IFR class E

[mindenpilot]

I'm VFR and have some questions about IFR.
I've been toying with the idea of pursuing an IFR rating, especially due to
the recent (uncharacteristic) fog.
I've only flown real in IMC once.
I was at a class D airport, and the CFI got clearance before takeoff.
He got all kinds of instructions for going up through the soup.

I'm wondering how that works at a class E airport, like the one I'm based at
in Minden, NV.
For example, if there was real IMC (a fog layer at 300 AGL), would you be
allowed to take off?
If so, what would be the procedure?
How would you ensure separation from other traffic?
The closest tower is Reno, but they wouldn't be able to get any radar fix
until you climbed to about 3500' AGL.

Similarly, for landing (assuming a GPS approach is approved, there is no
ILS, etc).
What would you do once Reno lost radar contact?

Thanks,

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Peter R.]

mindenpilot ) wrote:

> I'm wondering how that works at a class E airport, like the one I'm based at
> in Minden, NV.
> For example, if there was real IMC (a fog layer at 300 AGL), would you be
> allowed to take off?
> If so, what would be the procedure?

The communication note for Minden reads (area code left out in the event
of some Usenet telephone number spam harvester, if there is such a
thing):

FOR CD/P CALL RENO APCH CTL ON (xxx) 348-8840

Thus, you would call this number while on the ground after your
preflight to receive your clearance. Assuming there was not an IFR
aircraft approaching to land, Reno approach would issue you a clearance
on the ground with a void time. This means you have until that time to
take off and climb to an altitude where they will pick you up on radar.

During this block of time, the airport is yours. No other aircraft can
take off IFR until you do.

> How would you ensure separation from other traffic?

If the field were IFR, the system restricts other IFR aircraft from
taking off until you do. Again, if an aircraft were on an IFR
approach, it would have to land and call to cancel the IFR flight plan
before Reno would issue you the clearance to depart.


> The closest tower is Reno, but they wouldn't be able to get any radar fix
> until you climbed to about 3500' AGL.

Take off, follow the departure/obstacle clearance procedure, then fly
your clearance. As soon as able, make contact with Reno. Even if they
cannot pick you up you might be able to establish radio contact with
them to let them know you are off and climbing.

> Similarly, for landing (assuming a GPS approach is approved, there is no
> ILS, etc).
> What would you do once Reno lost radar contact?

Reno would vector you to the IAF, then clear you for the approach. At
that point, you are on your own to fly the published approach to the
best of your ability. :)

Once on the ground, you must immediately call Reno on a land line to
cancel your IFR flight plan so that a) they know you landed safely and
b) they can release the airport for other IFR operations.


--
Peter






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[Peter R.]

Peter R. ) wrote:

> This means you have until that time to
> take off and climb to an altitude where they will pick you up on radar.

I made a mistake here. I should have typed: This means that you have
until that time to take off and make radio contact with Reno approach.

Big difference between that wording and Reno making radar contact, since
it is possible to make radio contact well before radar contact.


--
Peter






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[BTIZ]

I'll let the Reno/Minden pilots answer the particulars for that airport...

but in general, at an airport out side ClassD, you'll need to get an IFR
clearance from the controlling agency, whether that be Reno Approach or
Center. Normally a phone or radio relay through a FSS. My Minden approach
plates tell me Reno Appch Control is in charge.

Remember, a ClassD tower is a VFR tower, he had to get the IFR clearance
from the local IFR ATC facility, rather it be an approach control or Air
Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC).

ok, so I looked up MEV in my approach charts: I only see GPS approaches into
Minden (MEV), the minimum descent altitude is 6220MSL (1494 AGL), so... a
smart minded IFR pilot would not depart into a 300ft ceiling knowing he
could not get back to MEV in an emergency.. Even the ILS approach into RNO
has an 1100ft AGL Decision Altitude, so that would not be a suitable
situation/alternate on a 300ft day. But there is nothing stopping a Part91
IFR pilot from departing into a 300ft overcast in this situation.

As for Radar coverage from ATC.. not an issue, you need to be able to, and
will be expected to fly anywhere without radar coverage. ATC using radar
makes it nicer to run traffic closer together and handle more aircraft than
using the tried and true manual separation methods. ATC will be blocking all
IFR traffic up to the minimum IFR altitude that you are cleared to until
they can see you, and if they cant see you (radar failure or your
transponder failure), then all traffic stays above until you get "found" and
have cleared the area.

Now, the weather issue, snow on the ground? fog in the area (warm air over
cold ground). What is the outside temperature and where is the freezing
level... does the cloud layer go to the freezing level or higher?.. flying
your Musketeer SuperIII into a freezing layer would not be good.

It is difficult to maintain IFR proficiency even down here in LAS single
engine with a Piper Arrow or Bonanza. When the IFR rolls in, the minimum IFR
altitude is well into or above the freezing level. The lowest minimum IFR
altitude (on airways) around the Mustang VOR is 10,000MSL.

I came back VFR from Cal City to VGT at 9,500MSL through the MOAs and the
OAT was 36F. If IFR were required, long way around and minimum IFR altitude
on the airway is 12,000 or 14,000ft.

But getting an instrument rating is a smart thing to do, but not always a
save all.

BT
(former ZBOS ARTCC)

"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
> I'm VFR and have some questions about IFR.
> I've been toying with the idea of pursuing an IFR rating, especially due
> to the recent (uncharacteristic) fog.
> I've only flown real in IMC once.
> I was at a class D airport, and the CFI got clearance before takeoff.
> He got all kinds of instructions for going up through the soup.
>
> I'm wondering how that works at a class E airport, like the one I'm based
> at in Minden, NV.
> For example, if there was real IMC (a fog layer at 300 AGL), would you be
> allowed to take off?
> If so, what would be the procedure?
> How would you ensure separation from other traffic?
> The closest tower is Reno, but they wouldn't be able to get any radar fix
> until you climbed to about 3500' AGL.
>
> Similarly, for landing (assuming a GPS approach is approved, there is no
> ILS, etc).
> What would you do once Reno lost radar contact?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III
>

[Peter R.]

BTIZ ) wrote:

> BT
> (former ZBOS ARTCC)

Really? That's the first time I read you were a former controller in
the few years I have been reading these groups.

I have an additional respect for you, as I tried, but failed, to become
a controller in the late 80s. :)

--
Peter






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[Dan Thompson]

I assume by "fog layer at 300" you mean fog from the ground topping out at
300. Otherwise you would say an "overcast layer at 300."

Either way, you can depart from a Class E (or Class G) untowered airport IFR
with what is called a void time clearance. You call up the approach
facility, over the phone or radio in some cases, and either directly or
relayed through an FSS, and are cleared to take off IFR in a short slot time
that ends at the "void time." In the old days we used to call from a pay
phone at the FBO, then hurry to take off before the clearance expired. Now
we call from the end of the runway on the cell phone when ready. Works like
a champ, and once you see it done it is not as hard as it sounds.

Separation is provided all the way to the ground if it is a true Class E
airport (somewhat rare.) At a Class G airport, separation is not provided
until you enter Class E. While your void time clearance is in effect, ATC
will not allow any IFR traffic into "your" airport. The big sky theory is
your assurance? of separation in Class G.

Landing is pretty much the same way in reverse. You are cleared to execute
the approach before you lose ATC on the radio. It does not matter if they
can see you on radar or not. You call on the phone when you are on the
ground to close your IFR flight plan. Until you do, ATC will hold all
traffic going in or out IFR. Again, it is "your" airport until you cancel
IFR or close your plan.

Hope this answers your questions.


"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
> I'm VFR and have some questions about IFR.
> I've been toying with the idea of pursuing an IFR rating, especially due
> to the recent (uncharacteristic) fog.
> I've only flown real in IMC once.
> I was at a class D airport, and the CFI got clearance before takeoff.
> He got all kinds of instructions for going up through the soup.
>
> I'm wondering how that works at a class E airport, like the one I'm based
> at in Minden, NV.
> For example, if there was real IMC (a fog layer at 300 AGL), would you be
> allowed to take off?
> If so, what would be the procedure?
> How would you ensure separation from other traffic?
> The closest tower is Reno, but they wouldn't be able to get any radar fix
> until you climbed to about 3500' AGL.
>
> Similarly, for landing (assuming a GPS approach is approved, there is no
> ILS, etc).
> What would you do once Reno lost radar contact?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III
>

[Mike Rapoport]

I was based at Minden for several years and still have property there. To
depart MEV IFR you call Reno Approach and get your clearance over the phone.
Be aware of the following limitations for IFR into and out of MEV (and the
rest of the Carson Valley).

The approach minimiums are over 1000'AGL so you certainly can't land with
300' ceilings. The only approaches are GPS.

The approved departure proceedure requires RNP .3nm which means IFR approved
GPS.

There is almost no flyable IMC in airplanes without known ice certification
and radar. There is almost always icing at the MEA and above. The
exception to this is when there are thunderstorms.

The MEAs south of MEV are high. Almost all routes south and west will
require O2.

The east side of the Sierra is a particularly unforgiving place to fly and
there are fatailies in the area virtually every year (or more). The Carson
Valley is better than the Owens Valley to the south but it is not really
suitable for single engine IFR. There is a reason that glider pilots from
all over the world come to Minden! That reason is the powerful weather.

In short, to fly IMC in the area you need GPS, Known Ice, Radar, O2 (and the
ability to climb fast) and should really have a big heavy plane because the
turbulence is so bad.

Mike
MU-2


"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
> I'm VFR and have some questions about IFR.
> I've been toying with the idea of pursuing an IFR rating, especially due
> to the recent (uncharacteristic) fog.
> I've only flown real in IMC once.
> I was at a class D airport, and the CFI got clearance before takeoff.
> He got all kinds of instructions for going up through the soup.
>
> I'm wondering how that works at a class E airport, like the one I'm based
> at in Minden, NV.
> For example, if there was real IMC (a fog layer at 300 AGL), would you be
> allowed to take off?
> If so, what would be the procedure?
> How would you ensure separation from other traffic?
> The closest tower is Reno, but they wouldn't be able to get any radar fix
> until you climbed to about 3500' AGL.
>
> Similarly, for landing (assuming a GPS approach is approved, there is no
> ILS, etc).
> What would you do once Reno lost radar contact?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III
>

[mindenpilot]

> Now, the weather issue, snow on the ground? fog in the area (warm air over
> cold ground). What is the outside temperature and where is the freezing
> level... does the cloud layer go to the freezing level or higher?.. flying
> your Musketeer SuperIII into a freezing layer would not be good.
>

Thanks to all for the responses.
I picked a hypothetical situation.
Actual conditions have actually been just as you described above, but with
fog at the surface, and visiblity at 1/4 SM, so I wouldn't even be able to
see the other end of the runway!

I was citing conditions I saw in both Dallas and the SF Bay area.
Thin layer of clouds (maybe 200 ft thick) at about 300-500 AGL, then
beautiful on top.

I should have been more clear, stating that I wouldn't even be able to get
radio contact with Reno until 3000-3500 AGL.
Currently, I can't even get ATIS until I'm about 3000' AGL.

Anyway, I think you've answered my questions..now I have one more.
Since the only approach in Minden is GPS, does it make sense to get an
IFR-certified GPS?
Anyone have any preferences.
I don't want to put a $10K upgrade in ;-)

Thanks,

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Mike Rapoport]

"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
>> Now, the weather issue, snow on the ground? fog in the area (warm air
>> over cold ground). What is the outside temperature and where is the
>> freezing level... does the cloud layer go to the freezing level or
>> higher?.. flying your Musketeer SuperIII into a freezing layer would not
>> be good.
>>
>
> Thanks to all for the responses.
> I picked a hypothetical situation.
> Actual conditions have actually been just as you described above, but with
> fog at the surface, and visiblity at 1/4 SM, so I wouldn't even be able to
> see the other end of the runway!
>
> I was citing conditions I saw in both Dallas and the SF Bay area.
> Thin layer of clouds (maybe 200 ft thick) at about 300-500 AGL, then
> beautiful on top.
>
> I should have been more clear, stating that I wouldn't even be able to get
> radio contact with Reno until 3000-3500 AGL.
> Currently, I can't even get ATIS until I'm about 3000' AGL.
>
> Anyway, I think you've answered my questions..now I have one more.
> Since the only approach in Minden is GPS, does it make sense to get an
> IFR-certified GPS?
> Anyone have any preferences.
> I don't want to put a $10K upgrade in ;-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III
>
Read my other post. You might want to spend some time talking to Bill Hutt
or someone else who has flown a lot in the area about the utility of flying
IMC in your current airplane. Basically it isn't enough airplane for IMC
flying in that area. Even a heavy twin like a 421 is marginal.

Mike
MU-2

[mindenpilot]

>
> Read my other post. You might want to spend some time talking to Bill
> Hutt or someone else who has flown a lot in the area about the utility of
> flying IMC in your current airplane. Basically it isn't enough airplane
> for IMC flying in that area. Even a heavy twin like a 421 is marginal.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>

Bummer.
On the other hand, this weather is really uncharacteristic.
Last winter, I flew all winter long with very few days that weren't VFR.
On the whole, I would say 90% of the days here are VFR.

Sorry to ask IFR-illiterate questions, but here's more.
A more realistic mission would be flying from Minden to the Bay Area.
Like I said, it's usually VFR in Minden, but there is often fog in the Bay
Area (Santa Rosa, STS).
I don't have IFR plates, but I know STS is pretty flat, and is at sea level
(100').
Not sure about icing conditions, but it's definitely warmer in the winter
than here in Minden.
Does this sound like something that I could handle in my Super III, or do I
need the heavy metal?

Thanks

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[Mike Rapoport]

That is a totally different and much more realistic situation. When the
weather is IMC at Minden, even if the ceiling is 3000AGL, it is unflyable in
a piston single without deice and turbocharging. In the Bay Area, on the
other hand, there is a lot of flyable IMC similiar to SoCal. You get
frequent marine layers only a few hundred feed thick. I didn't say so
earlier but I think that getting the rating is a good idea for most pilots.
It has some utility and it will make you a better pilot in many areas. MEV
is, like you say, almost always VFR. The problem is that to go anywhere you
have to cross mountains or fly very turbulent valleys. You mentioned STS,
before you depart from there in IMC you need to really understand the
departure procedure and what your GPS is going to do at each step. Its
complicated if you don't know when it is going to go stop automatic waypoint
sequencing. Don't ask how I know!

Basically if you can get past Placerville you will be able to fly almost
anywhere in the state with your airplane. The limitations are all over high
terrain because you have to fly high to clear terrain and there is almost
always icing at those altitudes along with lots of turbulence.

BTW you should go to Soar Minden and buy the book "Exploring the Monster".
It is a great book and you will learn a lot about your local weather. It is
my favorite aviation book.

Mike
MU-2





"mindenpilot" > wrote in message
...
> >
>> Read my other post. You might want to spend some time talking to Bill
>> Hutt or someone else who has flown a lot in the area about the utility of
>> flying IMC in your current airplane. Basically it isn't enough airplane
>> for IMC flying in that area. Even a heavy twin like a 421 is marginal.
>>
>> Mike
>> MU-2
>>
>
> Bummer.
> On the other hand, this weather is really uncharacteristic.
> Last winter, I flew all winter long with very few days that weren't VFR.
> On the whole, I would say 90% of the days here are VFR.
>
> Sorry to ask IFR-illiterate questions, but here's more.
> A more realistic mission would be flying from Minden to the Bay Area.
> Like I said, it's usually VFR in Minden, but there is often fog in the Bay
> Area (Santa Rosa, STS).
> I don't have IFR plates, but I know STS is pretty flat, and is at sea
> level (100').
> Not sure about icing conditions, but it's definitely warmer in the winter
> than here in Minden.
> Does this sound like something that I could handle in my Super III, or do
> I need the heavy metal?
>
> Thanks
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III
>

[BTIZ]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> BTIZ ) wrote:
>
>> BT
>> (former ZBOS ARTCC)
>
> Really? That's the first time I read you were a former controller in
> the few years I have been reading these groups.
>
> I have an additional respect for you, as I tried, but failed, to become
> a controller in the late 80s. :)
>
> --
> Peter

Thanx Peter... it does not get out too often.. my background..

Iron Worker, ARTCC (pre 1980), MAJ USAF B-1 (RETIRED), had to go fly instead
of control.. not happy on the ground... Instrument, Commercial ASEL, AMEL,
Glider, and CFI-G
BT

[mindenpilot]

> BTW you should go to Soar Minden and buy the book "Exploring the Monster".
> It is a great book and you will learn a lot about your local weather. It
> is my favorite aviation book.
>
> Mike
> MU-2


Thanks. I'll look into that!

Adam
N7966L
Beech Super III

[BTIZ]

> Anyway, I think you've answered my questions..now I have one more.
> Since the only approach in Minden is GPS, does it make sense to get an
> IFR-certified GPS?
> Anyone have any preferences.
> I don't want to put a $10K upgrade in ;-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
> N7966L
> Beech Super III

If you want to fly IFR into Minden, you'll need a panel mounted IFR
certified GPS, other wise plan the ILS into Reno and drive... but yes.. IFR
in the SAC valley on top of the FOG layer can be fun... but more than once I
had to divert a T-37 from Mather to Placerville (on top of the fog) and wait
it out.. fog and vis were below IFR minimums at Mather.

BT

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Peter R. ) wrote:
>
>> This means you have until that time to
>> take off and climb to an altitude where they will pick you up on radar.
>
> I made a mistake here. I should have typed: This means that you have
> until that time to take off and make radio contact with Reno approach.
>
> Big difference between that wording and Reno making radar contact, since
> it is possible to make radio contact well before radar contact.
>

It means that you have until that time to take off, neither radar or radio
cantact is required by that time.

[Peter R.]

Steven P. McNicoll ) wrote:

> "Peter R." > wrote in message
> ...
> > Peter R. ) wrote:
> >
> >> This means you have until that time to
> >> take off and climb to an altitude where they will pick you up on radar.
> >
> > I made a mistake here. I should have typed: This means that you have
> > until that time to take off and make radio contact with Reno approach.
> >
> > Big difference between that wording and Reno making radar contact, since
> > it is possible to make radio contact well before radar contact.
> >
>
> It means that you have until that time to take off, neither radar or radio
> cantact is required by that time.

Oh, OK, so I was wrong on both counts. :) I guess I have been
building in a healthy departure cushion.




--
Peter






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[gatt]

"mindenpilot" > wrote in message news:VUEJd.1862

> I'm wondering how that works at a class E airport, like the one I'm based
at
> in Minden, NV.
> For example, if there was real IMC (a fog layer at 300 AGL), would you be
> allowed to take off?

Yes. You would file your plan ahead by telephone and depart at a given
time.

The problem would be returning. For example, the airport I fly out of has a
tower, and I can take off with the appropriate clearance, but it doesn't
have an instrument approach so unless the airport is VFR when I return, I
can't land there. That means that to return on IFR, I need to have an
alternate airport(s) with IFR approaches available so if I can't land at my
home base I can safely land nearby (IF the weather meets the published
minimums for that approach.)

-c