report a near-collision to FBO owner?

[gatt]

While preflighting the Arrow yesterday afternoon I watched a C172 pull up
through the tiedown T right next to me. Not sure why he didn't stop right
at the chains. Instead, he pulled ahead and stopped.

As he was beginning to push the airplane back, the other FBO C172 darted in
from behind and took the first guy's parking spot like it was a friggin'
shopping mall parking lot at Christmas.

So, for a second, while I watched, one pilot was pushing his airplane back,
toward the other, who was moving up on his tail at greater than walking
speek with his engine running. When his prop stopped about 2 feet from the
first airplane's tail. To the immediate right of the airplanes was the
other FBO tiedown spot, which was perfect empty, because that's where the
2nd aircraft was normally tied down.

The pilot of the first plane decided to walk off his anger. The pilot of
the second acted absolutely oblivious, as if it was the other guy's fault
for almost pushing his airplane back into the guy's prop. He just shrugged
the whole incident off and went about his business. No harm, no foul.
Another pilot came along a bit later and helped the first pilot drag the
airplane to the empty spot right next to them.

Here's the catch: The FBO owner explicitly forbids taxiing in from the back
because of clearance issues. Specifically, because a newly-minted private
pilot had tried to hotrod the 172 into the tiedown a couple of months ago
and banged wings with the other 172. The damage was between spars, so the
repair was $900 and some Bondo. Three weeks ago his instructor was
terminated for doing the SAME THING, except, fortunately, he didn't hit the
wing. Made such a racket jockeying the brakes and the throttle between
airplanes, though, that people complained.

It turns out the pilot who had the collision had done nearly the same thing
returning from his checkride...except, fortunately, the other plane was a
transient Bonanza. DURING THIS GUY'S CHECKRIDE, his wingtip passed right
over the Bonanza's, and he PASSED.

So in the last couple of months I've seen four people not just break the FBO
policy, but taxi like idiots all but parallel parking their airplanes around
others, and near prop-strike that would have showered me with debris, and
both of the FBO Cessnas scratched or dented by a guy who nearly collided
with a Bonanza while passing his checkride.

WTF is going on here?! And how can you even pass a checkride if your wing
passes over the wing of a parked aircraft?

The fellow who runs the FBO is a retired cop, mayor and career Marine. He's
gonna blow a gasket when he hears about it, but I believe it's my duty to
report what I saw almost happen to his airplanes. Thoughts?

-c

[NW_PILOT]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> While preflighting the Arrow yesterday afternoon I watched a C172 pull up
> through the tiedown T right next to me. Not sure why he didn't stop right
> at the chains. Instead, he pulled ahead and stopped.
>
> As he was beginning to push the airplane back, the other FBO C172 darted
in
> from behind and took the first guy's parking spot like it was a friggin'
> shopping mall parking lot at Christmas.
>
> So, for a second, while I watched, one pilot was pushing his airplane
back,
> toward the other, who was moving up on his tail at greater than walking
> speek with his engine running. When his prop stopped about 2 feet from
the
> first airplane's tail. To the immediate right of the airplanes was the
> other FBO tiedown spot, which was perfect empty, because that's where the
> 2nd aircraft was normally tied down.
>
> The pilot of the first plane decided to walk off his anger. The pilot of
> the second acted absolutely oblivious, as if it was the other guy's fault
> for almost pushing his airplane back into the guy's prop. He just shrugged
> the whole incident off and went about his business. No harm, no foul.
> Another pilot came along a bit later and helped the first pilot drag the
> airplane to the empty spot right next to them.
>
> Here's the catch: The FBO owner explicitly forbids taxiing in from the
back
> because of clearance issues. Specifically, because a newly-minted private
> pilot had tried to hotrod the 172 into the tiedown a couple of months ago
> and banged wings with the other 172. The damage was between spars, so
the
> repair was $900 and some Bondo. Three weeks ago his instructor was
> terminated for doing the SAME THING, except, fortunately, he didn't hit
the
> wing. Made such a racket jockeying the brakes and the throttle between
> airplanes, though, that people complained.
>
> It turns out the pilot who had the collision had done nearly the same thin
g
> returning from his checkride...except, fortunately, the other plane was a
> transient Bonanza. DURING THIS GUY'S CHECKRIDE, his wingtip passed right
> over the Bonanza's, and he PASSED.
>
> So in the last couple of months I've seen four people not just break the
FBO
> policy, but taxi like idiots all but parallel parking their airplanes
around
> others, and near prop-strike that would have showered me with debris, and
> both of the FBO Cessnas scratched or dented by a guy who nearly collided
> with a Bonanza while passing his checkride.
>
> WTF is going on here?! And how can you even pass a checkride if your wing
> passes over the wing of a parked aircraft?
>
> The fellow who runs the FBO is a retired cop, mayor and career Marine.
He's
> gonna blow a gasket when he hears about it, but I believe it's my duty to
> report what I saw almost happen to his airplanes. Thoughts?
>
> -c
>
>

Gorge Winds ramp is large enough it would take a very unsafe pilot to bang
something up or even hit another airplane. I would contact the pilot and
have a discussion with them about it first remind them of the rules and tell
them that if you see it happen again it will be brought to Gorge Winds
attention. If the pilot don't understand or is unresponsive, rude then yes
bring it to attention Gorge Winds because I would not want that fellow
taxiing near my airplane and if they keep damaging the aircraft the rates
you will pay will go up.

[gatt]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message news:X7Kdnae5mqN-

> Gorge Winds ramp is large enough it would take a very unsafe pilot to bang
> something up or even hit another airplane.

Plus, every FBO airplane there has a spot reserved for it. The guy could
have simply pulled into the one from which he took the airplane instead of
taking the spot the other fellow was already pushing his plane into.

Crazy. The owner's on vacation but since my first post I've learned that at
least two of the instructors saw it happen, so I think there's going to be
some attention given to the incident anyhow.

-c

[[email protected]]

gatt wrote:
<snip>
> WTF is going on here?! And how can you even pass a checkride if your
wing
> passes over the wing of a parked aircraft?
>

I don't think that is specifically against any rules. Often times
while parking I'll manuever my (low) wing underneath the wing of a
neighboring Cessna. Of course, I'm just not tearing willy-nilly into a
parking space without regard to other airplanes or people. I do it
slowly and carefully.

That said, it sounds like the FBO has instituted these rules for a
good reason (tight parking, foot traffic). If people are regularly
breaking the rule and causing the problems you described, I'd certainly
bring it up with the FBO management. Perhaps they need to emphasize
the rule a bit more and spell out some penalties. It sounds like they
might not have spread the word in a strong enough manner.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Nathan Young]

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:03:38 -0800, "gatt" >
wrote:

>
>While preflighting the Arrow yesterday afternoon I watched a C172 pull up
>through the tiedown T right next to me. Not sure why he didn't stop right
>at the chains. Instead, he pulled ahead and stopped.
>
>As he was beginning to push the airplane back, the other FBO C172 darted in
>from behind and took the first guy's parking spot like it was a friggin'
>shopping mall parking lot at Christmas.
<snip>
>The fellow who runs the FBO is a retired cop, mayor and career Marine. He's
>gonna blow a gasket when he hears about it, but I believe it's my duty to
>report what I saw almost happen to his airplanes. Thoughts?

Rather than bust the pilots (although it sounds like the 2nd C172
pilot was an idiot) - can you address the root of the problem so that
it doesn't happen anymore in the future?

I am having a difficult time visualizing the ramp setup... But, would
it be possible to paint diagonal yellow stripes behind the tiedown to
indicate that the area is not to be traversed.

For an aviation sense of humor, how about a hold short line behind the
tiedown?

Having said this, people are lazy, and will always cut corners. And
it is hard to legislate against stupidity. Last summer, we had a
transient taxi off the parallel taxiway, across the grass to pull
directly into a tiedown on the edge of the ramp. The tiedown is next
to a fuel farm and there are concrete posts to protect/prevent against
wingtips hitting the pump. The transient Cessna hit the concrete
post, and the wing was badly damaged. The pilot ranted at the FBO
staff and promised to sue them for damages because the FBO told him
(via radio) to park in that spot. Of course, the FBO never told him
to skip the taxiway to the ramp and cut across the grass...

-Nathan

[Dave Stadt]

So what's the big deal of a high wing passing over a low wing?

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
>> It turns out the pilot who had the collision had done nearly the same
thing
> returning from his checkride...except, fortunately, the other plane was a
> transient Bonanza. DURING THIS GUY'S CHECKRIDE, his wingtip passed right
> over the Bonanza's, and he PASSED.
>
>

[BTIZ]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NW_PILOT" > wrote in message news:X7Kdnae5mqN-
>
>> Gorge Winds ramp is large enough it would take a very unsafe pilot to
>> bang
>> something up or even hit another airplane.
>
> Plus, every FBO airplane there has a spot reserved for it. The guy could
> have simply pulled into the one from which he took the airplane instead of
> taking the spot the other fellow was already pushing his plane into.
>
> Crazy. The owner's on vacation but since my first post I've learned that
> at
> least two of the instructors saw it happen, so I think there's going to be
> some attention given to the incident anyhow.
>
> -c

If the instructors are in the employ of the FBO.. and they don't say
something... around here they'd be fired for not doing their job.

Personally, if you have a good relationship with the FBO.. have a closed
door... I'm nervous about the operations around here because.. I could get
roped into the next guys accident if I was preflighting or parking and he
hit me... and end it with... It's something I think you ought to know.. I
enjoy flying your planes... but these guys out here don't follow your rules
and I'm not sure they don't do the same in the air and may overstress
something and I get a broke plane and don't know it.

but that's jsut my 2c
BT

[Bob Gardner]

I'll buy all of your argument except the rant about high wing/low wing. Done
it many times without swapping paint. Can't imagine a DE getting upset about
it.

Bob Gardner

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> While preflighting the Arrow yesterday afternoon I watched a C172 pull up
> through the tiedown T right next to me. Not sure why he didn't stop right
> at the chains. Instead, he pulled ahead and stopped.
>
> As he was beginning to push the airplane back, the other FBO C172 darted
> in
> from behind and took the first guy's parking spot like it was a friggin'
> shopping mall parking lot at Christmas.
>
> So, for a second, while I watched, one pilot was pushing his airplane
> back,
> toward the other, who was moving up on his tail at greater than walking
> speek with his engine running. When his prop stopped about 2 feet from
> the
> first airplane's tail. To the immediate right of the airplanes was the
> other FBO tiedown spot, which was perfect empty, because that's where the
> 2nd aircraft was normally tied down.
>
> The pilot of the first plane decided to walk off his anger. The pilot of
> the second acted absolutely oblivious, as if it was the other guy's fault
> for almost pushing his airplane back into the guy's prop. He just shrugged
> the whole incident off and went about his business. No harm, no foul.
> Another pilot came along a bit later and helped the first pilot drag the
> airplane to the empty spot right next to them.
>
> Here's the catch: The FBO owner explicitly forbids taxiing in from the
> back
> because of clearance issues. Specifically, because a newly-minted private
> pilot had tried to hotrod the 172 into the tiedown a couple of months ago
> and banged wings with the other 172. The damage was between spars, so
> the
> repair was $900 and some Bondo. Three weeks ago his instructor was
> terminated for doing the SAME THING, except, fortunately, he didn't hit
> the
> wing. Made such a racket jockeying the brakes and the throttle between
> airplanes, though, that people complained.
>
> It turns out the pilot who had the collision had done nearly the same
> thing
> returning from his checkride...except, fortunately, the other plane was a
> transient Bonanza. DURING THIS GUY'S CHECKRIDE, his wingtip passed right
> over the Bonanza's, and he PASSED.
>
> So in the last couple of months I've seen four people not just break the
> FBO
> policy, but taxi like idiots all but parallel parking their airplanes
> around
> others, and near prop-strike that would have showered me with debris, and
> both of the FBO Cessnas scratched or dented by a guy who nearly collided
> with a Bonanza while passing his checkride.
>
> WTF is going on here?! And how can you even pass a checkride if your wing
> passes over the wing of a parked aircraft?
>
> The fellow who runs the FBO is a retired cop, mayor and career Marine.
> He's
> gonna blow a gasket when he hears about it, but I believe it's my duty to
> report what I saw almost happen to his airplanes. Thoughts?
>
> -c
>
>

[nobody]

OK, how about something like this...
Tell the owner about the incident you saw, express your concern about damage
to aircraft and safety in general. If he demands to know the identity of the
pilots involved, tell him and let him handle it. Otherwise, suggest a
bulletin board posting or better yet a letter sent to all club
members/renters with something like 'in the past few weeks...several safety
and courtesy issues have arisen...', spell out some rules for the club/FBO
regarding taxiing and parking, and end it with '..any pilot reported
violating these safety rules will have membership/renter status revoked
immediately'.

Basically, ship up or ship out.

[Colin W Kingsbury]

Ditto that.

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> I'll buy all of your argument except the rant about high wing/low wing.
Done
> it many times without swapping paint. Can't imagine a DE getting upset
about
> it.
>
> Bob Gardner

[NW_PILOT]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "NW_PILOT" > wrote in message news:X7Kdnae5mqN-
>
> > Gorge Winds ramp is large enough it would take a very unsafe pilot to
bang
> > something up or even hit another airplane.
>
> Plus, every FBO airplane there has a spot reserved for it. The guy could
> have simply pulled into the one from which he took the airplane instead of
> taking the spot the other fellow was already pushing his plane into.
>
> Crazy. The owner's on vacation but since my first post I've learned that
at
> least two of the instructors saw it happen, so I think there's going to be
> some attention given to the incident anyhow.
>
> -c
>
>

Gorge Winds is an exelent FBO one of the few that I trust and that are run
with out crooked sales tactics in the local area, From what I seen they are
very competive in their rental rates also.

[G.R. Patterson III]

gatt wrote:
>
> The fellow who runs the FBO is a retired cop, mayor and career Marine. He's
> gonna blow a gasket when he hears about it, but I believe it's my duty to
> report what I saw almost happen to his airplanes. Thoughts?

A few years ago, somebody crunched the left aileron of my Maule. Damage was over
$1,000 and I missed a couple months of good flying weather. Never did find out
who did it or how.

Report it.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

[C J Campbell]

Report it to the FBO. But don't worry about the high wing passing over the
low wing. It is the natural order of things.

[gatt]

"Nathan Young" > wrote in message \

> For an aviation sense of humor, how about a hold short line behind the
> tiedown?

LOL! That's a great idea!

[gatt]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message news:0fKdndt-

> I'll buy all of your argument except the rant about high wing/low wing.
Done
> it many times without swapping paint.

Interesting. Wouldn't have even considered it myself. Do you think it's
something you'd want a newly-minted pilot to do?

(I'm biased...it's the same guy that banged the two Cessnas I fly together
only a couple of weeks after his checkride, so I'm not giving him much
slack.)

-c

[Stefan]

gatt wrote:

>>I'll buy all of your argument except the rant about high wing/low wing.
>> Done it many times without swapping paint.

> Interesting. Wouldn't have even considered it myself. Do you think it's
> something you'd want a newly-minted pilot to do?

Yes. Our students learn to look out of the window and to taxi carefully
right from lesson 1.

Stefan

[Colin W Kingsbury]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message news:0fKdndt-
>
> > I'll buy all of your argument except the rant about high wing/low wing.
> Done
> > it many times without swapping paint.
>
> Interesting. Wouldn't have even considered it myself. Do you think it's
> something you'd want a newly-minted pilot to do?

Just out of curiosity, are you near a densely-populated area where people
need to know how to actually park their cars? I live in Boston and always
get a kick when watching some out-of-towner trying to parallel park who
obviously hasn't done so in at least ten years. The relevance is that the
FBO I used to rent from in the area discouraged "driving in" to tiedowns but
it was not really enforced and even all the instructors did it.

> (I'm biased...it's the same guy that banged the two Cessnas I fly together
> only a couple of weeks after his checkride, so I'm not giving him much
> slack.)

Fair enough. If I was that guy I'd refrain from it for a while too.

-cwk.

[tscottme]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...

>
> It turns out the pilot who had the collision had done nearly the same
thing
> returning from his checkride


Proving that people with "bad luck" often spend their free time fishing for
it.

--

Scott

Like the archers of Agincourt, John O'Neill and the 254 Swiftboat Veterans
took down their own haughty Frenchman. - Ann Coulter

[MCT]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
>

If you're flying out of Gorge Winds, I was wondering if I could chat with
you offline, somehow. I train (well, used to, until finances hit) at that
school and had a few questions.

Thanks

--
MCT

First impressions are important, so why not start with the reflection in the
mirror?

[steve.t]

When I was learning to fly, I was learning at two different airports,
one quite crowded and the other quite spacious.

The CFIs in both situations showed me how to manuover past low wing
planes while operating a high wing plane (e.g., our wings overlapped a
few feet).

Now that I fly a Piper, I do the same thing with Cessnas. But I don't
do it at any speed. With the CFIs and now solo this is done at 1/2
walking speed or slower.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

[gatt]

"Colin W Kingsbury" > wrote in message
news:ziZCd.1521

> Just out of curiosity, are you near a densely-populated area where people
> need to know how to actually park their cars?

Pretty much. Portland, OR.

> I live in Boston and always get a kick when watching some out-of-towner
trying to >parallel park who obviously hasn't done so in at least ten years.
The relevance is that the
> FBO I used to rent from in the area discouraged "driving in" to tiedowns
but
> it was not really enforced and even all the instructors did it.

The FBO had no problem with it until the accident occured. Guess the owner
was generous enough to leave just enough rope out there for people to hang
themselves with, and finally somebody did. There's only a few spots where
you can't drive into because of the narrow space between parked airplanes
and a cyclone fence. Further down the line you can park however you want,
but there's a twin and a 182 there, so they have more experience pilots
handling those anyhow.

-c

[gatt]

"MCT" > wrote in message
...

> If you're flying out of Gorge Winds, I was wondering if I could chat with
> you offline, somehow. I train (well, used to, until finances hit) at that
> school and had a few questions.

Sure! e-mail me at gatt @ juggerbot dot com.

-c

[Brooks Hagenow]

C J Campbell wrote:
> Report it to the FBO. But don't worry about the high wing passing over the
> low wing. It is the natural order of things.
>
>


LOL!

Maybe I am easily amused but I think that "natural order of things"
comment is pretty good.