"emergency" cash fund. Yes, it takes time to do this and a lot of
>>self-control, which most Americans no longer have, but that eliminates
>>the need to ever use a credit card for a situation like this ... or a
>>transmission failure in your car ... or a leak in your roof, etc.
>>
>>Rather than save, most people use credit as their emergency fund. And,
>>as Paul said, that is a sucker play.
>>
>
>
> And some people like me are financially strapped and do not have the money
> to save after the bills are paid. In fact, I was putting $20 a paycheck into
> the credit union at work trying to save a little bit and had to stop making
> that deposit because I needed that $20 per pay period just to make bills. In
> the last 3 years, our health insurance at work has gone up 135% and co-pays,
> etc have risen also. I have 3 prescriptions, my wife has 5 and our son has
> one. That's around $150 per month or a little more. Both vehicles are paid
> off, so no car payments. We rent a house and it is actually about $100 below
> the going rate for our area. Electric bills are out the roof. Do I need to
> keep going? In otherwords, by me living paycheck to paycheck, and my yearly
> raises at 3% if I am lucky that don't even cover cost of living, I am doing
> everything that I can to stay afloat and will resort to whatever means I
> have to to provide for my wife and son. I wish that you people that make
> $100,000 a year, own airplanes, drive Lexus and Mercedes and live in half
> million dollar houses could understand...

I truly feel sorry for people in your situation. However, it doesn't
change the mathematics. If you have no excess income to save, where do
you find the extra money to pay the interest on the credit card?

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 03:50 AM

Chuck wrote:

> "John Galban" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> <snip>
>
>> I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
>>real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
>>probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
>>
>
>
> Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I need
> credit from time to time for necessities...

I still don't see how this works as the interest you pay means that you
can now have even fewer necessities than if you paid cash for them.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 03:55 AM

Judah wrote:

> Matt Whiting > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>Judah wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Matt Whiting > wrote in
:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Mike V. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>><Snip>
>>>
>>>>... The unknown downside is that this passive
>>>>approach likely would have encouraged more 9/11 like attacks and the
>>>>cost of them would have been horrendous.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>Your presumption is that there will not be anymore 9/11 like attacks.
>>
>>Your presumption is wrong. My presumption is that there would be more
>>attacks under an administration with Clinton-like policies than under
>>one with Bush-like policies. Since the Twin Towers and Pentagon attacks
>>were conceived, planned and partially executed (the flight training)
>>under Clinton, I count a good portion of that against him as well. I
>>never suggested that we'd be free of attacks. I don't think that is
>>likely anytime soon.
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> Even if you count the Twin Tower and Pentagon attacks against Clinton, your
> missing the point. We have had as many attacks on US soil during the first
> 4 years of Bush Presidency as we had in the entire 8 years that Clinton was
> in office. Why would that lead you to believe that Clinton-like policies
> would produce MORE attacks than Bush's?

Because there is a lag time for these large attacks due to the planning
involved. It is well documented that the worst attack on Americal soil
was conceived, planned, and partially executed under Clinton. I haven't
tried to count, but what is your data to claim more attacks on US soil
under Bush than under Clinton? I can't think off-hand of any that have
been conceived, planned and executed since Bush was in office.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 03:58 AM

Chuck wrote:

> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>
>>"Chuck" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>> I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
>>>>real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
>>>>probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I need
>>>credit from time to time for necessities...
>>>
>>
>>Is your computer a luxury or a necessity?
>>
>>
>
>
> I said "very many luxuries". Never said that I didn't have *any*
>
> My PC is a luxury as well as my DSL, although it's only $5 more a month than
> dial up, and so is my Dish Network, but I only have the basic package. Those
> are my luxuries... What are yours?

I still use dial-up and have only the 3 channels I can pick up with the
antenna on my TV. However, I do have no debt other than my home
mortgage and I'm making additional principal payments each month that
are equal to the monthly payment so I can get completely out of debt
reasonably quickly. Then I can buy another airplane! :-)

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 03:59 AM

Chuck wrote:

> "iflyatiger" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Chuck
>>
>>I feel for you man ... I hope this turns around for you soon...
>>
>>My theory is that peoples complete financial future can be determined to
>>some extent by their financial start. You can start out the plus side or
>
> the
>
>>negative side of it . And it can all be changed by the opportunity you
>
> were
>
>>given in business, maybe by the help your parents gave you when you were
>>young ( helping you to buy your first car, etc..)
>>or on the flip side by any bad turn of events that might have happened to
>>you along the way.
>>
>>Everyone can tell you how foolish it is for you to use a credit card but
>>from your description of your situation it is understandable that you do
>>what you have to do... It is easy to tell other people what they should do
>>but until they are in the same exact situation as you it doesn't carry as
>>much weight.
>>
>>I have been very lucky to have been given a few breaks when I was young
>
> that
>
>>allowed me to start out on the plus side of the money curve. And I have
>
> made
>
>>sure that I thanked both of my past bosses for the break / opportunity
>
> that
>
>>they gave me back then.
>>
>>Good luck and take care.
>>
>
>
>
> Thanks Jon...
>
> I'm glad that you have had the opportunity to become financially stable. I
> am confident that someday, I will finally be there also! Just wondering
> when!! haha
>
> I have made a few bad choices in the past (waiting until I was almost 40 to
> go to college, etc...), but hopefully it is all behind me...
>
> <sarcasm>I know that I can count on the moral support from my fellow
> aviation buffs...</sarcasm> :)

Actually, the folks here arguing against paying credit card interest are
being VERY supportive of folks in your situation. Calling a spade a
spade may not make you feel good, but the advice is excellent if you
really want to be in control of your finances. If you just want folks
to make you feel good, then that is a different goal...

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 04:04 AM

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>1. Saddam has weapons of mass destruction - LIE
>>
>
>
> Not a lie. It may have been wrong but it was definitely not a lie. The one
> point before the war on which there was agreement was that Saddam had WMD.
>
>
>
>>2. Saddam has ties to Al Queda - LIE
>>
>
>
> Not a lie, Saddams ties to Al Qaeda were demonstrated.
>
>
>
>>3. Saddam is a threat to America - LIE
>>
>
>
> How so? Saddam with WMD is certainly a threat to America and it was agreed
> that he had WMD.
>
>
>
>>4. Saddam was attempting to buy Uranium from Niger - LIE
>>
>
>
> Not a lie, Saddam did attempt that.
>
>
>
>>5. Deposing Saddam will make America safer - LIE
>>
>
>
> Not a lie, the whole world is safer without Saddam.
>
>
>
>>6. The Iraqi people will greet American troops as liberators and there
>>will be no need for massive numbers of troops to secure the country
>>afterwards - WRONG
>>
>
>
> Many Iraqis did greet American troops as liberators.
>
>
>
>>Ok, which reasons do you think I missed?
>>
>
>
> I don't know, but it doesn't matter. You were wrong on all counts.

Unfortunately, when your only view of the world is through the
mainstream media, it is very easy to be wrong on things like this. Very
few reports have been made of the many Iraqis who greeted the US with
open arms, or helped out captured and wounded American troops, but this
has happened all of the time as conveyed by the troops themselves. If
things were as universally bad in Iraq as the liberal media portrays,
you wouldn't have had the military overwhelmingly supporting, and voting
for, Bush.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 04:06 AM

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:52:32 -0500, Matt Whiting >
> wrote:
>
>
>>How is Canada these days? I haven't visited since before 9/11 due to
>>the hassles at the border. It was bad enough before.
>
>
> Hassles? Where?

Niagara Falls.

Matt

ThomasH

November 27th 04, 04:27 AM

John Harlow wrote:
>
> > I have an MBNA credit card and I hardly feel like I'm being screwed.
>
> To feel even less screwed ;) get a rewards card and actually get paid to use
> it.

Getting angry on them does not pay off because they do
what is "usual and customary." As a matter of fact in an
impulse one year go months ago I was also angry with them
and thought of asking AOPA as their member to look for
a new partner. Than however I rather informed myself
about the situation of customer rights versus credit
card companies and I discovered that this is how they
run the business.

Here is the punch line:

1) If your spending seem to be larger than usual, or
if they see that you are on vacations (remote billing
pattern) somehow miraculously the due date is shorter
by two-three days than usual. They have a *probability*
that a few hundred thousand payments will come in a few
days too late and yield them (say) in each instance $25
late fee + their interest. Eeeeasy money! Millions flow
in from suckers.

2) They tell you about the percentage on unpaid balance,
but they do not tell you *percentage of what amount*!!
This is even worse than raising percentage alone!

This latter trick took me by surprise. I am around 50,
and yet I have never ever before had unpaid credit card
bill in my entire life. Thus this trick was not obvious
to me. This is how it works:

As we bought a new in Dec car, we made a down payment
using the "rewards card" from MBNA, which you recommend.
How "clever"! We will collect thousands of points toward
that next Hawaii flight!

But than, as it happens, we got around Christmas a few
spending and a medical bill, and I was short by one
single thousand toward my CC bill.

So what! No problem. The next paycheck was only 7 days
later. I even did not sold any stock to pay this bill.
What for? I thought. $1000 for 12.99% annually is approx.
$129.9 per anno, the one week will cost me $2.50 in
interest.

Wrong wrong wrong!

MBNA takes 12.99% all right, but of the largest amount
which occurs on the card at any given time *during the
entire month,* and even than after the payment, a few
dollars will incurs one more fee for the next month!
Suddenly we paid almost $100 total to MBNA for being
late for mere 7 days by $1000. How "clever," but of them.

However, we suckers have now a few thousands more of
these reward points toward our next Hawaii flight :-)

This enraged me so much that I contacted lawyer through
our legal insurance and I demanded from AOPA to take my
demand under vote to ban MBNA from AOPA as a fraudulent
company.

Wrong wrong wrong. All this what they did is in writing,
give to each of us. And, every credit card company do the
same. Such law suits agaisnt banks were attempted thousands
of times and they failed.

Like someone said: Be clever enough to never ever have
any late payment with these hooligans. If you go for
vacations or travel, pay at least the expected minimum
payment in advance, if not the entire expected bill.
Use online services to pay on time, even remotely.

Be clever, earn some money from your money, instead
of feeding these credit card companies with noticeable
part of your income!

Happy Flying!

Thomas
PAO

ThomasH

November 27th 04, 04:35 AM

ThomasH wrote:
>
[...]
> As we bought a new in Dec car, we made a down payment
> using the "rewards card" from MBNA, which you recommend.
> How "clever"! We will collect thousands of points toward
> that next Hawaii flight!
>

hey, all these typos and grammar... I am still angry with them!!

Martin Hotze

November 27th 04, 11:17 AM

On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 02:24:58 +0000 (UTC), Paul Tomblin wrote:

>>How so? Saddam with WMD is certainly a threat to America and it was agreed
>>that he had WMD.
>
>He didn't have them, and if Bush's people hadn't cooked the books, we all
>would have known that.

Iraq for sure _HAD_ WMD. The USA (and others) _sold_ them to Iraq. Iraq
also used WMD (on their own people). But WMD have not a unlimited life.

And not everybody with a weapon is a threat to the USA. Nowadays, the
fanatic and religious led propaganda is splitting the world.

#m

--
The policy of the American government is to leave its citizens free,
neither restraining them nor aiding them in their pursuits.
Thomas Jefferson

Martin Hotze

November 27th 04, 11:19 AM

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:04:50 -0500, Matt Whiting wrote:

>If
>things were as universally bad in Iraq as the liberal media portrays,
>you wouldn't have had the military overwhelmingly supporting, and voting
>for, Bush.

liberal media? where? in the US?

#m

--
The policy of the American government is to leave its citizens free,
neither restraining them nor aiding them in their pursuits.
Thomas Jefferson

Rich

November 27th 04, 01:31 PM

That's easy!
Don't spend money that you don't have!
If you don't have it now, what makes you think you will have it when you
have to repay the loan?

A loan doesn't GIVE you money... it just time-shifts when you need to
have it.

Rich

Chuck wrote:

> That's fine, but what if my credit is poor and I can't get a bank loan?
>

mike regish

November 27th 04, 01:32 PM

Let's see now, I seem to recall something about WMD.

They don't still let you push tin, do they?

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:%ZNpd.149478$HA.64434@attbi_s01...
>>
>> Using the wrong excuse to invade Iraq.
>>
>
> Many reasons were given for invading Iraq. Which were wrong?
>

Rich

November 27th 04, 01:40 PM

I accept what you say, Chuck, and agree that there ARE people who are in
debt due to circumstances beyond their control (although I don't believe
this is true for MOST people who are in debt).

What I'm saying is that borrowing, especially with a credit card, will
ONLY make matters worse for such a person (family). They MUST find some
way to increase their income or decrease their expenses. It's that
simple, and whining that they don't WANT to reduce their standard of
living (including having internet access) won't change the basic truth
of it.

Rich

Chuck wrote:

>
> And some people like me are financially strapped and do not have the money
> to save after the bills are paid.
>
> When I got married, my wife got hurt and we ended up getting behind on bills
> because she couldn't work for almost a year. Everytime we see daylight,
> something happens and we get sucked back into the hole again.
>
> The point that I keep trying to make is that some people are not able to
> save because of their financial situation. It seems that most in this NG
> don't seem to understand that.
>
>
> I do take offense to being called a sucker and an idiot because I have 1
> credit card that I am paying interest on. In my situation, I have no choice.
>
> If you want to call people who have 15 credit cards with balances and they
> buy big screen TV's, stereos, jewelry, etc on credit, I will agree with you
> then, but think about the persons situation before you call people names...

mike regish

November 27th 04, 01:40 PM

You're the one buying the propoganda, Stevie boy. Hook, line and sinker.

That's understandable since there seem to be very few working brain cells
left in you cranium.

You're not still pushing tin, are you?

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
news:qLRpd.603>>
>
> Nonsense. You're entitled to your own opinions but you're not entitled to
> your own facts. The fact is you've bought the propaganda.
>

mike regish

November 27th 04, 01:40 PM

I'd say he's an excellent judge of character in your case.

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Mike V." > wrote in message
> news:KZRpd.150167$HA.59696@attbi_s01...
>>>>
>>>> Were you born a prick or did you learn to become one?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Neither. Were you born a poor judge of character or did you learn to
>>> become one?
>>>
>>
>> Sorry. My mistake. I thought you were a prick but evidently you are a
>> douche bag.
>
> I answered your question. Why wont you answer mine?
>

mike regish

November 27th 04, 01:44 PM

My folks always taught me to pay cash, which I did for a long time. But then
I found out that in some cases, prices went up practically as fast as I
could save the cash for them, and I didn't have anything to base a credit
rating on, so I got loans and credit cards. Pretty much worked out the same
and I had the things when I wanted them.

mike regish

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I truly feel sorry for people in your situation. However, it doesn't
> change the mathematics. If you have no excess income to save, where do
> you find the extra money to pay the interest on the credit card?
>
> Matt
>

Rich

November 27th 04, 01:49 PM

I don't KNOW if YOUR luxuries are excessive.

I DID read that you have had some financial setbacks, and aren't able to
save even $20 per month. I think I remember that you are using credit
cards to finance your purchases... at high credit card rates.

IF it were ME, I would choose to bypass some of these luxuries in order
not to get further behind... and be able to afford good things to
enhance my children's education and get a good start in life.

Life is about choices, Chuck, and their consequences.

Rich

Chuck wrote:
>
> Oh... OK.... well, are my luxuries excessive? Apparently, you already had
> your opinion of me and my luxuries...
>

Ron Rosenfeld

November 27th 04, 01:54 PM

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 23:06:27 -0500, Matt Whiting >
wrote:

>Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 14:52:32 -0500, Matt Whiting >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>How is Canada these days? I haven't visited since before 9/11 due to
>>>the hassles at the border. It was bad enough before.
>>
>>
>> Hassles? Where?
>
>Niagara Falls.
>
>Matt

Maybe because of more tourists?

We live in Perry, Maine and we cross the border at Calais/St. Stephen at
least weekly, frequently more often. Usually for shopping or other
errands. No problems going either way.

We did have some occasional quick vehicle searches coming in for probably
six months after 9/11, but nothing recently.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 02:00 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:fm%pd.94998$V41.57335@attbi_s52...
>
> Let's see now, I seem to recall something about WMD.
>

So your position is Bush was wrong about WMD but right on the other reasons
given. Is that correct?

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 02:02 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:Jt%pd.471103$D%.274053@attbi_s51...
>
> I'd say he's an excellent judge of character in your case.
>

You're entitled to your opinion. You're wrong, of course, but you are
entitled to your opinion.

mike regish

November 27th 04, 02:13 PM

Didn't think your narrow mind could wrap itself around more than one thing
at a time. Since I never said anything about his other reasons, it is
impossible to make the conclusion you have jumped to without using seriously
flawed reasoning, but that is exactly what I would expect from you, or any
Bushie, for that matter.

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:fm%pd.94998$V41.57335@attbi_s52...
>>
>> Let's see now, I seem to recall something about WMD.
>>
>
> So your position is Bush was wrong about WMD but right on the other
> reasons given. Is that correct?
>

mike regish

November 27th 04, 02:14 PM

That's you opinion, and I have no doubt that mine is NOT wrong. You prove
that consistently.

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:Jt%pd.471103$D%.274053@attbi_s51...
>>
>> I'd say he's an excellent judge of character in your case.
>>
>
> You're entitled to your opinion. You're wrong, of course, but you are
> entitled to your opinion.
>

Chuck

November 27th 04, 02:24 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck wrote:
>
> > "John Galban" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >> I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
> >>real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
> >>probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I need
> > credit from time to time for necessities...
>
> I still don't see how this works as the interest you pay means that you
> can now have even fewer necessities than if you paid cash for them.
>

You just don't get it, do ya?

Of the 3 "luxuries" that I said that I have, only one *might* have been
bought on credit and had to pay any interest. That would be the Dell PC. For
your information, I did charge that PC, but paid it off with my tax refund 2
months later. I paid 1 or 2 months of interest. Big deal. Dish Network and
SBC don't charge any interest that I am aware of.

If you will read, I have ONE credit card (Sears, for school clothes, tools,
etc) that I am paying interest on. For someone in my financial situation, I
don't feel that is all that bad.

Would you stop trying to pry into my personal situation please.

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Chuck

November 27th 04, 02:28 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck wrote:
>
> > "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> > k.net...
> >
> >>"Chuck" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>>> I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
> >>>>real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
> >>>>probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I
need
> >>>credit from time to time for necessities...
> >>>
> >>
> >>Is your computer a luxury or a necessity?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > I said "very many luxuries". Never said that I didn't have *any*
> >
> > My PC is a luxury as well as my DSL, although it's only $5 more a month
than
> > dial up, and so is my Dish Network, but I only have the basic package.
Those
> > are my luxuries... What are yours?
>
> I still use dial-up and have only the 3 channels I can pick up with the
> antenna on my TV. However, I do have no debt other than my home
> mortgage and I'm making additional principal payments each month that
> are equal to the monthly payment so I can get completely out of debt
> reasonably quickly. Then I can buy another airplane! :-)
>

I am so glad that you can afford to do so.

Again, DSL cost me less than $5 per month more than dial up. To me it is
work the extra cost because of 1) speed and 2) doesn't tie up the phone
line.

Dish network, my wife watches a couple of kids and that was the main reason
that we got it. When was the last time you had 4 kids that don't belong to
you all day, everyday at your house with 3 channels? But I admit, we enjoy
the dish too.

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Chuck

November 27th 04, 02:32 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck wrote:
>
> > "iflyatiger" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Chuck
> >>
> >>I feel for you man ... I hope this turns around for you soon...
> >>
> >>My theory is that peoples complete financial future can be determined to
> >>some extent by their financial start. You can start out the plus side or
> >
> > the
> >
> >>negative side of it . And it can all be changed by the opportunity you
> >
> > were
> >
> >>given in business, maybe by the help your parents gave you when you were
> >>young ( helping you to buy your first car, etc..)
> >>or on the flip side by any bad turn of events that might have happened
to
> >>you along the way.
> >>
> >>Everyone can tell you how foolish it is for you to use a credit card but
> >>from your description of your situation it is understandable that you do
> >>what you have to do... It is easy to tell other people what they should
do
> >>but until they are in the same exact situation as you it doesn't carry
as
> >>much weight.
> >>
> >>I have been very lucky to have been given a few breaks when I was young
> >
> > that
> >
> >>allowed me to start out on the plus side of the money curve. And I have
> >
> > made
> >
> >>sure that I thanked both of my past bosses for the break / opportunity
> >
> > that
> >
> >>they gave me back then.
> >>
> >>Good luck and take care.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Jon...
> >
> > I'm glad that you have had the opportunity to become financially stable.
I
> > am confident that someday, I will finally be there also! Just wondering
> > when!! haha
> >
> > I have made a few bad choices in the past (waiting until I was almost 40
to
> > go to college, etc...), but hopefully it is all behind me...
> >
> > <sarcasm>I know that I can count on the moral support from my fellow
> > aviation buffs...</sarcasm> :)
>
> Actually, the folks here arguing against paying credit card interest are
> being VERY supportive of folks in your situation. Calling a spade a
> spade may not make you feel good, but the advice is excellent if you
> really want to be in control of your finances. If you just want folks
> to make you feel good, then that is a different goal...
>

No, actually what you people need to be doing is saying "hey, when you are
able to get back on your feet again, stay away from the credit cards and try
your hardest not to use them now unless it's a dire emergency"

If something like that was said, I would say thanks for the advice. But
instead, all that I have heard is that I am a sucker and an idiot for having
a balance on ONE credit card.

Name calling isn't being supportive...

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mike regish

November 27th 04, 02:38 PM

He doesn't get a lot of things, but you'll never convince him of any of
them. He has all the answers and they are always right.

There is a saying for people like him.
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig."

mike regish

"Chuck" > wrote in message
. com...

>> I still don't see how this works as the interest you pay means that you
>> can now have even fewer necessities than if you paid cash for them.
>>
>
>
> You just don't get it, do ya?
>
> Of the 3 "luxuries" that I said that I have, only one *might* have been
> bought on credit and had to pay any interest. That would be the Dell PC.
> For
> your information, I did charge that PC, but paid it off with my tax refund
> 2
> months later. I paid 1 or 2 months of interest. Big deal. Dish Network and
> SBC don't charge any interest that I am aware of.
>
> If you will read, I have ONE credit card (Sears, for school clothes,
> tools,
> etc) that I am paying interest on. For someone in my financial situation,
> I
> don't feel that is all that bad.
>
> Would you stop trying to pry into my personal situation please.
>
>
> ---
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>
>

Chuck

November 27th 04, 02:38 PM

"Rich" > wrote in message
...
> That's easy!
> Don't spend money that you don't have!
> If you don't have it now, what makes you think you will have it when you
> have to repay the loan?
>
> A loan doesn't GIVE you money... it just time-shifts when you need to
> have it.
>
> Rich
>
> Chuck wrote:
>
> > That's fine, but what if my credit is poor and I can't get a bank loan?
> >
>

Well, what if my transmission falls out of my truck or the engine blows?
Both could be a reality with my truck since it has almost 200,000 miles on
it. In this case, I would have to "spend money that I don't have". We do not
have public transportation here to speak of and I work night shift anyways.
Don't think that I could afford $40 for a cab every day...

What about when the A/C goes out in the house? (This is one of the times
that I am glad that I rent)

Refrigerator goes out?

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Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 02:42 PM

mike regish wrote:

> My folks always taught me to pay cash, which I did for a long time. But then
> I found out that in some cases, prices went up practically as fast as I
> could save the cash for them, and I didn't have anything to base a credit
> rating on, so I got loans and credit cards. Pretty much worked out the same
> and I had the things when I wanted them.

Yes, in the short-term, no, in the long-term. Where does the money you
pay to the bank come from? Does it just magically appear?

No, it is money that you no longer have to pay for the fun things in
life or even the necessities as the case may be. Yes, to save cash for
large purchases does delay the initial purchase or two, but once you get
ahead of the cycle you are ahead forever.

It really isn't hard to understand. If you pay $50,000 in interest in
your lifetime, that is a couple of cars that you weren't able to buy.

Matt

Mike V.

November 27th 04, 02:45 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Hassles? Where?
>
> Niagara Falls.

Matt, you should limit yourself to one or two meaningful posts every day.
Most of what you wtite here is garbage.

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 02:47 PM

Chuck wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Chuck wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>> I've almost never kept a balance on a credit card. If I can't get a
>>>>real loan (i.e. bank loan with reasonable terms), then that means I
>>>>probably can't afford whatever it is I want to buy.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Must be nice... I don't have the option of very many luxuries, so I need
>>>credit from time to time for necessities...
>>
>>I still don't see how this works as the interest you pay means that you
>>can now have even fewer necessities than if you paid cash for them.
>>
>
>
>
> You just don't get it, do ya?

I get it very well. I haven't had any consumer debt for nearly 20
years. I paid off my first house when I was 35 years old. I get
financial management rather well, thank you.

> Of the 3 "luxuries" that I said that I have, only one *might* have been
> bought on credit and had to pay any interest. That would be the Dell PC. For
> your information, I did charge that PC, but paid it off with my tax refund 2
> months later. I paid 1 or 2 months of interest. Big deal. Dish Network and
> SBC don't charge any interest that I am aware of.

I never said a thing about your luxuries, I was simply talking about the
downside of paying interest on consumer debt. Others commented about
your luxuries, but I didn't. Check the thread.

> If you will read, I have ONE credit card (Sears, for school clothes, tools,
> etc) that I am paying interest on. For someone in my financial situation, I
> don't feel that is all that bad.

It isn't bad if you'd rather pay interest than buy necessities or
luxuries with that money. Your call.

> Would you stop trying to pry into my personal situation please.

I've never asked you a single thing about your personal situation.
You've spilled your guts here quite freely.

Matt

Chuck

November 27th 04, 02:51 PM

"Rich" > wrote in message
...
> I accept what you say, Chuck, and agree that there ARE people who are in
> debt due to circumstances beyond their control (although I don't believe
> this is true for MOST people who are in debt).
>
> What I'm saying is that borrowing, especially with a credit card, will
> ONLY make matters worse for such a person (family). They MUST find some
> way to increase their income or decrease their expenses. It's that
> simple, and whining that they don't WANT to reduce their standard of
> living (including having internet access) won't change the basic truth
> of it.
>
> Rich
>
> Chuck wrote:
>
> >
> > And some people like me are financially strapped and do not have the
money
> > to save after the bills are paid.
> >
> > When I got married, my wife got hurt and we ended up getting behind on
bills
> > because she couldn't work for almost a year. Everytime we see daylight,
> > something happens and we get sucked back into the hole again.
> >
> > The point that I keep trying to make is that some people are not able to
> > save because of their financial situation. It seems that most in this NG
> > don't seem to understand that.
> >
> >
> > I do take offense to being called a sucker and an idiot because I have 1
> > credit card that I am paying interest on. In my situation, I have no
choice.
> >
> > If you want to call people who have 15 credit cards with balances and
they
> > buy big screen TV's, stereos, jewelry, etc on credit, I will agree with
you
> > then, but think about the persons situation before you call people
names...
>

Rich, I agree with you 100% (as I have *most* people in the thread).

You said what I have been trying to get across the whole time. There are
people in trouble who can't help it. They got caught in an unfortunate
situation and are trying to get out.

I agree and would say that most people in financial trouble brought it on
themselves.

I am not wanting anyone here to feel sorry for me. I am not looking for
sympathy (luckily!), I am just trying to point out that everyone's situation
is different and please don't judge me because I have ONE credit card with
interest.

We have reduced our standard of living. We see maybe one to two movies per
year. Actually, we saw Polar Express (highly recommended, even for adults)
last night with our 10 year old son, but we had a $20 gift certificate that
we used. We don't go to Blockbuster. The 27 inch TV that I have had almost
20 years went out and we have been watching a 20 inch TV for awhile now. We
rarely go out to eat. We haven't been to a club in years.

Our entertainment consist of watching TV, going to visit family (within 20
miles), going to DFW airport and sitting at the park watching planes take
off and land, going to the American Airlines Museum (free), Pates Museum of
transportation (free), etc... We rarely go places that cost money...

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Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 02:51 PM

Chuck wrote:

> "Rich" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>That's easy!
>>Don't spend money that you don't have!
>>If you don't have it now, what makes you think you will have it when you
>>have to repay the loan?
>>
>>A loan doesn't GIVE you money... it just time-shifts when you need to
>>have it.
>>
>>Rich
>>
>>Chuck wrote:
>>
>>
>>>That's fine, but what if my credit is poor and I can't get a bank loan?
>>>
>>
>
>
> Well, what if my transmission falls out of my truck or the engine blows?
> Both could be a reality with my truck since it has almost 200,000 miles on
> it. In this case, I would have to "spend money that I don't have". We do not
> have public transportation here to speak of and I work night shift anyways.
> Don't think that I could afford $40 for a cab every day...
>
> What about when the A/C goes out in the house? (This is one of the times
> that I am glad that I rent)
>
> Refrigerator goes out?

That is the purpose of saving up a small cash emergency fund. You are
right, you can't predict when things like this will happen, but you can
predict that they will happen so you have to plan and prepare in advance
for them.

Matt

Mike V.

November 27th 04, 02:52 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
m...

> Well, what if my transmission falls out of my truck or the engine blows?
> Both could be a reality with my truck since it has almost 200,000 miles on
> it. In this case, I would have to "spend money that I don't have". We do
> not
> have public transportation here to speak of and I work night shift
> anyways.
> Don't think that I could afford $40 for a cab every day...
>
> What about when the A/C goes out in the house? (This is one of the times
> that I am glad that I rent)

Chuck, you are missing the point. Matt and the boys live in a world where
they are superior beings. These things never happen to them and they've
never met anyone who it has happened to either. They're the dip****s that
are supporting the rapid transition of the US from a government of the
people to a government run by corporations where Joe Public gets screwed
over at every turn.

You see, for some wacked out reason they seem to think that an entity that
exists on paper has the right to do whatever it's lobbying money can buy on
K-Street. And when your job is lost and the bills stack up, well then ****
you - you are a debt carring loser and your kids can eat cardboard boxes for
all they care. Pay up, sucker!

Welcome to the new America. I hope you like it.

Chuck

November 27th 04, 03:00 PM

"Rich" > wrote in message
...
> I don't KNOW if YOUR luxuries are excessive.
>
> I DID read that you have had some financial setbacks, and aren't able to
> save even $20 per month. I think I remember that you are using credit
> cards to finance your purchases... at high credit card rates.
>
> IF it were ME, I would choose to bypass some of these luxuries in order
> not to get further behind... and be able to afford good things to
> enhance my children's education and get a good start in life.
>
> Life is about choices, Chuck, and their consequences.
>
> Rich
>
>
> Chuck wrote:
> >
> > Oh... OK.... well, are my luxuries excessive? Apparently, you already
had
> > your opinion of me and my luxuries...
> >
>
>

Rich, maybe you need to re-read the thread...

I have said numerous times that I have ONE credit card that carries a
balance. It is Sears. We use it for necessities like school clothes, etc. We
don't go buy wide screen TV's on it. In fact we are currently watching a 20
inch TV right now, so it would be very easy to run to Sears and charge a new
TV, but we have chosen to wait until our tax refund comes in so we can pay
cash for a new TV.

In otherwords, NO I am not using credit cards for my (our) purchases. Even
Christmas is COMPLETELY paid in CASH! How many of you can say that?

In the past we have had other credit cards, but they are all PAID OFF with
ZERO balances (have been for several years) and we have closed the accounts
on them.

In another reply, I have defended my 3 luxuries, so I wont do it again here,
but I have reason for those 3.

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Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 03:00 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:AY%pd.572727$mD.93066@attbi_s02...
>
> Didn't think your narrow mind could wrap itself around more than one thing
> at a time. Since I never said anything about his other reasons, it is
> impossible to make the conclusion you have jumped to without using
> seriously flawed reasoning, but that is exactly what I would expect from
> you, or any Bushie, for that matter.
>

Since the question was which of the reasons given for invading Iraq were
wrong, and you mentioned only WMD, it is logical to conclude you believe the
other reasons were right.

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 03:02 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:CZ%pd.572735$mD.180317@attbi_s02...
>
> That's you opinion, and I have no doubt that mine is NOT wrong. You prove
> that consistently.
>

Actually, mine is not an opinion.

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 03:06 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
. com...
>>
>> I still don't see how this works as the interest you pay means that you
>> can now have even fewer necessities than if you paid cash for them.
>>
>
> You just don't get it, do ya?
>
> Of the 3 "luxuries" that I said that I have, only one *might* have been
> bought on credit and had to pay any interest. That would be the Dell PC.
> For
> your information, I did charge that PC, but paid it off with my tax refund
> 2
> months later. I paid 1 or 2 months of interest. Big deal. Dish Network and
> SBC don't charge any interest that I am aware of.
>

Actually, you're the one that does not get it. It does not matter what
items you pay cash for and which you charge, it's just that your total
purchases are greater than your ability to pay for them.

>
> If you will read, I have ONE credit card (Sears, for school clothes,
> tools,
> etc) that I am paying interest on. For someone in my financial situation,
> I
> don't feel that is all that bad.
>

But buying luxuries you can't afford is.

>
> Would you stop trying to pry into my personal situation please.
>

Nobody's prying, you're posting your personal situation on the internet.

Mike V.

November 27th 04, 03:17 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
om...
>
> In another reply, I have defended my 3 luxuries, so I wont do it again
> here,
> but I have reason for those 3.

Chuck, do not give these people a platform by letting them question your
actions. Many folks who never had money problems and cannot understand what
you are talking about either had the backing or were born with a silver
spoon in their mouth. I meet these assholes all the time. Ivy league
schools, mommy and daddy have money, inheritance, parents had money to send
them to good and connected schools, etc. A small boost goes a long way when
starting out in life - it makes all the difference and none of the people
earned it themselves. Many handle the privelege admirably, but many also
know in their hearts they never really achieved anything on their own steam,
and they like to make themselved feel better by looking down on folks like
you.

Chuck

November 27th 04, 03:21 PM

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> . com...

<snip>
>
> >
> > If you will read, I have ONE credit card (Sears, for school clothes,
> > tools,
> > etc) that I am paying interest on. For someone in my financial
situation,
> > I
> > don't feel that is all that bad.
> >
>
> But buying luxuries you can't afford is.
>
>

Are buying school clothes an luxury? Are buying tools for work a luxury?

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Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 03:23 PM

Mike V. wrote:

> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> m...
>
>
>>Well, what if my transmission falls out of my truck or the engine blows?
>>Both could be a reality with my truck since it has almost 200,000 miles on
>>it. In this case, I would have to "spend money that I don't have". We do
>>not
>>have public transportation here to speak of and I work night shift
>>anyways.
>>Don't think that I could afford $40 for a cab every day...
>>
>>What about when the A/C goes out in the house? (This is one of the times
>>that I am glad that I rent)
>
>
> Chuck, you are missing the point. Matt and the boys live in a world where
> they are superior beings. These things never happen to them and they've
> never met anyone who it has happened to either. They're the dip****s that
> are supporting the rapid transition of the US from a government of the
> people to a government run by corporations where Joe Public gets screwed
> over at every turn.

You are so far off base that it is truly entertaining. We've never said
that bad things don't happen to people. We've simply said that you need
to prepare in advance for the "normal" bad things that happen, such as
transmission failures, leaking roofs, etc. Obviously, you can't prepare
for the truly catastrophic such as cancer, etc., but you also can't fix
those with a credit card. The point is that the things that credit
cards are most often used for can be handled with advance planning and
preparation. You refuse to believe that, and that is your choice.

> You see, for some wacked out reason they seem to think that an entity that
> exists on paper has the right to do whatever it's lobbying money can buy on
> K-Street. And when your job is lost and the bills stack up, well then ****
> you - you are a debt carring loser and your kids can eat cardboard boxes for
> all they care. Pay up, sucker!

Again, comically off base. We've simply said that when you sign an
agreement, you have agreed to the terms of that agreement! No value
statement was made at all and nobody said that this was right or wrong,
just that it is what it is. Nobody forced you to sign the agreement so
why do you insist on blaming a faceless corporation for your mistake?

> Welcome to the new America. I hope you like it.

It is still the best country on earth warts and all. I don't like many
things about it, but for the most part I like it pretty well. There are
several hundred other countries available for those who don't like this one.

Matt

Chuck

November 27th 04, 03:32 PM

"Mike V." > wrote in message
news:hU0qd.105841$5K2.41539@attbi_s03...
>
> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > In another reply, I have defended my 3 luxuries, so I wont do it again
> > here,
> > but I have reason for those 3.
>
> Chuck, do not give these people a platform by letting them question your
> actions. Many folks who never had money problems and cannot understand
what
> you are talking about either had the backing or were born with a silver
> spoon in their mouth. I meet these assholes all the time. Ivy league
> schools, mommy and daddy have money, inheritance, parents had money to
send
> them to good and connected schools, etc. A small boost goes a long way
when
> starting out in life - it makes all the difference and none of the people
> earned it themselves. Many handle the privelege admirably, but many also
> know in their hearts they never really achieved anything on their own
steam,
> and they like to make themselved feel better by looking down on folks like
> you.
>
>

Yea.. I think that I am done with this thread...

I have tried my hardest to explain to people that I understand what they are
saying and that I agree with them, but unfortunately, they can't understand
that some people are not able to have cash laying around and in an EMERGENCY
have no other choice but to use a credit card.

But you are right, I think there are 2 or maybe 3 people here than
understand what I am trying to say and then you have the jerks that have
never experienced money problems and treat anyone that doesn't drive a
Mercedes and belong to the country club, keep their Barron at their house at
the airpark and go to the Playboy Mansion for parties like crap. These guys
just don't get it...

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Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 03:38 PM

Mike V. wrote:

> "Chuck" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>In another reply, I have defended my 3 luxuries, so I wont do it again
>>here,
>>but I have reason for those 3.
>
>
> Chuck, do not give these people a platform by letting them question your
> actions. Many folks who never had money problems and cannot understand what
> you are talking about either had the backing or were born with a silver
> spoon in their mouth. I meet these assholes all the time. Ivy league
> schools, mommy and daddy have money, inheritance, parents had money to send
> them to good and connected schools, etc. A small boost goes a long way when
> starting out in life - it makes all the difference and none of the people
> earned it themselves. Many handle the privelege admirably, but many also
> know in their hearts they never really achieved anything on their own steam,
> and they like to make themselved feel better by looking down on folks like
> you.

I don't know about the others here, but you couldn't be more wrong in my
case. I grew up in mobile homes and worked after high school for two
years to save enough money for college. I got through by using my
savings, working the maximum hours per week in work-study (20 hours on
top of an engineering curriculum)and working every break (thanksgiving,
Christmas, spring and summer). I got no support from my parents as they
couldn't afford it, yet they made just enough so that I got basically
zilch in grants ($300 a year as I recall).

Sure, some folks are both into wealth, but you'll also find that most of
them can't manage money to save their lives. The folks I've met who
really know how to manage money are the one's who grew up with none and
have had to learn to make do with what they have. I'm very fortunate
that I now make a decent living, but I've always spent less than I
earned whether I earned $10,000 a year or $100,000. And every car I've
ever bought was paid for with cash saved in advance. Sure, I had to
wait a few years after college before buying a new car, unlike my
classmates who went out and got big loans for BMWs, but I'm not far
better off that almost all of them.

As for looking down on folks, I didn't make the original comment about
idiots and suckers, however, the essence of the message is correct even
if the word choice offends those with thin skin. It isn't a question of
looking down on anyone, it is simply stating that fact that money spent
on finance charges and interest is money no longer available for other
things. That isn't a value judgement, it is a simple fact. I
personally have no problem at all if people want to enrich the same
corporations that they denouce as ruining America. That is their
decision. Personally, I think that is nuts, but to each his own.

Matt

Mike V.

November 27th 04, 03:40 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>> What about when the A/C goes out in the house? (This is one of the times
>> that I am glad that I rent)
>>
>> Refrigerator goes out?
>
> That is the purpose of saving up a small cash emergency fund. You are
> right, you can't predict when things like this will happen, but you can
> predict that they will happen so you have to plan and prepare in advance
> for them.

Let me try to explain this to you even though you are clearly too damn
stupid to understand: some people do not have enough money to get by, let
alone some extra cash to set aside for emergencies.

GET IT??

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 03:47 PM

Chuck wrote:

> "Mike V." > wrote in message
> news:hU0qd.105841$5K2.41539@attbi_s03...
>
>>"Chuck" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>>>In another reply, I have defended my 3 luxuries, so I wont do it again
>>>here,
>>>but I have reason for those 3.
>>
>>Chuck, do not give these people a platform by letting them question your
>>actions. Many folks who never had money problems and cannot understand
>
> what
>
>>you are talking about either had the backing or were born with a silver
>>spoon in their mouth. I meet these assholes all the time. Ivy league
>>schools, mommy and daddy have money, inheritance, parents had money to
>
> send
>
>>them to good and connected schools, etc. A small boost goes a long way
>
> when
>
>>starting out in life - it makes all the difference and none of the people
>>earned it themselves. Many handle the privelege admirably, but many also
>>know in their hearts they never really achieved anything on their own
>
> steam,
>
>>and they like to make themselved feel better by looking down on folks like
>>you.
>>
>>
>
>
> Yea.. I think that I am done with this thread...
>
> I have tried my hardest to explain to people that I understand what they are
> saying and that I agree with them, but unfortunately, they can't understand
> that some people are not able to have cash laying around and in an EMERGENCY
> have no other choice but to use a credit card.

I understand that very well. That is why I suggest that people start
saving even a small amount each month towards building an emergency cash
fund.

> But you are right, I think there are 2 or maybe 3 people here than
> understand what I am trying to say and then you have the jerks that have
> never experienced money problems and treat anyone that doesn't drive a
> Mercedes and belong to the country club, keep their Barron at their house at
> the airpark and go to the Playboy Mansion for parties like crap. These guys
> just don't get it...

You are talking about that which you have no knowledge. I don't know if
you consider me in the two or three, but I'm guessing you probably do.
My daily driver is a 96 minivan with 160K miles. I have a 10 year-old
pickup I use for plowing my driveway, hauling firewood, etc. I did get
a 2003 minivan for my wife to drive as the 96 was getting to the point I
didn't trust it with her and the kids. However, I bought a stripped
down Chrysler program vehicle and paid only $13K for it. I've never
owned a luxury car and probably never will as I much prefer my pickup.
Likewise for the country club. I don't own an airplane because I built
a new house four years ago and couldn't afford that and an airplane
without going way into debt. So I sold the airplane to partially
finance the house. I didn't buy my airplane until my first house was
paid for. I hope to buy an airplane again, but won't until my current
house is paid for. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Matt

Mike V.

November 27th 04, 03:51 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>> Welcome to the new America. I hope you like it.
>
> It is still the best country on earth warts and all. I don't like many
> things about it, but for the most part I like it pretty well. There are
> several hundred other countries available for those who don't like this
> one.

Basically. Go screw youself. You and your big spending corporate
protectionist conservative friends do not own the country. If I do not like
what I see I get on my soap box and start speaking my mind. Which is exactly
what I am doing.

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 04:38 PM

Mike V. wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>What about when the A/C goes out in the house? (This is one of the times
>>>that I am glad that I rent)
>>>
>>>Refrigerator goes out?
>>
>>That is the purpose of saving up a small cash emergency fund. You are
>>right, you can't predict when things like this will happen, but you can
>>predict that they will happen so you have to plan and prepare in advance
>>for them.
>
>
> Let me try to explain this to you even though you are clearly too damn
> stupid to understand: some people do not have enough money to get by, let
> alone some extra cash to set aside for emergencies.

And how does spending even more money on interest and finance charges
make this situation any better? If they don't have the money to set
aside in advance, where do they get the money to pay the credit card
bill after the fact? Yes, I really don't get it. Actually I do, but it
embarrasses people when you point it out.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 04:39 PM

Mike V. wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>Welcome to the new America. I hope you like it.
>>
>>It is still the best country on earth warts and all. I don't like many
>>things about it, but for the most part I like it pretty well. There are
>>several hundred other countries available for those who don't like this
>>one.
>
>
> Basically. Go screw youself. You and your big spending corporate
> protectionist conservative friends do not own the country. If I do not like
> what I see I get on my soap box and start speaking my mind. Which is exactly
> what I am doing.

I never said I owned it. You are really a bitter person. This isn't
good for you.

Matt

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 05:14 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> Are buying school clothes an luxury?
>

No. What's your point?

>
> Are buying tools for work a luxury?
>

No. You've already said you spend money on luxuries you clearly cannot
afford.

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 05:16 PM

"Mike V." > wrote in message
news:od1qd.675986$8_6.344569@attbi_s04...
>
> Let me try to explain this to you even though you are clearly too damn
> stupid to understand: some people do not have enough money to get by, let
> alone some extra cash to set aside for emergencies.
>
> GET IT??

I get it. And there are people who are in poor financial situations because
they've made poor decisions. Do you get that?

Casey Wilson

November 27th 04, 05:22 PM

"Chuck" > wrote in message
m...
>

> Well, what if my transmission falls out of my truck or the engine blows?
> Both could be a reality with my truck since it has almost 200,000 miles on
> it. In this case, I would have to "spend money that I don't have". We do
> not
> have public transportation here to speak of and I work night shift
> anyways.
> Don't think that I could afford $40 for a cab every day...
>
> What about when the A/C goes out in the house? (This is one of the times
> that I am glad that I rent)
>
> Refrigerator goes out?
>
Chuck, someday, hopefully, you'll get in the position of a set aside
or reserve for those contingencies. Just as I suspect a number of folks here
have. I'll bet more than one lurker is applying all this verbosity to
themselves. How does the saying go? "....you are not alone...."
Maybe you could start by putting away $20 a month, even if you have
to cut back on something to do it. Take offense if you want, but unless you
have the fortitude to leave that tiny fund alone, go get someone to help.
Help in this case by you setting up an account that requires two signatures
for withdrawal. If you go to church, ask your pastor, for example. In any
case it has to be someone you can't bully into caving in. Relatives and pals
are poor choices. The agreement you set with them is that the money is for
legitimate emergencies, only. If you lie to beat the setup, you shouldn't
cry about it. $20 doesn't sound like much, but you have to start somewhere.
You have the misfortune at this point of opening yourself the the
world with all the stuff you've presented. I think the thread was opened by
somebody else. You've just become a focus.

Judah

November 27th 04, 05:43 PM

Matt Whiting > wrote in
:

>
> Because there is a lag time for these large attacks due to the planning
> involved. It is well documented that the worst attack on Americal soil
> was conceived, planned, and partially executed under Clinton. I
> haven't tried to count, but what is your data to claim more attacks on
> US soil under Bush than under Clinton? I can't think off-hand of any
> that have been conceived, planned and executed since Bush was in
> office.
>
> Matt

1) It was planned under Clinton, but executed under Bush. What part of
9/11, exactly, was executed under Clinton? Where is your data?

2) http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884893.html provides a list of Al-Qaeda
sponsored terrorist attacks since 1993. You are correct, though. In my
second post I misspoke - these attacks were not on American soil, but they
were on American targets.

I don't think either of us will be swayed in this dispute...

You seem to believe that the lack of another 9/11 type attack is due
largely to the merit of Bush's policies, and do not consider the lag time
for such a large attack in the equation, even while you use the same lag
time to blame Clinton for the attacks in the first place. You have been
fooled into feeling safe, and want to thank Bush for that, even though in
reality, you are not much more or less safe than you were in 1993 or 2001.
You go on with your life, happy to be protected by your wonderful, all-
powerful Government.

I, on the other hand, believe that Enemies of Freedom and of Western
Civilization will continue to attack Americans and their Allies in whatever
way they can, as indicated by the rise in terrorist attacks on American and
Allied targets. I believe a better way to stop this than unilaterally
taking down an Arab country or two is to get more of our powerful Allies to
work with us against the problem. The Bush approach alienates many allies
so that they sit idly by as we increase our size on the dartboard. I don't
feel safer than I did in 2001 or 1993. But then, I am also not so afraid of
another attack that I stop shopping at WalMart. I go on with my life, being
a bit more suspicious and attentive, but mostly just happy to still be
free, despite the best attempts of my all-powerful Government.

Ron Natalie

November 27th 04, 05:44 PM

RS wrote:
> If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on your
> last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA cardholders, even if
> you pay on time.

MBNA is a bunch of crooks (this is typical of just about every AOPA related
service). They have had a long history of misapply credits and other billing
screwups on my AOPA and other accounts. It took me a long time to get one
of my other accounts (Margy's AMEX I think) straightened out due to erroneous
information reported by MJBNA).

Don't even get me started about their aircraft loan problem.

At least they now let you request your AOPA rebate on line.

mike regish

November 27th 04, 06:04 PM

That was the first one. All the others were given when each one in turn was
proven false. He ended up using the lamest after they all
failed-humanitarian. Not a lame reason in itself, but lame in that it was
the only possible one left to him and it applies so much more in other parts
of the world that just don't happen to be oil rich.

Do they still let you push tin?

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:AY%pd.572727$mD.93066@attbi_s02...
>>
>> Didn't think your narrow mind could wrap itself around more than one
>> thing at a time. Since I never said anything about his other reasons, it
>> is impossible to make the conclusion you have jumped to without using
>> seriously flawed reasoning, but that is exactly what I would expect from
>> you, or any Bushie, for that matter.
>>
>
> Since the question was which of the reasons given for invading Iraq were
> wrong, and you mentioned only WMD, it is logical to conclude you believe
> the other reasons were right.
>

mike regish

November 27th 04, 06:04 PM

Ahh. That's right. In your pea brain, it's a fact.

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:CZ%pd.572735$mD.180317@attbi_s02...
>>
>> That's you opinion, and I have no doubt that mine is NOT wrong. You prove
>> that consistently.
>>
>
> Actually, mine is not an opinion.
>

mike regish

November 27th 04, 06:12 PM

Almost 5 years ago I bought (with the help of my wife) a 1953 Piper
Tripacer. I still remember the initial reaction in the Piper mailing list.
It was typewritten laughter and comments such "THAT'S not a plane."

It's all I can afford, and barely at that. Often when I have had maintenance
questions, I was chided for taking the cheaper option, even though it did
not compromise safety in the least. I've found that there are many,
especially in the aviation world, who just do not understand living on a
shoestring.

The only real idiots when it comes to credit are the ones who apply for
every card offer they get and max them all out while paying minimum
payments, if that. I work with a guy who did that. He was filing bankruptcy
and getting everything reposessed in a year or 2.

mike regish

"Chuck" > wrote in message
. com...
>>
>>
>
> Yea.. I think that I am done with this thread...
>
> I have tried my hardest to explain to people that I understand what they
> are
> saying and that I agree with them, but unfortunately, they can't
> understand
> that some people are not able to have cash laying around and in an
> EMERGENCY
> have no other choice but to use a credit card.
>
> But you are right, I think there are 2 or maybe 3 people here than
> understand what I am trying to say and then you have the jerks that have
> never experienced money problems and treat anyone that doesn't drive a
> Mercedes and belong to the country club, keep their Barron at their house
> at
> the airpark and go to the Playboy Mansion for parties like crap. These
> guys
> just don't get it...
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 11/26/2004
>
>

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 06:17 PM

Judah wrote:
> Matt Whiting > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>Because there is a lag time for these large attacks due to the planning
>>involved. It is well documented that the worst attack on Americal soil
>>was conceived, planned, and partially executed under Clinton. I
>>haven't tried to count, but what is your data to claim more attacks on
>>US soil under Bush than under Clinton? I can't think off-hand of any
>>that have been conceived, planned and executed since Bush was in
>>office.
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> 1) It was planned under Clinton, but executed under Bush. What part of
> 9/11, exactly, was executed under Clinton? Where is your data?

The financing and the flight training of the pilots, most, if not all,
of whom entered the country while Bill Clinton was president.

> 2) http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884893.html provides a list of Al-Qaeda
> sponsored terrorist attacks since 1993. You are correct, though. In my
> second post I misspoke - these attacks were not on American soil, but they
> were on American targets.

Yes, that is my recollection also.

> I don't think either of us will be swayed in this dispute...
>
> You seem to believe that the lack of another 9/11 type attack is due
> largely to the merit of Bush's policies, and do not consider the lag time
> for such a large attack in the equation, even while you use the same lag
> time to blame Clinton for the attacks in the first place. You have been
> fooled into feeling safe, and want to thank Bush for that, even though in
> reality, you are not much more or less safe than you were in 1993 or 2001.
> You go on with your life, happy to be protected by your wonderful, all-
> powerful Government.

Yes, I think Bush's much more aggressive approach to terrorism has
helped. Yes, I am considering the lag time, but I'm also considering
that four years is plenty of time given that this is about how long the
planning for 9/11 apparently took.

However, I'm under no delusion that we can prevent another large scale
attack. I think we can minimize the number and make them really
difficult to pull off, but I fully expect that someday the terrorists
will find a way to pull of another one. I just believe that we will
have far fewer of them with a very aggressive world-wide response than
we will have with a cruise missile into a tent approach that Clinton took.

> I, on the other hand, believe that Enemies of Freedom and of Western
> Civilization will continue to attack Americans and their Allies in whatever
> way they can, as indicated by the rise in terrorist attacks on American and
> Allied targets. I believe a better way to stop this than unilaterally
> taking down an Arab country or two is to get more of our powerful Allies to
> work with us against the problem. The Bush approach alienates many allies
> so that they sit idly by as we increase our size on the dartboard. I don't
> feel safer than I did in 2001 or 1993. But then, I am also not so afraid of
> another attack that I stop shopping at WalMart. I go on with my life, being
> a bit more suspicious and attentive, but mostly just happy to still be
> free, despite the best attempts of my all-powerful Government.

I agree that better cooperation with our allies will help. However, I
don't consider people who were taking oil money from Saddam to be our
allies as some other people do. So, not having the French onboard is a
plus in my book, not a minus.

I would like to see the moderate Arab countries brought into the fold
somehow, but I think that is unlikely to happen no matter what we do. I
think the only solution will come when the oil wells in the middle east
dry up and there is no longer money to fund terrorism on more than a
local scale.

Matt

Chuck

November 27th 04, 06:23 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:os3qd.402824$wV.36458@attbi_s54...

<snip>

> The only real idiots when it comes to credit are the ones who apply for
> every card offer they get and max them all out while paying minimum
> payments, if that. I work with a guy who did that. He was filing
bankruptcy
> and getting everything reposessed in a year or 2.
>

<snip>

Mike, I fully agree with your statement... Seems as though we are in a
minority though...

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Jay Honeck

November 27th 04, 06:56 PM

> Our entertainment consist of watching TV, going to visit family
(within 20
> miles), going to DFW airport and sitting at the park watching planes
take
> off and land, going to the American Airlines Museum (free), Pates
Museum of
> transportation (free), etc... We rarely go places that cost money...

You are not alone. Some of us are just farther along life's path.

When we first moved to Iowa in '97 to set up our business, we literally
spent everything we had to do it. We risked everything, and, of
course, it took months for our business (newspaper distribution) to
make any money -- plus we had a start-up business loan to pay off.

Needless to say, flying was occasional (at best), and entertainment
consisted of going to the public library with the kids, who were just 7
and 4 years old. We only ate out at the college-student-oriented
restaurants ($3 all-you-can-eat taco night -- whoopee!), and spent a
lot of time working.

It was a tough slog in the mud, but by being careful (and having no
life!) we paid off the start-up loan in a couple of years, avoided
credit card debt, drove old cars -- and by late '98 we were in a
position to buy our first airplane. (Which actually cost less than our
full-sized Ford van, by the way. Aircraft are NOT all that expensive.)

By 2002 we had "made it" to the point where we could look at trying
something fun -- like buying an old hotel and turning it into a dream
destination for pilots. We're making 1/3 of what we made in our last
business, but are having the time of our lives.

We've got a better plane now, but we still drive old cars, don't go out
a lot -- and we still have no credit card debt. In fact, the only
money we owe is on our home mortgage.

Bottom line: Fiscal responsibility and financial success *can* be had
-- but it takes discipline and hard work.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 07:08 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:xk3qd.402795$wV.106004@attbi_s54...
>
> That was the first one. All the others were given when each one in turn
> was proven false. He ended up using the lamest after they all
> failed-humanitarian. Not a lame reason in itself, but lame in that it was
> the only possible one left to him and it applies so much more in other
> parts of the world that just don't happen to be oil rich.
>

Which were proven false?

Chuck

November 27th 04, 07:28 PM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...

<snip>

> Bottom line: Fiscal responsibility and financial success *can* be had
> -- but it takes discipline and hard work.

And that is what I am trying to accomplish...

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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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mike regish

November 27th 04, 09:32 PM

All.

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
news:wg4qd.7556>
> Which were proven false?
>

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 09:54 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:ln6qd.573995$mD.171010@attbi_s02...
>
> All.
>

Well, that's not correct. It's unlikely you're even aware of the reasons
given.

Matt Whiting

November 27th 04, 10:11 PM

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Our entertainment consist of watching TV, going to visit family
>
> (within 20
>
>>miles), going to DFW airport and sitting at the park watching planes
>
> take
>
>>off and land, going to the American Airlines Museum (free), Pates
>
> Museum of
>
>>transportation (free), etc... We rarely go places that cost money...
>
>
> You are not alone. Some of us are just farther along life's path.
>
> When we first moved to Iowa in '97 to set up our business, we literally
> spent everything we had to do it. We risked everything, and, of
> course, it took months for our business (newspaper distribution) to
> make any money -- plus we had a start-up business loan to pay off.
>
> Needless to say, flying was occasional (at best), and entertainment
> consisted of going to the public library with the kids, who were just 7
> and 4 years old. We only ate out at the college-student-oriented
> restaurants ($3 all-you-can-eat taco night -- whoopee!), and spent a
> lot of time working.
>
> It was a tough slog in the mud, but by being careful (and having no
> life!) we paid off the start-up loan in a couple of years, avoided
> credit card debt, drove old cars -- and by late '98 we were in a
> position to buy our first airplane. (Which actually cost less than our
> full-sized Ford van, by the way. Aircraft are NOT all that expensive.)
>
> By 2002 we had "made it" to the point where we could look at trying
> something fun -- like buying an old hotel and turning it into a dream
> destination for pilots. We're making 1/3 of what we made in our last
> business, but are having the time of our lives.
>
> We've got a better plane now, but we still drive old cars, don't go out
> a lot -- and we still have no credit card debt. In fact, the only
> money we owe is on our home mortgage.
>
> Bottom line: Fiscal responsibility and financial success *can* be had
> -- but it takes discipline and hard work.

Yes, that is exactly the bottom line that a few here seem unwilling to
accept. It is easier to blame their problems on folks born with a
silver spoon in their mouth than to simply slog through the dark days
and get ahead of the debt curve. Unfortunately, our schools and often
our parents simply don't teach people good financial management skills.
And society in general certainly encourages financial recklessness and
people without the skills and will power to handle it can easily get in
trouble.

Matt

Mike V.

November 27th 04, 10:28 PM

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Mike V." > wrote in message
> news:od1qd.675986$8_6.344569@attbi_s04...
>>
>> Let me try to explain this to you even though you are clearly too damn
>> stupid to understand: some people do not have enough money to get by, let
>> alone some extra cash to set aside for emergencies.
>>
>> GET IT??
>
> I get it. And there are people who are in poor financial situations
> because they've made poor decisions. Do you get that?

So making poor decisions is an excuse for allowing corporations to screw
people over double when they are down? There is a limit to everything, and
the credit card co's have crossed the line. Joe Public deserves the same
sort of protections the credit card co's have been given by congress to ****
the average consumer.

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 10:42 PM

"Mike V." > wrote in message
news:5c7qd.107089$5K2.93270@attbi_s03...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>>
>> "Mike V." > wrote in message
>> news:od1qd.675986$8_6.344569@attbi_s04...
>>>
>>> Let me try to explain this to you even though you are clearly too damn
>>> stupid to understand: some people do not have enough money to get by,
>>> let alone some extra cash to set aside for emergencies.
>>>
>>> GET IT??
>>
>> I get it. And there are people who are in poor financial situations
>> because they've made poor decisions. Do you get that?
>
> So making poor decisions is an excuse for allowing corporations to screw
> people over double when they are down?

That's not the issue.

Mike V.

November 27th 04, 11:27 PM

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>>
>> So making poor decisions is an excuse for allowing corporations to screw
>> people over double when they are down?
>
> That's not the issue.

It absolutely is the issue. This is just another example of how this country
is ruled by faceless corporations instead of real people. Could you imagine
how much backlash small business owners would experience if they used the
same sort of strong arm tactics on their customers? They can't do it because
they do not have the money to lobby for protections the corporations are
routinely awarded by congress. Ever seen how little tax these large
corporations pay?.... a **** load less than I pay in my (small) business.

There has to be balance to be fair.

Dave Stadt

November 27th 04, 11:51 PM

"Mike V." > wrote in message
news:B38qd.154941$HA.64123@attbi_s01...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> >>
> >> So making poor decisions is an excuse for allowing corporations to
screw
> >> people over double when they are down?
> >
> > That's not the issue.
>
> It absolutely is the issue. This is just another example of how this
country
> is ruled by faceless corporations instead of real people. Could you
imagine
> how much backlash small business owners would experience if they used the
> same sort of strong arm tactics on their customers? They can't do it
because
> they do not have the money to lobby for protections the corporations are
> routinely awarded by congress. Ever seen how little tax these large
> corporations pay?.... a **** load less than I pay in my (small) business.
>
> There has to be balance to be fair.

The balance is very easy to put into place. Either don't use credit cards
or pay the bill in full every month. I have yet to see one of your faceless
corporations force anybody to use one of their credit cards.

Steven P. McNicoll

November 27th 04, 11:54 PM

"Mike V." > wrote in message
news:B38qd.154941$HA.64123@attbi_s01...
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>>>
>>> So making poor decisions is an excuse for allowing corporations to screw
>>> people over double when they are down?
>>
>> That's not the issue.
>
> It absolutely is the issue.

You're mistaken.

>
> This is just another example of how this country is ruled by faceless
> corporations instead of real people.

Wrong. This country is ruled by big government, not big corporations. No
corporation can require you to do anything or take your money or property or
liberty away from you. Government can.

>
> Could you imagine how much backlash small business owners would experience
> if they used the same sort of strong arm tactics on their customers?

What strong arm tactics?

>
> They can't do it because they do not have the money to lobby for
> protections the corporations are routinely awarded by congress.

So the problem is government, not corporations.

>
> Ever seen how little tax these large corporations pay?.... a **** load
> less than I pay in my (small) business.
>

So what? You both just pass them on to your customers. In the end all
taxes are paid by consumers.

>
> There has to be balance to be fair.

There has to be a free market to be fair, nothing else.

mike regish

November 28th 04, 12:00 AM

Paul stated them. I really don't need to restate them, do I?

Osama who?

They don't still let you push tin, do they?

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:ln6qd.573995$mD.171010@attbi_s02...
>>
>> All.
>>
>
> Well, that's not correct. It's unlikely you're even aware of the reasons
> given.
>

mike regish

November 28th 04, 12:04 AM

Paul Tomblin stated them. I really don't need to restate them for you, do I?

Osama who?

They don't still let you push tin, do they?

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:ln6qd.573995$mD.171010@attbi_s02...
>>
>> All.
>>
>
> Well, that's not correct. It's unlikely you're even aware of the reasons
> given.
>

Steven P. McNicoll

November 28th 04, 12:06 AM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:Cy8qd.574458$mD.362961@attbi_s02...
>
> Paul stated them.
>

Paul was misinformed. What he posted was incorrect.

>
> I really don't need to restate them, do I?
>

You may be able to copy and paste them, it's unlikely you could state them
yourself.

>
> Osama who?
>

Bin Laden.

mike regish

November 28th 04, 01:10 AM

Don't bet on it.

Do they still let you push tin?

mike regish

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:Cy8qd.574458$mD.362961@attbi_s02...
>>
>> Paul stated them.
>>
>
> Paul was misinformed. What he posted was incorrect.
>
>
>>
>> I really don't need to restate them, do I?
>>
>
> You may be able to copy and paste them, it's unlikely you could state them
> yourself.
>
>
>>
>> Osama who?
>>
>
> Bin Laden.
>

Matt Whiting

November 28th 04, 02:19 AM

Mike V. wrote:

> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>"Mike V." > wrote in message
>>news:od1qd.675986$8_6.344569@attbi_s04...
>>
>>>Let me try to explain this to you even though you are clearly too damn
>>>stupid to understand: some people do not have enough money to get by, let
>>>alone some extra cash to set aside for emergencies.
>>>
>>>GET IT??
>>
>>I get it. And there are people who are in poor financial situations
>>because they've made poor decisions. Do you get that?
>
>
> So making poor decisions is an excuse for allowing corporations to screw
> people over double when they are down? There is a limit to everything, and
> the credit card co's have crossed the line. Joe Public deserves the same
> sort of protections the credit card co's have been given by congress to ****
> the average consumer.

You signed the agreement. If they are doing something outside the
agreement, then, yes, the government should step in. If they aren't,
then they aren't screwing you or anyone else. You screwed up by signing
and agreement before you read it. This is a really simple concept, I'm
surprised you find it hard to understand.

Matt

Matt Whiting

November 28th 04, 02:21 AM

Mike V. wrote:

> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>
>>>So making poor decisions is an excuse for allowing corporations to screw
>>>people over double when they are down?
>>
>>That's not the issue.
>
>
> It absolutely is the issue. This is just another example of how this country
> is ruled by faceless corporations instead of real people. Could you imagine
> how much backlash small business owners would experience if they used the
> same sort of strong arm tactics on their customers? They can't do it because
> they do not have the money to lobby for protections the corporations are
> routinely awarded by congress. Ever seen how little tax these large
> corporations pay?.... a **** load less than I pay in my (small) business.

What protections are credit card companies getting? Oh, you mean the
protection that they get by having a contract signed by YOU. Yes, the
government shouldn't let them have people sign contracts.

Matt

Dick

November 28th 04, 02:30 AM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>>>One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will
>>>>screw
>>>>the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.
>>>
>>>has American Express or Diners Club done the same to you?
>>>(just curious)
>>
>>
>> We'll never know -- I threw BOTH of them out right after we opened, after
>> they tried to charge us 5% for each transaction. (The other cards --
>> Visa, Mastercard & Discover -- charge us "only" 4% for the privilege of
>> "working" with them.)
>
> Given this, why don't people like yourself offer discounts for cash any
> longer? Seems like less use of credit cards would be to your advantage.
> Are there other reasons that make credit cards convenient from the vendor
> viewpoint?

The fact that many people don't have the cash to buy good or services with
them is all the reason you need to accept credit cards. Few
companies/businesses can get away with shunning credit cards these days.
You lose business if you don't accept them.

this should be obvious.

>
>
> Matt
>

Judah

November 28th 04, 02:31 AM

Matt Whiting > wrote in
:

<snip>
> I agree that better cooperation with our allies will help. However, I
> don't consider people who were taking oil money from Saddam to be our
> allies as some other people do. So, not having the French onboard is a
> plus in my book, not a minus.

Everybody had a use for Saddam at some point in recent history... Even us.

> I would like to see the moderate Arab countries brought into the fold
> somehow, but I think that is unlikely to happen no matter what we do.
> I think the only solution will come when the oil wells in the middle
> east dry up and there is no longer money to fund terrorism on more than
> a local scale.

I guess for me, getting countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt to fess up and
clean house would be a start...

I agree with you completely - the best solution is to eliminate our
dependency on their oil one way or the other (finding an alternative fuel
source will work too) and their power will quickly diminish...

Dick

November 28th 04, 02:36 AM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Nlspd.150701$R05.147436@attbi_s53...
>> Kinda timely since PBS's Frontline had a show on credit cards last
>> Tuesday.
>> Very eye opening, it seems that a couple of Supreme Court decisions allow
>> credit card companies to charge whatever interest rate they want and to
>> raise the interest rate on money already on the balance.
>> Most of the credit card holders interviewed had never read or didn't
>> understand the "fine print" in their card contracts.
>
> One lesser known fact about credit card companies is that they will screw
> the VENDOR far more readily than they will their customers.
>
> Over the past couple of years we have had a handful of guests with
> guaranteed reservations not show up at the inn, who were charged for one
> night's stay. Two of them simply called their credit card companies and
> disputed the charge -- at which point the credit card company immediately
> credited them and charged us back, no questions asked!
>
> It was then up to US to "prove" to VISA that the guest had stayed with
> us -- which, of course, they had not. Despite the fact that these
> guests insisted on "guaranteed reservations", despite the fact that we had
> pre-authorized their stay on their credit card, despite the fact that we
> had mailed post cards to their home, reminding them of their
> reservation -- and despite the fact that we followed VISA's own procedures
> for no-shows to the letter -- we were totally helpless, and had to eat the
> bill. No amount of documentation or phone calls mattered to VISA.
>
> THAT is the real credit card scandal that is sweeping America right now --
> but no one outside of the industry knows (or, quite frankly) cares about
> it. But we ALL pay for scumbags like these in the end.

That is unfortunate, but did you really "lose" money? The card companies
make the money from the card holders, not the vendors. If no service was
received then you can't charge. Now this then gets into a discussion of a
"confirmed reservation" rather than a "regular reservation."

I would not go so far as to say it is a scandal or that they are scumbags.
Surely they are inconsiderate, but I think you overstate the case.

Did you have to clean the room when they didn't show up? Did you turn away
other guests? What you discuss is all part of the service industry. When
you are in that business you (hopefully) understand that you have to deal
with people and you cannot always choose your clients, though I suppose that
would be nice. Until that day comes, i am afraid you will have to deal with
all types of people and with the standard business practices.

> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

Garner Miller

November 28th 04, 02:43 AM

In article <Fuspd.85361$V41.50473@attbi_s52>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> Here's another credit card mystery: Why the hell does ANYONE use any card
> but Discover? Everyone else charges to use their cards, while Discover
> actually PAYS you to use their card -- yet they are a distant third or
> fourth in the industry.

If you pay your balance off each month, you wouldn't. But if you're
carrying a balance, that changes things considerably. My Disocver
"pays me back up to" 1%, while at the same time charging me 14.99% in
interest. If I put the same purchase on my MasterCard, I'm paying 6.9%
a.p.r.

Unless I pay the Discover off almost immediately, I come out far ahead
using my lower-interest MasterCard.

Someday, if I ever actually make some money in this business, I won't
need to worry about interest rates. That day's not here yet. :-)

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Clifton Park, NY =USA=

Casey Wilson

November 28th 04, 03:56 AM

"Dick" > wrote in message ...

> That is unfortunate, but did you really "lose" money? The card companies
> make the money from the card holders, not the vendors.

You couldn't be more wrong. Credit card companies charge the 'vendors'
a fee for each and every transaction. I fought with VISA for four months
over a disputed charge where they gave credit to the card user and refused
to refund the transaction fee they charged me.
The so-called customer used a credit card to sign up two people for a
conference. I paid the conference center based on a head count that included
him and his wife. I showed VISA the signed contract that put a date limit on
refunds. The customer did not provide any proof that they had ever
cancelled, much less on or before the cancellation date. VISA refused to
honor the charge and left me holding the bag. We no longer accept credit
cards for conference registration. I put most of the blame on the scumbag
deadhead.
Have you never noticed signs near cash registers that deny the use of a
credit card for sales below a minimum purchase? Have you never noticed some
'vendors' will offer a discount to customers that pay cash?

Jay Honeck

November 28th 04, 03:57 AM

> Did you tell them that if they didn't show they would be responsible for
> one night's payment.

Yes. Over and over, abundantly. With a guaranteed reservation, we'll hold
the suite all night.

The six home Iowa Hawkeye Big Ten football games are our biggest weekends of
the year. Rates go up 30%, and a two night minimum stay is required -- and
we still turn hundreds of people away. It's what gets us through the long,
dead winter ahead.

Just a few weeks ago a woman booked the Red Baron Suite for both nights, and
we pre-authorized the entire weekend's amount on her credit card.
Everything went through VISA just fine, we told her about the 7 day
cancellation policy (on football weekends, we demand a week's notice, so
that we are assured of re-booking the suite in the event of cancellation),
and we mailed her a reminder postcard, outlining what she had agreed to do.

When she didn't show up on Friday night of game weekend, we held the suite
open for her all night long -- turning away dozens of potential guests. I
called her first thing Saturday morning, and received no answer. I left her
a personal message, telling her that we were holding her "guaranteed" suite
for her, and held my breath.

She never showed up again Saturday night.

Ten days later, she called, spitting mad that we had charged her for ONE
night's stay. (I ate the other $150.) She just wouldn't hear of how
wounded WE were, and called me every name in the book. She then picked up
her phone, called her credit card company, disputed the charge -- and they
immediately reversed our charge AND charged us a $15 "processing fee" to
boot.

We are now in the middle of "the paper chase" with VISA -- but I guarantee
we will lose the battle even though we followed standard procedure to the
letter.

There is no honor among thieves, and what she did to us is no different than
if she had stolen a DVD player from her suite. Yet under the new credit
laws, VISA credits her -- and docks us -- no questions asked.

What VISA is now being allowed to do to their vendors under the guise of
"fairness to the customer" is going to destroy the credit card system in
America. (Which may not be a bad thing.) EVERY consumer is going to pay
more because of scumbags like this woman, and actions like hers will become
more widespread as more deadbeats discover this new way to "beat the
system."

By the way -- in case anyone is wondering, we've never been ripped off by a
pilot. Pilots ALWAYS leave clean suites, ALWAYS tip the housekeepers, and
ALWAYS put gas in the courtesy van when they're done.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck

November 28th 04, 04:12 AM

> So making poor decisions is an excuse for allowing corporations to screw
> people over double when they are down? There is a limit to everything, and
> the credit card co's have crossed the line. Joe Public deserves the same
> sort of protections the credit card co's have been given by congress to
> **** the average consumer.

Mike, you appear to be under the impression that the consumer is powerless
in the face of the big, bad credit card companies.

I'm here to tell you that you now have more power against them -- and
subsequently against the companies you used your charge card to purchase
items from -- than at any time in history. You literally don't have to pay
for ANYTHING on your bill, if you claim it to be fraudulently charged.
Your word to a clerk over the telephone is now good enough to get ANY charge
reversed, instantly -- and it's up to the store or service provider that
charged you to prove that it ISN'T a fraudulent charge.

The old system has literally been stood on its head, and there's a world of
sh*t coming down the pike for consumers -- who aren't even aware it's
coming -- because of it.

So, specifically, what new kind of protections are you looking for to use
against the credit card companies?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck

November 28th 04, 04:22 AM

> The only real idiots when it comes to credit are the ones who apply for
> every card offer they get and max them all out while paying minimum
> payments, if that. I work with a guy who did that. He was filing
> bankruptcy and getting everything reposessed in a year or 2.

This is frighteningly common.

In the early 90s I served as a volunteer on the board of directors of an
employee credit union at a small newspaper. As a director, I had a direct
say on whether people -- my co-workers and friends -- received loans of all
kinds.

We were VERY free and easy with our policies and procedures, but there were
people -- some very prominent people -- who literally were one paycheck away
from utter disaster. They were literally spending EVERYTHING they made on
minimum loan payments, yet they were applying for another loan from us.

In one notable case, we had to turn down a loan to a VERY important person
in the organization -- for a snowmobile! This woman could not muster
enough credit to borrow the pittance required to buy a snowmobile -- yet,
from the outside, she looked like a pillar of the community.

We saw this same predicament many times, much to my amazement and dismay.
In each case, they were incredulous that we wouldn't loan them the money.

Credit cards are like booze. For some, used sparingly, they are healthy.
For others, they are addictive and deadly.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck

November 28th 04, 04:25 AM

>> We'll never know -- I threw BOTH of them out right after we opened, after
>> they tried to charge us 5% for each transaction. (The other cards --
>> Visa, Mastercard & Discover -- charge us "only" 4% for the privilege of
>> "working" with them.)
>
> Given this, why don't people like yourself offer discounts for cash any
> longer? Seems like less use of credit cards would be to your advantage.
> Are there other reasons that make credit cards convenient from the vendor
> viewpoint?

Mostly it's a personnel problem. Our rate structure (with 9 different kinds
of suites, and a myriad of discounts) is so complex, I'd be afraid to throw
a "cash discount" into the mix.

However, I've been known to work out "side deals" for my Usenet friends...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck

November 28th 04, 04:26 AM

>> > has American Express or Diners Club done the same to you?
>> > (just curious)
>>
>> We'll never know -- I threw BOTH of them out right after we opened, after
>> they tried to charge us 5% for each transaction. (The other cards --
>> Visa,
>> Mastercard & Discover -- charge us "only" 4% for the privilege of
>> "working"
>> with them.)
>
> um, does making a reservation at your place require a credit card?

If you want a "guaranteed" reservation, yep.

If you want a "contingency" reservation -- where anyone who walks in the
door with cash can bump you -- nope.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck

November 28th 04, 04:28 AM

>> Well in my case I don't have a 'real' credit card. I have a debit visa
>>(work just the same). I keep most of my spendable money in checking then
>>use the Visa the same as cash. If I can't afford something then I don't
>>buy it.
>
> It does NOT work the same.
>
> a) Don't try renting a car.

And don't try using to reserve a hotel suite. Most debit cards (unless it's
a "dual" debit/credit card) will not work with a preauthorization -- which
is what is required to make a guaranteed reservation.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Peter

November 28th 04, 04:29 AM

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Did you tell them that if they didn't show they would be responsible for
>>one night's payment.
>
>
> Yes. Over and over, abundantly. With a guaranteed reservation, we'll hold
> the suite all night.

I've twice been on the reverse side of this situation where a hotel
gave me a guaranteed reservation and then failed to hold a room
available. Once the room had been reserved with either Visa or
Mastercard and the hotel basically told us that we were on our own
but could use the pay phone in the lobby to search for another place
to stay. Complaining later to the credit card company got us
nowhere. The other time an AMEX card had been used to hold the
reservation and the treatment was quite different. They
apologized for having overbooked, arranged transportation to
another hotel and paid for my first night's stay there plus a few
free phone calls so I could let others know where I was staying.
I heard similar stories from others and apparently AMEX had a
much stricter policy of making both the hotels and customers
adhere to the guaranteed reservation policies.

Bob Noel

November 28th 04, 04:38 AM

In article <Ctcqd.474453$D%.367363@attbi_s51>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> And don't try using to reserve a hotel suite. Most debit cards (unless it's
> a "dual" debit/credit card) will not work with a preauthorization -- which
> is what is required to make a guaranteed reservation.

:-( Then I won't be able to make a reservation for business travel at
your hotel.

--
Bob Noel

Jay Honeck

November 28th 04, 05:35 AM

> :-( Then I won't be able to make a reservation for business travel at
> your hotel.

Or anywhere else, for that matter.

I don't know of a single hotel (or even small B&B in our market) that
doesn't pre-authorize guaranteed reservations on a credit card. It's the
only way a hotel has of protecting itself against bogus reservations and
no-shows.

We can always do a "contingency" reservation without a card, but it's not
guaranteed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck

November 28th 04, 05:46 AM

> I've twice been on the reverse side of this situation where a hotel
> gave me a guaranteed reservation and then failed to hold a room
> available. Once the room had been reserved with either Visa or
> Mastercard and the hotel basically told us that we were on our own
> but could use the pay phone in the lobby to search for another place
> to stay. Complaining later to the credit card company got us
> nowhere. The other time an AMEX card had been used to hold the
> reservation and the treatment was quite different. They
> apologized for having overbooked, arranged transportation to
> another hotel and paid for my first night's stay there plus a few
> free phone calls so I could let others know where I was staying.
> I heard similar stories from others and apparently AMEX had a
> much stricter policy of making both the hotels and customers
> adhere to the guaranteed reservation policies.

Amex had nothing to do with it. You just found a hotel that unscrupulously
overbooks, but still has a conscience about doing so.

Unscrupulous hotels that over-book are trying to fight the no-show/bogus
reservation problem by playing the odds, rather than getting guaranteed
reservations and following through with charging no-shows. When everyone
actually shows up, someone gets screwed. You were "it" that night.

We NEVER over-book. Since each suite is unique, represents a different era
of aviation history, and is often specifically requested, it's pretty tough
to substitute one suite for another. Thus, with a guaranteed reservation,
that suite is yours -- no matter when you show up.

But, on the flipside, in exchange for this kind of service we will charge
you if you don't show up -- period.

One exception that ONLY pilots receive: If you are flying in, and
conditions drop to below VFR minimums anywhere along your route of flight,
you may cancel up to 6 PM without penalty. This "IFR Cancellation Policy"
has proven to be VERY popular with our private pilot guests, as you can
imagine! (We instituted it after running into hotel issues ourselves over
the years. Face it, flying a light plane isn't the most reliable form of
transportation, and thus we ended up never making hotel reservations in
advance, for fear of being charged for no-showing. This resulted in some
nasty sleeping experiences, on occasion, when we couldn't find a decent
hotel room.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

mike regish

November 28th 04, 05:49 AM

That ain't right. I can see the guarantee thing during a known busy weekend,
but if I make a reservation (contingency) and show up at or ahead of the
reservation time just to find out you don't have a room because somebody
else showed up before me with cash, I'm hauling somebody into court.

mike regish

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Srcqd.164139$R05.153882@attbi_s53...
>
> If you want a "contingency" reservation -- where anyone who walks in the
> door with cash can bump you -- nope.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

mike regish

November 28th 04, 05:54 AM

I should add that if I make the contingency reservation and am late then you
are free to rent the room out, but not before-guaranteed reservation or not.

mike regish

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:XFdqd.108569$5K2.15879@attbi_s03...
> That ain't right. I can see the guarantee thing during a known busy
> weekend, but if I make a reservation (contingency) and show up at or ahead
> of the reservation time just to find out you don't have a room because
> somebody else showed up before me with cash, I'm hauling somebody into
> court.
>
> mike regish
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:Srcqd.164139$R05.153882@attbi_s53...
>>
>> If you want a "contingency" reservation -- where anyone who walks in the
>> door with cash can bump you -- nope.
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>
>
>

Jay Honeck

November 28th 04, 06:16 AM

> That ain't right. I can see the guarantee thing during a known busy
> weekend, but if I make a reservation (contingency) and show up at or ahead
> of the reservation time just to find out you don't have a room because
> somebody else showed up before me with cash, I'm hauling somebody into
> court.

With only 27 suites to rent, we're in no position to play the "will they
show up?" game.

Which is why, if you want a guaranteed reservation, you've got to guarantee
that you're gonna show up. Since wiring money in advance is pretty awkward,
we must do it the credit card way -- even though I absolutely despise the
credit card companies, and it pains me to no end that I must pay those
*******s 4% of everything I take in.

But, if we didn't accept credit cards, our longevity would be measured in
weeks. Sadly, very few guests actually pay with cash.

(P.S. Hey, while I'm bitching, let's talk about the 5% I've got to pay to
the State of Iowa, and the 7% I've got to pay to Johnson County. Yep, a
whopping 16% of everything we bring in, off the top, goes to someone other
than Mary and me. Remember that next time you wonder why it costs so
damned much for a hotel room.)

(P.P.S. Of course, it would be much worse if we were part of a chain, or
used on-line booking agencies like Travelocity. Then we'd be giving away
upwards of 46% of everything we earned.)

(P.P.P.S. Which, by the way, is why we can afford to *include* a delivered
breakfast on a suite for which we only charge $59.95 per night, while the
chains cannot. That same breakfast, delivered to your suite at the
Sheraton, by itself will set you back over $40!)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Peter

November 28th 04, 06:30 AM

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>I've twice been on the reverse side of this situation where a hotel
>>gave me a guaranteed reservation and then failed to hold a room
>>available. Once the room had been reserved with either Visa or
>>Mastercard and the hotel basically told us that we were on our own
>>but could use the pay phone in the lobby to search for another place
>>to stay. Complaining later to the credit card company got us
>>nowhere. The other time an AMEX card had been used to hold the
>>reservation and the treatment was quite different. They
>>apologized for having overbooked, arranged transportation to
>>another hotel and paid for my first night's stay there plus a few
>>free phone calls so I could let others know where I was staying.
>>I heard similar stories from others and apparently AMEX had a
>>much stricter policy of making both the hotels and customers
>>adhere to the guaranteed reservation policies.
>
>
> Amex had nothing to do with it. You just found a hotel that unscrupulously
> overbooks, but still has a conscience about doing so.

This was at least a couple decades ago and I believe that
AMEX had everything to do with it. At that time AMEX was
in a very strong position in the hotel industry and was
reported to revoke their arrangements with hotels that
didn't honor their reservations. No idea what the current
policies are since the relative influence of AMEX vs. other
card providers has changed rather dramatically.

Roger

November 28th 04, 06:43 AM

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 18:02:20 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

>In a previous article, "RS" > said:
>>If you have an AOPA/MBNA credit card then you should check the APR on your
>>last statements. MBNA has been raising the APR on AOPA cardholders, even if
>>you pay on time.
>
>Anybody who carries a balance on any credit card is an idiot or a sucker.
>The credit card companies hate me because I haven't paid a cent of
>interest to any of them in 3 years. I get about 5 envelopes full of Visa
>checks every month (as well as come-ons for new cards) because they want
>to sucker me into that debt cycle.

Credit cards are good for two things:
Convenience and emergencies:
They are NOT good for credit!

Even a signature loan will be half or less for the interest. That is
why there are companies out there making a business of saving credit
card users money.

I've never figured out how people do the economics of using a credit
card to purchase things they don't have the money for otherwise.
Credit cards are by far the most expensive way to purchase most
anything if they are not paid off on time.

If I don't have the cash handy for a large ticket item, I'll take out
a short term signature loan.

With the money Capitol one spends one spends on sending me junk mail I
could probably afford to fly for a few hours. No wonder I read they
need the money.

My own credit card co sends me those darn checks (Instant case) and
other incentives. Of course if I use any of that the interest is
charged from day one. There is no grace period to the due date.

I must receive at least 5 "pre approved" credit card applications per
week to feed the paper shredder.

There are far better ways to borrow than on a credit card.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Morgans

November 28th 04, 08:04 AM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote the same thing twice:-)

Has anyone noticed that there are a lot of duplicate posts lately, or is it
just my ISP?
--
Jim in NC

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.802 / Virus Database: 545 - Release Date: 11/26/2004

Martin Hotze

November 28th 04, 09:16 AM

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 06:16:51 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

>Which is why, if you want a guaranteed reservation, you've got to guarantee
>that you're gonna show up. Since wiring money in advance is pretty awkward,
>we must do it the credit card way -- even though I absolutely despise the
>credit card companies, and it pains me to no end that I must pay those
>*******s 4% of everything I take in.

in my branche we have to pay 6%

>(P.S. Hey, while I'm bitching, let's talk about the 5% I've got to pay to
>the State of Iowa, and the 7% I've got to pay to Johnson County. Yep, a
>whopping 16% of everything we bring in, off the top, goes to someone other
>than Mary and me. Remember that next time you wonder why it costs so
>damned much for a hotel room.)

we have 20% VAT.

and next time you walk along a fresh paved street ask where the money comes
from (or where your airport might get its funding from, ...).
And your government needs the money for fighting against terrorism etc. -
so arguing about your 16% is just like directly supporting terrorism. :-))

>(P.P.S. Of course, it would be much worse if we were part of a chain, or
>used on-line booking agencies like Travelocity. Then we'd be giving away
>upwards of 46% of everything we earned.)

that's a quick calculation: can you cover your costs and make a profit with
the remaining 54%?

#m

--
The policy of the American government is to leave its citizens free,
neither restraining them nor aiding them in their pursuits.
Thomas Jefferson

Cub Driver

November 28th 04, 10:54 AM

>>Niagara Falls.
>>
>>Matt
>
>Maybe because of more tourists?

I don't think so. More like, it's a major artery on both sides of the
river. The New York Thruway must dump thousands of people onto those
bridges every day. (The main bridge doesn't even go through Niagara.)

When I was stuck on that bridge, it seemed to me to be mostly trucks.

I was impressed by how smart and friendly the customs guys were, on
both sides of the border. Stupidly I neglected to bring my passport,
having grown up in the era when all you needed to cross the border was
a driver's license. But nobody asked for it!

(Two round trips in the summer of 2002.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

Bob Noel

November 28th 04, 12:33 PM

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote the same thing twice:-)
>
> Has anyone noticed that there are a lot of duplicate posts lately, or is it
> just my ISP?

I think it may be your ISP. I haven't seen even a few duplicate
posts lately.

--
Bob Noel

Bob Noel

November 28th 04, 12:38 PM

In article <Tsdqd.405505$wV.131490@attbi_s54>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > :-( Then I won't be able to make a reservation for business travel at
> > your hotel.
>
> Or anywhere else, for that matter.

Jay: I have a Diners Club card which I've been using the early 90's
for business travel.

> I don't know of a single hotel (or even small B&B in our market) that
> doesn't pre-authorize guaranteed reservations on a credit card.

right. But your hotel is the only one that I've heard of that doesn't
take American Express or Diners. I don't have a Visa card
(just a debit card)

--
Bob Noel

Ron Rosenfeld

November 28th 04, 01:08 PM

On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 05:54:10 -0500, Cub Driver >
wrote:

>I don't think so. More like, it's a major artery on both sides of the
>river. The New York Thruway must dump thousands of people onto those
>bridges every day. (The main bridge doesn't even go through Niagara.)
>
>When I was stuck on that bridge, it seemed to me to be mostly trucks.
>
>I was impressed by how smart and friendly the customs guys were, on
>both sides of the border. Stupidly I neglected to bring my passport,
>having grown up in the era when all you needed to cross the border was
>a driver's license. But nobody asked for it!
>
>(Two round trips in the summer of 2002.)

Doesn't sound as if you were "hassled". Just caught in traffic.

There's a lot of truck traffic at the Calais/St. Stephen border crossing,
too, but with no major highways, no where near as much as at the major
crossings. Of course, there's only one or two customs booths open at a
time, so the lines can get long. (And there's a little used crossing a few
miles away, NOT known by the tourists, that we use when the main crossing
backs up).

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Matt Whiting

November 28th 04, 01:26 PM

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>:-( Then I won't be able to make a reservation for business travel at
>>your hotel.
>
>
> Or anywhere else, for that matter.
>
> I don't know of a single hotel (or even small B&B in our market) that
> doesn't pre-authorize guaranteed reservations on a credit card. It's the
> only way a hotel has of protecting itself against bogus reservations and
> no-shows.

From what you wrote earlier, it doesn't sound like the CC even gives
you protection from no-shows, so why bother?

Matt

Jay Honeck

November 28th 04, 02:05 PM

> right. But your hotel is the only one that I've heard of that doesn't
> take American Express or Diners. I don't have a Visa card
> (just a debit card)

Yeah, we took a stand against the machine. By my count, since August of
2002 it has cost me 3 customers.

American Express is dying -- and Diner's Club barely exists. 92% of our
guests use Visa/Mastercard (they really *are* the same, BTW), 4% use
Discover, and 4% pay cash.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Rich

November 28th 04, 02:06 PM

Yes... basic values used to be taught at home by parents and family.
Since they are not (in general), it sure seems they should be taught in
school.

It always puzzled me that there is emphasis on learning that the "Battle
of Hastings was fought in 1066" and how to solve quadratic equations
(When will you EVER use this information in real life?) and nothing
taught about REAL life skills kids lack and really need.

Rich

Matt Whiting wrote:
Unfortunately, our schools and often
> our parents simply don't teach people good financial management skills.
>
>
> Matt
>

Jay Honeck

November 28th 04, 02:07 PM

>> I don't know of a single hotel (or even small B&B in our market) that
>> doesn't pre-authorize guaranteed reservations on a credit card. It's
>> the only way a hotel has of protecting itself against bogus reservations
>> and no-shows.
>
> From what you wrote earlier, it doesn't sound like the CC even gives you
> protection from no-shows, so why bother?

Because most people still think it does.

I've let the cat out of the bag here, though, haven't I?

;-)

Luckily, we've never been stiffed by a pilot -- ever. Unfortunately, there
aren't enough of us to go around.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Steven P. McNicoll

November 28th 04, 02:09 PM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Srcqd.164139$R05.153882@attbi_s53...
>>
>> um, does making a reservation at your place require a credit card?
>>
>
> If you want a "guaranteed" reservation, yep.
>
> If you want a "contingency" reservation -- where anyone who walks in the
> door with cash can bump you -- nope.
>

So what's the difference between a "contingency" reservation and no
reservation?

mike regish

November 28th 04, 03:15 PM

So what you're saying then, is that you basically don't accept anything BUT
guaranteed reservations. Do you understand that this sounds kind of like a
racket to me? You get guaranteed reservations and HOPE the people don't show
up so you can collect their money without providing anything. You can also
collect double for the room if they don't show up and somebody else comes
along and takes the room. Is this even legal?

I can see getting a night's fee if they don't show up and you keep their
room available for them anyways, but, like I said, if I make a "contingency"
reservation and get there on time, I expect to have a room. If I don't show
up on time, I expect I MAY have a room, but then again I may not. That would
be my fault.

mike regish

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:n3eqd.164904$R05.161886@attbi_s53...
>> That ain't right. I can see the guarantee thing during a known busy
>> weekend, but if I make a reservation (contingency) and show up at or
>> ahead of the reservation time just to find out you don't have a room
>> because somebody else showed up before me with cash, I'm hauling somebody
>> into court.
>
> With only 27 suites to rent, we're in no position to play the "will they
> show up?" game.
>
> Which is why, if you want a guaranteed reservation, you've got to
> guarantee that you're gonna show up. Since wiring money in advance is
> pretty awkward, we must do it the credit card way -- even though I
> absolutely despise the credit card companies, and it pains me to no end
> that I must pay those *******s 4% of everything I take in.
>
> But, if we didn't accept credit cards, our longevity would be measured in
> weeks. Sadly, very few guests actually pay with cash.
>
> (P.S. Hey, while I'm bitching, let's talk about the 5% I've got to pay to
> the State of Iowa, and the 7% I've got to pay to Johnson County. Yep, a
> whopping 16% of everything we bring in, off the top, goes to someone other
> than Mary and me. Remember that next time you wonder why it costs so
> damned much for a hotel room.)
>
> (P.P.S. Of course, it would be much worse if we were part of a chain, or
> used on-line booking agencies like Travelocity. Then we'd be giving away
> upwards of 46% of everything we earned.)
>
> (P.P.P.S. Which, by the way, is why we can afford to *include* a
> delivered breakfast on a suite for which we only charge $59.95 per night,
> while the chains cannot. That same breakfast, delivered to your suite at
> the Sheraton, by itself will set you back over $40!)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>